las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Friday, March 22, 2013

Terms of Detente.


First, it has been brought to my attention that Richard, who is not involved in this in any way other than devolving once again into derangement, has offered some terms to a detante.  Here is my response:  Remove all of your crap, apologize, make restitution and then read the science on my blog. That's it.   Same for Melissa.

It has also been brought to my attention by a true stalker that there is some "embarrassing" stuff out there about me.  Consider that it is not true and then consider this folks:   There are people out there, including but not limited to Richard who have made actionable statements.  If these impact the life I most certainly have outside of this blog, that's what is called damages.  That's the legal threshold to sue someone, which is usually pretty high, but I don't think any here would argue that this would not qualify if it ever comes to pass.   You can better believe that if pushed, I would spare no expense to hold those responsible to account.  Since I won't have a life (ha ha) I'll have a lot more time on my hands, and think how much more freeing being shackled by this would be.  This includes you Wooo. Speaking of which, take a good look,  all you paleo powers that be,  at who you are aligning with there, if not for my sake but because she and Peter Dobromylskyj have pretty much made their "careers" out of trashing Stephan Guyenet since AHS11.  Wooo better not be employed as a nurse if any of this makes my life difficult or hers will be made difficult as well.  This time that is a promise.  And Carole?


This stalker nonsense goes way back.  Gary Taubes could not have some utterly obscure anonymous blogger exposing his bad science journalism and lies about it.  I have no qualms using that word, because I can back it up.   Jimmy Moore "stalked me" and asked me to be on his podcast.  I was skittish about doing this and my email to him was in regards to protecting my then anonymity.  THE VERY FIRST THING HE DID WAS VIOLATE THAT TRUST AND SHARE MY EMAIL WITH GARY TAUBES.  It continued from there.  If I recouped off of the profits of his cholesterol book I'd donate everything to charity once legal expenses were covered.  Not sure I have a case there, but heck, if it gets to a point where I have nothing to lose?  Well, I'll have nothing to lose, right?

What is "funny", but not, is that this is all over me exposing bad science.  Go back and read what I've written.  One of the first line defenses of Gary was basically why would he lie, etc.  I proposed the obvious reason and -- gasp! -- used a $ in his name in like TWO (perhaps 3) posts THREE YEARS AGO.  The guy had a nearly 3/4 million dollar advance to write GCBC, and by his own accounts it ran out and he was late delivering GCBC.  In 2010, the "dumbed down" WWGF was to be released that still included the flawed (known to him) glycerol-3-phosphate "you can't store fat without carbs"  in it.  It is the only explanation for the response.

Look, I communicate outside this realm directly or indirectly with thousands of people who have through my work or the works of others escaped the low carb trap.  If it works for you DO IT.  Shout it out from the freakin' rooftops.  COME OUT with YOUR real name and story, ahem Stargazey etc.  Why does it threaten you so when someone does not do well on low carb, or at least it does not suit for the long term?   Jimmy Moore is profoundly unhealthy.  He is a bald-faced liar, just ask Stargazey.  He has brought all of this into the paleo realm.  HIM, not me.  Speaking of stalkers, mine links prominently to the website of one Ellen Davis.   I remember this woman from Jimmy's discussion board.  Low carbing with no results since 2008.  Finally, in 2011/12 she realized that was right all along and she must limit her intake to 1000 cal/day to lose weight.  This was posted sometime last year (I can look up a latest possible update on FB because someone asked me about her website there).  She attended NMS that year (or something Jimmy was at) and I saw a picture of her.  Let me be clear, I am NOT disparaging her for her weight, but 77 lbs down or however much she was down, she (like I) has weight left to lose.  At her size, 1000 cal/day should have the weight dropping off of her like crazy, and yet 1500 she would likely gain???   THAT IS DIETARY HELL PEOPLE,  BEEN THERE DONE THAT.  In my case after losing roughly 100 lbs, the scale stopped moving for me too.  Dana Carpender is doing 1000 cal/day fat fasts these days to maintain her weight after 15 years of fighting that low fat lie.  Jimmy ballooned up to 300 lbs before his current extreme diet.  Nikoley listed Laura Dolson (About.com) and Andrew Dimino's Carbsmart (with Amy Dungan, Dana & Jimmy) as good LC resources recently.   Search this blog for where I expose them all.

If you are a diet and/or fitness guru -- WHICH I AM NOT -- you should at the very least be getting results with your diet/fitness regime.  Where I deviate from science here it is to point that out.

There's a backlog of comments to be approved in the order I deem fit (IOW if I feel the need to respond it will sit a bit longer).  I'll get to it when I can.

50 comments:

Mirtika said...

Don't need to post this. Just that it should be "detente."

Ron said...

Get a life, that is All.

Charles Grashow said...

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/03/morning-observations-brothels.html

If you saw the update to my offer of detente, yesterday, the offer is off. Not that I had the slightest inclination to seriously think there would even be a negotiation—it was simply to have something of record to point to in the future. Though, the offer was sincere and serious. It's simple, really. Those two miscreants—in the worst sense of the word—operate under two delusions, that 1) my stature in the Paleo community is mostly driven by various high profile folks who promote what I do from time to time. Hence, the efforts to publicly shame them into denouncing me, ignoring me, or whatever. And 2) They assume that writing c-word laden rants about them harms me and helps them, and so in the words of McEwen, "He doesn’t have anything to negotiate with."

So whether it's calling some chicks the c-word in a rant, blogging about drinking too much or lighting up now & then, or taking a toke of herb.

SO - alcohol, tobacco and weed - lead to an all milk diet - my oh my

T said...

What is strange is that I often feel pity for Nikoley. I'm hesitant for even posting this. But I read his stuff and think about how miserable he must be.

Yeah, I know, he's reprehensible and deserves scorn. I can't disagree with that. But he tries so hard to create a false persona and to be able to brag about his site stats and to brag about his online "friends" that it's painfully obvious that he's horribly, horribly miserable.

Gwen said...

Oh Evelyn. I have not had a look at Dick's blog in a couple of years as I can't stand him and do not want to contribute to his precious blog numbers. So the only way I knew of what he was up to is through your blog. However, I decided to take a look at Melissa's Tumblr. Unbelievable. Why oh why do the "men" in the "paleo" world not call him out on his filth? And by the way, has he joined a gang of street thugs now? What's with the street thug lingo?

Please do not make any agreement with this very pathetic and sick person. There is no way he needs to be allowed to determine any sort of "peace plan". You have done nothing wrong. If these people promoting their diets and supplements and training want the attention on them for their products then they can expect to take criticism. In fact, if they so believe in their schtick they can damned well defend it - respectfully. In the spirit of good science and good debate. Why does their need to be such hatefulness? They need to defend their silly products and beliefs without the butthurt.

Travis Culp said...

I believe his "stature" is driven by overeating.

Does a milk diet for an adult cause bipolar?

Charles Grashow said...

I wonder how his wife feels? Does she read his blog?

Unknown said...

My new e-book will be available at Amazon on Monday:

"The Filth And The Fury: Inside The Sordid Underbelly Of The Paleo Diet Cult"

Charles Grashow said...

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/03/madness-proposal-detente.html#comments

Richard Nikoley // Mar 22, 2013 at 13:34

Eddie

I’m really a putz hacker bullshitter when it comes to diet and nutrition, with a few noteworthy bright moments (I think Im the best source overall for dental health and K2, for example). Biochemistry? Solemn bow to even Evelyn. See, Im honest.

But now sweet Evie has stepped into my own profession, one I’ve made millions on and payed more millions to 30 employees in fighting lawyers on often very antagonistic terms over 20 years. I have been threatened with lawsuits from actual lawyers dozens of times and a couple of times, really happened and I kicked their ass, and I did it pro se for fun, even though I retain one of the top law firms in the US. Hint. Anyone remember a certain CA governor who got booted? He went back to a certain lawfirm.

Still working on the title of perhaps one of the funniest posts I may ever draft, but something like “taking Evelyn to law school” is my working title.

coconutz said...

Looks like RN is back to re-claim his role as Freddie Quell.

For the Cause!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9oZDKFoCqAw

Timthetaco said...

That Carbsaner blog fascinates me. It hasn't even been around for a month, it has 51 entries, all of them dedicated to you, and the blog's entire purpose is to expose you as a deranged stalker with several personality disorders.

And near as I can tell, she doesn't notice the irony. Low carb truly fried that woman's brain.

Diana said...

Jaminet has revealed himself to be a phony. Since he likes to quote Scripture and Maimonides, I looked up the latter's writings on profanity and found this:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/cffaw7c

Which I tweeted to Jaminet.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

You don't need a law degree to see that what he did last Fall is actionable.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

:)

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

There's a lot of excitement about paleo apparently going to be featured on Oz. First, I thought he was a fraud so why would they want him to promote paleo? But secondly, the mainstream doesn't work like their cult which is why David Duke lives somewhere in Europe. Oz's audience is mostly "Oprah women" ... the media would have a field day with this.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

She co-owns his gym so she is involved in the business. Interestin sponsors he's yukkin it up about in this podcast: http://kiwi6.com/file/d04l0y6dzd (Ep 168 about first 4-5 min edited out computer problem chat)

Charles Grashow said...

A little Dick said

"I’m really a putz hacker bullshitter when it comes to diet and nutrition, with a few noteworthy bright moments (I think Im the best source overall for dental health and K2, for example). Biochemistry? Solemn bow to even Evelyn. See, Im honest."

Jason Sandeman said...

Honestly, evil Dick is just a one dimensional character. A boring one at that.
As for the "I'll stop doing this if you do this?"
Classic behavior I would expect from a child like mine. There's this awesome program out there called 1-2-3 Magic. We should implement it with this clown.

Beth@WeightMaven said...

OTOH, he has done a good job in his apparent role as paleo's hockey enforcer. I realize it's hard not to respond, but we're now talking about him. He's probably thinking "job well done" ... and I hate to think who may well be agreeing with him.

Craig in CT said...

I am not going to take sides on this. In fact, after this post I will try to turn away & studiously ignore the whole drama. But I just wanted to observe that it should be no surprise why real scientists largely give the blogosphere a wide berth.

If I were Guyanet, I'd shut off comments & just have my say, as the spirit moved me.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

It's like the abusive boyfriend/husband. "I only hit you cause you did something stupid. You brought this on yourself. If you don't wanna get hit, then do X and Y and Z and don't piss me off. Then everything will be fine."

Travis Culp said...

Problem with all of this is that you guys are trying to starve a hyena by throwing steaks at it (maybe baby bottles would be more apt?). I'm sure this turd crunched the numbers and realized that any reduction in previously loyal readers has been more than made up for by hits from people who despise him but can't look away.

He never had legitimacy, so he's not losing anything. Meanwhile his traffic is probably spiking higher than ever. Oftentimes the best way to deal with a petulant child is by ignoring it.

Something to consider.

river rance said...

Ask 10 people purporting to be "paleo" and likely there will be 10-different descriptions of their diet/lifestyle. Some in the so called community believe the earth was formed about 8,000 years ago others are eating "paleo" brownies,some are on dairy only diets, another is eating 85% fat, Huh? They're starting to show signs of a right wing "lunatic fringe" behavior. So as Robb Wolf put it (I'm paraphrasing ) "if we can't get a united effort going here, me and Sisson will just paddle our own boats". Oz and Ornish made Taubes look like a blithering idot. Jimbo Moore was afraid to go on the show, and folks, he's one of the biggest attention hounds you'll ever encounter…don't care what his reasons were…fact probably is he knew his debate wouldn't hold water on that forum. So why the excitement someone( probably Wolf) gonna come off looking foolish and wacked out…JM's working overtime on the "silly ass cruise" cause Mary Vernon is off the speaker list (bail bondsman won't let her leave the country) I think she spoke last year and that video has been scrapped as well on the site. Believe me, Leonard Elmore, could not make some of these pale peeps up.

Beth@WeightMaven said...

Actually, if Alexa is to be believed, his overall traffic is down from where it was back in the day.

coconutz said...

"Oftentimes the best way to deal with a petulant child is by ignoring it."

That says it all for me. FTA , JimKKKins , Rob Wolf all a waste of time.

blogblog said...

Carbsane said:
'If you are a diet and/or fitness guru -- WHICH I AM NOT -- you should at the very least be getting results with your diet/fitness regime. "

I completely disagree. One of our local personal trainers is a PhD qualified exercise scientist and former Olympic coach. He is also middle aged and somewhat obese. Despite being a brilliant trainer he gets relatively few clients because most people would rather pay some ignorant young moron with good genes [and/or a good drug supplier] to train them.

Most celebrity trainers make money because they have good genes or abuse steroids - not because they know anything about exercise or nutrition. One of our local fitness experts is a PhD qualified exercise scientist and

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I generally avoid Nikoley and I think that is what bothers him most. It is clear this is a traffic grab -- he has once before said "lookie at me over here E&M, I'm your target". Not biting.

What I will expend electrons on at this point is exposing the so-called upstanding members of this community for what they are. First, foremost and always, out to make a buck. And when I point that out they'll say I'm envious or that I'm knocking making a living. I am not knocking making an honest living. Most of what goes on in the IHC is based on fantasy and outright lies packaged in a loin cloth and labeled science.

markgillespie said...

"Most celebrity trainers make money because they have good genes AND abuse steroids"

FTFY

Harry said...

As an exercise scientist, your PhD personal trainer's main purview is physical performance, not body composition (physique/aesthetics). So, in that case, his body fat levels are not relevant.

If, however, he was a 'diet guru', offering sage advice on how to 'get in shape and stay in shape', then his capacity to follow his own advice is salient...for one simple reason.

Namely, if he is out of shape, that means either that (1) he is following his own advice and it is flawed or (2) he cannot follow his own advice(despite the fact that it poses a material threat to his business, his vanity, and his health), which suggests that it is impracticable.

Both options clearly speak directly to the validity of his advice.

Cheers,
Harry


Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I agree in part. I should be more specific because the folks I'm talking about are promoting their diet that they themselves eat and/or fitness regime they claim to follow themselves. Ditto having a condition one has learned more than all the doctors in the world about and fixing it through diet. It had better be fixed. This was always my point/problem with the LC community. In 2009 after losing a lot of weight but with more left to lose, I looked about the web. I found the LLVLC community and at that time, was looking at women of a certain age. All obese at the time and some still and some moreso. Then it was be healthy but we learn of all the health issues these people have. Then it's the ultimate fallback not to regain ... you know the drill. At least with paleo most of the purveyors walk the walk and look the part, but just the other day came another "confession" by a "trusted name" who it turns out has been suffering with fatigue for the past two years.

The fat coach doesn't say eat like me, they say if you eat like X and train like Y I can make you look/perform like X&Y -- oh, and BTW here are some of my other clients. I believe I've given Robb props in that area, though he is clearly both a personal example and a trainer.

Where I disagree is that I never said everyone who looks the part is a qualified fitness guru.



Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I 'm going to give props where due. To her credit, Dr. Cate Shanahan backed out of the cruise as well.

Charles Grashow said...

Richard definitely has way too much time on his hands

First in his manifesto

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/03/lemons-lemonade-documentary.html
This is a new series, consecutively numbered, to come out each weekend (longer at times when the dust has settled for a while). Its purpose is the simple, objective documentation of injustices; the trashing of good people and their good work, by coordinating principle parties and their followers and helpers: Melissa McEwen of Paleo Drama and Evelyn Kocur of The Carb-Sane Asylum.

Each issue will be a catalog of those whose efforts were trashed, what their basic value is to the Paleo / Low-Carb / Ancestral community, and on what bases they have been besmirched. It's offered without vitriol, vulgarity, or judgment beyond the simple implicit one: that such destructiveness is not helpful to anyone, and likely harms people on net.

The following covers the period March 15 through March 22, 2013, i.e., one week of trashing. Items are tagged with (PD) for Paleo Drama, (CS) for CarbSane, or (PDCS) for both sites. Subsequent issues will include all instances of trashing for the previous week or so, as well as a section running back in time from March 15, 2013, such that every act of trashing and destruction will eventually be accounted for, back to day one. It's anticipated to be a longish term project.

Comments are always closed (not what this is about). Email submissions and suggestions are welcome (address on my About Page).

As mentioned, comments are closed, as that is not what this is about. This is about documenting, and in so doing, exposure via Google search over time. So, if you want to help, then link to these documentary issues on your blog or website, and it would be helpful to include the names "Melissa McEwen" and "Evelyn Kocur" in your posting. For those who don't have a site, then signify your support for this effort and those Value Producers through Retweets, Facebook likes and postings, StumbleUpon submissions, and Google+ submissions. I had considered making the html source available in a text file for easy duplicate posting of the relevant part, but I'm unsure whether that would compromise Google indexing or not. I'm happy to hear from an expert on that score via email.

...As a final note for whomever may be wondering, no, I am not the slightest bit concerned over Evelyn Kocur's threats of legal action against myself or any of the others she implicated. Her ideas as to the legal merits, costs of litigation, time & effort involved, and potential monetary recovery are to put it as objectively as possible, misinformed. There's no need to address that any further.

Afterthought: I've unpublished my 3 vitriolic posts from last week surrounding the matter. This, as a gesture to signify my resolve in this far more important project and to make it harder to undermine, if that would even be possible.


As for CarbSaner

http://carbsaner.blogspot.com/2013/03/richards-new-project.html#more

Luckily I'm not Evelyn.

I have spent 3 years feeling almost physically sick at the way that woman has mercilessly abused people. I have received some upsetting emails in the last couple of weeks from people who have suffered real depression for 2 years down to Evelyn's bullying. And someone close to me took her own life to escape a cyber bully, who said things online very similar to what Evelyn says.

river rance said...

Good for her, and modicum of self respect.

Kade Storm said...

"Both options clearly speak directly to the validity of his advice." -- Harry

Can't say that I am in entire agreement with you there, Harry, especially the quoted part. Scenario two definitely doesn't speak to the validity of the advice since one would have to be fully appraised on the full situation and circumstantial make-up of the individual who gives the advice but is unable to, or refuses to follow said advice themselves.

The only way I see that happening is if we're endorsing pretentious nature of superficial appeal in determining what is valid or invalid, in which case we're just reinforcing what Blogblog is saying and the idea of actual validity has been reduced to a farce.

Charles Grashow said...

Items are tagged with (PD) for Paleo Drama, (CS) for CarbSane, or (PDCS) for both sites.

Jimmy Moore (LLVLC) — Jimmy Moore is the most popular and prolific Low-Carb blogger in history. It would take far too much space to actually account for all the stuff Jimmy does and maintains, so here's a list of it all: blog, books, forum, three podcasts (one with over 400 interviews of everybody in diet & health you can name), a YouTube channel, annual Low-Carb Cruise. In addition, he attends just about every major conference, presenting at some, and reporting back on the others. He's active on Twitter, Facebook, and always returns emails. He is very honest and open about his own struggles and doing such makes him a very easy target.

Posting a derogatory Amazon book review of Paleofantasy: What Evolution Really Tells Us about Sex, Diet, and How We Live (PD)

Not having "proper" cholesterol numbers (CS)

Promoting a supplement (CS)

Engaging in a ketogenic diet (CS)

Engaging in a fast (PD)

Charles Grashow said...

@Evelyn

I'm now your "coach" in the fight with Nikoley!!

http://thelowcarbdiabetic.blogspot.com/2013/03/richard-animal-nikoley-versus-evelyn.html
Richard ‘The Animal’ Nikoley versus Evelyn ‘Clubber’ Kocur The fight is on !

Well folks the fight we have all been waiting for. A 15 round title fight between Evelyn ‘Clubber’ Kocur and Richard ‘The Animal’ Nikoley. For years these two old bruisers have been avoiding each other in the ring, but now it’s on. Get your ticket early to avoid disappointment, this is going to be a fight to remember. The rumour mill is working overtime, evidently The Animal has stepped up his training program, and is on a milk and kefir diet and getting back to his best fighting weight. Clubber has retained her long time trainer Grizzly Grashow and dumped the donuts.

Boxing insiders never thought this fight would come off, considering Clubber to be way out of The Animals league. The informed money is going on The Animal and forecasting a world of pain for Clubber. Long time fans of The Wooo aka ‘The Whirlwind’ were disappointed when she backed out of her fight with Clubber due to contractual problems and threats of legal action. One thing is for sure, The Animal won’t be backing down and Clubber is taking this fight very seriously.

The Sun


GRIZZLY GRASHOW!!

Dave said...

I cannot even fathom someone being a bigger "dooche" that this guy.

"I have spent 3 years feeling almost physically sick at the way that woman has mercilessly abused people." After the crap he has posted he is really saying this?!?!?!? Tell that to Durian Rider or any other vegan you have trashed over the years, or compare it to any of your post over the last couple months. Dude must be a brazen sociopath

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=10264

Harry said...

More than happy to throw in a ceteris paribus on my analysis Kade. Apart from that it stands.

People should exemplify their own claimed expertise.

I would, for example, be wary of taken financial advice from a multiple bankrupt.

Cheers,
Harry

coconutz said...

Note to Carbsaner, I hope you are using a fake pic and handle. It's much easier to delete and move on after the VLC induced CRAZY wears off and you re-adapt to carbs. Worked for Me!

an3drew said...

It's pretty clear that Carbsaner is making a big play for attention for some reason. She'll surely fall to the wayside fairly quickly.

Diana said...

blogblog,

You do make a good point. I agree with you that a trainer, coach or teacher need not be cosmetically gorgeous. I have an analogy for you. Big league sports coaches were once athletes. Most professional dancers, unless they marry rich, become teachers. They are by def. over the hill by the time they get to the coaching/teaching stage. In the past it was common for these veterans to go to seed after retirement (not so much now).

It is ironic - they demonstrate physical and nonverbal skills with words and rough gestures, no longer being able to actually do the movements they are trying to convey to their students.

Your local trainer to which you refer falls into that category - and yes, I would listen to him over a lot of people.

But here's the thing. Evelyn has been skinny. She's also been 100 pounds heavier than now. She's walked the walk in terms of the wrong way to lose weight. She (and I and everyone who has "taken refuge" here) has worked their way through the LC dogma about calories and carbs. Now we see the same thing happening with "Paleo" - another scam. So we speak out. What more do you want?

And I also agree with you about celebrity fitness coaches. I also think they are not even attractive - I've developed a distinct loathing for visible abs, and popping muscles on women, which I think are UGLY UGLY UGLY.

Evelyn - I'm not saying you are over the hill!!!!

Diana said...

"I have spent 3 years feeling almost physically sick at the way that woman has mercilessly abused people."

Really? I doubt that.

Diana said...

Yes, her whole "shtick" is intended to be anti-Carbsane but really, it is self-parody. She keeps charging Evelyn with not having a life - so, her life has devolved to obsessing about a woman who has no life? This makes sense...how? Whatever.

Happy Easter and Passover to all who celebrate! Let these holy days remind us - there are bigger fish to fry. And matzah to fry as well.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

Yeah, I'm not buying that. I'd buy, "She upset me". But "I'm legitimately depressed and it's affecting my activities of daily living", no. I have suffered from depression since childhood, and I've been bullied, and I don't take that lightly. I know how depression affects daily life--when it's active, I can go a week without showering, can go on binge-eating, can sleep more than half the day, won't leave the house, have crying jags, have suicidal desires. So, unless those folks were having their daily life and mood affected, then I'm not buying it. I will buy, "I don't like being called out for X or Y and she's getting on my nerves." But depression. No.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

But Dave, when The UnfreeAnimal abuses folks with foul language and chest-thumpy attacks, he's doing a civic service. When Evelyn calls out questionable interpretations of studies or the eating disordered ways of diet leaders, she's, she's, you know, she's that Big C thing.

(for the reading-comprehension impaired, that's sarcasm)

Lena said...

I shouldn't be surprised, but it kills me that Wolf is giving her positive attention. Even if I agreed that Evelyn is horrible person that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore when someone on my side is a moron. I felt so much second-hand embarrassment the one time I checked out that blog. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is actually not a smart policy.

Christopher said...

I actually can't believe Jimmy is openly endorsing her. One would think with his (at the very least) perceptive eye for good PR/publicity he would recognize over-the-top when he sees it. Guess not.

Jane said...

Dave, it was CarbSaner who said that, not Nikoley. Nikoley says some mind-bogglingly outrageous things but he does seem to be a human being. Not sure about CarbSaner.

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