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Monday, July 25, 2011

Is LC Morphing to HAES? Part VIII: Can you be? Are You?

HAES = Health At Every Size

It is the brainchild of Dr. Linda Bacon.

Let’s face facts. We’ve lost the war on obesity. Fighting fat hasn’t made the fat go away. And being thinner, even if we knew how to successfully accomplish it, will not necessarily make us healthier or happier. The war on obesity has taken its toll. Extensive “collateral damage” has resulted: Food and body preoccupation, self-hatred, eating disorders, discrimination, poor health... Few of us are at peace with our bodies, whether because we’re fat or because we fear becoming fat.
Health at Every Size is the new peace movement.Very simply, it acknowledges that good health can best be realized independent from considerations of size. It supports people—of all sizes—in addressing health directly by adopting healthy behaviors.
For those who hadn't heard it a bunch of times from my participation on discussion boards, I'll preface this post with my personal story.  After almost becoming anorexic and then bulimic in my late teens, and spending the next 15 or so years yo yo dieting intermittently with binge eating, I again had topped out in the 200-210 lb range wearing my usual "backstop" size 14/16/18 (whatever the biggest size in regular departments were with variation was that limit).  I decided to try Atkins for the first time.  Rapidly dropped around 40 lbs down to a size 8.   For various reasons, I drifted off the diet - never really "broke" it - and in a couple of years time I had gained back the 40 and added a whopping 60+ more!  How can that happen?  Well, one reason was I gained weight differently than I ever had before so that my weight went up far more rapidly than my pants size.  In 2002 I decided to give the Atkins diet a second try.  It worked quite well again and I dropped from 20's down to 12's.  This time with my efforts, however, came some rather frightening health issues that I believe relate to hypoglycemia.  My brother passed away suddenly during this time, and the stress of that period no doubt contributed, but I was experiencing these weird feelings prior to that, often w/o even the slightest exertion and when I did exert some -- e.g. pilates -- there were times I had to stop and sit still waiting for the racing heart to calm down.  Batteries of tests found nothing but I noticed eating a few carbs helped the situation so I ... drifted again off the plan and in a couple of years had put the weight back on along with who knows how many more pounds.  

By this point I reached a size in my life that was physically "disabling".  No, I wasn't disabled, I was still quite active, but my ankles would swell if I was on my feet for even short periods.  I got winded easily.  I was at that point where airplane seats became more than uncomfortable for just me.  Other conveniences a normal sized person takes for granted -- like being able to walk to the bathroom in a reasonably spaced restaurant w/o my ass taking along Morty's toupee -- let alone fitting comfortably in some bathroom stalls, etc. started to become inconveniences for me.   The regain of all that weight and then some was mentally debilitating.  I just couldn't imagine what the point of even trying again was if I was only going to lose weight, gain it back and get even more obese.  I actually had those "conversations with myself"  for well over a year.  I think had I found HAES in 2007, I might still be that morbidly obese person, likely weighing over 300 lbs wearing stretched out 20W pants and Men's 2XL tee shirts.  

You see, aside from the ankles and discomforts, I was otherwise healthy.   My lipids were probably out of whack a bit (they were a little off when I got almost that large the last time, I boycotted the doctor this time), but my BP was normal, I healed quickly and I was rarely sick.  These are benchmarks I hear many rattle off and I agree they are markers pointing towards health.  I was pretty resigned that I would just learn to be a happy, or at least content, fat person because that would be better than going through it all again.  Something -- a picture of myself I did not recognize -- something, I can't even pinpoint the date, I think it was in June 2007, when I just decided that was not me and I was going to do something about it.  I set no goals.  I told nobody but my husband and later my sister, I did not step on a scale or take out a measuring tape.  I just went out and purchased a pair of 18W's of the same style pants I was wearing 20W's and decided to do Atkins induction whenever possible.  And the weight fell off as the sizes went down.  By August vacation I was in 16W's, by January 2008 vacation I was in 14's and by May of that year I could squeeze into the size 10's of the same style/brand.  Sometime in Fall of 08 I fit into my first pair of Lee size 10 jeans that I wear now and that pair is long since in the trash heap from being worn out!  

If there are any lingering suspicions that I'm some sort of lying Agro mole consortium out to bring down low carb nutrition, I ask they read this post on Jimmy's forum:  I want to cry .  It was as shocking to me to have exceeded my wildest hopes size-wize and still see a weight over 200 lbs on the scale.  You might also notice I was a pretty dedicated low carber at the time believing that buckling down on LC would be the answer.  It was not. You can find me participating in the biweekly induction challenges, etc. and really the only thing that budged my weight was the first few weeks of IF before my weight resettled around 10 lbs lighter.  It's been right around that mark for three years now.  I've recomposed a bit and wear smaller sizes on top than I did.  But as my detractors about the net are anxious to point out, I'm still fat!  LOL.

I personally do not believe that this is the best I can do for my health or my looks, even though I'm healthy and capable and strong (like bull!), and however I may look in pictures doesn't reflect how I look in person.   Clothing sizes don't lie, nor, for that matter do the looks I get from men.  Still, I have again shelved the idea of doing another sprint tri for another year as I'll be damned if I'm going to subject my knees to running weighing almost 200 lbs.  

But actually, I think I would make a very good poster chick for the HAES movement.  Even though I've lost probably 100 lbs and many pants sizes, I've screeched to a halt far short of achieving a "normal" body weight.  And, I'm healthy.   Now I'm not trying to say that I'm better than anyone else ... I'll leave that to the low carbers who belittle all the stupid fat people and diabetics who somehow manage to lose weight and control their blood sugar levels eating more than a starch molecule here and there.  What I am saying, however, without reservation, is that one thing I have done IS better.  I have maintained.  And not by yo yo-ing and forever hopping on the next challenge or fad plan, or by binging one month then rededicating the next, rinse, repeat.   It was the one promise or dedication I made to myself this time.  Whatever weight I took off, even if it wasn't some arbitrary goal number, it wasn't going back on.  

If Laura Dolson lost 35 lbs to remain obese to this day and it has improved her health and her weight remains relatively stable.  You know?  More power to her.  Perhaps she should join Bacon's movement, or perhaps she should be up front on her About bio as to this reality.    I'm not belittling her or making fun of her, but I will point out folks who land at About.com looking for info on LC Diets are looking for weight loss advice, plain and simple.  Laura Dolson makes a poor guide in this regard.

Jimmy Moore is fond of saying that he doesn't weigh 410 lbs anymore.  That's great!  But I'll be the first to tell you that I wouldn't be able to "brag" over 100 lbs lost had I not gotten to be 300 lbs in the first place.  At some point, how many pounds a person has lost is MEANINGLESS.  Don't get me wrong -- it is a huge accomplishment to lose a significant amount of weight.  HUGE.  But it is NOT healthy if you are not able to keep it off in some sort of sane fashion.  And I'm not talking about gaining 5 or even 10 lbs over the holidays and tightening up one's eating choices to lose a few for that upcoming swimsuit unveiling.  Surely even at 275 or even 300 lbs he's better off than at 410, but that doesn't make what he's doing healthy to "maintain".  His cholesterol levels indicate metabolic upheaval and he can rationalize that they are "spectacular" because it's all fluffy LDL all he wants.  He's still a relatively young man -- turns just 40 end of this year -- though he looks quite a bit older in my opinion.  Time is on his side ... for now ... but he should listen to those around him who caution him that this will only get harder each time he puts his body through another drastic weight cycle.

Would Linda Bacon approve of this version of HAES?  I would think not.  But you see, despite the protestations of Jimmy and so many of his overweight/obese guests and yo-yo dieters on the Low Carb Conversations podcast, almost to a one they are still pursuing weight loss and still anxious to share their "fabulous results" with readers - when they are losing weight.  Because, you see, when they are in the act of losing, LC is working for them.   In Jimmy's case, when he's not, it's not the diet, it's something cah-rrraaaazzzy going on with his body -- don't look at me now, wait until the next challenge ... I'm healthy!!!   In many other cases the story is similar.  Only we don't get the blow-by-blow of the weight gain.  We get the mea culpa several weeks, months and sometimes, yikes! years ... I put on a *few* pounds, I made *some* bad choices, etc. etc.  All downplayed considerably and ultimately blamed on that super-addictive power of the glucose molecule in its various forms.  LC is where it's at baaaaaaabbbby.  There's no turning back now!

Even Gary Taubes in his Oz appearance boiled it down to this:  Will you lose weight?  Because, you see, you can't get around that Atkins and related LC plans are for weight loss.  Bacon will tell you, despite the fortuitous name similarity to a fave LC food, you can be HAES having your cake and making it with wheat flour and icing it with sugar too!  

AFAIC, LC is *NOT* working for you if you find that you :
  • Fail to lose significant weight at all (far more stories here than are acknowledged)
  • Have plateaued out at a higher than desired weight (Me! - and countless others)
  • Are regaining despite sticking to the plan (there are many stories of this happening to "real" people who are mostly made fun of and accused of not following the diet properly or cutting their carbs to zero, Jimmy, Dana C.)
  • Are regaining because you repeatedly "fall off the wagon" and can't get back on until serious damage has been done requiring a re-commitment (Amy D., at least a dozen members of Jimmy's LLVLC forum I could name w/o even thinking)
  • Are avoiding medications when you are unable to stick to LC but want to keep trying, and trying and trying while your health spirals out of control.
The absolute most dangerous thing Gary Taubes came out with lately is this notion of the hopelessly damaged metabolism nonsense.  That LC is going to be your best last chance for success, and if you fall short you better just get used to your sealed fate.  

I'm all for accepting the realities of falling short.  Indeed I admit to doing so myself ... repeatedly ... and to this day.   In my case, this is made easier by the fact that despite what the scale says, I'm looking pretty good these days and of a "normal" size.  But that also makes it harder for me to muster the determination ... and that dirty word in LC circles -- WILLPOWER ... to make another push.  It's been brewing lately and I've always been an all-or-nothing type.  If I can boast over anything these days it's that I found a way around this personality trait to get off the "diet-mentality" thing (and I'll address the WOE thing soon ...) and learned to tread water to maintain the status quo after achieving success.  I wish I could bottle that secret!  LOL.  It would sell out over Metabasol any day!  Double-LOL.

So now in closing, let's answer those questions in this post title.  

1.  Can you be healthy at EVERY size?  No.  Each of us has a size at which adiposity is contributing more or less to metabolic derangement and health risk.  There's no getting around this, and despite what doctors say, there's really no singular or even multiple BMI or absolute weight cut-off.  Hypertension, insulin resistance, lipotoxicity, impaired glucose tolerance, frank diabetes ... to name a few.   The reality is that some can get away with a much higher degree of adiposity before the adverse effects set in (I appear to have been one of those to an extent) ... others cannot.  File it in the "it's not fair" folder and get on with it.  For you, weight loss IS imperative if you are to manage your health w/o medications if you find yourself with elevated or depressed this or that levels.  There's no getting around it.  That Jane Jones is healthy at 400 lbs is IRRELEVANT to you!  And before I move on from this, there are other measures of health besides CVD risk, lipids and blood sugar levels.  Getting frequent bronchitis, pneumonia, suffering gout, shingles, hypothyroid attacks,  yeast or UT infections, edema, infertility, acne, arthritis, boils, etc. etc. etc.   These all reflect and impact health.   Despite the claims that VLC cures all, the blogs and journals and such tell another story.   

2.  Are you healthy?  This is for each of us to answer.  For me, the answer is yes.  But I feel I can still improve my health by decreasing my adiposity further.   The revelations of health issues many LC'ers share despite claims of stellar health indicate many of these folks either aren't healthy or they could also be in a state of better health.

Here's where I stand on all of this.  We all have to be honest and accountable to ourselves and our God if we so believe.  I do believe the "LC for health" mantra is WAY overstated and misleading.  No, sat fat is not inherently fattening or going to cause CVD.  This does not mean that buttering your fatty steak is a healthy practice either.  Low carbers get diseases like the rest of us.  Atkins highlighted a celeb gossip reporter in his first book.  She died at 69 of cancer.  Low carbers get fibroids, skin cancer (both Eades), PCOS, prediabetes, pneumonia, infections, viruses, degenerative arthritis, etc. ad infinitum.  

While you're thinking outside the USDA Food Pyramid box (as if that was really the cause of the problem to begin with), think outside the LC Dogma single cube on a Rubic's cube.  



101 comments:

  1. I couldn't agree more with pretty much everything you are saying.

    And about Jane Jones being healthy at 400 pounds. For how long? What if Jane wants to have a baby? Does obesity interfere with fertility (by definition, this is not what we call "fitness".) And what of the expense and the risk of a 400 pound woman getting pregnant? There was an article in the NY Times about how much money it costs to produce a baby from an obese woman. It's about $200K, as opposed to $13K for a normal weight woman.

    I disagree with everything Bacon says. As far as losing the war against obesity - what is she talking about? The Obesity epidemic is about 20-30 years old! We have not yet begun to fight, I say.

    One question I have for you. I don't keep up with the on line soap opera that is Jimmy Moore's life. His posts are too long and verbose and full of baayyybeeees for me to read in full. So can you explain what you mean by Jimmy's cholesterol levels indicating "metabolic upheaval." I'm interested in this because my cholesterol levels are very high, something I've been inclined to dismiss because my mother's and my aunt's were high as well - and they lived to past 90.

    Also I have developed hypothyroidism in the last few years. I can't blame it on low carbing, but I wonder.

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  2. This is a timely post, in that the past week my weight inched up from 199 to 203. While I'm not panicking, it was a bit disappointing after several months of fairly steady weight loss (drop a few pounds, maintain for a month, drop a few pounds, etc).

    There may be any number of reasons for it. Perhaps I ate more than I have been, or perhaps there is a bit of muscle gain in there somewhere, or maybe the recent lack of exercise caught up with me, or perhaps the scale isn't being completely honest (digital scales can be annoyingly unreliable). Or maybe my body has settled in after adapting to the changes I've made over the months. I dunno.

    But it's just a reminder to me that managing my weight is an ongoing task, one that I'll be on for the rest of my life. The "I reached my goal, now I'm finished" mindset is what keeps many people on the roller coaster. So I'll make some minor adjustments and see how it goes. Mostly I'll just start exercising regularly again, which I had just started before the scale started to tip the other way.

    Some LC/paleo proponents pitch the diet as the way we were meant to eat, and I think that many adherents believe that the basic rules of weight management can thus be thrown out the window, because the reason those other diets didn't work is because they weren't our 'intended' diet. So when they plateau or hit a snag, it seems to catch them by surprise and they may become disillusioned. Or worse, they grit their teeth and soldier on, because they have so invested themselves mentally and psychologically that to admit defeat now would be devastating.

    We need to go into any diet with the understanding that the trip will not be a smooth one, and that at some point we may need to step back and reassess what we're doing, and make some changes in order to continue towards a goal.

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  3. I dunno - I can't help but think that many obese people would lose weight on the HAES plan - accepting your body as it is, eating what you want when you want it (and you're not going to want Oreos and Doritos forever), stopping when you are satisfied, and moving for pleasure? Sounds like a formula for achieving a healthy weight to me.

    And in a Prevention article I read recently about a spa that implements the HAES plan, people were losing weight - a small sample size, of course.

    But I can see where a HAES approach might lead to weight gain for someone who usually starves herself and/or works out obsessively - but that could be a good thing. (Gain 10 pounds but lose the diet obsession, sounds good to me.) Or there could be weight gain for a person who doesn't actually, honestly embrace body acceptance or the legality of all foods - in such a case I guess self-sabotage is probably guaranteed.

    Here's the Prevention article, if anyone is interested:

    http://www.prevention.com/health/weight-loss/weight-loss-tips/weight-loss-how-to-lose-weight-without-dieting/article/c85d32a8838d0310VgnVCM10000030281eac____

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  4. I think that one of CarbSane's points is that HAES became an acceptable option for many low-carbers only after they found themselves either unable to reach a target weight, or unable to maintain once they got there. Instead of considering that perhaps LC was only part of a larger strategy instead of the One True Path, they decided to shift the goal posts.

    As someone who has severely restricted sugary snacks and junk food, I can attest that in my own experience, I have not gotten tired of Doritos and Oreos! I have restricted or eliminated them via conscious effort because I understand that they are a hindrance to meeting my diet and health goals. I enjoy the occasional dessert but if I gave in to my "wants" I'd be eating them every day.

    Personally I don't see HAES as a plan. I see it as a way to rationalize quitting.

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  5. @ CarbSane

    Great post...thank you.

    I note that you mention the (unmentionable) issue of 'willpower'. This is a very important acknowledgement that people wanting to lose weight 'for life' need to make; namely, at various junctures in your day to day life, you will need to say 'no' or 'wait' to your impulses, or to the seductive pull of the obesogenic environment.

    This is especially important for those folk that have hit a weight loss plateau, or who are trying to lose those 'last few pounds'. There is no doubt that a sensible eating plan will often strip off huge chunks of weight of itself (as per initial weight losses for Atkins dieters)...but as you get lighter, your energy requirements drop even further (this is NOT 'starvation mode' - this is the inevitable adaptive response of the typical human body), and this often means that further weight loss will require a more deliberate and, dare I say it, 'willfull' approach to weight loss (e.g. portion control, calorie cognizance, exercise etc.). For greater rewards, you need greater magnitudes of effort...just as with every other venture in life.

    Also, in addition to the list of obesity-related health issues that you cited, can I also add 'lack of mobility'; this is a huge issue for many large people, and often works synergistically with metabolic issues to further discourage physical activity (and encourage sedentarism and its associated co-morbidities).

    @ Steph

    I have some sympathy with your yearning for a less 'contrived' approach to weight loss; but IME, almost all of my obese clients got that way following just the approach you described as the solution to obesity (i.e. "accepting your body as it is, eating what you want when you want it...stopping when you are satisfied, and moving for pleasure"). Of course, this doesn't mean that there's anything intrinsically pathological about your suggested strategy (in fact, it seems ideal in psychological terms at least); it's just that the environment in developed countries is so obesogenic, that deliberate and contrived ways of eating are the only feasible way of counteracting the pull of the environment.

    Would that it were another way, but it aint.

    Cheers
    Harry

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  6. I think you raise an excellent point there Steph. If some of these LC-philes were to actually adopt a *true* HAES approach -- rather than many seeming to try endlessly to lose weight and settle for "better health" -- they might just at least stablilize weight. I'm all for whatever gets folks over that diet obsession. I wish that freedom on everyone whether or not it leads to some ideal weight. I see a lot of WOE-obsession replacing diet obsession too.

    I do take exception, however, to Bacon's overarching defeatist message.

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  7. Thanks Harry! You raise an issue I was trying to get at as far as one of the impetuses for me to lose the weight in 2007. And I wasn't even that bad. It was the getting winded, feet hurting, ankles swelling, etc. I was I guess at that "verge" of obesity being truly immobilizing. Chaffing ain't fun and that is minor compared to the sum total of issues the more obese deal with daily. I had sciatic problems when I was at a high weight in 2000-ish. Putting on my shoes was a chore, and I have a ninja looking scar on the top of my right foot from falling off a chair trying to change a light bulb. It's amazing I didn't break bones that time!

    Long story short, to this day -- although I run up and down stairs, can hop up into and jump down from my hubby's truck bed, etc. -- I still find myself sitting down at social events or leaning when teaching out of habit. Humans were not meant to be sedentary and I don't care how good one's checkup results are, if you can't manage basic daily functions because of sheer size, your weight is NOT healthy.

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  8. Tonus, good point about Oreos, etc. Bad examples on my part - for some of us, those manufactured foods are likely always going to mess with our "enough" switches.

    I think HAES could well lead to weight loss, though, when coupled with some restrictions on processed foods. I found the discussion on "food reward" over at Whole Health Source interesting in that regard.

    As for VLC, it ain't HAES, unless folks actually crave hamburger fried in coconut oil and Quest bars, day in and out.

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  9. Harry, you're right, of course, eating intuitively is very different in today's food environment than it would have been 50 years ago. Some contriving is likely necessary.

    CS re: Bacon's defeatist attitude, I would be curious to see a study on how many folks in the HAES program do wind up reeducing and maintaining, vs staying at a high weight or even gaining.

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  10. @ Carb Sane

    I totally agree with you, I would have agreed with the HAES idea when I was in my 20's, I was overweight most of my entire life and was comfortable with my size which was between 265 to 275 lbs and being in that range for a number of years. After I turned 40 I started to gain more weight and started to have health problems culminating with being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at age 50. The problem with HAES is if an overweight or obese person can achieve good health with the HAES approach, will it work as a person gets older or gains more weight as I did.

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  11. Steph, you make good points about self-acceptance perhaps being the first step towards weight loss (for some) but I don't think that that is what Bacon is saying. I'm taking her literally, and at her word: Healthy at Every Size. Sorry, no. To me words mean something and you cannot be healthy at every size.

    "Each of us has a size at which adiposity is contributing more or less to metabolic derangement and health risk. There's no getting around this...."

    Yep.

    Question is, what is worse? Staying at a certain obese weight, or gaining and losing 70 pounds repeatedly?

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  12. Harry said: "For greater rewards, you need greater magnitudes of effort...just as with every other venture in life."

    This, in a nutshell, is one of the reason that Taubes's notion of accepting the plateau once you've reached because that's all the weight your going to lose makes me absolutely nauseous! I guess striving to for mediocrity turns my stomach ...

    Yes, if you're not willing to put forth any more effort than you have been, then he's right; however, I know that the we as a species are able to do so much more than what we think we can.

    I've seen a one-legged bodybuilder, a powerlifter who has one arm and one leg, a woman with no arms drive a car with her feet!

    So, I just refuse to believe that folks can't lose more once they hit a plateau. Will it be easy? NO! Will it take time? Of course. How much?

    Well, let me paraphrase Harry's quote with one that I've read in many old school strength courses and books: "The results you achieve will be in direct proportion to the effort you've applied."

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  13. Oh, I forgot to mention that, thanks for my mom's genes, I was one of those "healthy" but obese guys. Even when I weighed over 300 pounds, I never had high BP, blood sugar issues, elevated cholesterol, etc.

    My doctors would all tell me that I was strong as a horse, but that I, of course, needed to lose weight. Actually, the major health issue I had when I was obese was my deteriorating joint health and lack of flexibility, which is why I say that no one can be optimally healthy at every size.

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  14. Hi ejazz: Another good point here -- if one is more careful to keep weight down when it is easier when young (and when habits are formed and reinforced) you are two steps ahead: 1. Even if a few tweaks are needed as you gain with age, you're already at least in the mindset of watching one's weight with good habits, and 2. You have that buffer which you didn't have, so that whatever weight you gained after 40 would have likely been benign instead of putting you over the "diabetic edge".

    Great points Muata!

    I re-read again two things on the HAES website in light of the comments by many here.

    Eating in a flexible manner that values pleasure and honors internal cues of hunger, satiety, and appetite.

    This is how I got truly obese post LC stint 1 to begin with. My binge days were long behind me. In a way I thought I was eating "normally" in many ways.

    Finding the joy in moving one’s body and becoming more physically vital.

    I'm hearing the Squeeze song "Black Coffee in Bed" -- "the joy and the pain". At a certain size, there is far more pain in movement than joy.

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  15. Muata, you're misunderstanding what Taubes said. He was not talking about "plateaus". What he said was that the proper diet will help us become as lean as we can be, but not necessarily as lean as we’d like to be. So if you've lost all your fat but still want to weigh less, what would you have people do? Starve till their losing muscle tissue?

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  16. I still cannot fathom how you would stay fat on a LC diet....seriously. Or gain back while doing it all correctly.
    And sorry, for me that food pyramid IS a killer, so yes, in fact that was the problem to begin with.

    While you point out many interesting issues on your blog, I am starting to get a little annoyed with the whole "LC doesn't really help anyone or is really good for anyone and they're all closing their eyes to it" thing. The truth is that it DOES work miracles for some people (myself included).
    I understand that you want to be sort of a counter weight (no pun intended) to the whole "LC is fabulous, oops, I'm still obese, I better eat 500 eggs for breakfast" thing, but I often feel like a freak reading your stuff. As if it's really weird or wrong for me to be insanely healthy and stick-thin on a LC diet.
    As if the truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle.

    I am sure I'm not voicing my feelings correctly, I just can't put my finger on it. And I am sorry about that. Hopefully you get the gist of what I am trying to say.
    I guess I want to find a blog/person that recognizes that the truth is somewhere in the middle. No more extremes or "them vs me" or "LC vs USDA".
    The truth probably is that for most people, who are not professional athletes, it IS a good idea to reduce carb intake, but it probably isn't necessary to reduce it as extremely as the Atkins diet or VLC.
    Anyway, this doesn't have a point and I'm not trying to make one. Just rambling. :)

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  17. @mhb: Taubes is talking about that ultimate plateau where folks HAVEN'T lost all of their excess fat. As lean as we can be? According to him that's my current weight and the current weights of all those still overweight/obese folks touting low carb.

    I get emails every so often from folks who thought they were stuck diligently doing LC and bought into Taubes' pronouncements. Since switching things up a bit they are again losing weight. There are also a few members here with similar experiences.

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  18. @mhb - No, I understand Taubesian BS very well, and here's the problem with his hypo; first, how does the obese person know when they've hit the lowest weight their supposedly wrecked metabolism will allow? How is one supposed to know the difference between a plateau and "that's it you can' t lose more"?

    Second, this is Taubes's way of explaining away the major plateaus and the need to be more vigilant and consistent is to accept mediocrity and believe that you are not in control. I'm sorry but playing the victim is a sure fire way of not reaching your fat loss or body recomposition goals. As the quote says, "whether you think you or you can' t, you' re right!"

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  19. Ummm Layla, I don't get where you think I've said it doesn't work. For me it worked for a good 100 lbs which is nothing to sneeze at. You'll have to go ask folks like Laura Dolson and "scall0way" and Jimmy, for that matter, how they remain significantly overweight if you don't believe it. You might also go ask a woman by the name of Mary Titus who goes by black57 on Jimmy's LLVLC forum how she regained all her initial LC weight losses despite remaining LC. (And has relost some again doing IF).

    It works for a lot of people. It has no better track record for maintenance, however. But it doesn't work for all people. I especially note that those who are not considerably overweight tend to get frustrated by lack of losses after an initial 5 lbs or such.

    I wouldn't say you're a freak, but if you lost considerable weight to truly thin you are in the minority amongst low carbers. Perhaps you can join the Swedes on the next cruise ;)

    I'd like to think I try to find that middle. Only perhaps b/c there are so many rah rah LC is the deliverance blogs/voices already, this one tends to be contrarian more often than not.

    For me, I reached at least an interim limit with VLC. I've been holding upping the carbs for almost a year now so I'm going to -- gasp! -- give the old VLC another go at it! Perhaps my metabolism has sprung back from the deep LC sleep or my appetite may be low again doing it.

    This series of posts, however, is focusing on the fact that many of the prominent voices promoting it as a solution are not achieving the degree of success they offer out as "bait". Hope that makes sense.

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  20. * Correction *

    Ford's quote should read: "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."

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  21. @Carbsane

    "It has no better track record for maintenance";
    "if you lost considerable weight to truly thin you are in the minority amongst low carbers."

    I'm wondering what you're basing these statements on? And please don't tell me it's from comments you read in forums and on blogs, because I can say the same thing for the opposite.

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  22. @Muata - so if a person reaches the stage where the only way to lose more weight is to eat less and less, a semi-starvation diet, do you think that's a healthy and sustainable way to live? I think that's what Taubes is discouraging people from trying to do.

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  23. mhb,

    When you look at the long-term (i.e., 2-3 years or more) clinical trials comparing low carb diets to other types of diets, low-carb diets do not fare any better than others for long term weight maintenance.

    Also, when you look at the composition of people in the National Weight Control Registry, a very small minority are low carbers. If low carb was so great for long term maintenance, you would likely see a better representation in the NWCR.

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  24. mhb,

    At what level to you consider a diet "semistarvation"? Did you know that some people consume only 1500 calories or so on low carb diets? That is a pretty low amount of calories. Would you consider that semistarvation?

    Okinawans have subsisted on a <2000 calorie per day diet for many years, and live quite healthy. Would you consider that semistarvation?

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  25. Thanks James ... I was just going to bring up the NWCR. Atkins has been around for almost 30 years, and it has experienced several "revivals" and a huge boom. In The New Atkins book, the authors make the claim that folks lose more weight and keep it off but that claim is not supported by the evidence. Burden of proof, Lee (please don't play games) is on the claimant. Time and again, in fact, LC shows better results up to ~6mo followed by significant regain. And IF it were better in the long term then the NWCR would have a much better showing for all of this as there's nothing keeping all these success stories out of there and if memory serves Atkins site even encouraged folks to sign up.

    As to your comment to Muata, that's the problem. It's NOT a semi-starvation diet. You could also always move more.

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  26. JK, Ok, I'll accept your first point. In other words, people can maintain weight loss as well on low carb as on any other diet.

    Your second point doesn't hold water. Just because low carbers are in the minority does not indicate anything about how successful or not LC is. It just MIGHT be because the majority has bought into what the government has been promoting for the last 30-40 years, that a low fat/low calorie diet is the only way to go.

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  27. Give me a real life LC example of what you're talking about mhb.

    I want to see/read about a person, LC or not, that was morbidly obese and had lost so much weight that to lose any more they had to starve themselves ...

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  28. JK, you can't put a number to a semi-starvation diet without know a person's current weight, height, level of activity, skeletal frame, etc. But I would say it's any level of calories where you're not getting enough nutrients to sustain you body in at a healthy level.

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  29. Muata, you've heard of anorexia, haven't you?

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  30. mhb - I'm sorry ... I didn't answer your questions. Do I think a person should continue to eat less and less to lose weight once they reach a certain point?

    Well, that depends on the person and his/her overall goals. Depending on how much body fat the person has, I would probably encourage them to do something that Taubes doesn't: move more!

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  31. Yes I have, but I thought that we were talking about morbidly obese dieters, who is the target audience for Taubes's hypo ...

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  32. Funny thing James, a formerly almost 400 lb guy used to argue vociferously against calories and in favor of Taubes' theories on weight loss. He lost like 60 lbs in a very short period of time but posted in his journal that he was "surprised" he had only averaged under 1200 cal/day (this was logged into FitDay over 3 months so this was a pretty long average). From Sept 09-March 10 he lost 80 lbs. I notice he took over 14 months more to lose another 20 lbs even though he was still over 300 lbs for most of that time. Wonder why ...

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  33. Muata, I do believe in CICO and I do believe that if a person reduces calories enough and/or moves more they can get down to any weight they desire. What I'm saying is that any weight they desire may not be the healthy weight for them. IMO, that's what Taubes was saying - the leanest you CAN be [getting there and staying there while maintaining good health] may not be as lean as you WANT to be.

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  34. @mhb - What does that mean? Lean as I want to be? Is that 15%, 12%, 10% BF? Is Taubes talking about folks who want to attain sub 10% BF levels?

    This is the problem with throwing out hypos, and acting as if there's real science to support it.

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  35. About this "wrecked metabolism" thing, glad it was mentioned 'cos it give me the opp'ty to give you my N=1 experience.

    When I gained 16 pounds over winter of 2011, I went back to low-carbing to lose. Couldn't. Now, this is one of those Taubes' mantras, and don't ask me to look it up, I won't, but I distinctly remember that Taubes (and I don't think he's the only low-carber who does) bangs on that it gets progressively harder and harder to lose weight on LC because of your "wrecked metabolism." You become progressively more insulin resistant as you age, or eat those demon carbs, or something.

    Which I believed. I kept low-carbing and not losing weight until my back was up against a wall, at which point, I had no other choice but to practice ELMM and CICO.

    Well, 3 (or is it 4?) months of these two fraudulent theories :) and my wrecked metabolism has somehow managed to shed 14 pounds.

    Wassup with that?

    Isn't Taubes The Prophet?

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  36. @Muata - it simply means wanting to be leaner than wherever a healthy diet gets you to. I'd like to have a body like Christie Brinkley but there's no way I'd get there without lot of starvation, liposuction and surgery. :)

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  37. I assume we're talking about reasonable versus unreasonable goals, or perhaps healthy goals versus goals that endanger our health.

    I am 5'11" tall and around 200lbs at the moment. I can get to 190lbs and probably 180lbs with only mild-to-moderate changes in my diet and lifestyle, and be fit and healthy. I might be able to get to 140lbs, but I would probably have to starve and/or overwork myself, and I would be sacrificing muscle and organ tissue in addition to (and perhaps in place of) body fat.

    If my desire was to get to 140lbs without concern for how I got there, then in that case the leanest I CAN be would not be as healthy as becoming as lean as I WANT to be.

    Is that what you are referring to?

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  38. mhb, I think this is where we differ. I don't want to have the body of anyone else, especially a cosmetically altered celebrity.

    I want to have the strongest and leanest body my genes and age will allow. And this will involve much more than just diet, so, again, I don't understand what you or Taubes mean by as "lean as you can be"?

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  39. Also, I think that Taubes gets a pass because he's an ectomorph; he's never been obese a day in his life. I'm sure that his "current" definition of lean is a far cry from what I would consider lean, which I think is ironic since he did some boxing back in the day.
    So, mhb, maybe that's why I don't get it.

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  40. Taubes on plateauing, see this link:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=good+calories+bad+calories&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=-T4vTs-wJ6Pi0QGF-8ShAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=plateau&f=false

    Shorter version: Metabolism and energy expenditure adjust to new, low caloric intake. In short: caloric restriction is bad for you. Caloric restriction damages your metabolism.

    @muata, mention of Taubes' boxing set me to searching, and I found this, which bears reading in its entirety:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=thin-body-of-evidence-why-i-have-do-2011-05-16

    I found this part particularly funny:

    “I asked Gary about his family's diet. He answered cagily, but he implied that his wife has resisted putting their two kids on Atkins. I think that's sensible, and Gary, when in his critical rather than celebratory mode, probably does, too....”

    Although the review is negative, IMO the writer was altogether too kind to Taubes, probably out of fear. Why does he say that Taubes thinks it's “sensible” not to put his kids on Atkins? Why? I think he wants to do exactly that, but, like most women, Mrs. Taubes is the one who calls the shots at home with the kids.

    I think people wimp out on Taubes. Taubes can be quite intimidating, and I don't mean physically. He's a very smart guy, he has a degree in physics, and he can really shoot the shizzle. Disagree with him and you risk being buried in a ton of syllables.

    Muata, I don't accept the premise of your exchange with “mbh” which is that people lose weight by LC dieting. They lose weight by creating an energy deficit. When people reach a plateau they should have a reckoning with themselves: do they want to cut back calories, or increase exercise levels? If they don't want to do either, then yeah, accept what you are. But the main issue is: it's the calories, not the carbs. OK?

    Back to Taubes, anybody who thinks that he thinks calories are important must be living in another universe. At least read the summary on p. 454 for a refutation of this.

    BTW, I have estimated Taubes' daily caloric intake as over 3,000 calories. No wonder he weighs more than he wants to. He eats too much.

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  41. Diana, I don't know what part of my exchange made you think that I thought it was the carbs not the calories? That carbs vs calories boat left for me back in 2004 ...

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  42. One of the main reason I post here is to help folks realize that it's calories are king ... so, I surely don't want to be confused on this issue. Also, I mentioned Taubes's boxing background because he alluded it to it on one of his interviews with Jimmy ...

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  43. @Diane - Regarding your link to Taubes on plateauing, Taubes was actually quoting Ancel Keys there:
    "'Eventually, calorie balance is re-established at a new (low) plateau of body weight and the calorie deficit is zero,' as Keys explained."

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  44. Muata, I recognize that you weren't shilling for LC. My comment was that the exchange itself re:plateaus and Taubes was distorted by a bias that there's validity to the LC theory. Just an offhand comment, YMMV. At this point I am so allergic to LC that I'm a little....oversensitive. Please forgive.

    "mhb" - I recognize that Taubes was quoting from Keys. He was quoting APPROVINGLY, as use of the word "as" indicates. "as Keys explained."

    Look, the bone of contention isn't that plateaus exist. Everyone agrees that they do. What we are discussing is why they exist, and whether people are better off accepting a plateau that is fatter than they might otherwise be. Now, continue to deny the existence of the Central Dogma of Low Carb dieting, which is that calories don't matter, carbs/insulin is the thing, neatly summarized on page 454 of GCBC. I shall continue to point that out any opportunity that I can.

    Back to plateauing and the LC yo-yo crowd, if they continue to eat thousands of calories per day of protein and fat, then they really don't know what they might plateau at, were they to control their caloric intake, and move more. It's dishonest to dismiss something you haven't really tried.

    And if doing either represents a terrible stress, then don't. But for those of us who are willing to give CICO and ELMM an honest and consistent go, it works.

    And scientifically, as CarbSane & Krieger have tirelessly pointed out, there is no scientific evidence for low-carb claims. No, Krieger didn't say "In other words, people can maintain weight loss as well on low carb as on any other diet." He said that the macronutrient proportions don't matter as long as you create an energy deficit with diet and exercise. Not the same thing at all.

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  45. sorry, I'm tired and left out the word "you" in this sentence: "Now,you continue to deny the existence of the Central Dogma of Low Carb dieting..."

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  46. In your posting title you asked Are You?
    Here's my input on that question. It appears that I am.
    Background information: I've always had a weight issue, but looking back at childhood pictures I now consider those issues more in the mind of my mother and I rather than in reality. I'm 42, 5'3'" have a BMI of 28.95 (according to the Wii this morning) and weigh 11st 9lbs (163lbs). I'm an American living in England these last 17 years. I've had two kids 7 years apart. My youngest is 5. I grew up on a farm, I was a chef for many years and am now a Food Technology teacher. Food is part of the framework of my life. Reason for this info: I don't consider it a surprise that I struggle with my weight.
    I've pretty much always exercised in one form or another. The only two major health issues that I've had in the last three years have nothing to do with weight. Shingles and I've just had an ovarian cyst removed 7 weeks ago (damn thing tried to kill me). After both incidents I went to the doctors to get my bloods tested because frankly these things can throw you for a loop. Both times the blood work came back fine and both doctors were of the opinion that I was in perfect health and the BMI is only a guideline. As one Doctor said, 'The average height of a man is 5'9", that doesn't make a man that is 6'2" abnormal'
    I don't have any other health issues and now that I've come out of the surgery recovery, feel great.
    I've had some success with LC diet (20lbs starting in January), but it wasn't working completely for me and I stalled in April. But I believe I was eating too many calories. Post surgery I'm eating carbs again, but still avoiding processed and sugary foods. And my weight is steady and am losing a bit again.
    Childbirth and the shingles and the cyst have taught me is that, you only do the best you can do and you may feel great and 'be healthy' but life is apt to throw you a zinger. Eat and exercise to make yourself resilient. Extremes in all things (types of eating, drink, drugs, exercise) may be interesting but from my point of view should be avoided. But I also know that some of us can't avoid, mainly because of how our brains work.
    So in summary I am healthy at my weight, was healthy at my heaviest and lowest, but 'health' isn't totally in our control. Wish it was.

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  47. Great comments FT. I've known people who have been in "perfect health" diagnosed suddenly with life-threatening conditions. And then I'm sure we all know one relative or neighborhood legend who practiced every vice and lived to be 90. The best we can do is ... the best we can do. As I hurtle towards 50 I'm interested in being able to maintain as much function as long as possible. Facing disability for my Mom this past year has been a real mind-frig for me re-evaluating some things.

    What worries me a bit about the HAES movement is that it is clear that excess weight negatively impacts health *at some point* (what point being highly individual) -- so this notion that *EVERY* size is equally healthy is simply not true.

    On the LC-for-health front I see way too many unhealthy habits promulgated to accept that it is even the healthiest way those who advocate it could be eating (in the long term) let alone healthy for everyone.

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  48. @Diana - "Now, continue to deny the existence of the Central Dogma of Low Carb dieting, which is that calories don't matter"

    Nope, I've never denied that calories matter, as I've stated a number of times in other CS blog posts and on this one as well (scroll up to my comment at July 26, 2011 2:35 PM). And any low carber who's read the likes of Atkins, Eades, Bowden and others should know that calories matter, too. But I also believe that the metabolic effect of eating low carb and forcing your body to burn fat instead of carbohydrates is equally important, as well as the health benefits you get from eating LC and the feeling of satiety after eating a meal.

    I know you are under the impression that all low carbers believe that calories don't matter and only carbs do but that is not the case. Frankly, while I appreciate most of what Taubes wrote, I do believe he did a disservice by trying to give that impression (although I don't really believe he meant it as literally as everyone takes it), and most professionals who write about low carb diets also caution about watching calories.

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  49. @mhb: YOU are not debating in good faith. Clearly you have not read/listened to the various things Taubes has been saying for the past year or so.

    He's not talking about plateaus. On one of his blog posts (there aren't many, go read) he discusses "correcting" things. He's telling people they f'ed themselves up and if they can't lose more weight on LC that's the best they can do. There's a whole thread on that here: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=417334&page=1&pp=15
    Sorry, but Laura Dolson can clearly lose weight without "starving". Also on his blog he says it's carb restriction not calories that produce weight loss. In a recent print interview (Fat Head I believe) he claimed that cheese and nuts stall because there must be something about insulin because he wants everyone to forget about calories. In a lecture he used the word gluttony to claim you can be a fat and protein glutton and not gain weight. He's said point blank that fat has NO impact on weight. Eades used to acknowledge calories. But he's advocating tucking butter under chicken leg skin and wallowing in lard to get into ketosis to become slim. Where's Bowden these days countering all of this crap anyway? Heck, Taubes now even claims that protein has nothing to do with satiety, it's fat that satiates. If it did, then all of these low carbers who eat VLC/HF diets would become magically stick thin.

    Nobody is talking about unreasonable expectations. We're talking reasonably normal body weight for the most part. Taubes would have me believe I should not even try to look for ways to shed my remaining excess fat, because since VLC doesn't do it magically, that's the best I can do.

    You are welcome to contribute here, but I ask that you please do so (a) under the internet name you use elsewhere (or ID yourself), and (b) without wasting folks time trying to present low carb advocates as anything but arguing AGAINST CICO and ELMM. That's the whole thing about Taubes' *alternate* hypothesis.

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  50. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  51. @Diana: I don't think Muata is disagreeing with you on LC Dogma. Seems rather he's agreeing and has moved past it -- after losing weight but plateauing -- and ultimately achieved a leaner body.

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  52. @Carbsane - "YOU are not debating in good faith."
    I honestly don't know what you mean by that. My comments are all based on what I believe and what I've read and my opinions of what I've read. I've read Taubes' WWGF and a few blogs by him or about him as well as many others by low carb bloggers. I don't stalk Taubes' online and I don't memorize by heart everything he has ever said.

    "He's not talking about plateaus." Yes, I know that and said so to Muata when I was responding to one of his comments (see my comment at July 26, 2011 11:50 AM).

    "I ask that you please do so (a) under the internet name you use elsewhere" MHB are my real initials. I post on two forums (LLVLC & Active Low Carbers) as marilynb. That's all I post under. I read on other forums but don't post.

    "without wasting folks time trying to present low carb advocates as anything but arguing AGAINST CICO and ELMM." Here I disagree with you entirely. Most of the low carb advocates I've read do believe that calories matter. I gather, then, that you just don't want me commenting if I don't agree with you.

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  53. If you've read his blogs then you are clearly not comprehending what he's saying. With Eades you are apparently remembering long ago writings and ignoring his more current ones that are being espoused in LC communities.

    Thank you for clearing up your identity. The posts here seemed so siimilar to those of leemack over on ALC forum and I apologize for that mixup.

    I must say I'm disappointed to see you are marilynb but pull out the old specious "stalking" nonsense. That is ridiculous. If anyone stalks Taubes it might be his man crush by the name of Ted Hutchinson. That guy listens and links to just about every word Taubes has written or uttered on every corner of the web. Engage him on LLVLC forum sometime and see if you can get him to admit calories count. LOL. Good luck with that!

    But I guess I'm out of line for actually reading/listening to what he links to and commenting on it? And I guess I should apologize for having a good memory as well. :( When I first heard Taubes' theories I argued against them based on the science. I was hounded by members for "not reading the book" -- even though I had read various synopses, would argue against the theory as presented in a post, etc., that wasn't good enough. I needed to read the book. So I did. And I went to the references and they didn't support the stuff he wrote. And I listened and I read because folks claimed over on LLVLC forum and in comments here that I wasn't understanding what he was saying so I listened again. I've had folks argue here that gluttony doens't mean what it means to 99.9% of the other English speaking people on the planet. Stuff like that. It is tiring and old.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't comment here. If you're saying your impression of LC dogma is that calories count, then that's fine. Why the alternate hypothesis then? Why the treatises on "metabolic advantage" proclaiming certain calories don't count after all b/c we won't store them as fat? But now we know that's your position. You are welcome to comment here. But please don't attack folks based on your misinterpretations of LC dogma. Certainly don't make us waste our time tracking down all the quotes showing otherwise. I'm not getting dragged into that one so that I can be accused of more stalking! LOL

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  54. "But I also believe that the metabolic effect of eating low carb and forcing your body to burn fat instead of carbohydrates is equally important,"

    Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, they are not entitled to their own facts.

    So now it is "metabolic effect" as opposed to "metabolic advantage"? What's that all about? There are certainly "metabolic effects" of low-carbing. That's what CS discusses half the time here. But it doesn't add up to more and better weight loss.

    (Parenthetically I wonder what the "metabolic effects" of severe low carbing produce on a long-term basis but that is a discussion for another day.)

    I wish it did, God, I wish it did. But it doesn't.

    "as well as the health benefits you get from eating LC and the feeling of satiety after eating a meal."

    I have seen the study in which the LCers blood fats were improved. Good, but as Taubes himself would say: why are you only looking there? Because that is where the light is. OTOH, I found this study:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20807839

    Which indicates that a ketogenic diet induces insulin resistance. (CS, if you have already gone over this, my apologies.)

    "In conclusion, despite preventing weight gain in mice, KD induces hepatic insulin resistance secondary to increased hepatic diacylglycerol content"

    CS: re Taubes and plateaus. Yes, I realize that *part* of his shtick (the most "original" one) is that plateaus are stalls caused by wrecked metabolism. But in quoting Keys approvingly ("as Keys says") doesn't he also acknowledge energy balance? Isn't he double-talking here, as Eades does with calories?

    Everyone, you don't have to plow thru all of GCBC to read Taubesian dogma. Just go to page 454 and read. It's the insulin, baby!

    And regarding the supposed superior satiety of LC, please LCers, speak for yourselves. The one thing I agree with them on is the cruelty of depriving people of fat in the macronutrient balance. And I agree with them that fats are a good a necessary part of the human diet.

    But depriving me of carbs was just as satiety-killing as depriving me of fats. During all the years of my LCing (confirmation bias my ass), I was very un-satiated as a result of not eating enough carbs. Of course, Taubes would say I am an "addict." He would also say I have "wrecked my metabolism."

    14 pound weight loss as of today on my wrecked metabolism.

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  55. "I've read Taubes' WWGF and a few blogs by him or about him as well as many others by low carb bloggers. I don't stalk Taubes' online and I don't memorize by heart everything he has ever said."

    Nice little nasty low blow there! "Stalking"? I'd call it constructive criticism based on science.

    Look, mhb, we are not here to discuss your "beliefs." If you practice CICO, great. That's the only way you'll ever lose weight. But, and this is the last time I'm gonna say this, stop misrepresenting The Central Dogma of Low Carb dieting.

    Description of GCBC:

    "Challenging accepted ideas about weight control, fat, calories, diet, and exercise, the author of Bad Science argues that refined carbohydrates are the ultimate cause of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer; that overeating and sedentary behavior are side effects of increased insulin; and that removing these carbohydrates from one's diet is the only way to lose weight."

    (Note the description says "refined carbohydrates" while Taubes himself makes no distinction between any kind of carbohydrates. Oh well...)

    Taubes himself, page 454.

    2. The problem is the carbohydrates in the diet, their effect on insulin secretion.....

    Etc."

    Read it yourself.

    This is my last comment to mhb. She's clearly in the grip of some kind of delusion and no amount of reason is going to make a difference.

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  56. *********
    Your second point doesn't hold water. Just because low carbers are in the minority does not indicate anything about how successful or not LC is. It just MIGHT be because the majority has bought into what the government has been promoting for the last 30-40 years, that a low fat/low calorie diet is the only way to go.
    **********

    Huh? The research shows that people don't follow government recommendations. So how can you blame government recommendations when people don't follow them in the first place?

    And my second point certainly does hold water. If low fat/low cal was so bad, how come the majority of the people in the NWCR consume low fat/low cal diets?

    You also conveniently ignored my statement about long term randomized controlled trials.

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  57. Hi Diana, Re: "in quoting Keys approvingly ("as Keys says") doesn't he also acknowledge energy balance? Isn't he double-talking here, as Eades does with calories?"

    Why yes he is. Which is what makes such discussions so very frustrating and ultimately futile. Because someone will always come along and point out that he acknowledges the first law of thermo he just makes a ridiculous claim about directionality. He constantly talks in terms of excesses and calories but at the end of the day he contends he has it "different" and "right" that it is carbs that are fattening. You point out the Jimmy Moores of the world to Gary and he drags out the "damaged metabolism" excuse. Nevermind that Jimmy HAS weighed significantly less in his adult life and lost 170 lbs in 9 months on a low fat diet previously.

    @mhb, re: metabolic effects of some magical switch at burning this is the gimmick. G.I.M.M.I.C.K. (1) Lipolysis is NOT fat burning. It is necessary to mobilize fat from stores but even Taubes will tell you that if it's not used it goes back into storage. (2) Fat loss is the result of the NET burning of fats from storage -- If you have 50 lbs excess lipid in storage, eat 100g fat and burn 100g fat then you're at the same place as if you eat 225g carb and burn 225g carb. Actually, the slight advantage would go to the latter because TEF of carbs is about twice-three times that of fat ... but who's counting.

    You're the accountant right? Go back and read my nickel and dime post on LLVLC disco board without your biased rose colored glasses on or believing in the metabolism fairy intervening on your behalf.

    One last thing. If you haven't read a good portion of what the man actually does say, then how can you criticize others for not knowing what they are talking about? You can't have it both ways my dear. You seem to be trying to argue that he never said such things because you never read them. Perhaps I'm doing you a service after all here by compiling all of the conflicting accounts and stats of the purveyors of LC "wisdom" in one place.

    I wish you well in your weight loss. If LC is working for you I'll tell you what I tell everyone else -- take the ride as far as it will take you!! Just don't be too disappointed when it doesn't take you to the land that was promised*







    * Oh yeah, it was public all along so nobody should be surprised that they have various issues ... you weren't lied to or hyped to. Nobody ever told you to expect a normal weight or an ideal weight. The words "lean", "slim" or "skinny" never appear in the low carb literature after all. That must have been your imagination. < OK I'll now remove my tongue from my cheek >

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  58. Hi James, What you are saying needs to be repeated and thought about by every person considering a low carb diet. Atkins has been around for almost 40 years now. If it were the "magic bullet" it wouldn't matter if only 1 in 100 tried it and succeeded that would be 1%. And that should be cumulative right? Around 2003 it was estimated that over 10% of dieters were low carbing. Surely that should have made a dent in the representation at the NWCR right? Surely all of these successes would have spurred others. Even if the government said it would kill you, the obese have risked far greater dangers than LC to lose the weight.


    ***
    James, I realize after writing this it might sound like it's directed at you, but I think you know I'm agreeing with you :D

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  59. CS,

    (giggle)"Why yes he is. Which is what makes such discussions so very frustrating...."

    Yes, but let's forget about the doubletalk and focus for a second on the main Taubes point, which is the old damaged metabolism. I had a correspondence with Taubes about just this, when I thought I had one and couldn't eat one apple, not a damned apple, without those 20 horrible carb grams (in one sitting!!) sabotaging my weight loss.

    Now I'm only a Jimmy Moore N of 1, but fast forward several years. I'm older, fatter, and presumably my metabolism has been damaged by even more carb abuse, and I've been able to lose 14 pounds by ELMM'ing.

    During this period I have eaten cheese danish, chocolate danish, banana, butter pecan ice cream, bread, potatoes. (No pasta yet- I don't trust myself with the stuff.) But I've eaten all the poison metabolism damaging stuff and I've managed to lose weight - what up with that??

    I have left the funniest anecdote to last. As an experiment, on July 10, I went on a brutally difficult hike which included 1 mile of rock scrambling, the most difficult I have ever done. That day, I ate two MacDonald's bacon cheese and egg biscuits and 3 Micky D's oatmeal cookies (the best in the world, yes!). Calorie count was about 1400, but who is counting calories - the combination of carb load and fats is the killer right?

    I lost two pounds that day. I'm not going on a brutal hike every day. I am making a point: if you hike 10 miles, a mile of which is rock scrambling, you can have your Mickey D's too.

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  60. Can someone please provide a citation to an actual research report detailing what the hell "damaged metabolism" and "metabolic derangement" are?

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  61. James, Evelyn:

    Don't forget that the reason people don't succeed on Atkins, according to Taubes, is that we are all "carbohydrate addicts". Talk about circular reasoning.

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  62. RRX,

    I did a quick publication search. I did find quite a few with "metabolic derangement" as a search term. This paper seems to have a definition in the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20493213

    "Body weight gain, dyslipidemia, adiposity, impaired glucose homeostasis, insulin and leptin resistance and new-onset type II diabetes are all part of a syndromic cluster of vast medical concern."

    The papers I found using "damaged metabolism" seemed to refer to the cellular level rather than whole body metabolism. I didn't find one with a good definition though.

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  63. Thank you, MM.

    I'll take a look at the paper. Being that it discusses drug-induced "derangement", I wonder if there is diet-induced "derangement" in the way that people make statements like, "messed up metabolism" and whatnot. I have never seen any actual evidence of such things before, and I never hear how people got that derangement diagnosed. I usually just get the impression that they THINK they have a messed up metabolism. Given my skepticism for all things, I just cannot accept general statements of derangement or damage without actual evidence of such (in the case of an individual claiming his or her metabolism as messed up, I would want to know how exactly they know that).

    As for damaged metabolism on the cellular level, that is not a surprise that you find those papers and not papers discussing it in the way that people mean it. As in, they mean that they use less kcals/day than they think they should if they had a "properly" functioning metabolism.

    I think of it in the same way that the popular media likes to use the word "tone" even though such a word as they use it does not exist.

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  64. RRX wrote ...
    actual research ... "damaged metabolism" and "metabolic derangement" are?
    _____________
    fish around James Krieger's site for studies showing the formerly obese maintain a weight "x" using fewer calories than the "x" - weighted never-obese.

    This doesn't pinpoint what the effect is; the specific biochemical pathways or adaptations or in which organ/organs the effect happens (brain? liver? adipose tissue? all?) just that there is some kind of effect.

    IIRC it has not been excluded that these people started this way (so maybe they became obese because of this effect, not that this effect was caused by shedding weight)


    Those studies were discussed here too.

    There are also the anecdotal reports from the "biggest loser" that those who cut caloric intake way, way down and exercise the same as the regular competitors eating ~1500kcal/day end up actually losing less weight despite theoretically having a greater deficit. Maybe Dansiger will someday write a journal paper on the effect.

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  65. Sanjeev,

    You're thinking along the lines of what I have seen so far in the research. That is, studies of formerly obese vs never obese subjects' daily kcal requirements find a difference. The problems with those studies, as far as I'm concerned, are that

    1) They're usually group averages that have the difference
    2) When they're scatter-plotted you can see that daily caloric requirements are all over the place and in fact formerly-obese subjects can have maintenance kcal requirements that match never-obese subjects
    3a) The difference that is found is usually only ~100-200 kcals.
    3b) That difference, depending upon the study, is lessened when adjusted for lean body mass differences, activity levels, etc.

    On top of that, there is a body of research on fasting that I have read that has found that subjects can and did go months without eating (water and daily multivitamin) and they can and did lose weight that whole time (as in, they did not stall).

    Because I have seen what is in all of these studies, I just cannot buy into the idea that metabolisms "crash" or are "suppressed" from caloric restriction like so many claim (including proponents of low carb diets).

    I am, of course, always open to further information. I am interested to read the paper MM linked to (and the few other studies I have already gotten from that one).

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  66. RRX,

    I discuss one of the best studies on this subject here:

    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=415

    From this data it is quite clear that there is a reduction in energy expenditure with weight loss that exceeds what you would predict from weight loss alone. The reduction is quite sizeable (nearly 500 calories per day), with the majority of it coming from a reduction in spontaneous physical activity.

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  67. Most people with a history of weight cycling claim they have damaged metabolisms or very slow metabolisms but that's not really supported by the evidence. As you say, if there's a difference, it's minimal (100-200 cal/day).

    I think what's more likely is once a person diets below their setpoint, the body will send an awful lot of "eat now" signals and once the formerly obese person starts to eat, the "stop eating" cues are muted. They find themselves succumbing from time to time to these impulses, possibly in a binge/mini-binge like way (interspersed with recommitting, steely resolve to "not give in") up until they have regained to their setpoint and a little bit beyond. Once that happens, their eating somewhat normalizes so they'll maintain at the new higher setpoint. Most dieters find within five years they've regained all their lost pounds and have added a few more for good measure. If you've ever tried to maintain a significant weight loss, you probably understand first hand what I'm referring to when I talk about those impulses to eat/overeat.

    In order to maintain a weight loss (especially a significant weight loss) great attention has to be paid to the amount of calorie intake as well as managing all those cues to eat and to continue to eat beyond satiety.

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  68. Good points Andrea! And just to piggy-back, I also think that folks need to realize that those body "cues" become stronger depending on how much is lost and how fast. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most folks who lose over 100 pounds in a year have a much greater battle with their bodies (physically and emotionally) than someone who lost 50 pounds or less in a year.

    The problem is, and this is not just in the LC community, that moderation and consistency seem to be evil words ... ;)

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  69. I certainly don't dismiss the concept of a damaged metabolism, but I do in the sense that Taubes means it: after years of carb abuse (all those udon noodles in Japan! all that rice in China! All those beans the Hopi eat!) your ability to maintain a normal healthy weight is deranged. And that's the reason you have all these low carbers, cutting back their carb intake to 20 carb grams and less, who just can't lose weight.

    They've tried "everything" (except calorie restriction or exercise) but they just can't lose that gut. It's because of the carbs, the carb addiction, and the "damaged metabolism."

    I was convinced I had one of them, because I had "tried everything" (except ELMM). I went to an endocrinologist, who as a part of his standard testing, tested my metabolism. Guess what, not damaged at all. I tried ELMM, and it worked.

    As Andrea points out, I do find it hard. There are times when the constant vigilance is a chore. But it's a chore to clean my house. I have a choice: I can live in a dirty house, or I can clean it up. Same goes for losing weight. I can live in Low Carb La La Land, or I can face the music.

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  70. Thank you Diana. Thank you.

    That you even took the time to actually have a test done to find out if you actually have any metabolic (in the cellular sense of the word, not the caloric sense) dysfunction is HUGE to me. That really deserves recognition. Too many assumptions are made, I think, when it comes to what is going on inside of our bodies. That is great that you actually attempted to find out what was actually going on, rather than leaving it to an assumption for the rest of your life.

    Maybe it hasn't been studied, and maybe it has and I have not seen it, but I have never seen a study that has found dysfunction of whatever blood measure to equal less kcals/day required to maintain weight. In that way, I am just not sold on the inability to lose weight being because of a "wrecked metabolism".

    James, I have a response to your link and the paper itself. Should I post it here, on your site, both, ...? I'm not sure, and it kind of seems like it's going down a tangent to the topic of this post (or not?). So, I am wondering if it's better to put it on your site. Sane, an opinion?

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  71. Oh, I have no doubt that the concept of a "wrecked metabolism" is a bunch of hooey. Everyone can lose weight if a consistent calorie deficit is achieved. But -- and it's a big but -- inducing a consistent calorie deficit can be very difficult for some people. Some people, especially people trying to lose below their setpoint, can suffer from very strong impulses to eat. When they give in to it any accumulated deficit is usually kaput.

    It's not as easy as saying to oneself "All I have to do is eat XX calories a day." Sometimes, the mind is willing but the flesh is weak, especially after weight loss when people are in the maintenance phase. There is going to be a metabolic drive to regain lost weight so anyone who wants to maintain a weight loss is going to have to have an arsenal of tools to address this (increased exercise, filling up on low energy dense foods, etc.). This metabolic drive to regain weight exists no matter the WOE chosen. That's why Jimmy struggles mightily.

    Why the LC community refuses to admit this I have no idea. They want Low Carb to be magic. It's not. I think it's important for people to understand the biological drive to regain that way they can implement strategies to combat it.

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  72. RRX,

    You are quite welcome, but it was my doctor's need to put 4 kids thru college that was the reason I underwent this test. Meaning, he gets paid a shitload of money from the insurance co. when he administers tests. But thanks anyway!! (And yes, I agree with your point which is that before you talk about something authoritatively, have it checked.)

    Something else has occurred to me. Which is that HAES, if it is valid, is in direct contradiction to the Taubesian "wrecked metabolism" theory. Because by definition, you can't have a "wrecked metabolism" and be healthy, can you?

    Just asking.

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  73. @Andrea, "Some people, especially people trying to lose below their setpoint, can suffer from very strong impulses to eat. When they give in to it any accumulated deficit is usually kaput"

    Yes, absolutely and it doesn't take much, either, to sabotage one's weight loss efforts. And it can all be healthy foods. It doesn't have to be a candy bar. I've lost weight eating cheese danish (which satisfied me for most of a day) and gained weight eating an extra can of sardines, or extra handful of cherries. It's tough.

    I think the key is to allow yourself your little transgressions and call it not failure but real life. People eat more some days and less on others. Looking back on my successful weight loss efforts here is how I did it: I put together, in a period of time, several bursts of ELMM that outlasted the "EMML". I say "over a period of time" because the body doesn't know what a week or a month is. The period of time would be "over the period of time that I lost weight."

    Regarding setpoint, I believe there is something to this but James, Andrea, Evelyn - is there scientific evidence to back this up? Or is it psychological?

    Because I used to believe that I was physically addicted to sugar, and now I know that I am not. During this weight loss phase I had a box of ice cream in my freezer that lasted nearly a week. Back in the day, forget it, I'd have consumed the thing in an hour. But that didn't happen this time. And why can I now eat a cheese danish and be satisfied with that as two meals? (I don't recommend this on a daily basis, I'm just reporting I did it.)

    So, I'm prepared to think that setpoint may be a very real, powerful psychological issue, but not a physiological one. I'd like more data. I'm sure that there is SOME validity to it - we all need some fat, and of course, muscle - but is it possible that many of us are convinced that we have a certain setpoint and that it's not so?

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  74. Andrea,

    Can you define what you think "set-point" is and what you think the "drive" is to gain/re-gain weight? And, do you have any papers you can cite showing evidence of those existing beyond some quasi-vague thing that we have? I ask because I have not seen evidence for such things and they're "a bunch of hooey" to me in the same way that a "wrecked metabolism" is (calorically speaking, not cellularly speaking).

    I would appreciate any info you can offer. As I said before, I admit that I haven't seen or read everything and am open to the fact that I probably just have not gotten to those reports yet. Until then, though, I remain skeptical.

    Thanks for any help you can offer.

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  75. Here's information on the set-point theory and how body weight is controlled by the hypothalamus:

    "One important function that has been attributed to the ventromedial nucleus is control of eating. Bilateral lesions of the ventromedial nucleus in animals and probably humans as well, result in overeating (hyperphagia) and extreme obesity (Fig. 4) as well as a chronically irritable mood and increase in aggressive behavior (termed hypothalamic rage). By contrast, bilateral lesions in the lateral hypothalamic area result in anorexia (lack of appetite). Animals with lesions in this area may die of starvation. As a result of these lesion studies (along with supporting stimulation studies), the ventromedial nucleus has been referred to as a satiety center and the lateral hypothalamic area as a feeding center. It has been postulated that these opposing centers define a “set point” for body weight: the set point theory of weight control. According to this theory, when body weight goes below the set point, the lateral hypothalamus is activated and appetite is increased ; when body weight goes above the set point, the ventromedial nucleus is activated and appetite is decreased. This theory was questioned in the past, but recent evidence has been obtained that supports an integrative role of the ventromedial nucleus and lateral hypothalamic area in body weight control: their neurons respond to glucose, free fatty acid and insulin levels in a manner consistent with the set point theory, and activity levels in the two nuclei display a strict reciprocal relationship that is appropriately correlated with the level of hunger or satiety."

    http://www.neuroanatomy.wisc.edu/coursebook/neuro2(2).pdf

    Also, body weight set point theory is discussed in the Dieter's Dilemma by William Bennett and Joel Gurin. http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0465016537

    Then there's always the Minnesota Starvation Experiment (Keys) in which the participants experienced very distorted eating until they regained to a new slightly ratcheted up setpoint (IIRC it was to 10% beyond starting weight).

    My position is anyone can lose weight by creating a consistent calorie deficit over time, the problem people seem to have is maintaining weight loss. No one has the easy answer to this one yet, not Taubes, not anyone.

    It appears in order to maintain a weight loss a very high level of vigilance is required and even then there is often a lbs. creep. 2 lbs. here, 3 lbs. there and it truly can seem like an uphill climb most of the time.

    If it were only as easy as figuring out a specific calorie range and exercise plan to shoot for that will maintain a reduced body weight. That's not where the flubbing comes into play. It's the implementation of the plan that proves difficult -- sticking to it day in and day out, through the ups and downs of life, the holidays, the parties, work commitments, family commitments, injuries, aches/pains that may sideline us from our workouts, etc.

    One thing known to ratchet the setpoint upwards is repeated yo-yo dieting. That's what Linda Bacon and HAES seeks to address. I disagree that you can be healthy at any size but I do agree that yo-yo dieting is more detrimental (physically and psychologically) than maintaining a consistent body weight while paying great attention to healthy behaviors (i.e. a whole food healthy diet, eating mindfully, getting adequate amounts of cardiovascular and resistance exercise, reducing stress, living a balanced life, etc.).

    HAES is not a license to engage in hedonic eating although many people think it is.

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  76. @Diana etc. re: Setpoint. This is Stephan's "baby". I definitely believe in it to some degree and in a "natural" environment this should hold. In other words truly wild animals and even animals in some laboratory conditions seem to defend a setpoint. As do young lean males on whom many of the over/under feeding studies are done.

    My opinion, however, is that cultural and psychological issues can easily override the body's natural mechanisms that try to maintain homeostasis. We just watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding for the umpteenth time. Nuff said? You know, you tell a low carber they should go on a low fat diet and what's the first thing they will do? Coil in fear over being hungry all the time. But I just received a paper on ad libitum low fat diets and guess what? They work for weight loss just like low carb w/o hunger. There's something about being "on a diet" that contributes to things. Also I think the body reacts to how long it is in a negative energy balance because the metabolic state (fatty acid levels, and such) is the same whether one has lost 20 lbs from 300-280 or 150-130 lbs. Perhaps the plateaus just need to be ridden out.

    I have about half of a post on this issue in the hopper. I think I'll add some of the commentary here to it when I get around to publishing.

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  77. Diana,

    "Yes, absolutely and it doesn't take much, either, to sabotage one's weight loss efforts. And it can all be healthy foods. It doesn't have to be a candy bar. I've lost weight eating cheese danish (which satisfied me for most of a day) and gained weight eating an extra can of sardines, or extra handful of cherries. It's tough."

    This has been my experience as well. There's a myth out there that healthy foods (or in the LC world protein/fat) can't cause weight gain and that's a load of horsesh$t). Eat calories over that which the body requires and your body will depot the excess as fat, regardless of the macronutrient makeup of the food.

    Similarly, there can be room for an occasional indulgence (i.e. cheese danish) without exploding into Jabba the Hut. It's all about accountability and recognizing that whatever you put in your mouth has consequences, both good and bad.

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  78. Andrea,

    Thank you for sharing that. I knew that about the hypothalamus, yet I don't really consider that evidence for a set-point. Perhaps my requirement for objective evidence is a problem here. How exactly are we supposed to know, objectively, what our set-points are? And if we have set-points, then why do we gain or lose any weight at all? Why would the set-point ever let that happen? And, doesn't that then mean that there is no set-point if our weight can go up and down to begin with? This just sounds like guess-work to me.

    For example, what is my set-point? How does set-point explain my circumstances? I spent time at 300 lbs. Is it that? Is it when I got to 220 lbs and stayed there for a little bit? Is it the ~185 lbs I was for years? Is it the 165 lbs I have been since the beginning of this year? The passage seems to me to discuss this in the sense of appetite. Is that what is meant by set-point? That it is the experience of more, less, or no hunger?

    As for maintaining weight-loss, I don't think the effort is all or nothing. Before my acknowledgement of calories last year, I thought that I always had to mind the carbs and be concerned if I ate "too many" of them. After a lit review, I stopped worrying about carbs and acknowledged the idea that I should be able to eat 4000 kcals/day is just ridiculous. With no more effort than it took to low-carb to the ~185 lbs, I dropped 20 lbs (during the span of Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I was want for nothing on the holidays!) and I have maintained it without effort since. My appetite has, in fact, not increased.

    Furthermore, what does this experience say about set-point? To me, it says set-point theory is crap. A constantly moving set-point means there is actually no set-point at all. What am I missing?

    Post Script:

    Since you brought up yo-yo dieting, can someone please cite some data showing that it actually causes ill health (meaning, I don't want spurious correlation data)? I am still waiting to be convinced of that.

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  79. I guess since I got into set-point on here, I will comment on James' link about the Rosenbaum paper on energy expenditure.

    I am sure we all understand this, but I think it needs to be said. No descriptive study of energy expenditure in humans (or any animal, that I have seen) has ever shown that between subject variability is zero. That is, no one should expect that the person to his or her right or left expends the same amount of calories per day. It could be for a number of reasons; age, height, lean body mass differences, activity level differences, etc. (all of those are mentioned by James). There is ALWAYS variability between subjects. That means that as much as a person may think he or she should expend # kcals/day, that means jack $hit. What he or she or any of us expend is what it is whether we like it or not. The scatter plots of energy expenditure of samples are all over the place. No two people are likely to expend the same amount of kcals/day. It does me no good to lament about the person next to me expending 4000 kcals/day while I only expend 2700 kcals/day. I'm not a child and I am not going to act like one. So, I act accordingly and don't let myself eat 4000 kcals/day unless I bust ass to expend that much. If I am not going to, then I accept that I expend less and get on with it. It's a waste of my time crying about that.

    We must examine the results of the Rosenbaum paper with that cautious understanding that variability is to be expected between people in general and between the subjects in the trios specifically. To that end, from the paper: "Third, physical activity was limited by the restriction of subjects to the CRC, although, even with this limitation, between-subject differences in spontaneous physical activity are likely; these differences were not measured." (I cite Levine, et al. 1999 Role of Nonexercise Activity Thermogenesis in Resistance to Fat Gain in Humans, along with Levine's 2004 review, Nonexercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT))

    Because there was no controlling for NREE in the study, I fail to understand what meaning is supposed to be derived from the comparison of their TDEE other than to have that on record and to see who was more active. I think that the comparisons of REE is the real value when it comes to the effects of weight loss on energy expenditure in this study.

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  80. Trio 1: REE of Wt-sustained was only 87 kcals/day less than Wt-initial.
    Trio 2: REE of Wt-sustained was 179 kcals/day less than Wt-initial. That difference is within a range expected from the descriptive studies already done on energy expenditure (REE or TEE)
    Trio 3: REE of Wt-sustained was 144 kcals/day MORE than Wt-initial. Should we make a big deal out of this...or is it just expected variability like in trio 2...? I think it's not unexpected.
    Trio 4: REE of Wt-sustained was 60 kcals/day MORE than Wt-initial.
    Trio 5: REE of Wt-sustained was 64 kcals/day MORE than Wt-initial.
    Trio 6: REE of Wt-sustained was 492 kcals/day less than Wt-initial. Now that is interesting and worth looking into, IMO.
    Trio 7: REE of Wt-sustained was only 15 kcals/day less than Wt-initial.
    Group Averages: The absolute values were Wt-sustained 1622, Wt-initial 1694, and Wt-loss-recent 1555. That is within expected variation. AND, the adjusted "Residual" values were Wt-sustained -143, Wt-initial -40, and Wt-loss-recent -161.

    Some noticeable differences in the subjects of each trio was age, height, body composition and activity levels. Only absolute mass was matched between subjects, not the rest...which do play a part in REE. That the time of weight-loss and never-was-obese are the chosen primary variables of this study does not mean they are causally related to energy expenditure.

    Ignoring a PSA for the former/recently/currently-obese to increase their activity levels, this paper tells me that people need to not compare themselves to others insofar as energy expenditure goes. If Wt-sustained of Trio 2 is sitting at 149 lbs with a maintenance of 2100 kcals/day, she should not be wasting her time worrying about the fact that she expends 350 kcals less than Wt-initial. She should be eating 2100 kcals/day and happy that she lost the damn weight and is not going to put it back on because she is going to act like an adult and not bitch about Wt-initial eating 2450 kcals/day without gaining any weight. And if she really does want to eat 350 kcals more a day, then she needs to do what Wt-initial does and up her NEAT and/or exercise.

    Ultimately, I am left disagreeing with the statement James made, "From this data it is quite clear that there is a reduction in energy expenditure with weight loss that exceeds what you would predict from weight loss alone." That is not what the data shows, IMO.

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  81. @RXX “A constantly moving set-point means there is actually no set-point at all.”

    J.P. Flatt says essentially the same thing. I think that a good article for you to look at – if you're not already familiar with it – is Flatt's “editorial” in OBESITY entitled “Issues and misconceptions about obesity”. See specifically sections 9 and 11; however, the entire article is well worth a read. He also speaks to the issue of basal metabolism. I've been returning to this article frequently ever since Don Matesz cited it in one of his “Farewell to Paleo” posts. There's a lot to digest (pun intended) and some of the concepts are totally new to me. For example, did you know that weight stability (settling point) occurs when RQ equals average FQ in the diet? No? Well then go read and enjoy (and then explain it to me!):

    http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v19/n4/full/oby20117a.html

    Archie

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  82. I don't have James Krieger's link in front of me which cites the Leibel study, but from memory: doesn't the study stop at one year? I wonder what would happen if you studied NEAT at two years, five....etc. Perhaps the body adjusts and goes back to a higher level of energy expenditure. Just a thought.

    Regarding set point, I am probably not putting this correctly, but you might think of set point as that awful place where NEAT is lowest alongside lowest possible energy intake (without starvation, so you cannot go any lower)? Now if you could change this setpoint (by maintaining for more than a year), well, that would be neat.

    I'm not sure I'm making any sense at all.

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  83. Archibald,

    I read that when it came out (sometime this year?). I'll take a look at the RQ/FQ part again when I have some time and will get back to you.

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  84. Diana,

    Please do not think that I am trying to be difficult just for difficulty's sake. I really am trying to clarify all of this and understand set-point such that I don't just dismiss it outright due to not understanding it in the context of what I current know.

    That said, I am taking the definition of starvation to be the point at which any less food would not match the requirements of the body's physiological processes. Would you agree? Do you think of it more as the amount of food needed to be weight-stable? Is it just measured by the subjective sensation of extreme hunger?

    As for the NEAT thing, I don't understand that part. Sorry.

    BTW, you can call it quits on this topic anytime that you want if I just drag on and on...as I likely will while trying to understand the basis behind set-point (or any other topic I don't know about or conflicts with what I do know).

    Thanks & Ciao.

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  85. **********
    We must examine the results of the Rosenbaum paper with that cautious understanding that variability is to be expected between people in general and between the subjects in the trios specifically.
    ***********

    No one expects variability between subjects in a study to be 0. This is why statistical analyses are used in a study...to help explain the variability between subjects. I don't see how your point of variability refutes the conclusion of the paper.

    ********
    Because there was no controlling for NREE in the study,
    ********

    That is not true. NREE was calculated in this study, and this is described in the methods section. You seem to be confusing the calculation of NREE with physical activity measurement. Physical activity was not directly measured (via accelerometers or some other device), which is what the researchers were referring to when they mentioned they didn't measure spontaneous physical activity. But since SPA is going to be the primary source of NREE in a study where people are confined to a metabolic ward, it is reasonable to assert that any differences in NREE are due to differences in SPA. They can also be due to differences in efficiency (i.e., expending less calories for the same movement), and Rosenbaum et al have reported (in another paper) that 35% or so of the decrease in NREE comes from an increase in efficiency. That means the rest must come from a decrease in movement.

    ***********
    I think that the comparisons of REE is the real value when it comes to the effects of weight loss on energy expenditure in this study.
    ***********

    I don't see how such a claim can be made, when the changes in NREE are of a much greater magnitude than the changes in REE. This is not the only study to show this. There have been a number of papers, from a variety of authors and research labs, showing greater-than-expected decreases in NREE due to weight loss. There has also been research that has directly examined SPA (through the use of accelerometers) and that has been found to decrease as well. I have written about some of these studies on my site.


    **********
    Some noticeable differences in the subjects of each trio was age, height, body composition and activity levels. Only absolute mass was matched between subjects, not the rest...which do play a part in REE.
    *************

    That's why regression was used to control for these factors.


    ******
    That is not what the data shows, IMO.
    ******

    It is because you are misinterpreting the data and the analysis. You are trying to directly compare individuals within each trio, which is not how the data is supposed to be utilized.

    The results of the regression equations clearly showed that the people at their initial body weights, as a group, had an energy expenditure close to what you would predict they would have based on their body weight, age, etc. The people who had lost at least 10% of their weight had an energy expenditure lower than you would predict they would have, based on those same variables. This means that the decrease in energy expenditure for this group was more than you would expect based on the weight change alone.

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  86. RRX,

    Don't worry I do not think you are being argumentative and I want to get a better handle on this subject myself.

    I have problems with the set point theory, both emotionally (I don't *want* to believe in it) and from experience. It seems that every 15 pounds or so, my own body would re-set its setpoint – yes, a moving target, which really IS no set point. However....when I'd reach these 15 pound increments, my body did seem to want to stay there and I found it very hard to reduce.

    Body or mind? I wonder. (Note, My own 15 pound increments were: 175, 160, 145...see the pattern? I'm trying to punch thru the latest with a modified protein sparing fast.)

    Rather than re-state my own confusion and confusing questions about set-point and NEAT, let me just say this. Whatever you want to call the body's (mind's?) "desire" to stay at a stable weight, for however long, I think that this temporary settling point has something to do with NEAT.

    It seems to me that where you have to fight your body/mind, NEAT is involved and it involves processes that we don't quite understand fully. The body does not want to reduce NEAT levels further. Leibel followed people for a year. What about two? Three? Ten? This is what I wonder.

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  87. Andrea,

    I do believe that some people have a "wrecked metabolism," but they are usually very sick, or very old, OR have damaged themselves through years of drug/alcohol abuse. And perhaps the morbidly obese have metabolic issues - I'd like to see everyone on the LC forums have the tests done.

    I simply object to the Taubes definition of a wrecked metabolism: anyone who wants to eat carbs (addicted!), and/or who can't lose weight ("I don't know what I'm doing wrong!") eating 3,000 calories a day of protein and fat - but less than 20 carb grams!

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  88. As I understand it, set point theory refers to a genetically determined body weight range. It's not a fixed point (i.e. 178 lbs.) but it does account for the small amount of weight variability through the years seen in many people. Stunkard's twins are a good example of how body weight is genetically predetermined.

    For some, their genetic set-point may be higher than desired. For example, a 5.4" woman may have a genetic set point of 150-170 lbs. but she may be unhappy with her physique at that weight, preferring a more Hollywood ideal body type. So, she diets and loses down to 125 lb. only to find herself bombarded with cues to EAT which she battles, sometimes winning and sometimes succumbing. Within 5 years (and most likely sooner than that), chances are she'll have regained to a bit over her initial 155 lbs. to 157 lbs. Unhappy, she begins the process anew. Loses down to 127lb. than gains back up to 160 lbs. Lather rinse repeat. This is a story related time and again. Many women report dieting themselves to eventual obesity and often wax nostalgic about the initial weight they once considered too high.

    Also, it's quite possible for someone to eat over their genetically predetermined set point due to psychological issues (i.e. various eating disorders, emotional eating, etc.) or because they've gotten used to disregarding body cues of hunger and satiety (i.e., eating to the clock regardless of whether or not one is hungry, or we're at the movies and we always get popcorn at the movies, etc.). I don't think it's uncommon for people struggling with weight issues to report eating in response to other factors besides hunger. I've also read (and in fact Linda Bacon refers to it in HAES) that certain foods (i.e. HFCS) disrupt hunger/satiety cues making it more likely the person will overeat. And I think the easy access to hyperpalatable foods (and the rewards associated with their intake) contribute to overeating.

    Overall I'm much less concerned with how to lose weight as I am with how to maintain weight loss. There are any number of valid routes to create the calorie deficit, the problem for people seems to be in maintaining weight loss.

    If it's true that there's a metabolic/biologic drive to regain lost pounds (and I've read studies which show this), then people have to be prepared for that and develop strategies to prevent the regain. Successful maintainers report eating in a conscious "highly restrained" manner and engaging in frequent exercise. For some, the idea of eating in a restrained manner for basically forever is, well, a total downer as is an hour long Cardio Pump class when you're tired or otherwise not in the mood.

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  89. As far as the negative effects of yo-yo dieting it's been found it could impact immune function:

    http://www.fhcrc.org/about/ne/news/2004/06/01/yoyodieting.html

    Some studies have shown a link between weight cycling and hypertension (although others haven't):

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15343355

    I read one study which found pear shaped women who dieted and then regained the weight had lost fat from their hips and thighs (protective fat) and then regained more abdominal fat although I believe this study hasn't been replicated. It's enough to give me pause though and consider that one a possible.

    Also, rates of cholecystectomy are higher among weight cyclers:

    http://www.annals.org/content/130/6/471.short

    Not to mention the detrimental psychological effects of weight cycling on the individual. I think it's pretty safe to say that someone who lost a significant amount of weight and then regained suffer a fair amount of psychological distress. I can also assume those people, who may feel a sense of failure, hopelessness, sadness and shame are probably less likely to engage in healthful behaviors such as frequent exercise and dietary restraint, contributing to the overall problem.

    Given the above, I think it's safe to say that yo-yo dieting carries risk.

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  90. @ Diana,

    The "wrecked metabolism" I'm referring to is the reports of: "I'm hardly eating yet I can't lose weight" or "I only eat 1200 calories a day and I'm gaining weight" that is frequently heard with a "sluggish metabolism" fingered as the culprit.

    People routinely underestimate caloric intake and overestimate caloric expenditure. They may say they're only eating 1200 calories a day and may truly believe it but they're likely eating much more.

    In the lab, when calories are controlled, people lose weight. Even those who swear they can't because their metabolism is wrecked will lose.

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  91. Hi Andrea,

    While I certainly believe what you're saying is true, for the "resistant" obese (studies show that there's really no such thing), I do believe it can be true for the "reduced obese".

    In my case -- and mind you I'm not saying this with any certainty b/c it's never been measured and I'm not a meticulous record keeper/monitor -- long periods of LC weight loss do seem to suppress my metabolism more than anything else ever has. In 2009 when I did track intake for a period (carefully) I was maintaining at around 1500-1600 cal, losing a bit at 12-1300 cal. Any 200-ish pound woman should be losing on either level. It seems to have come back a bit with maintenance.

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  92. Agree, reduced obese is a whole other story which is why maintenance can be so challenging. Especially maintenance below a genetically predetermined weight range.

    I can maintain much easier in the 160s as a 5'6" woman than I can in the 130-140s (which is where I want to be). After a lifetime (I'm 47) of battling weight issues, I've now realized that to consistently try to lose to 135-145 only to find it dang near impossible to stay there is no longer a fight I'm willing to wage.

    My calorie requirement at 145 with 6 day/week workouts (hour long hi/lo aerobics/step aerobics 6x, twice weekly resistance training) is MAX 1400 and I just can't hack it at that level. I have compelling impulses to eat and over a period of time regain back. A 145 lb. woman with that activity level should be able to eat more than 1400 calories to maintain. But as a reduced obese (high weight 196 lb.) I just couldn't. Part of the whole "Life's Not Fair" thing, I guess.

    When I'm at my setpoint range (150s-160) I still must eat mindfully and exercise, but I don't get the crazy EAT NOW impulses and I can eat about 1800-2000 a day and maintain. I will say that since my last bout of dieting I'm unable to maintain in the lower part of my range (150s). I seem to be firmly stuck in the 160s which, at this point, I've got to be cool with or I'll go crazy ;).

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  93. This is purely anecdotal, but MY body seems to become super efficient when I eat VLC for long stretches. I definitely regained weight far faster post-Atkins than I ever was able to do binging between other diets in my yo yo days. So, while I never had my metabolism measured, I would not be surprised that it would be very low. Most studies that measure it are "Atkins by the book" and not terminal induction which is what most folks end up doing.

    Still, my metabolism seems to have bounced back some so that I can get mileage again if/when I lower intake (I'm hopeful that since I've not done the VLC thing for a good while now that doing it will work the "magic" food restriction that it was no longer producing).

    I think we all have to try not to go crazy -- don't do it Andrea!! -- trying for an unattainable goal. Those relatively few excess pounds are likely NOT unhealthy, and may even be protective as we age.

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  94. Everybody,

    Ultimately this setpoint issue will be answered by analyzing the genome. We are identifying genes for height, muscularity, etc. Why not for adiposity?

    That said, there is always environment. Height is affected by undernutrition and overnutrition. (The obesity epidemic, for example, is bringing on early puberty in girls, which shuts off their growth prematurely - paradoxically they will end up *shorter* than they would have if they had eaten smaller amounts of better food. My theory as to why N. Europeans are now so tall is because they have hit upon the ideal formula for bringing out the genetic potential for height: feed your kids a good diet - but don't overfeed. Put off puberty until as late as possible, and this will evoke someone's greatest natural height potential.)

    Andrea,

    I sympathize with your struggles as they mirror mine. We are about the same height and weight range.

    But please bear in mind that the setpoint range you cite as normal for you would have been considered very overweight in the 1950s. I remember those years very well (b. 1955) and trust me, women were much skinnier then than now. What has changed? Our genome? No, our eating and movement habits.

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  95. How do you like this. I was thinking about diet-gene interaction and I just heard something about this on TV. This is not new, but it's new to me and I'm intrigued.

    http://www.theheart.org/article/1053429.do

    This might explain why I do not seem to lose weight on high protein diets, supposedly the gold standard of reducing diets. Could it be those ole devil Slavic genes?

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  96. The study:

    http://www.inherenthealth.com/media/4759/wm_scientific%20summary.pdf

    NONE of this means that CICO doesn't work. They are only speaking of macronutrient proportions.

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  97. James,

    I just want to be clear, I do not think that you have to humor me in these comments. Anytime that you get tired of me and my questions/comments, do not feel any obligation to continue on. I'm not paying you or anyone else to spend time on any of this. I completely understand if you call it quits on my postings if you decide I am wasting your time. I just want you to know that I get that.

    Now, I have always learned that statistical analyses produce a value of the likelihood of differences in data to have occurred by chance or not. The p-value we use (p<.05, p<.01 or p<.0001) is a way of listing the threshold at which we say that the difference is or is not likely to have occurred by chance alone. Do stats say something else, especially the stats used in this paper? Please do share that with me if you think there's something more to them. My understanding is that the design of the study is what tells us about the relationships and connections between the studied variables, especially about causality. If that is not correct, then I and a lot of researchers I know have been missing something HUGE. Do share!

    As for NREE, controlling does not mean calculating. But I will take the route of asking that you let me rephrase. Rosenbaum, et al. did not experimentally manipulate the NREE. If they did not, then I do not see how the explanation for the differences they found are anything more than guesses and conjecture. Can they or you make claims about what the cause of the differences in NREE in their study are when they did not experimentally manipulate the activity of the subjects? They did not randomly assign subjects to a condition that had them gain and then lose greater than 10% of their body-weight & maintain that for at least a year, a condition that had subjects remain at a specific weight, or a condition that had subjects recently lose greater than 10% of their body-weight. Are there studies that already did that? Are there studies that already experimentally demonstrated that weight gain and then loss causally affects NEAT/NREE more than is expected by the weight alone? And if there has been, that still doesn't excuse skipping that in their own study. Which one force-feed people until they gained >10% body-weight & then had them lose the weight AND found the NEAT/NREE to drop below the initial level? I guess that I am misunderstanding NEAT/NREE. Did Rosenbaum, et al. explain how they accounted for the Wt-sustained subjects having gained that weight in the first place by having lower NREE than someone who never gained weight in the first place?

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  98. As for efficiency studied by Rosenbaum, is that the one you cited on your page? I am interested to read up on that one when I get a chance. If you mean another, please cite it. I am interested to check it out.

    My discussion above is why I continue to think that the valuable part of this study is the REE. Address the above and maybe then I will think that there's something interesting about a person that's more active not gaining weight like another person did. You say, "There have been a number of papers, from a variety of authors and research labs, showing greater-than-expected decreases in NREE due to weight loss." I have and I will continue to ask for citations. That statement itself does not convince me of anything. This is your profession. You should have them easily accessible. Throw down, if you care to. That said, I understand if you don't want to waste your time. I am just a random person on the internet that means nothing to you. I will understand if this whole thing just ends up not worth your time.

    As for the regression, I repeat myself by saying again, "the adjusted "Residual" values were Wt-sustained -143, Wt-initial -40, and Wt-loss-recent -161." If you think that those are meaningful differences (that are not likely to be due to chance, as the correct phrasing goes), then you and I disagree. That difference does not cause an individual to gain back within a year the greater than 10% of body-weight that they lost. It is ridiculously minor.

    Last, you said, "You are trying to directly compare individuals within each trio, which is not how the data is supposed to be utilized." Why the hell did they make trios then if not to compare them? I am DEFINITELY misunderstanding something there if that is the case.

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  99. @Diana, I am very intrigued by this as well:


    "I was thinking about diet-gene interaction and I just heard something about this on TV. This is not new, but it's new to me and I'm intrigued."

    For awhile now I've been thinking that there isn't one "obesity" but rather "obesities" and that there can be different causes and effective interventions based on what type of "obese" you are. I remember reading in a fitness magazine about a year ago that one should tailor their diet to their body type: apples (central adiposity) should eat low carb, cellos (evenly distributed fat) should eat a Mediterranean diet, and pears should eat low-fat. Who knows if it's true but I will tell you that looking back at my own diet history I fared best on low fat and worst on low carb. I'm a pear.

    When I did low carb (South Beach phase 1 to the letter) I not only didn't lose weight but the scale started to inch up. Why? Well, because the satiety people reported when eating that way was just not a reality for me. I could eat large amounts of protein and fat and still crave more. I didn't crave carbs when I was on South Beach, but I did crave cheese and flank steak and grilled chicken, etc.

    A typical day on South Beach was this:

    Breakfast: Omelet made with large amounts of vegetables roasted in olive oil and garlic, with cheese.

    Snack: String cheese sticks and sliced turkey breast rolled in lettuce leaves. Eaten to satiety (Don't ask!)

    Lunch: Huge salad topped with olive oil dressing (ad lib), cheese, and a leftover protein from the dinner the night before (i.e. grilled chicken, flank steak, salmon, etc.). The protein portion I put on that salad was not small.

    Snack 2: More cheese! Or Meat!

    Dinner: Meat!!! Lots!! then more vegetables cooked with olive oil (not sparing!) and did I mention CHEESE! Tomato salads with buffalo mozzarella and basil ad lib!

    Dessert: Part skim ricotta cheese with splenda and vanilla (i.e. mock cheesecake).

    Before bedtime snack: Ummm, cheese! Or a couple of grilled chicken breasts.

    Why the heck was I eating so much? I just could not get sated. It was horrible. Once the scale started inching up I realized I had to cut portions way down and knock some things out entirely, like the mock cheesecake but then I started to really suffer from satiety issues.

    It wasn't until I said "screw this" and went back to eating carbs that I lost weight. Now, those carbs for me have to be whole food/whole grain but I can definitely eat potatoes, rice, whole wheat, fruit, etc. mindfully without gain and I also am more sated and my eating is way more reasonable when I don't cut carbs.

    I remember having an email correspondence with a South Beach nutritionist telling her I wasn't losing and that I thought I should probably count calories and limit them. She wrote back and strongly stated that I should not count calories and that I should eat to satiety. Calories, she said, were immaterial.

    When I was at my leanest (in my late 20s) I was eating a low-fat whole foods diet (no Snackwells!) and getting a lot of formal exercise as well as NEAT.

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  100. Diana,

    As I said on another post, I think the idea of a "settling-point" is more on par with what we're thinking. It can seem like semantics, but I think that the shifting that CAN happen with a settling point is a key difference from a SET point. If a point is SET, then it isn't supposed to be able to move. In that way, I am more on board with your ideas as they pertain to a settling point.

    Andrea,

    Thanks for the yo-yo links. I'll look at them when I can. I'm interested to see what they say about the physiological effects (and I agree that the psychological impacts of weight-cycling can be detrimental).

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