las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Tuesday, March 27, 2012

Because you can never have too much fun ...

In honor of Jimmy's podcast with the new leader of the Insurgency, Peter "War on Insulin" Attia, MD, I've gotta introduce the latest in my series of Lego superhero analogies.  Attia is younger and considerably more photogenic than Taubes and puts a fresh face on the movement.  When Taubes introduced Attia on his blog, I just couldn't help but think "Boy Wonder" ... and it all started to fall into place.  

The "Dynamic Duo" of Taubes and Attia will from now on be known as Fatman and Glucagon here at the Asylum!  These two shall patrol Glutton City in their Fatmobile protecting its citizens from the dastardly deeds of team CICO. 

No analogy would be complete without identifying the everyday alter-egos of these two.  In the role of Bruce Wayne, we have none other than Jimmy Moore (has anyone ever seen Taubes and Moore in the same place at the same time?), and in the role of Dick Grayson, we will have Adam Kosloff.

Yours truly, of course, shall play the role of Catwoman ;-)  Nah, let's make that Carbwoman!!

Update:  I went looking for Lego Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson.  Had luck with the first, but not much with the second.  Except that I came up with something even better.  It seems that Dick Grayson got tired of being Batman's sidekick and struck out on his own as Nightwing.  I think this scenario fits Kosloff better ... we'll call him Gateking.  So allow me to introduce you to Jimmy Moore, as himself in Bruce Wayne's role, and Gateking!  Jimmy is holding on to Gateking's black box for him while he fights off the Calorie Wizards with his pool noodles.


38 comments:

ProudDaddy said...

Here's what I don't understand (along with a whole bunch of other things): Dr Attia says insulin is the great enemy, but he often starts his day with a whopping amount of whey protein. Have I misread all those studies about the insulin spike from whey being equal or even greater than pure sugar?

Lesley Scott said...

@P-Daddy You totally read my mind with your question! I remember reading a long piece on Ned Kock's site a while back about how protein generates huge post-prandial insulin spikes.

@evelyn....aha! you're right! no they've never been seen in the same place at the same time. Ignatius is so busted!

Karen said...

according to my glucometer it (whey protein powder) doesnt hurt me. But everyone is different

Nigel Kinbrum said...

It's lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read this or my lap-top would have ended up wearing it, via my nose. Bad Catwoman! Miaow! :-D

Sanjeev said...

your glucometer measures insulin?

Alma said...

+1

Sanjeev said...

I volunteer for the Frank Gorshin / Jim Carrey character (minus JC's anti-vaccine BS)

> But everyone is different

I ain't; I'm the same. The same as what I don't know, but the same.

Tonus said...

I guess the most appropriate response is along the lines of "Bah! You're no different than anybody else!"

Nigel Kinbrum said...

No. You're absolutely correct. See THIS

Declaring war on insulin is effectively declaring war on food (as insulin is a nutrient storage hormone). Dr Attia is effectively saying "Don't eat too much" (i.e. calories count)!

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Magic glucometer ;-p
With whey, the insulin spike cancels-out the glucagon spike.
Net result:- GI = ~0.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Meanwhile he boasts eating 4500-5000 cals/day now. I can't for the life of me understand why one would go into "nutritional ketosis" so they supposedly had to eat 1000+ more cals/day to sustain their 3 hr a day workout habit. But that's just me ;)

I'm more disturbed that someone with a medical degree would read GCBC multiple times with 4 different color highlighters and 4 different color page tab stickies and come away with over 20 pages of questions to ask the great Gary Taubes. That is troubling.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I've been suspicious ever since GT backed out of the LC Cruise. >:)

ProudDaddy said...

Yep, Nigel, but the fact remains that you heve a high level of "deadly" insulin in your veins! However, I know only that glucagon stimulates hepatic glucose production. If it also liberates adipocyte fats, then I guess Attia need not worry that his actions confuse his theory of obesity. However, what about things like diabetes? I don't subsribe to the theory that an overworked pancreas leads to T2D, but I'd guess most of the carbs-can-kill proponents do.
Speaking of which, is it hyperglycemia or hypo insulinemia that leads so many of us down the diabesity path? (OK, I know, it could be both.)

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Whey contains 4kcals/g. If Attia eats enough whey, he'll get fat (Bray's study showed this). He won't, though.

Diabesity? Hmm. Have you seen Insulin Resistance: Solutions to problems?

The obesity part is eating too much (for whatever reason) and moving too little (for whatever reason). The diabetes part is multi-factorial.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

He needs to be hand-cuffed to a bed in a Metabolic Ward ;-D Maybe he has very high NEAT due to the adrenaline surging through his veins all the time.

Whey powder = Very expensive glucose + very expensive wee.

Lesley Scott said...

"......while he fights off the Calorie Wizards with his pool noodles" ROTFLMAO :)

hmmm, this motley crew (excepting the fab feline, of course) needs some worthy superhero theme muzak, no?

ProudDaddy said...

You probably caught the typo -- meant to type hypERinsulinemia. Sorry -- darn tablets!
So, does glucagon have any effect on adipocyte lipid storage one way or the other?

Sanjeev said...

Anyone else seen these youtubes with the title template "sh*t that NNNN say", NNNN being vegetarians, yoginis, etc ... There ought to be a Taubes version.

here's 2 things recently from Stephan's that made me scratch my noggin

"people experience insulin making them gain weight"

(paraphrased, it was split up in 2 or 3 sentences in the original)

And our own beloved "NNNNN" could go down in the record books for the density per paragraph and the mindlessness repetitiveness of non sequiturs.

After making the same comment ten times, not even significantly changing the wording and convincing NO ONE, innit about time to bring in something new guvnor? Too bad "broken record" doesn't resound like it used to.

Sanjeev said...

> I know only that glucagon stimulates hepatic glucose production. If it also liberates adipocyte fats
__________
I've searched for repeated, verified proof that glucagon causes fat release from human adipocytes in vivo.

A few of the searches:
Still very little ...

All the standard textbooks at the local university library still say glucagon has very little effect in humans outside the liver.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1996.tb17471.x/abstract

and another search

And as far as glucagon opposing insulin ...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x723p6tdl0trfcnn/ or click

Wish I could see the full text of that one (that's all in vitro though ...)

Sanjeev said...

I especially love experiencing insulin's effect on my liver (it tickles) and gonads.

I experience the effect on my fat as a humorous poking sensation ... I could be mis-experiencing a weight gain as a poking though.

LeonRover said...

It is exogenously injected insulin that in many cases leads to high basal blood insulin and many of those put on fat.

My Type 1 stepson injects - and has not yet decided to "go" R K Bernstein. He like his bread & potato and injects.

Injected always has a decay rate from one injection to the next. It is difficult to get a median average.

Pulsatile it ain't - not like us ordinary folk, many of whom have never had a fasting insulin, so they do not know whether they are hyper or hypo.

I did five years ago: it was 3.4 IU.

ProudDaddy said...

Thanks Sanjeev! I think I once posted somewhere that glucagon gets no respect -- I might have been right!

Sanjeev said...

<tony robbins><oprah> that's a distinction that makes no difference </oprah></tony robbins>

Sanjeev said...

I requested clarification if they meant diabetics who choose to inject but none was forthcoming.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

According to Glucagon, glucagon is catabolic and it increases GNG & lipolysis.

Increasing lipolysis increases conversion of TAG -> Glycerol + FFAs.
Glycerol is converted into glucose by the liver & kidneys.
Un-burned FFAs enter adipocytes with glucose for conversion into TAG.

ProudDaddy said...

Thanks, Nigel. I had read that, but it was unclear to me whether the conversion of TAG was serum TAG, adipocyte TAG, or both. Then, of course, the question would remain as to whether glucagon is releasing as much fat as insulin is stuffing into the fat cells. And one is left to wonder why Mom Nature would design a system with two hormones that get produced only to directly cancel each other out. Surely, there must be some things each does that are different than just cancellation. For example, insulin may assist in glucose uptake by muscle cells while glucagon has no effect, etc.

garymar said...

Not Catwoman -- Carbwoman!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Excellent! I'm gonna have to change that!

ProudDaddy said...

I was really confused by the Wikipedia assertion that glucagon secretion is INHIBITED by insulin. That would seem to mean that the whey effect can't occur -- yet we know it does.
In the end, this is all academically interesting, but the big question remains whether hyperinsulinemia is a source of the problems of diabesity, or whether hyperglycemia is solely to blame. If the former, then Dr Attia needs to rethink his morning shake irrespective of his theory of obesity.

rodeo said...

I think the wiki is wrong on the glucagon-->lipolysis. Several studies does not show a roll for glucagon in lipolysis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11344211?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1991802?dopt=Abstract

I don't think neither hyperinsulinemia or hyperglycemia is a cause of diabetes. They are more likely a result of insulin resistance caused by overeating.

Personally I think the whey is the least of Boy wonder's problems. Good thing he eats something that isn't fat.

ProudDaddy said...

So, wrapping this up, if glucagon has no role in lipolysis, and whey protein spikes insulin, then either Dr Attia doesn't believe in the insulin theory of obesity or he isn't worried about getting fat and doesn't care if his recommendations fatten his followers.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I believe that Dr Attia does care about getting fat, which is why he doesn't eat too much during the day.

[Yoda]One meal does not a diet make, hmmm.[/y]

Sanjeev said...

Thanks so much Rodeo

Please post more if you know of them, showing more or less lipolysis in human adipoctytes, in vivo

Maybe I should search pubmed more than google, which sometimes gives too many hits to sort through all of them

Sanjeev said...

> glucagon gets no respect

for fat loss it's looking more and more like it __deserves__ none.

But like they discount ASP with thought experiments (not real experiments), the low carbers won't let facts and real studies get in the way of the

[ (protein -> glucagon) plus (protein ->insulin) ] reduces fat while
carbs -> insulin increases your fat stores"

dogma

ProudDaddy said...

Glucagon may not deserve respect in the fat loss domain, but it seems it might have a role in impaired fasting glucose -- a condition I have a personal interest in. So, have we decided Dr Attia needs to reassess his whey intake or not?

Sanjeev said...

there's the whole other issue of "whey builds muscle and casein maintains muscle".

Lyle's research reviews point to leucine (especially rich in fast-digesting whey) being anabolic in and of itself but not necessarily anti-catabolic, and a steady trickle of amino acids (as provided by casein) being somewhat anti-catabolic.

And insulin (even small amounts) blocking muscle catabolism.

large amounts of whey right before a workout, and during and immediately after appear to accentuate exercise's anabolism, carbohydrates in the same time frame minimize glycogen depletion's (ie exercise's) catabolic effect.

based on what Attia believes, "insulin makes you fat" Attia's wrong.

Based on what is IMHO "good science" Attia's kind of right, but only going half-way (he should have a lot of carbs around workouts)

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