Super High Fat Ketogenic Diets v. Paleolithic/Ancestral Nutrition
As the trend towards even higher fat diets continues in a faction of the community, it should become ever the more clear to those not engulfed in dogma that this is not consistent with our evolution. There is no way, repeat NO way, that our ancestors could have eaten a diet of the 80-10-10 variety -- as in 80% fat, and 10% protein, 10% carbs ... or any of the various higher fat lower carb ratios, perhaps allowing for an extra couple few percent of protein.
One would have to believe that humans evolved in an environment of such abundance where killing was accomplished with such ease, that they would kill another animal to eat just its fatty parts before consuming the meat. Does that sound plausible to you? Or that humans foraged for only fatty plant stuffs like nuts and fatty fruits like avocados and left the sugary and starchy stuff they may have happened upon in the process alone. Sounds right, eh? We're to believe that cultivation of plants has altered their sugar and starch content vs. the days of old, but domestication of animals and even "wild life" existing on the fringes of human developments has not altered the composition of said same ... even if fed a "natural diet" (e.g. grass fed beef). Your fatty fish are mostly around 60% fat or less. Are all these paleo lipophiles having seal oil and whale blubber shipped in from the Arctic?
The reality of the matter is that those consuming an 80+% fat diet are eating a diet that is unnatural for humans in every way. Paleolithic man did not have access to coconut oil by the spoonful, or time to argue the differences between coconut oil and coconut butter. And just as sugary fruits are seasonal, so too are fatty ones ... not to mention other reproductive forms of fats like eggs which you can be damned sure of they didn't toss the whites. There's no such thing as paleo mayo. Few if any of these nutritionally ketotic folks are getting fat scraps from the butcher to gnaw on for the mammoth's share of their energy. Most are eating a ton of dairy fat, be it cream, high fat cheese, cream cheese or butter (clarified or ghee of course) to supplement refined coconut fats. There are paleos who make allowances for the very real fact that large populations of humans are well adapted to dairy, but this is merely an allowance -- some would say a rationalization for convenience to optimize buy-in/accessibility/sustainability of the diet that would otherwise be too austere for widespread adoption. Still, dairy ain't a paleolithic era food. There isn't even a case to be made for dairy being a natural food for any adult mammals. You don't see it in nature, and it would have been the true odd "luck" for our prehistoric ancestors to have killed a lactating female animal ... though yeah, they probably would have eaten the mammary glands. Then they would have had milk. Not cream, not butter ... milk. Not kefir, not yogurt, not cheese... milk. Whatever was in the slain animal and none more.
It's so very odd to me this disconnect between what has transpired since last year's AHS and the one upcoming in a couple of days, with its ultimate make-up of the presenters. There is a decided trend in the community towards either eating or acknowledging having eaten all along, diets what could be described as anywhere from moderate carb to high carb amongst those claiming paleo roots. Meanwhile the Taubes-inspired low carb wing has suffered set back upon crippling set back to all but the most blinded by dogma. Yet despite this, when one looks at the final speaker lists and the panel makeups, you could swear it was a program for AHS09 or something. Not even the Kruse Missile Crisis seems to have stemmed the tide of the low carb hijacking of the greater ancestral community. The low carbers continue down this path of the less of anything associated with the term carbohydrate the better, despite the fact that there's not only scant scientific support for this lifestyle, there aren't even human cultures to witness the long term effects of such diets on.
Meanwhile we have billions of long-lived healthy cultures eating closer to the 80-10-10 carb-protein-fat proportions espoused by those derided routinely in this community. I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian, never have been, and don't see any reason ever to become one unless I contract that mysterious tick born meat allergy I heard about on the news a few months back. But my dietary preferences for animal proteins and dairy do not stop me from acknowledging the abundant scientific literature on ancestral human diets. Diets, I might add, that have been observed and quantified, not just guessed at and, in many cases, conjured up out of thin air. Sure, the quality of the carbs was different, but they were carbs -- digested and metabolized in glycolytic and related pathways, not the medium-to-long chain fatty acid beta oxidation pathway. Just don't remind the movers and shakers of such inconvenient facts. And just to make sure the "antagonistic" facts don't get in their way, expect to hear a goodly dose of that word "addiction" thrown around in the coming days as well -- though the butter addicts get absolution, it's only you carbaholics who are rationalizing bad nutritional advice. Don't expect to hear the truth about the ancestral diets of some well-known cultures in the community, especially those known to be ravaged by metabolic disease in the modern environment. Like the Pima in Arizona who used to eat far less fat and more carbohydrates before having a Western SAD diet foisted upon them. You probably won't get that at AHS12 ... it just doesn't fit in with the Taubes-inspired version of things this symposium seems designed to exhume and defend to the end. Sadly ...
Comments
He doesn't advise eat mostly fat & maybe some fat to pour on that. Also, he embraces vegetarians and their beliefs and rather than laughing at them, just advises them to eat more of the sat-fat from coconut & avocado & that way they can enjoy the health benefits of this way of eating without sacrificing what they're committed to.
Lalonde, like the rest of the smartypants wing of the "paleo" (or whatever you call it) movement (ie. Stephan G., KGH, Chris Kresser, Chris Masterjohn et al) in fact eschew this micro-focus on macro nutrients, especially given the wide variation in the macronutrient ratios of the various traditional diets - apologies in advance for dragging them out yet again, but the Inuit to the Kitavan. In fact, Lalonde said in one interesting interview with Evolution/This View of Life mag that attempting to replicate the Inuit diet - of whale blubber, which is from the sea, so very high in Omega 3s & iodine - with modern beef, is a joke. Sadly, a fattening joke. I wouldn't be surprised to see something pop up on Science Daily or pubmed one of these days correlating a loss of brain cells & the ability to think critically with getting more than 60% or 80% of your daily calories from fat.
"Nevertheless, using these contemporary hunter-gatherer societies (living mainly inland and in semi-tropical climates), Eaton and Konner saw that anywhere from 20-50% of their diet was obtained from meat and anywhere from 50-80% of their diet came from vegetation. However, populations in artic regions – like that of the Eskimos – derive as little as 10% of their diet from plant-based sources. Therefore, if my calculations serve me right, the ranges of nutrients potentially run anywhere from 20-90% meat-based and anywhere from 10-80% plant-based. To me it seems as though there was not one single hunter-gatherer-type diet."
http://pcwww.liv.ac.uk/~gowlett/GowlettCJNE_13_03_02.pdf
"John Gowlett argues that in no way there could have been only one “Stone-Age diet.” This is due to various geographical limitations, such as food variety and climactic changes, which would require various nutritional adaptations to be undertaken in order to survive in a given region. Therefore it can be determined that humans did not evolve eating any one type of diet, but rather an all-encompassing and extremely varied diet that would allow for adaptive survival given their geographic location/conditions. This is exactly what was seen in our more recent hunter-gatherer proxies. But does that stop the Paleo zealots from prescribing strict nutritional guidelines?"
http://nutridylan.com/2012/04/24/the-paleo-manifesto-pt-ii-weak-evidence-for-the-hunter-gatherer-way-8/
Then we have the traditional Okinawan Diet which is 85% carb, 9% protein and 6% fat
http://okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_diet_2007_1114_434s.pdf
The Kitavan Diet which is appx 69% carb, 21% fat and 10% protein
There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL THAT ANY HUNTER GATHERER SOCIETY ate a low carb diet because they chose to - the Inuits ate between 6-15% carb because there were NOT MANY CARBS available
Everywhere early humans went they met huge, fat creatures with absolutely no fear of man and wiped them out. There probably was a great deal of waste - these were not environmentalists.
Inuit are not the only people living on all-animal high fat diets. Reindeer herders, yak herders, and so on have no time to stop and grow turnips or pick fruit in the snow. Herding animals is the other arm of the neolithic revolution and allowed persistence of paleolithic eating habits.
Sure, people will eat anything. They will even eat each other when big game becomes extinct, which tells you something about their natural preferences.
The women would forage for tubers and whatnot, and the men would go out hunting. The show claimed that this was evolutionarily typical. They also claimed that the women on average brought in more calories than the men.
That show left a strong impression in my mind. It's different actually seeing something rather than just reading about it.
I feel pretty good about eating tubers and fruit now.
I hear the smoothie section is 'to die for'.
- Most of us are vitamin d deficient...even kids
- Poor magnesium status (Vanadium, chromium, etc.)
- We live by light bulbs rather than natural rhythms of the sun
- Sleep deprived
- Stressed
- Exposure to endocrine disruptive
- Modern dwarf wheat?
- Formula fed rather than breast fed
- Couch potato lifestyles
- etc.
It seems to me that a lot of thing have to be "just right" for a high carb diet to work. I don't see those factors being in place for us these days.
Not saying all of us need to be on keto-diet....but perhaps 20% to 30% carbs would be a good starting place for most. Especially us somewhat older folks who don't handle carbs as well as we did in younger days.
I think the "eat lots of healthy saturated fat" is overblown and a huge unknown. For example (as Lesley points out) adapting an Inuit diet to a beef fat diet is pretty whacked. I compared the fatty acid content of seal oil to beef here: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/04/fatty-acid-contents-of-foods-beef-fat.html
At least in this study, http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf, F/P/C averaged 47/45/8.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf_OWun4Y04
Origins Of Us 1/3 Bones (BBC Documentary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMzBmSVlLvs
Origins Of Us 2/3 Guts (BBC Documentary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geh1mdsFk2k&feature=relmfu
Origins Of Us 3/3 Brains (BBC Documentary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad0ELPLANWM&feature=relmfu
"Great Apes and the Evolution of Human Diet" by Craig Stanford, PhD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQsTDt95fEI
Paleo Diet | Doug McGuff MD | Biochemistry of the Paleo Diet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PdJFbjWHEU&playnext=1&list=PL7A92D82C1945FFD7&feature=results_video
I like some saturated fat in my diet because I think it helps in recovery from exercise and helps maintain testosterone levels but I don't have a peer reviewed study to back that up, I mostly go on my personal experience cause I'm a selfish person who doesn't really care about anyone else.
Could be that consuming other types of fat would have the same effect but I enjoy eating beef.
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/UMICH/umma/Home/Research/John%20Speth/text/2011%20Spethetal%20%28Paleoindian%20Provisioning%29.pdf
It definitely dispels some of the more romantic notions of hunter gatherers. It's like, basically the men hunt because it gives them an opportunity to bro out together. :)
It’s long been believed that a hunter-gatherer lifestyle involves considerable physical activity and therefore burns many calories, far more than are incinerated by your average American office worker each day. And it was true, the scientists determined, that the Hadza people in general moved more than many Americans do, with the men walking about seven miles a day and the women about three.
But it was not true that they were burning far more calories. In fact, the scientists calculated, the Hadza’s average metabolic rate, or the number of calories that they were burning over the course of a day, was about the same as the average metabolic rate for Westerners.
The implication, the scientists concluded, is that “active, ‘traditional’ lifestyles may not protect against obesity if diets change to promote increased caloric consumption.” That is, even active people will pack on pounds if they eat like most of us in the West.
The underlying and rather disheartening message of that finding, of course, is that physical activity by itself is not going to make and keep you thin. (It’s worth noting that the Hadza people were almost uniformly slight.)
The overarching conclusion of that study, which was published last week in the journal PLoS One, is not really new or surprising, says Dr. Timothy Church, who holds the John S. McIlhenny Endowed Chair in Health Wisdom at the Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Louisiana and who has long studied exercise and weight control. “It’s been known for some time that, calorie for calorie, it’s easier to lose weight by dieting than by exercise,” he says.
People stick with low-calorie diets more readily than they continue with exercise to drop pounds.
Hunter-Gatherer Energetics and Human Obesity
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040503#s4
Why do individuals not lose more weight from an exercise intervention at a defined dose? An energy balance analysis
http://areas.fmh.utl.pt/~analiza/Thomas2012_ObesityReviews_Why_do%20individuals%20not%20lose%20more%20weight%20from%20an%20aerobic%20exercise%20intervention%20at%20a%20defined_dose_InPress.pdf
The paleo gurus are putting a certain time period on a pedestal and glamorizing it, it's pathetic. If we really want to get to our roots then we should be eating bugs, leftover rotting animal carcasses and whatever we stumbled across and found we could eat. Any takers?
Your first part is correct in that we scavenged the kills from other animals, but the twist you add is a typical trend that diet gurus like to do.
6x Bananas a Day!? Meta-Analysis: Lower Glucose, Insulin and HbA1c Levels From 'Catalytic' Dose of 36g Fructose
As long as your only significant fructose source are whole fruits and the few vegetables that contain more than trace amounts of fructose, you can answer this question by taking a look at the data in figure 3. The small figures on top of the bars will tell you how many 100g servings of apples, dates, pears or tomatoes you can consume until you hit the catalytic limit*uhuhhh...*: 3.9x 100g servings, of apples, for examples, or 5x 100g servings of bananas, or a whopping 32.7x 100g servings of lemons... sounds plenty?
Notwithstanding, this ≤36g/day limit does certainly appears more or less arbitrary. This is all the more true in face of previous results by Livesey & Taylor, who could not find evidence that such a thing as a "threshold dosage" for the Hb1AC improving effects of fructose even exists (Livesey. 2008) or the fact that a "low-GI fruit intake [and not the number of servings of fiber-laden cereals!] was the strongest independent predictor of [lowered] HbA1c" in a 2011 6-months low-GI diet experiment by Jenkins et al. who compared Kellog's... ah, pardon me, I meant the medical orthodoxy's gold standard, the high-cereal fiber diet in 152 participants with type 2 diabetes with a simple low-GI diet (Jenkins. 2011).
http://suppversity.blogspot.de/2011/06/carbohydrate-shortage-in-paleo-land.html
Carbohydrate Shortage in Paleo Land: New Data for A Scientific Outlook at the Low-to-No Carb Paleo Confusion. Will More Than 125g of Carbs Make You Fat?
Over the last years, the "Paleo lifestyle", once some sort of esoteric "back to the roots" movement, has attracted more and more followers and has long become a multi-million dollar business. Somewhere in the course of this process, however, the original idea, which was to look at the nutritional history of humanity to identify those nutritional strategies that have been working for humanoids for ten-thousands of years, got lost. Mainstream paleo has turned into an obscure cult the members of which add food item after food item to their lists of "bad foods", the consumption or rather non-consumption of which distinguishes the "real" from the 99% paleo-eaters. Yet, while eating gluten-containing (the paleos would probably say "contaminated") foods has, probably not without reason, been considered a deadly sin, all along, carbohydrates in general have only recently moved up in the ranks of the worst offenders of a neolithic paleo-lifestyle. Being infiltrated by renegades from the low-fat and low-carb camps the Paleo diet is misinterpreted by more and more of its followers (mostly children of the fat-phobic 1980s) as a high protein, low-fat, no-carb diet. Looking at this unfortunate trend one could certainly go nuts, if, yes if nuts had not been added to the paleo-food-ban-list, lately, as well...
BTW Woodey thanks for that point. Wild carnivores have extremely powerful jaws and are not likely to leave behind fatty parts because they couldn't get to them!
According to this paper wild fruits contain just as much if not more sugar then domestic fruits
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/bec/papers/Schoeninger2.pdf
along with this book Lost Crops of Africa
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11879&page=185
For many people who didn't grow-up in a tribe (and are more carbohydrate sensitive then somebody like Dr.Oz) it is easier to make a transition close to an ancestral diet from a modern one while consuming mostly highly satisfying protein and fat + some veggies while not overeating and practicing IF. It is more difficult to overeat on LC, but there are a lot of people who are up to the challenge, so just eating LC is not an imitation of a paleo-style eating.
I try to imagine a world in which 'physical activity by itself' had any meaning at all. There's caloric intake, necessary to live. Can you do 'physical activity by itself'? Ah, if that were only an option! So, overconsumption of calories without a deficit resulting from physical activity = a fat body.... yep.
Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Nutrition professor's "convenience store diet" helped him shed 27 pounds
Haub limited himself to 1,800 calories and two-thirds come from junk food
His body mass index went from 28.8, considered overweight, to 24.9, which is normal. He now weighs 174 pounds.
But you might expect other indicators of health would have suffered. Not so.
Haub's "bad" cholesterol, or LDL, dropped 20 percent and his "good" cholesterol, or HDL, increased by 20 percent. He reduced the level of triglycerides, which are a form of fat, by 39 percent.
"That's where the head scratching comes," Haub said. "What does that mean? Does that mean I'm healthier? Or does it mean how we define health from a biology standpoint, that we're missing something?"
Haub's sample day
Espresso, Double: 6 calories; 0 grams of fat
Hostess Twinkies Golden Sponge Cake: 150 calories; 5 grams of fat
Centrum Advanced Formula From A To Zinc: 0 calories; 0 grams of fat
Little Debbie Star Crunch: 150 calories; 6 grams of fat
Hostess Twinkies Golden Sponge Cake: 150 calories; 5 grams of fat
Diet Mountain Dew: 0 calories; 0 grams of fat
Doritos Cool Ranch: 75 calories; 4 grams of fat
Kellogg's Corn Pops: 220 calories; 0 grams of fat
whole milk: 150 calories; 8 grams of fat
baby carrots: 18 calories; 0 grams of fat
Duncan Hines Family Style Brownie Chewy Fudge: 270 calories; 14 grams of fat
Little Debbie Zebra Cake: 160 calories; 8 grams of fat
Muscle Milk Protein Shake: 240 calories; 9 grams of fat
Totals: 1,589 calories and 59 grams of fat
Stefansson writes about how rabbit starvation was a real problem and they would always dip their lean meat in some kind of oil. However, I really doubt even doing this they were hitting 80% fat. Although the Eskimo weren't big veggie eaters, they did like berries. He also explains that no one drank oil straight, which a lot of the serious high-fatters seem to.
I guess my point is the Eskimo would come the closest to the keto diet, but they really don't seem to have hit it. Maybe during a famine when all they had to eat was oil and moss. How's that for salad? :)
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during
massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man
I know a moss salad was a joke, it just I want to tell I noticed while playing with a Fitday that eating a lot of green salads or broccoli or sauerkraut (I put an olive oil into it) mostly adds fat as a nutrition agent. Probably, lettuce with olive oil is an almost nutritional tween of the moss with blabber.
Is is all just mine speculations, of course.
If anything, over the months I've seen a general trend towards more carb intake in the paleo/ancestral community.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I wrote in this post:
It's so very odd to me this disconnect between what has transpired since last year's AHS and the one upcoming in a couple of days, with its ultimate make-up of the presenters. There is a decided trend in the community towards either eating or acknowledging having eaten all along, diets what could be described as anywhere from moderate carb to high carb amongst those claiming paleo roots. Meanwhile the Taubes-inspired low carb wing has suffered set back upon crippling set back to all but the most blinded by dogma. Yet despite this, when one looks at the final speaker lists and the panel makeups, you could swear it was a program for AHS09 or something.
Or did you miss that?
The 80-10-10 was a "match" for the 80-10-10 of McDougall, but that's actually rather kind. Most doing the nutritional ketosis thing are doing something more akin to 85-10-5 or allocating an extra percent or two of carbs to protein. CANNOT be done with whole real foods.
"Nobody drinks large swigs of oil, or at least this habit is not known among Eskimos." "...during one famine period where there were six Eskimos with me, five of whom ate oil soaked up with feathers or caribou hair, moss or tea leaves, to make a kind of salad."
I think I'd choose moss over caribou hair, but maybe it's an acquired taste. :)
I will say aside from the cost, I was turned off to going to AHS12 because I felt like I wouldn't agree with half the speakers there anyway.
The LC blogs I read do not advocate a deep ketosis all the time, and I do not think it is reasonable to aim for it without a good reason (we discussed it many times before). However, I think that eating close to ketosis may benefit more people than just epileptics, people who are diagnosed with Parkinson, or attempting a quick weight loss.
Or, it may be that people who are severely vitamin D deficient eat very poor diets (again, due to the poor self care of mentally ill people) and are also anemic with insufficient b12 folate and iron and so are pale from that. I work with medical patients and typically that sort of sickly tired pallor look is related to anemia or blood loss from a bleed somewhere.
I would expect hyperparathyroidism to lead to vitamin D deficiency eventually due increased need for calcium absorption, so it may be that vitamin d insufficiency is pretty specific for hyperparathyroidism. The sad thing is you are catching it and not the GP, but then again most GPs don't run nutritional labs on patients even though they should, although most doctors where I work have started running vitamin D levels on patients due to all the press and hype surrounding it.
Paleo is a ridiculous stupid concept with no validity.
It's pretty much the same, but opposite, as those online spats between vegetarians, piscearians, lacto-ovo-arians, vegans, frutarians, raw vegetarians, etc.
It's like a bunch of nutjobs sat around making shit up and writing it down electronically & disseminating it on blogs and forums, like a manic penning a religious manifesto. Then momentum builds and you have TEH ONLINE WARZ and factions and drama.
Same thing here. Ultimately it's all rooted in bee ess.
I eat low carb because it is theraputic. I could give a flying crap less if me eating raw almonds and flax seeds is paleo or not, or if sucralose is teh evil. All I know is when I eat "normally", and yes this includes moderate carb, stuff stops working, most notably my brain. My brain mostly works in ketosis though so thumbs up for that.
No one argues whether or not any other medical treatment is good or bad based on its "traditional" origin, so why the hell do we apply that standard to dietary therapies for illnesses? This just in, antibiotics aren't natural or paleo. Go die of a tooth abscess now GTFO.
It's truly unfortunate so many consider her any sort of authoritative voice. She was supposed to speak on starches @AHS12 but the title of her talk has changed in recent weeks -- but high fat or VLC is same side of the coin, eh?
@Wooo: Whether you will actually listen to me when I say this or not, I'm saying it anyway -- I am supportive of the use of ketogenic diets for therapeutic purposes. I do however think that many (not necessarily you) attribute certain benefits to ketosis when they likely are not in ketosis. What I'm not supportive of is using such diets when not required. One way to look at this is let's say there's some supplement or drug shown effective in treating some condition, and a ketogenic diet is shown effective for same. But if a person doesn't have that condition, it makes no more sense to adopt a ketogenic diet than to take the supplement or drug.
Ketogenic diets are effective (in some) treatments for epilepsy. Should non-epileptics eat one to avoid becoming epileptic?
People can harp on me for "picking on" Jimmy Moore, but the fact remains that he is still very influential and is expanding that reach by selecting the experts he has on that new podcast. LC has been co-opting the paleo brand and this post was about that faction of militant low carbers who have done so (though some came from paleo) attempting to define the ancestral/paleo diet as increasingly low carb. But 80+% fat is incongruent with the supposed basis of paleo/ancestral.
I've said many times that I prefer ancestral, but the term isn't as catchy, but this sort of very high fat diet not a traditional human diet. It's not a natural diet for a rat either, and we see what it does to them. Personally I think looking to paleolithic humans for answers to this very recent epidemic is a little silly ... especially when there are so many examples of populations who go from traditional diets to the SAD and develop these problems. Blaming just the carbs served at McD's -- be it the sugary soda or the bun and potatoes in the fries -- for the obesity epidemic is even more silly. So, too, is blaming the EPIDEMIC (not all obesity, the EPIDEMIC) on some endocrinological fat cells gone wild theory.
That said, there are reasons to eat differently anyway. I would point out that keto diets were often dominated by O6 PUFA (corn oil) which has always been stuck in the back of my mind with the PUFA amount and ratio concerns.
I agree about paleo etc but a person would have to be willfully blind not to recognize all of those elements in LC.
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/03/me-dieting-low-carb-and-lc-web.html?showComment=1301527484787#c4896770888679143891
or click here
and another time we touched on what's happening ...
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/guyenet-v-taubes-random-thoughts-on.html?showComment=1313623285399#c1558663826136091528 or click here
It's Jimmy's story writ large. well ... larGER. [0][1]
I personally wonder if there have been some political "nights of the long knives", purges and putches at some of the paleo organizations.
[0] yes it's a cheap shot ... sue me
[1] rim shot, laugh track
Loads of farmers complain about the deer nosing around in their crops. What crops you ask? Soy and corn...lol. So those who hunt deer for sport probably know what their getting already...those who hunt out of misguided belief that those deer are somehow pristine [let's not forget about nosing through the trash and befouled water as well] well...they are getting their just deserts so to speak.
Jimmy Moore @livinlowcarbman
If you get the health lab data, then you've got to educate. #AHS12 ~ I'm writing a consumer's guide to reading cholesterol tests.
Jimmy Moore @livinlowcarbman
Attia: Atheroschlerosis is brought on by the presence of a sterol inside an arterial wall taken over by a macrophage. Nothing more. #AHS12
Now to the meat of these comments which is what sort of book Jimmy Moore is going to write on cholesterol. He has repeatedly exclaimed how his excessive LDL is the "protective" fluffy kind. It is interesting he tweeted about particle number that Attia apparently spent some time on in his talk. Jimmy's LDL-P was quite through the roof back in 2009 ... over 2000. Yet he was hanging his hat on having fluffy LDL. While large LDL pattern may be less associated with risk -- as in "less atherogenic" -- I've yet to see it described as "protective" in the way that higher HDL is often described.
Miss Cleo dons her hat and speculates: Moore approaches Attia to write a forward to his book. Attia agrees. Win-win except for those who buy the book.
I do not at all believe everyone needs to follow a low carb diet. I do, however, believe a lot of us who need to follow low carb diets are not following them.
TC - 254
LDL-C 188
LDL-P 1500
Small LDL-P 127
HDL-P 28.5
HDL-C 59
Trig 36
Insulin Resistance Score (LP-IR) 6 S/B <=45
http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=2456
Jimmy Moore
Administrator
Posts: 7,592
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #6RE: Got my NMR LipoProfile Results
Mark, thanks for your input and welcome to my forum! However, I refuse to go on a statin drug because it has caused real harm to my body in the past. Sure, the drugs were Crestor and Lipitor and not this "low-dose" version, but I'm not interested in that. I disagree that people HAVE to take a statin to improve their lipids. I've discussed my own personal numbers with a noted low-carb researcher and practitioner at Duke University in Durham, NC named Dr. Eric Westman. While he noted the LDL-P is higher than normal, the small LDL-P being a minuscule 30 along with HDL over 50 and triglycerides under 100 said there is nothing to be alarmed about at all.
Several other of the world's best health experts I have interviewed on my podcast show agreed with this analysis, including Dr. William Davis, Dr. Jim LaValle, Dr. John Salerno, and Dr. Mary C. Vernon, among many others. While there are plenty of medical professionals who would agree with your analysis of my situation as well as berserkertooth, like Dr. Dean Ornish and my upcoming podcast interview guest Dr. Michael Ozner, I don't think telling people they have to resort to taking a statin drug with their low-carb lifestyle is the answer. I'd be happy to talk to you today, so feel free to e-mail me at livinlowcarbman@charter.net so we can arrange a time to chat.
Demographics: Overwhelmingly of child bearing age, white, wealthy, college educated, insular, libertarian, dismissive of government, not public health or community oriented. They are like Shakers and are practicing a celibacy of sorts.
The dichotomy between the scientists and the snake oilers (high fat, with added sweetness but no protein - all marketing/sales) is tremendous.
Seeing some of the non scientist bloggers in action is enlightening (but won't be lightening my wallet)
This crowd practices ageism and sexism (ask me how I know).
Unless the Ancestral Health Society gets its programming aligned with its mission, vision and values, it's going to flop.
The Harvard Food Law Society as a synposium co sponsor branded this symposium all over the place. But for those who are locals, Harvard's name signifies being highly marketed, and it does not refer to legitimacy or quality.
And BTW, Boston's mayor just announced a 5 million dollar pot RFPs for healthy communities demonstration projects. Think any of the honchos at this thing are interested? A million little excuses (with noses in the stratosphere and hands pristinely clean and uncontaminated with the nasties of "those" communities and their SAD residents...)
pphhhffffttttt
I'm NO fan of statins and will never take one. BUT, his doctors today would proclaim him no more metabolically healthy and/or in need of statins than back then ... and that is the issue.
I'll have to look see for her book (presumably in the science fiction section judging by her interview) next time i'm at the library just for a giggle.
Love the blog btw. Have you done any blog posts on nora besides this one?
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/live-blogging-from-paleo-summit-vi-nora.html
Jimmy Moore @livinlowcarbman
Ede: There are some people who don't do well with vegetables. Many people may need to eat a more meat-based diet. Experiment! #AHS12
@chriskresser Thank you for looking I to the testosterone cream/iron overload issue. I've cut red meat & give blood every 2 months already.
This farm is also raising Black Angus, bred for marbling, so genetics is a factor. Even still, the fattiest cuts like brisket are probably no where near 80% fat.
I needs to spend some time learning much more or understanding more.
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By the way we do nto all eat dairy. I eat a lot of fat but it's mostly animal fat, "pork belly" slices, beef with lots of fat on, bacon, eggs.
Children with epilepsy on keto diets do not follow them forever, and they are not without side effects from growth retardation, to kidney stones, to menstrual irregularities and fertility issues for the girls, etc.
Pork belly is also not the same as seal oil which is another point about the uber high fat diets where they have been used. Unless you are living in a cold harsh environment and eating cold mammal fats, you are betting on the unsubstantiated health claims of profiteers. I'm pointing that out. Everyone is free to make their own informed decisions. I wish you well in yours.
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