Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Tuesday, May 3, 2011

Chris Masterjohn on Cherry Picking (and the Metabolic Advantage of Fructose)

... at least in rodents ;-)

Let Us Honor Ancel Keys, Our Patron, As We Cherry Pick Studies to Bash Fructose (Revised and Extended)

Hats off to you Chris!


Charles L. Peden said...

The PUFA equivalent in the rat diets he mentioned for a person who consumes 2500 kcal/day:

45% fat diet ≈ 21.7g PUFA
60% fat diet ≈ 27.7g PUFA

Typical PUFA consumption in SAD today ≈ 37g/day
100 yrs ago typical SAD PUFA consumtion ≈ 14g/day

PUFA consumption data based on information from this Indiana University website:

CarbSane said...

Perhaps you can explain what I'm missing in this post of Peter's:

The HF diet had half the veggie oil composition of the control chow. IOW in addition to the lard, HF vs chow swapped out some 3-odd% PUFA for lard. The keto diet contained more than 3X the veggie oil of the HF diet yet the mices shed weight.

Charles L. Peden said...

According to the chart, I estimate the PUFA in veggie oil to be 50% and lard 12%.

That gives the figures:

PUFA/Chow ≈ 3.25g/100g
PUFA/HF ≈ 4.134g/100g

The ketogenic diet was high in PUFA but had virtually no fructose with which to react (similar to the Inuit diet).

I am NOT a scientist and this is strictly my layman's theory and armchair quarterbacking.

Charles L. Peden said...

I was on a website that listed vegetable oil as having 40.94% PUFA and lard having 9.81% PUFA. That would change the figures to the following:

PUFA/Chow ≈ 2.6611g/100g
PUFA/HF ≈ 3.38169g/100g

You have to watch those estimates from non-scientists like me. Speaking of which:

REVISED--The PUFA equivalent in the rat diets Chris Masterjohn's website mentioned for a person who consumes 2500 kcal/day:

45% fat diet ≈ 19.31g PUFA
60% fat diet ≈ 23.39g PUFA

These new figures are based on 9.81% PUFA in lard and 55.78% PUFA in soybean oil.

However, the USDA nutrition database shows 11.2% PUFA by weight for lard and 57.74% PUFA for soybean oil.

Razwell said...

GENUINE SCIENCE has demonstrated fructose IS FATTENING.

Charles L. Peden said...

Genuine females have demonstrated that women are crazy.

Genuine philosophers have demonstrated that God exists.

Genuine pundits have demonstrated that politicians are bad for the government.

Genuine commenters have demonstrated that context is unnecessary.

Razwell said...

READ my blog Charles. You have much to learn about obesity, don't you?

CarbSane does NOT represent GENUINE SCIENCE.

Charles L. Peden said...

Regarding CarbSane and Anthony Colpo you say:

"They speak with 100 % certainty."

Then you say:

"No genuine science would ever do that!"

You say that as if you are 100% certain. However, it is false. Some things are certain and science does acknowledge that.

Here are some quotes to help you as you develop your philosophy:

"The existence of grey shades in no way implies the nonexistence of black and white or justifies abandoning the distinction therebetween."~~Paul Cooijmans

"It is shocking to see what hateful reactions one gets when one defends the speaking of truth, or even merely says that truth exists."~~Paul Cooijmans

CarbSane said...

Thanks Charles for your level headed responses. Razwell, I've moved several of your comments to my Spam folder. Please discontinue the irrelevant ranting and shouting. Thank you.

CarbSane said...

Hi Charles, I'm not sure we can make any meaningful extrapolation in PUFA content by % to a human equivalent in grams.

That said, your calcs point out something for those following high fat diets. Lard - aka pig fat - has a high PUFA content. In a "normal diet", obviously replacing all animal fat with veggie oils is going to increase PUFA exposure, but a high fat diet - the 60-75% for the "usual" LC, 80+% for the more extreme practitioners - is almost by default going to be very high PUFA.

Razwell said...

I AM GOING TO RISE YOU EVERYDAY AT MY BLOG CARBSANE AND EXPOSE YOU. As long as you pick onm Gary Taubes you will be picked on UNMERCIFULLY.

You don;t want to get into a pissing contest with RAZWELL . Trust me .


You will see what it feels like. I will EXPOSE ALL OF YOU - KRIEGER MCDONALD COLPO HALE and on and on. EVRYDAY

Only an arrogant Internet tawt could disregard Dr. Jeffrey Friedman as a TOP epxert.

Charles L. Peden said...

CarbSane, I suspected it wouldn't be a straight up equalization, but I wanted to be able to see a comparison. My proviso that I am not a scientist was warranted.

Although I'm personally convinced that PUFA plays a starring role in the rise of obesity, from my own experimental diet I can see that reducing PUFA doesn't instantly reverse the process. In fact, unless you are at death's door, I'm not sure you would want to reverse the process too quickly due to possible dangerous and/or unexpected consequences.

CarbSane said...

I've let Razzy's last tirade through. I pushed several to Spam so as not to clutter this place too much with trash and deleted post notifications. I encourage all readers to go to Razwell's blog - there I'm sure you can all be shouted at for line after line and will learn from GENUINE scientists and TOP EXPERTS. ;-)

Good luck with your blogging Raz ma taz!

Jay said...

Of course you can extrapolate from PUFA content by % to human equivalents in grams. Why wouldn't you be able to, if you know the calorie intake?

A high fat diet needn't be high in PUFA. From my Fitday report (1 Apr - to date):
Total calories 1762
Fat 123.1g (62%)
(54g)27% (10.1g)5% (30.8g)15%
Protein 71.1g 15%
Carb 100.1g 22%
Just don't swig vegetable oil - and that includes olive oil.

CarbSane said...

Hi Charles, I hope to get around to a "manifesto" of sorts for health (focusing on liver and IR) and body weight/obesity. I'm not really convinced on the evil role of PUFA's in either. In practice I think it's difficult to separate out a single fatty acid from how its delivered (aka junk food vs. avocado) and associated agents.

Are you trying to see if cutting PUFA's will lead to spontaneous weight loss in your experiment over at Jimmy's? (Forgive me if you said so there, I'm playing lazy not reading it over again)

Mirrorball said...

Whenever I read Razwell's badly punctuated, mistyped and devoid-of-actual-information comments in ALL CAPS, I'm sure he really must be a highly educated scientist ... just like Gary Taubes. ;)

CS, please block him from your blog. His brilliance and eloquence are wasted here, you know.

CarbSane said...

Hi Jay, Of course you can do the math, I'm just not sure it's relevant. Not so sure %'s are either, but maybe a little better? Rodents take in a lot more calories/g than do humans. But I do think it's instructive to look at alterations of the animal response to varying composition. An HF diet need not be high in PUFA, but it easily can be even w/o a veggie oil in sight.

CarbSane said...

@MB: LOL! Wish it were easy to do.

Tonus said...

Having your ignorance and lack of education exposed by someone who cannot distinguish between an apostrophe and a semicolon is the height of ignominy indeed.

(Or is that the depth of ignominy? Hmmm...)

Galina L. said...

If were Gary Taubes, I would block Razwell too. What an embarrassment to everyone (except, probably, REAL SCIENTISTS). I hope he would start reading blog Evolutionary Psychiatry There are a lot of information there about supplements useful for mental stability and clarity of mind. Don't worry,Razwell, Dr.Emily Deans recommends a low-carb diet.
Jokes aside, Evolutionary Psychiatry really is a very good blog.

Charles L. Peden said...

TXNIP may be a game changer. It's on Matt Stone's 180 Degree Health blog.

CarbSane said...

I just read that. I have some thoughts on it but they're probably too long for comments so I may blog on them instead.

Sanjeev said...

> TXNIP may be a game changer

the author on 180 doesn't trace his recommendations back to any study. I can't tell where his stuff comes from. or click

And what's the point of the anti-CICO rant? Has anyone ever denied different people can eat the same calories and get different results? Has anyone ever denied that any of the dozens of anabolic steroids can push calories into muscles instead of fat?

Straw man extraordinaire.

Bret said...

Uh-oh, Carbsane, the moment you and I have feared has come to pass - Razfool has thrown down the gauntlet. Now you can look forward to having your inbox deluged with infantile, undoubtedly misogynistic, perhaps racist, and overall harassing correspondence from this ultimate of losers. I am truly sorry. But please save some of them in the case that you are forced to file a complaint with the FBI. Never know when Razdummy might commit the first act of obesity dogma related terror!

At any rate, I think Chris Masterjohn is a great critical thinker and am glad you have brought attention to some of his work.

CarbSane said...

Hee hee, Razzy has now dedicated his blog to exposing me ;-) Should I feel honored?

Bret said...

That would be a dubious honor. Frankly, I think he helps those he opposes and hurts those he supports. Perhaps it is an elaborate reverse psychology plot started by Anthony Colpo :).

Even if he is serious, nobody visits his website anyway. Except maybe the morbidly curious.

As for Chris Masterjohn, the group he belongs to (WAPF) got me interested in a different way of looking at nutrition, such as the possibility of remarkably healthy primitive humans, soaking grains and legumes, raw dairy, etc. Yet they often are a bit pseudoscientific. Do you think you might be interested in offering your take on WAPF or Weston Price in a future article?

CarbSane said...

Anthony Colpo sure is a devious fella! LOL

I've heard a lot about WAPF but never really read all that much. Recently somebody over on Jimmy's forum posted this link about lipase supplements:
I suppose this would be an example of pseudoscientific. Perhaps I'll share some thoughts on this at some point.

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