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Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Sunday, September 30, 2012

Does a high animal protein/fat diet forestall obesity?

Don Matesz had an interesting blog post the other day that I tweeted:  Grass-Fed Animal Products Prevent Obesity and Cardiovascular Disease?  He writes:
Not for Mongolians.

Mongols eat a diet largely composed of milk products, meat, and fat from free-ranging, organic, grass-fed animals. They consume few plant foods because few edible plants grow in the cold continental climate of Mongolia. The climate forced them into a natural experiment in low-carb nutrition based on grass-fed animal products.
I have an interest in Mongolians because there's definitely some influence of these people in my husband's ancestral line.   I went looking for any peer review literature that might address the Mongolians and found an interesting article.  But before that, I also found some other info.  Don points out in a note to WAPF (presumably aimed at their promotion of raw milk) that the Mongols boiled their milk and made cheese from it.  But one of the accountings of the diets comes from the WAPF site:  Diet of Mongolia.  


Like many other developing countries, Mongolia is falling prey to Western influences, however, so it is difficult to determine how much influence these foods are having.  Still, in the WP article one has a picture painted of a gluttonous, slothy and very dirty culture that was historically healthy.  I dunno about the lazy factor -- they describe the men as basically trotting around from place to place to supervise herding -- but they do also describe harsh winters and arduous treks for long distances.  I don't know how many of you have ever ridden an animal, but sitting on one and riding is not quite the same as lounging in a recliner!  But anyway, they eat and ate a lot of meat, apparently mostly mutton, and relish the fat.  They eat the entire animal (which prompted my cheeky tweet about Enjoying Entrails, because there's much talk about consuming the entrails in various accounts, and while paleos and others are high on liver and other organs, and they eat a lot of bacon, but I don't hear a lot of chit chat about chitterlings -- pig intestines, pretty readily available -- on the paleo menu!) including the blood.  Now the current diet, particularly in the more urban areas, contains flour, but there is more than one mention of millet consumption in the traditional accounts.

One more general source on the Mongolian diet:  Mongolian Food: Meat, milk and Mongolia: Misunderstood and often maligned, the Mongolian diet does make sense.  Since Paleo Buzz is carrying an Alkaline Paleo blog these days, this sentence caught my eye:
The traditions of using, producing and preparing these foods are stronger outside the main cities, where the population is more reliant on the vast herds for food. B. Baljmaa (Mongolians generally use their first names), a dietitian and nutritionist at the National Nutrition Research Centre, says there is a genetic compatability for the food.
"Before 1992 there wasn't much research in this area. But now we know from our research that Mongolians are better able to absorb foods with more acid. So, traditional food should be kept in the country."
Meat & fat heavy diet is more acidic?  I'm not so high on that whole acid/alkaline thing, but just thought I'd pass this info along in case there's anything to it.  

Here's one peer review article I came across:  Individual-based primary prevention of cardiovascular disease in Cambodia and Mongolia: early identification and management of hypertension and diabetes mellitus.  This is a 2012 publication based on data collected in 2009 (Mongolia) and 2010 (Cambodia).  I thought to myself, how odd to juxtapose these two countries but it is interesting nonetheless.  For reference, at right is a map {click to enlarge} showing the relative locations of these two countries.  

The study surveyed almost 10,000 participants aged 25-64 years old (5433 Mongolians, 4539 Cambodians).  From the abstract:
Mongolia has higher prevalence of CVD risk factors than Cambodia –hypertension (36.5% versus 12.3%), diabetes (6.3% versus 3.1%), hypercholesterolemia (8.5% versus 3.2%), and overweight (52.5% versus 15.5%). The difference in tobacco smoking was less notable (32.1% versus 29.4%).

Those are some pretty substantial differences!  Interestingly, in the full-text we find that the Mongolians have a lower percentage (6.5%) of physically inactive people than the Cambodians (9%).  Someone get on the horn to Gary Taubes.  So what do the Cambodians eat?  According to the WFP {emphasis mine}:
The two key staple foods in Cambodia are rice and fish: rice supplies about 75 per cent of total caloric intake, while fish (from inland water courses and paddy fields, as well as some marine supplies) provides the main source of protein.These are supplemented by maize, root crops (cassava and sweet potatoes), mung beans and groundnuts. A wide variety of fruits and vegetables are produced in Cambodia, though the consumption of vegetables by the rural population appears limited since surplus supplies are often sold rather than consumed. Sugar-palms and sugar-cane are also grown, as are coconuts, pepper, cashew nuts, coffee and oil palms.
Cattle and buffalo are mainly raised for their draught power or as capital savings, although some beef is consumed. Pigs, particularly, are raised for meat, and are an increasingly important source of protein. Chickens and ducks are raised to supply eggs as well as meat. In some parts of the country (particularly forested areas), hunting and trapping of animals are additional sources of food, despite attempted restrictions on hunting.
There are pockets of Cambodian refugees here in the US, having fled the Khmer Rouge.  Here are two articles from WA (general) and MA (peer rev).  It appears many of these US-Cambodians retain much of their traditional diet.  Some quotes from the first article:
Cambodians in Seattle often carry on the nutritional traditions of their homeland - much of the Cambodian diet is based on foods readily available at home. An extensive assortment of greens and tropical fruits were grown in gardens or gathered from wild plants. Poultry was raised on rural homesteads. Fish - cheaper than coveted beef and pork - was popular for main dishes, sauces and soups. These food items remain popular with Cambodians in Seattle.
The shelves of local Cambodian markets in White Center and the Rainier Valley are crammed with bottled sauces and canned fruits, 50-pound bags of rice, noodles, cookies, candies and teas. Freezers  are filled with catfish, mudfish, shrimp and eel. Marinated quail wings soak on ice and barbecued chickens hang by their feet. Impulse items - fried bananas, sticky rice wrapped and tied in banana leaves, plastic cups of sweet rice and green rice flour noodles - await hungry shoppers near cash registers.
... The Cambodian diet is naturally nutritious, full of fish and other seafood, vegetables and fruit. Unlike the average American diet, Cambodian meals are generally low-fat and low- calorie. Local Cambodians say there's not much in the diet to watch out for. Still, locals say some older people splurged on more fattening foods after immigrating to Washington - they weren't accustomed to watching their diets in Cambodia and were deprived during the war. One local grocer said many Cambodians become more health conscious after immigrating to America and learning about fatty foods and cholesterol. Still, he said, "Some cannot resist the pork even though they know it will give them problems later."
Fish and meat with rice and vegetables is considered nutritious. The concept of "junk food" is not the same in Cambodian culture, though coconut is cited as very fattening. ...  Jackfruit, durain, longans, lychees, coconut, mango, papaya and bananas are also commonly eaten fresh for dessert. Coconut milk with banana, sugar and tapioca is another favorite, as is sticky rice filled with pork, jackfruit or banana.
Interesting that now they avoid, but splurge, on fatty foods due to American influences, but didn't need to watch their diets in Cambodia because of lack of food in a war torn country.  Still ... lots of rice!  And some of it sticky -- guess how it gets that way??  One last cite, this one abstract only on a study on teens of SE Asian descent in the US:
Food preferences, beliefs, and practices were assessed among 207 Southeast Asian refugee high school students, all of whom had been in the U.S. five years or less. Questionnaires typed both in English as well as their native language of either Cambodian, Vietnamese, or Hmong, were administered to all students in a classroom setting. Results indicated Southeast Asian refugee youth have maintained strong ties to their native foods and traditional meal patterns. In the U.S., as in Southeast Asia, rice remains the staple food in their diet. High status foods in Southeast Asia such as fruits, meats, and soft drinks remain highly preferred in the U.S. While milk is well-liked, cheese remains a strongly disliked food item. Fruits and vegetables are frequently consumed. Nutritionally weak American foods such as candy bars, cake, and potato chips are not consumed frequently. However, soft drinks are consumed daily by almost one-third of the students. Breakfast was missed by almost 60% of females and 37% of males. Forty-five percent of the youth reported they had primary responsibility for evening meal preparation.
Interesting ...

OK, back to Asia.  I think it is fair to say that the Cambodian culture may well have been contaminated by Western influences moreso than Mongolian culture in that CVD comparison study.  But these cultures were clearly adapted to vastly different diets -- I find it somewhat amusing that the Mongolians dislike fish, while the Cambodians dislike cheese.  But which "base" is better resistant to obesity, either with changing lifestyle (urban life) or cultural dietary contamination?  It would appear the low fat high carb fares far better than the meat and fat eaters.  Same for diabetes and CVD.  Three-fold greater incidence of hypertension and obesity, and two-fold higher incidence in diabetes in fat-based Mongolians as compared to carb-based Cambodians.  Such things are truly difficult to dismiss.

Might be some lessons to the 80/20's out there (that would include me!).  On a personal note, I am not a huge meat and animal fat eater, but significant amounts would be a good description.  I have to admit that I think about trying a pescetarian experiment from time to time (I could not be a vegetarian, even an ovo-lacto) but I find myself getting anxious at the thought of eliminating all butter and land animal meats for even a single month.  Does that sound familiar to what LC'ers chide folks about when they are faced with giving up carbs?   Is meat addictive then?  I dunno about that ... but if a sign of addiction is an unwillingness or angst about giving something up for even a time, perhaps!!

EDIT/ADDED COMMENTARY 10/1

Hey all.  There are a few things about the initial post I wanted to clarify based on some of the comments.

1.  The closing salvo on addiction was a bit tongue in cheek.  It was meant to show the silliness of accusing starch eaters of being carb addicts ... especially when so many of the accusers go on about how much they enjoy their bacon!

2.  I wasn't using the Mongolian v. Cambodian study as anything definitive.  Hopefully the post came across as intended -- just more of a share with a few thoughts off the top of my head.  Perhaps a different title may have been more appropriate.  It's only two countries, but the Cambodians appear to have adapted to their diet with a physiology that is more resistant to Western influences than the Mongolians physiology adapted to theirs.  

39 comments:

Jozef Varhaník said...

"but I find myself getting anxious at the thought of eliminating all butter and land animal meats for even a single month. Does that sound familiar to what LC'ers chide folks about when they are faced with giving up carbs? Is meat addictive then? I dunno about that ..."

I'd say its more of an issue with "getting used to" eat certain stuff and not eating other stuff day in day out. not an addiction, just unwanted novelty/change. good or bad, it seems to work both ways.

Sanjeev said...

> more of an issue with "getting used to" eat certain stuff and not eating other stuff day in day out
__________
Certainly for the elderly[0] , but I doubt that's much of an effect for adults. I've read research on disgust and the effect of "culture-maintenance" (keeping people in a culture using food restrictions - one will not go out of the culture because one is used to its food and is disgusted with food from other cultures) - but this effect only seems to work if used in childhood - maybe there's a neurological "sensitive period".

In my experience with my peers one's 30s and 40s are ages for food experimentation, but maybe that's just my peer group.

There's a Robert Sapolsky lecture about changing food tastes, and I think he talks about resistance in old age.

Sanjeev said...

> research on disgust and the effect of "culture-maintenance"

I'll see if I can find this, it was interesting.

paleotwopointoh said...

Eh, overweight and obese are pretty different and Mongolians have different builds/body types to Cambodians.

A little extra weight is no big deal health-wise if you are physically active (as Mongolians manage just fine), but being underweight is usually more problematic and often connected to lower physical activity.

It's not clear that 'risk factor' prevalence= worse health overall. Mongolians have a higher LE and lower maternal mortality than Cambodians. I'd take living longer and surviving childbearing more often instead of a lower tendency to be overweight.

Jozef Varhaník said...

Certainly true, culture behaves like an idiot, as culturally induced resistance to evaluate foreignties/novelies doesn't discriminate between potentially beneficial/negative. Perhaps it has a lot to do with keeping one's brain "plastic" enough well into one's old years. Changing habits should be child's play for an old(er) but well maintained brain. And that (plasticity) certainly requires constant hormetic change.

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v30/n11/full/0803326a.html

Putative contributors to the secular increase in obesity: exploring the roads less traveled

Results:

For at least 10 putative additional explanations for the increased prevalence of obesity over the recent decades, we found supportive (although not conclusive) evidence that in many cases is as compelling as the evidence for more commonly discussed putative explanations.

Conclusion:

Undue attention has been devoted to reduced physical activity and food marketing practices as postulated causes for increases in the prevalence of obesity, leading to neglect of other plausible mechanisms and well-intentioned, but potentially ill-founded proposals for reducing obesity rates.

Melissa Mcewen said...

I get comments from vegans that I'm addicted to meat and just write such to justify my addiction. I get the same comments from LC zealots about carbs.

They are basically the same type of people.

Mongolians have had access to sugar for quite some time and often buy it at markets. But so have the Tsimane, the Amazonian culture that has very little heart disease. So that can't really explain it.

I think however there is too much focus by people like Don and the paleo crowd on what people are eating rather than what they are not eating. We discussed iodine on FB, but you said the brick tea might have it since it is salted, but not all salt contains iodine. Also that reminds me why I personally gave up brick tea, because it is often contaminated with various things, like a massive amount of floride, but sometimes other stuff too. The Mongolian diet is also very deficient in folate.

Either way, unlike the crazies who think man optimally lives on mainly meat, I do think things like seafood, vegetables, and fruit are important. And the Cambodian diet has them in abundance. I've had Cambodian food and it's not terribly different from Thai or Malaysian, which inspire a lot of the things I cook at home. I would wonder how your body would react to a SE Asian-style or even a raw vegan diet? Don't you live in MA? There is a large Khmer community there and it might also be fun to try some of their restaurants.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Melissa, could you please provide some source material on folate deficiency in the traditional Mongol diet?

All the milks except for goat milk contain folic acid.

Most likely iron deficiency is common among very young children because they are not yet consuming red meat and dairy is low in iron. Also, children in Mongolia are breastfed for years (at least those living the nomadic life style) but, of course, feedings are not the sole source of nutrition after 6 months.

Evelyne: As to acid foods, the meat and fat aren't, but some of the fermented dairy certainly is.

Charles Grashow said...

http://danny.oz.au/travel/mongolia/herd-animals.html

The traditional herd animals of the Mongolians — the five "jewels" or "snouts" — are horses, sheep, goats, cows/yaks and camels.


http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad347e/ad347e0r.htm

I don't know if yak, sheep, mare's or camel's milk is folic acid deficient

eagunner said...

Hm... maybe you misinterpreted (or perhaps I did) the Cambodia/Mongolia study, or maybe you're being a little sneaky, but what I seem to have read would indicate that comparing classic Mogolian and Cambodian diets, and their respective effects on cardiovascular disease and diabetes, based on *that* study, is completely pointless. Perhaps I'm completely crazy, and maybe this is just my poor reading comprehension, but isn't the entire purpose of the study to basically track the rising incidence of these diseases as western influences increase? If that is the case, then the study appears to be asserting that their traditional diets (both the rice and fish variety, AND the meat and fat variety) were quite effective in protecting against these diseases, and it is only in adopting some new diet (not sure what the new diet is though), they are killing themselves slowly. The study doesn't even track their diets, does it? How did you get that the entire population of each country is eating "meat and fat" *or* "rice and fish", when the entire point of the study is aimed at the fact that *divergence* from the two traditional diets you've highlighted are the very cause of the diseases they are tracking? I'm I insane here? Did I totally misread something? If I'm way off base, please just tell me to shut my big fat mouth, but I could swear that that the things you said were totally wrong, and the things that I said were completely right, which is my favorite way for things to be said.

By the way, I am new to your blog. I listened to you on Jimmy Moore a while ago, bashing Gary Taubes, which I thought was interesting, and also funny. I thought, hey, I should read her blog one day, but then I never did, until now! Also, I just read that hilarious bit under the comments section about how some dudes were starting fights on the message boards. Please, don't think I'm trying to start a fight. As hilarious as a fight can be, I'm not trying to fight. I just thought that the study seemed to be worthless as a metric for determining any relationship between meatandfat and fishandrice's effects on death. I could be wrong though. If you think I am wrong, I apologize in advance.

Melissa Mcewen said...

THere are a bunch of papers on folate in Mongolia if you just Google it, including this one relating it to atherosclerotic disease
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m0545517435t0765/

Life in Mongolia is harsh and some of these deficiencies are related to the Dzud, which is a harsh winter that occurs and leads to malnutrition. Mongolia also has some environmental issues and it's possible that the diet in the past was more diverse and contained more wild plants.

Heart disease in developing countries is its own special animal, worsened by malnutrition. It's also a huge issue in vegetarian areas of India.

Sanjeev said...

This is comparable to comparing 1800s Pima populations with late 1900s Brownsville, Texas with 1950s Jamaica.

Maybe much better if the researchers used good modern controls and techniques to gather the data.

Science gets published is so others can build on it.

there's data. It's to BE USED.

I see zero justification for limiting its use.

Why erect walls around it just because those who gathered and/or published it didn't use it in a specific way or for a specific purpose.

Unless this data has been copyrighted and presented as a major motion picture protected by the MPAA there may be problems but otherwise slicing and dicing it any which way, statistically analyzing it, graphing it ... all that is fair game.

Sanjeev said...

surprised no one posted this yet

or this

(2 ensure work safety the 2 links above are:)

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=%22tuva+or+bust%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&redir_esc=&ei=HRhpUMWiMPDYyAGnloGICA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn4_40hAAr0

"why do you have Feynman diagrams on your van?"

Because I'm Feynman (!)

Sanjeev said...

this is off topic by the way, but a decent way to waste a couple of minutes

eagunner said...

Hm... you seem to be very concerned with the idea that I think data should not be analyzed, just because it wasn't collected for a certain purpose...

Where to start... first, there is no data. That was my point. There is no data on nutrition in that study. So no, you can't "slice and dice" it at all, purely because it is not present. You also can't slice and dice data on the incidence of head injuries based on that study because, you guessed it, it's not in the study.

One quote from your comment kind of got me thinking:
"Science gets published ... so others can build on it."

Interesting you should mention the purpose for publishing that study... I looked at it again, and I thought to myself, hm... are there any clues in here as to why they conducted this 'study'? Remember, this study is a meta study. So that means that some (paid) 'researchers' did what carbsane did (for free), and just read a study. Two actually. Then, they 'sliced and diced' some numbers, and voila! A nice neat little study, in which the first sentence of the abstract mentions, "management with pharmaceutical and lifestyle advice interventions." I wonder if multinational drug companies would stand to benefit from a study that makes a simple claim along the lines of "We measured CVD and diabetes in Cambodia and Mongolia, but there is probably even more, that we didn't measure! How can we give them their drugs if we don't monitor their disease markers better?!"

That's my take on it anyway. And again, if that is what the study tells you, why would this blog post be analyzing data that is not in the study?

Sanjeev said...

> very concerned with the idea that I think data should not be analyzed

there are several sources of data and pieced of information (results) mentioned in the blog post and the post itself synthesizes those.

It's a similar situation to the cross cultural comparisons - who measured diet and disease in one study for the Pima and Brownsville and Jamaica? If all six sets of data were not in one single study how could they be compared? Take diet from one place, incidence of disease one from another, incidence of another disease from yet another.

And how do all of those get applied against the Inuit, and Massa?

Unknown said...

I tried the Mongol diet for a while but city code enforcement told me I had to get all those sheep out of my back yard.

eulerandothers said...

'I do think things like seafood, vegetables, and fruit are important. And the Cambodian diet has them in abundance.'

No doubt. But hope you like lots and lots and lots of rice.
'The staple food for Cambodians is rice, and today rice is consumed by most Cambodians daily and with all meals, utilizing a great number of cooking styles and techniques. In fact, Cambodians eat more rice than any other people in the world:[citation needed] the Khmer expression for "Have you eaten?" (Khmer pronunciation: [ɲam ɓaːj nɨw]) is "Have you yet eaten rice?". There are over a hundred words and phrases for rice in the Khmer language[citation needed] as well as hundreds of varieties of indigenous Khmer rice, from the fragrant jasmine-scented Malis rice, to countless types of wild, brown and sticky rice. Sticky rice is most often consumed as a dessert, often simply with slices of tropical fruit like mango or durian, and coconut milk.

In addition, rice is eaten all day long in the form of street-side snacks, such as deep-fried rice cakes with chives and spinach, for breakfast, as in Cambodia's famous rice noodle soup kuyteav or rice porridge, and in many desserts. Plain white rice is served with nearly every family meal, typically served with grilled freshwater fish, a samlor or soup, and an assortment of seasonal herbs, salad leaves and vegetables.[citation needed]'

Yummmmm!

Sanjeev said...

I would try the Mongol diet but there are not many Mongols (or Tuvans) hereabouts anyway. An Inuit/Yupik diet would be much more logistically do-able.

I'm scared of Kuru too ...

Gabriella Kadar said...

Based on the information I've looked at recently, the diet is now high in fried dough.

Uwe, mare and cow milk all contain folic acid. For some reason, it is goat's milk that contains none.



Gabriella Kadar said...

Sorry, thought it looked weird: Ewe.

Gabriella Kadar said...

A quick peek (so I wouldn't end up late for work this a.m.) of studies available, also indicate a high incidence of goitre in Mongolia. There are more factors involved here than just Folic acid and iron.

There is now a concerted effort to provide iodized salt etc. in Mongolia.

The problem in Mongolia appears to be mutlifactorial.

Such lovely, hospitable people; so many problems.

Cambodians probably have it easy by comparison. At least they have better climatic conditions.










Gabriella Kadar said...

eagunner, I like your critical thought process here and I think you have valid points to contribute.

Comparing Cambodians to Mongolians is somewhat strange. It would make more sense to compare Mongolians to other herder nomadic peoples in order to determine the impact of environment and climate.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Sanjeev, heaven's sake, just don't eat human brains.

Listen to the throat singing and marvel. I think I've got the mechanics of this figured out. Can't do it...........yet. Not sure if I have time in this lifetime.

Sanjeev said...

In the early 2000s I took some overtoning/throat singing classes with a wonderful Feldenrais practitioner, Lynette Reid, who lived in Toronto at the time.

She's at Dalhousie now, and "stuff happened" so while I got a few isolated overtones going once in a while I never practiced enough to do it well. I still have the notes somewhere though. I should dig those up.

Sanjeev said...

[0] Dr. Lynette Reid, (PhD, GCFP)

Sanjeev said...

> just don't eat human brains

Gotta use the whole animal. Eat the meats, make rope with the hair & skin, bang on mysterious black monoliths with the bones ...

That's the ONE TRUE PALEO WAY(C)(R)(TM)(Pats. Pending), dude-ette

Sanjeev said...

> city code enforcement

city code showed up? gee, I thought I had complained to the SPCA.

LeonRover said...

Sanjeev,

Were the autre Feinmann to be asked about the fuzziness of his diagrams, I expect he would opine that nutritionists are only required to make recommendations at the 1.5 sigma level.

(Physicists demand "too much causality" for their theories, RDs etc. only need to meet the standard of "plausible biology".)

I, myself adhere to the standard of "personal crossover design", popularly described as N=1, tho' Ein Kruiser has his own description "n-1" (sic(K)).

Slainte

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Ein Kruiser LOL!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Hey folks, please read the update at the bottom of the post I made yesterday. This post was not ever intended to be one of my grand analyses or anything like that, and the only reason I juxtaposed Mongolians and Cambodians was because that paper was one that popped up when I went for a quick Google Scholar look.

However perhaps there are some keys for those who either can't seem to stick to their VLCVHF diet and/or try adding back some carbs. It doesn't seem to go well either way. High fat and high carb do not seem to go well together metabolically, and when I use "high" I'm talking absolute amounts not percents.

Interesting commentary!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Welcome eagunner! Funny though, I didn't "bash" Taubes in my interview. I exposed where he has misrepresented his own sources. Gotta hand it to Jimmy for trying though. Complete with the lead-in, misleading shownotes (they were fixed, but not before many had already listened) and putting words in my mouth with the title he put on the podcast.

Lesley Scott said...

so if I understand you right, what you're saying is that they eat a lot of rice? :)

eulerandothers said...

yep!

eulerandothers said...

Forgot to add: that's Wikipedia..

Sanjeev said...

R was on Stephan's a while ago trying to convince people the Japanese eat little rice, based on his brother's US Army experience.

Wonder what he'll try if he reads the full post above.

Unknown said...

I did not have the animal skins to prepare a proper Mongol yurt so I slept in the back yard with the small herd of sheep, covering myself only in a Ralph Lauren Polo leather jacket. The sheep kept their distance, they could tell I was wearing their brethren.

Drew said...

Couldn't the Mongolians weight and CVD risk also reflect there regular exposure to harsh climate and food shortage? I.e. 'dieting' makes you lay down more fat once you have ample food supply again. Also, the long cold winter would be an enormous stressor. Tropical populations, on the other hand, have a comparably consistent and abundant food supply. Speaking of abundant food supply... I just returned from France and, frankly, they defy most every theory of obesity. They eat so much of all macronutrients...well, it's disconcerting. The portions are pretty large. Bread and butter is a way of life and it's washed down with wine or beer not much water. Afternoons are spent drinking and snacking at the cafe's. Yes, they do walk a lot. But what stands out to me more is that they relax and socialize-- a lot. Businesses are closed for 2 hours at lunch. I know this is nothing new, but looking at it from my fresh 'burned by LC' perspective, I can't help but note that there is no obvious reason--analyzing the big theories low-fat, LC, or low calories-- that these people are so slim. My brother pointed out that perhaps it's as simple as the Michael Pollan recommendation-- eat only food your Grandmother would recognize.

Drew said...

Couldn't the Mongolians weight and CVD risk also reflect there regular exposure to harsh climate and food shortage? I.e. 'dieting' makes you lay down more fat once you have ample food supply again. Also, the long cold winter would be an enormous stressor. Tropical populations, on the other hand, have a comparably consistent and abundant food supply. Speaking of abundant food supply... I just returned from France and, frankly, they defy most every theory of obesity. They eat so much of all macronutrients...well, it's disconcerting. The portions are pretty large. Bread and butter is a way of life and it's washed down with wine or beer not much water. Afternoons are spent drinking and snacking at the cafe's. Yes, they do walk a lot. But what stands out to me more is that they relax and socialize-- a lot. Businesses are closed for 2 hours at lunch. I know this is nothing new, but looking at it from my fresh 'burned by LC' perspective, I can't help but note that there is no obvious reason--analyzing the big theories low-fat, LC, or low calories-- that these people are so slim. My brother pointed out that perhaps it's as simple as the Michael Pollan recommendation-- eat only food your Grandmother would recognize.

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