las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Thursday, September 27, 2012

Weight Loss Celebs & Credibility

I’ve read that [he] has regained quite a bit of the weight. When I’ve seen him [in pictures] lately, it’s only from the shoulders up.
Questions:
  1. Who is "he"?
  2. Who said this?
  3. What is he/she implying about the subject?
If you answered Jimmy Moore and Me, you'd be wrong.  No, here is the direct quotation including the comment on his blog to which it was made in response.  This was Tom Naughton referring to Jared Fogle of Subway fame. 
Comment:  So since the “eat this not that” is a group you dislike, I would think you probably couldn’t stand watching those Subway commercials when Jared would advertise how he lost all that weight eating Subway and advertised a “heart-healthy turkey club, only 7 grams of fat!”
Fat Head:  I’ve read that Jared has regained quite a bit of the weight. When I’ve seen him in Subway commercials lately, it’s only from the shoulders up.
So as to Question 3:  I ask you, what are the implications of that quote?  It is no stretch to conclude that
  1. Jared Fogle's weight and continued success is relevant to discussions on the efficacy of the low fat diet he espouses, therefore
  2. Fogle's regain and current weight are relevant, and
  3. Efforts to disguise such by Subway and/or Fogel are misleading at best.
And yet this man routinely smears those who might say the very same things about his friend and fellow low carb hack, Jimmy Moore.   What?  Hack is too strong?  I don't think so.  Let's harken back to the blog post that got me kicked off of Jimmy Moore's Discussion Board:  LC Morphing to HAES? Part III: Why so many "Heavy" Low Carbers .  This was a topic that Jimmy himself discussed in 2009 and October 2010.  All I was really doing with this series was point out the accelerating trend of promoting LC for health and not simply weight loss, and this seemed to be somewhat of a coordinated effort by LC bloggers and celebs because, let's face it, so many of them were indeed heavy. 

I have no idea what goes on in the minds of a Fat Head or a Diet Doctor when they stand up in front of an audience at an LC gathering and often share a podium with objectively overweight or obese low carbers.  These people will snark at my weight (mind you, doing so up until around a two years ago would have been pointing out the shortcomings of low carb, and I remain technically LC according to Jimmy's latest post) but defend that of their friends to the bitter end.  Only a key difference is that I am NOT promoting any way of eating here at the Asylum, nor is this blog about my weight loss success/failings or anything in between.  It also bears repeating that I'm not endorsing products and/or making any sort of living off selling them on this blog.  Getting back to Jared Fogle Jimmy Moore and the subject of this post, that last point is the most important.

Jared in 2010, link
Jared got rich off of his weight loss success story-- I think everyone who accomplishes what he did deserves to if it's in the cards for them!  I doubt he had any clue what was in store when he started just eating the LF subs at Subway, but when the chain heard of his phenomenal achievement, they signed him on, and the rest was history.  You can read all about it on Wikipedia.  As coincidence would have it, I drew parallels between Jimmy & Jared in that LC Morphing to HAES post, they are apt.  Jimmy hasn't made Jared's money or achieved the same level of fame, but in certain circles one could argue he's more famous. 

Still, I discussed Jared's weight gain that made the tabloids and earned him a piece in People.  Now Jared is a bit younger than Jimmy (six years), but that's really the only major notable difference, and I don't consider the age all that meaningful given that both were ABLE to lose roughly 200 lbs each.  Jared lost his in 1999 which put him at maintenance for a decade before his noticeable relapse.  He also, at 6'2" and 190 lbs was a bit more successful in achieving a "normal" weight than Jimmy, who at 6'3" likes to claim 230 as his goal.  By comparison, when Jared regained in 2010, he reached a high of 231 lbs. 

Now his role at Subway had been downsized by then, but this still presented problems for him and the company.  And rightly so.  Does anyone doubt that had Jared regained the weight sooner, or regained more, etc., that Subway would have severed ties?  Is it any wonder that you just never see another WW, Nutrisystem, Jenny, etc. commercial featuring celebs who've fallen off the wagon or regained?   No ... it is only in the bizarro world of LC that someone like Jimmy remains influential and is able to earn his living entirely from a business he built on his weight loss success.  In any other realm he wouldn't even be relevant to the discussion!!

But when I pointed this out a little over a year ago, I was being mean and rude.  When I pointed out that Jimmy -- while posting recent photos on FB and other places many don't bother to look -- had reverted all of his avatars to circa 2005, I was being petty and obsessive.  What about Naughton then?  This man is surrounded by friends who have regained considerably more than Jared and/or who have maintained their weightlosses for far shorter periods before regaining.  There is no word but hypocrit to describe Naughton's defense of Jimmy and other friends while making quips like this one about Jared.

As of this post, Jimmy's avatars on social media and his forum remain his torso with the Haters Make Me Famous tee -- inspired by yours truly.  Pictures on his podcast sites are head shots from 2005, as well as photos used for his guest appearances on podcasts like Sean Croxton's.  The thing is there's no paparazzi that's going to keep the Jimmy Moore's of this world honest as they did with Jared.   Thing is with the Jareds, you wouldn't really need the paparazzi -- folks noticed the camoflauge attempts in commercials.  Jimmy was no hermit through all of this, attending various conferences, being interviewed, etc.  But nobody really said anything much -- largely, I beleive, not to sully the reputation of the diet.   This was all fine for a while until Jimmy started to move in on the paleo market and attending those events sporting significant regain and a decidedly unfit, obese body.   Of course Jimmy is back stirring the pot in paleoville lashing out at all the starch pushers and all the while accusing others of being antagonistic for not welcoming him into their market share.  How long before everyone realizes his finger pointing of blame at me wears thin?  The paleos are getting better at self policing so there's hope.  Jimmy is having a harder and harder time of garnering sympathy for his supposed victimhood, though he's still playing the open-and-honest-aw-shucks-good-guy card and getting some bites.  Since he's still at it pointing fingers of distraction left and right and stirring the controversy pot as best he can ... yes ...  I plan to address this in more detail soon for the benefit of those yet unaware of his charlatan side.

The Atkins website still sports Jimmy's success story.  Imagine if they were to have formed a WW-style diet group around 2005 and chose Jimmy as one of their "real people" who lost weight with Atkins ... to promote how he did it with Atkins bars and shakes.  I'd say he would have been an excellent choice.  I'd also say the Atkins folks would probably not have been too happy when he showed up for his 5 year follow-up shoot and would have just nixed that idea for an ad campaign.  Does anyone believe otherwise??  In Jimmy's case, the healthfulness of LC, or even if TWICHOO were magically proven tomorrow is irrelevant.  For him and for the community this is about truth in advertising.  Only it's even a bit worse with Jimmy.  Jared, like many others, admitted to letting his guard down and returning to old, bad, eating habits.  Thus it is difficult to blame his diet or Subway sandwiches for the relapse after a decade.  Jimmy OTOH, embraced and remained faithful to ever more contorted (yet often increasingly accepted by the LC community as the "right way" to do low carb!) interpretations of the diet.

So newsflash to sarcastic folks like Naughton who deride low fat approaches to weight loss.  The problem with Jimmy (and too many others) is that he has made for a rather poor spokesman for the efficacy of the diet for a long time now.  While he has maintained over 100 lb weight loss, which is to be admired, he has not done so consistently, and it's not nearly as impressive in the context of having lost 195+ lbs.  Furthermore, beginning with some rather nominal regains he already began to look obese, and has appeared objectively like an obese before picture for three years now.  He knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this.  And it's not even something clever lighting and careful cropping can hide which is why he uses way outdated avatars (compounded by the fact that he reverted to these rather recently as his weight issues became more problematic). 

Jimmy had lots of website traffic and podcast listeners to trade off of for sponsorships, ad revenues, etc.  He knew that absent a truly high profile gig, potential advertisers weren't going to look past that on his website.  They weren't reading his blogs or likely bothering to listen to his podcasts so hiding the truth in plain view worked for Jimmy.   He has revealed details of his true health situation in comments on the blog, the occasional blog post, or in offhand comments in hour long podcasts.  People who follow and listen, especially those like myself with eidetic memories do pick up on these things and connect the dots.  If Jimmy were Richard Simmons in his hey day, he could be the subject of a 60 minutes investigation and you know Fat Head would be among those calling for his head for perpetuating the myth of low fat diets for weight loss.  

So a question to Naughton, though I know he'd never answer, so let's make this rhetorical.  Why the different set of rules and standards for your buddy Jimmy?  


116 comments:

Gianni said...

....it is only in the bizarro world of LC that someone like Jimmy remains influential and is able to earn his living entirely from a business he built on his weight loss success. In any other realm he wouldn't even be relevant to the discussion!

His weight loss success gave him momentum to build his quite remarkable blog-podcast.
It might not be the best quality wise, but I doubt many other podcasts come close to match the number of interviews every week etc. (plus him, being a supestructure for the "cruise" and much more).
Or do they? If so, they might not be doing such a good job as JM in being found, in marketing themselfs.

On the opposite, I don't know how many follow him for his "success story" or else. C'mon... it would be quite funny.
He's clearly not that influential of his own, his usefulness, relevance, is mostly about the other aspect.

screennamerequired said...

No one fails on a low carb diet. It's that damn carb creep that is making low-carbers fat. Those 5 grams of carbs per 10 ounces of heavy cream can really add up and pack on the pounds when you're using 4 pounds a week in your coffee.

Simon Carter said...

Hi Evelyn, basically you saying that Jimmy Moore is a big fat idiot so why has he any credibility giving out diet and weight loss advice?
Don’t you think the fact that you are also obese at 5’2’’ tall and 200 pounds (please correct me if that is not accurate), by the same “set of rules and standards”, make you a hypocrite too?
Jimmy has a well established podcast where he interviews a lot of people. I listen when I see someone that interests me.

Charles Grashow said...

@Simon

Evelyn does not recommend any type of diet while Jimmy has staked his entire career - such as it is - on VLC so whether or not Evelyn is obese is irrevelant

The fact is that Jimmy hasn't maintained his weight loss under any circumstance - in 1999 he lost 179 lbs on a low fat portion controlled diet and regained it all within 4 months - in 2004 he lost 180 lbs on the Atkins diet and has gone and down since then - he is giving dietary advice in the sense that he pushed VLC as the ONLY answer

Simon Carter said...

Hi Charles, how can you say that Evelyn does not recommend any type of diet when this entire blog (which I regularly read and learn from) is her expressing her opinion about all and sundry diets? Yet Jimmy has no credibility because he is still fat but the fact that Evelyn is obese is irrelevant? Are you kidding me? Jimmy has no credibility because he is wrong about a lot of things. Evelyn has credibility because she is right about a lot of things. For Evelyn, who is obese, to use the argument that Jimmy is wrong because he is obese is complete hypocrisy on her part!

Charles Grashow said...

"expressing her opinion about all and sundry diets" AND RECOMMENDING a specific diet - like Jimmy does with VLC - are two different things.

Melissa Mcewen said...

I haven't read anything on this blog that says "lose weight if you do XYZ." Evelyn doesn't have a book about how she got skinny on a LC diet! I certainly don't read this blog for diet advice, but for her skeptical approach.

Simon Carter said...

I wrote “For Evelyn, who is obese, to use the argument that Jimmy is wrong because he is obese is complete hypocrisy on her part!” Jimmy is wrong, not because he is obese, but because he is stumbling around in desperation trying to find something new that works. If Jimmy looked like Mark Sisson would Evelyn give him more credibility? Should I give Evelyn less credibility because she doesn’t look like Melissa Hartwig? Of course not.

LeonRover said...

Methinks Simon is putting the Cart(er) before the horse, in deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of hypocrite or hypocrisy.

Simon Carter said...

Hi Leon, I am always open to learning something. How did I misunderstand the meaning of hypocrite or hypocrisy? To me a hypocrite is, a person who engages in the same behaviors she condemns others for; a person who holds other people to higher standards than she holds herself. Have I got it wrong?

Simon Carter said...

And Leon, when Evelyn wrote, "There is no word but hypocrit to describe Naughton's defense of Jimmy and other friends while making quips like this one about Jared." did she get it wrong too?

Charles Grashow said...

http://eathropology.com/2012/09/26/where-the-women-are-nutrition-edition/

"CarbSane’s Evelyn Kocur, shows us–and the rest of the world–what the focused energy of one cranky woman who thinks we’ve been fed a load of crap looks like. Although I’m not a fan of her style—after years of listening to my mother scream, even reading someone else’s raging makes me want to hide under the bed—I can nevertheless admire the no-holds-barred way she skips the warm fuzzies and goes straight for the jugular. I really wish–every now and then–that I could pull that off. Even when she’s missed the target by a mile, I have to give her credit for sheer firepower."

Sanjeev said...

> Jimmy is wrong because he is obese

this is a mischaracterization - a more accurate statement would be

Jimmy's current obesity PLUS the MISuse of old weight loss success make Jimmy's current commercial venture hypocritical.

> he is stumbling around in desperation trying to find something new that works

this is VERY inaccurate; all his "stumbling" is very narrowly constrained and its reportage has been getting more and more constrained.

some of the constraints:
no calorie counting, EVER
no carbohydrate

(from the podcasts that I've listened to) few low carb advocates are ever forced to admit high carb and low fat can be good for some but all guests that propose more carbs get Jimmy's patented "everyone has to find the best approach for themselves" rebuttal/soft-peddling , having their message nullified as far as Jimmy's core audience is concerned

> If Jimmy looked like Mark Sisson would Evelyn give him more credibility?

Sisson has been roundly criticized for those of his actions that are deserve criticism as well.

MS's stances and advice are less extreme than Jimmy's and MS's use of his own image is not criticized because as far as we know that element of his venture is realistic and NOT hypocritical.

I think we have commented that MS may have great athletic genetics and has never been obese, and since the never-obese seem to have an easier time maintaining weight he doesn't understand what the overweight or formerly-overweight go through.

Simon Carter said...

Hi Charles, you are the King of the links! Ok, Adele Hite likes Evelyn’s blog, I like Evelyn’s blog. What is your point again?

Sanjeev said...

It definitely applies to Jimmy

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/hypocrite
noun
a person who pretends to be what he is not

Holding Jimmy to a lower standard than Jared is hypocritical

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hypocrite
A hypocrite preaches one thing, and does another. You're a hypocrite if you criticize other people for wearing fur, but pull out your big mink jacket as soon as it gets cold.

find more here or copy & paste into your URL bar:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=hypocrite&ls=b&sourceid=Mozilla-search

In isolation the one instance with respect to Naughton is definitely a double standard and is two-faced but technically may not be hypocritical. But taken together with Naughton's claims of scientific integrity and presenting the truth it ends up being hypocritical.

It's also hypocritical with respect to Naughton's economic/political views - standard libertarian and free market theory requires full information. That can't happen if the journalists collude with some market participants and discriminate against others.

But for someone who wants to extremely widen the definition of "stalker" you sure do want to stick to an extremely narrow definition of hypocrisy.

Simon Carter said...

Hi Sanjeev, I like your definition, "A hypocrite preaches one thing, and does another. You're a hypocrite if you criticize other people for wearing fur, but pull out your big mink jacket as soon as it gets cold."

Sanjeev said...

That's NOT mine: it's from the page listed.

Further down I pointed (via link and text) to a page with many more definitions and examples

That's what this was
__________
find more here or copy & paste into your URL bar:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=hypocrite&ls=b&sourceid=Mozilla-search

Richard Feynman said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Charles Grashow said...

That Evelyn never recommended any specific diet so I don't believe that her weight is an issue - Jimmy pushes VLC/LC diets as the solution for everyone - so his weight does matter - like a doctor who smokes telling you that smoking is bad for you Jimmy CANNOT control his weight on the diet he's pushed for 8 years

Simon Carter said...

OK Charles, to follow your argument, if Evelyn recommended a specific diet, the fact that she is still obese, would be an issue. The issue being that her credibility would be in question due to her failure to lose weight on the diet that she recommended. Am I understanding you correctly?

Charles Grashow said...

Correct - Jimmy pushes low carb as the weight loss panacea for everyone yet he CANNOT control his weight

If Evelyn pushed diet Z as the ultimate diet and she was UNABLE to control her weight then her weight would be a BIG issue and her credibility would suffer greatly

Simon Carter said...

So, does Evelyn not know how to lose the weight she would have to lose in order to no longer be obese? Does she even want to lose weight? Does she care? Does she believe she is healthy enough as she is? She obviously has tremendous knowledge and experience in this area. She delights in skewering people left and right not only for their errors in science, but their personal appearance as well.

Charles Grashow said...

I do not know - let Evelyn respond to those questions

Dave said...

Doesn't Evelyn promote "eat less, move more"? If so, then she is a hypocrite if that very advice doesn't work for her.

Sanjeev said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I don't "promote" it, comments here are not conducive to explaining positions on these issues. There are 2.5 years of archives. Yes, I'd like to get around to some summary "position papers" for newbies to understand better, but it was a truly effed up summer in so many ways it never happened, and now I've got my real job and life to attend to.

Sanjeev said...

> but their personal appearance as well

They promise weight loss LIKE THEY GOT. It's not the appearance that's being criticized, it's the MANIUPLATIVE, MISLEADING SALES TECHNIQUES.

And WHOSE weight is being scrutinized? It's not "people left and right", it's those whose supposed success story does not match the sales techniques.

So, does Simon not know how to search for specific information he wants?

Or does Simon prefer to randomly go all over the internet complaining left and right that people are not answering the specific questions he wants answered?

Do you know that people pick and choose subjects to focus on based on experience, aptitude, a perception of how they can best use their skills and knowledge, and so on and so forth? Or do you just not care?

You delight in vastly over-generalized vague accusations like "delights in skewering people" ... "people" instead of " ... people whose sales pitch is fishy ... " or do you just not care to be specific enough to accurately reflect the situation?

When will Google automate "ignore commenter"? vBulletin has had that for years and years already.

Sanjeev said...

And there's always that darn milk protein in cream being turned into glucose in the liver.

That really screws up some people, but like Jimmy always sez: find what works for you[0].

[0] and then adds quietly so no one hears: "and keep using it after it obviously stops working"

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Well Simon, my BMI borders on officially obese, but it is down from whatever it was when weighed around 100 lbs more. Low carb (my way) worked to lose those around 100 lbs but I've discussed many times my issues with where it left me including stopping working to lose more. I'm not going to waste time to rehash all of this here. If a woman wearing size 10 pants is obese to you but a man who wears 42" pants is sensationally skinny, there's no talking to you. But that I'm not at an ideal weight is the reason I don't have a book out there.

I spent a ton of time on Jimmy's discussion board and go back from time to time. It's like when I used to watch Days of Our Lives in college, and 20 years later caught an episode and still knew half the characters and plot lines. There are WAY more people struggling with LC than not ... because otherwise there would be no obesity epidemic. And the truly cruel thing about LC is that folks who regain fall off plan, and yet Jimmy remained LC yet gained a lot of weight back.

Tom dissed Jared for looking like he regained, yet he defends Jimmy. That concept is not too difficult.

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.fatnutritionist.com/

About

Hi. I’m Michelle, a fat lady with a nutrition degree. I’m also not a dietitian.

Why “fat”?
Because, to be perfectly frank, I’m fat. And I’m telling you this up front because I don’t want you getting the wrong idea about me.

See, I’m not here to give you a stern talking-to about your weight, or your eating habits, or your lack of exercise. And I’m certainly not here to pretend that I’m perfect, that I know it all, and that you’d better do what I say or else.

Nope. Not even remotely.

But I can help you get to a friendly place with food and your body.

So, I call myself fat because not only am I fat, I’m also not especially bothered by it. Because the size of my body, and your body, is morally neutral. Fat doesn’t equal lazy or ugly or even, necessarily, unhealthy.

It’s just a word.

This all might seem a bit strange, since I’m bigger than most people, let alone most nutritionists — but I’m a pretty normal person. And a damn good nutritionist.

Who is also fat.

Technical stuff:

I have a Dietitians of Canada-accredited bachelor’s degree in nutrition (with a focus on dietetics), and I work online to help people stop dieting and relearn normal eating. I’m 32 years old, and I’ve been doing nutrition stuff professionally (mostly in hospitals) since 2004.

I’m a student member of Dietitians of Canada, and the Association for Size Diversity and Health.

I’ve completed the American Dietetic Association-approved Treating the Dieting Casualty workshop, where I learned how to counsel people back into normal eating.

All told, I’ve worked in nutrition for eight years.

I’ve done clinical work as a diet tech in diabetes, eating disorders, and cancer, and I’ve supervised dozens of crazy therapeutic diets (renal dysphagic, anyone?)

I’ve helped teach people how to feed themselves through a tube, how to eat for an insulin pump, what to expect from chemo, and how to cope with new physical realities.

I’ve analyzed people’s diets and read their histories. I’ve held their hands. I’ve brought their Jello.

And I’ve pretty much loved every minute of it.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Simon, if Jimmy weighed 230 lbs and had not gone up and down the scale by 10, 20, 30 and 40lbs at a week's to month's clip, he would have more credibility as an advocate for LC based on his success. Get it?

He has no credentials to advocate it based on the science and has demonstrated poor skills in that area.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

LOL -- I'm cranky!

Simon Carter said...

Hi Sanjeev, I didn't realize that Evelyn appointed you as the editor of HER blog and that you now get to decide who gets to ask questions here. My understanding was that this is an open blog where anyone can post comments and questions. In fact Evelyn welcomed me as I was not part of the "echo chamber" as she put it. So why do you think you have the right to moderate her blog?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

@Simon: If ALL I did was advocate for the diet that I lost weight using, you darned well better believe that my weight and maintenance and all that would be the cornerstone of my credibility. What else does Jimmy bring to the table? An understanding of metabolism, science, etc.? No.

If, as you say, you read this blog, you will realize that my weight/weight loss and diet is not the focus nor the purpose for the blog. You'll also note that the only folks I question on those more personal topics are those for whom the personal story IS the only thing they bring to the table.

Jimmy's original podcast was good but has gotten increasingly more difficult to listen to. I won't even "go there" commenting on the LCC, but his Ask the Experts podcast is exactly what I'm talking about vis a vis Jimmy and "the community" -- he chooses experts adn injects his bias. Nora Gedgaudas an expert on starches? Yeah ... NOT!

Gabriella Kadar said...

OMG!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Gabriella, care to specify which comment the OMG is in regards to? Thx.

Unknown said...

I look to Brad Pitt as my role model for body composition maintenance.

Brad Pitt rocks.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

@Dave: Apologies if my last comment seemed snippy. I have a few moments to expand. I do believe ELMM does work for reversing "simple obesity" -- it's a matter of finding sustainable ways to eat less, and frankly MM can help one find more sustainable ways.

Sanjeev said...

I might not choose to read your comments much longer but I wasn't requesting that you stop commenting

please do keep commenting - looking up the definitions, I myself learned a couple of new uses of the word we were discussing and the fine difference with double standard.

Lighthouse keeper said...

What sets this blog apart is that it casts a rational skeptical eye on what is being pushed in the low carb / paleosphere and is very much an exercise in critical thinking, and the quality of said critical thinking has little to do with the body composition, eating habits or exercise regime of the critic.

Simon Carter said...

OK Evelyn, you make a good point. I agree that Jimmy has very little credibility because of numerous factors including his personal inability to lose weight on his version of a very low carb diet. However when you say that you have not promoted any diet or way of eating I thought that your position was ELMM, CICO, whole foods rather than processed, some exercise is good, etc. Don't you have pretty strong opinions about what is better for weight loss?

Lighthouse keeper said...

Is there not a difference between having opinions on, having a position on .... and promoting something?

Gabriella Kadar said...

Evelyn, just the 'to and fro'-ing between Charles and Simon and then Simon's comment to Sanjeev: it was all Abbott and Costello-esque except more childish.








Charles Grashow said...

ELMM, CICO, whole foods rather than processed, some exercise is good, etc.

Does this constitute a specific dietary regimen or suggestions as to what MIGHT work.

I don't believe that Evelyn has ever published her diet.

Zbig said...

from what I've recognized, there is large enough market in the US that multiple people can live entirely off their web sites directed to overweight people.

but the prerequisite that allows to do that seems to be this:
0) overweight 1) success story 2) book 3) blog 4) ads & sponsors
(a different model can work for doctors and scientists but it doesn't apply here)

in such frames, Evelyn seems to be on square 0 but the other foot is on square 3
JM is on square 4 and that's where jealousy starts :) There seems to be no shortcuts but maybe you'll find one.

I wonder if the US market is deep enough that you could live off exposing fails of weight loss gurus - if more citizens were cynical than obese, then probably.... but what kind of ads can be addressed to cynics?

My only complaint is monotony, it's all about Jimmy - aren't there other stars worth immortalizing on your blog?

Zbig said...

Charles Grashow wrote:
I don't believe that Evelyn has ever published her diet.

not in one piece, but it's like sculpting : in order to make Venus of Milo, you take a block of stone and get rid of the parts that are not like Venus - what remains is the thing.
Same goes for dietary advice - you read what Evelyn criticizes, you get rid of such behaviors on your side and guess what - you can be your own copy of Evelyn :)

Phil said...

I have spent the last few years reading blogs about paleo reading all these success stories. i lost weight going low carb and paleo but remained overweight.

Been reading for years about solutions relating to a leaky gut, eat more fat, cortisol.

Only on stumbling on the phony war with nikoley did i stumble on this blog. And the penny finally dropped. I was in the forest but couldn't see the trees. I finally started eating less and the weight started coming off.

In fact, before i entered into the paleo LC world i used to believe in ELMM CICO. I got completely hoodwinked by the pseudo science, paleo nonsense, taubes' theories. I'm now firmly in the eat quality food but less of it camp and for that I am grateful.

screennamerequired said...

Don't feel bad. I think most of us here got dragged into the pseudo science of lowcarb/paleo. The mind can play tricks on you when you're actually losing weight eating what you think is a massive amount of calories. And let's admit, Taubes does has a pretty slick and convincing tone of voice which makes it easier to fall into believing a lot of what he says, even though a lot of it does sound extremely dubious. Now that I can't stomach the stuff written on low carb/paleo forums I no longer post there, which pretty much leaves me stranded at the asylum. lol

MM said...

Hi Simon.

I'm not Evelyn, and I hesitate to speak for her, however I know she is a bit swamped right now. I think Evelyn has come to the conclusion that calories do count. This is from doing research into the claim many LC gurus make that not only calories don't count, but that if you're not losing weight you should eat more fat. Yes, I've seen this claim many times, believe it or not. I think Evelyn has also come to the conclusion that exercise can help with both weight loss and maintenance. This is in response to claims in the LC community that exercise not only doesn't not help, but actually can make you fat. I think Taubes may be the source of this one, but I'm not positive. I think calling them her recommendations is less accurate than her conclusions. Mainly they are the results of a lot of research, and I've read many of the papers they are based on as well. I would highly recommend that you read through Evelyn's old posts, as well as the papers they are based on. It is all very educational.

Phil said...

Thanks for the response. Yes. I fell for it hook line and sinker. Got swept along the insulin wave, then on to leptin and cortisol, leaky gut, damaged metabolism, metabolic advantage. I was always skeptical about much of it and i never liked cult leaders like nikoley but hey, we live and learn.

Simon Carter said...

Hi MM, I can totally appreciate that Evelyn has a life. She mentioned above that she would like to get around to some summary "position papers" for newbies to understand better. I think that would be helpful to those like me who come to her blog wondering what she is about. I also understand that she has not reached "conclusions" on everything, rather this is where she is currently and as as new information emerges, "positions" may change.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Sorry I can't satisfy your insatiable appetite for gossip. Oh yeah, the rest of this blog is not to your liking. One wonders why you bother reading then ...

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Welcome Phil! As snr notes, but moreso in his writings I believe, Taubes tells a convincing tale in GCBC. I don't recall who said it, but they were so riled up after the first parts of the book, it primed them to accept the obesity part uncritically.

It is most unfortunate, IMO, that paleo has dominated the more general ancestral movement in a way where they are trying to make some sort of science fit their reconstruction of some paleolithic human diet. It is no wonder so many are putting their own twists and qualifications on it, because on its face it seems so silly to look back tens of thousands of years and more, try to replicate a diet we can never know and would HAVE to vary widely with location and comprised foods we can not know with any degree of certainty, and reconstruct that with modern foods that barely resemble what might have existed way back when.

I say it often, that I'm so glad I didn't find the LC community back before I embarked on my LC weight loss in 2007. I worked off my 10 year n=1 history with various diets including LC.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Thanks Gabriella ... just wondering. Why is it always when I'm busy (and lose internet) that this sort of thing flares a bit?

BTW Simon, re Sanjeev, he has been reading and commenting here for a very long time so while I don't cede editorial control of comments to anyone, I'd say he's more than qualified (along with other long timers like MM who gets me the bulk of the full-texts not freely available) to explain things to people who just seem to focus on and pick at posts like this one.

As to your questions, someone's weight and size is not the whole of their existence. I'm healthy and happy and have no intention to ever make a living off my weight loss story for better or worse. I have a book in mind about low carbing in general based on the science, and I'll let anyone who considers buying that judge for themselves whether or not something written by me is worth reading.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

:-) I'm looking to Jen over Jolie though ;-)

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Wow ... why do things always get so busy when I do? I've had a chance to read all of the comments but not to reply to all.

Who would think anyone would have anything critical to say about pointing out blatant hypocrisy ... but this community never ceases to amaze me.

People seem to now focus on Jimmy's podcasts and that is part of the problem. He has branched out into naming "experts", and while some of those he has had on qualify, many others do not. It is this influence on the paleo community and his "king making" ability -- most notoriously of Jack Kruse -- that has been the source of discontent and dispute in that community. Not much of anything I write here. All of it -- including the "phony war" (good descriptive there Phil) -- traces back to this.

I only blog on what I read and know, because I mingled in Jimmy's circles for quite some time before I even started blogging. I didn't blog much about him for that very reason. But he lies to his readers routinely and I'm just the kind of person who when I read folks following and defending this guy can't remain silent. If what I expose doesn't change minds, so be it. It's really the only thing I ever blogged directly about Nikoley on -- that he had more knowledge of Kruse's shenanigans than he let on back when Krusegate broke but kept his thoughts to himself. Odd for someone who writes the way he does.

Laura Semmens said...

I have also followed JM's antics for years now. I continue to be amazed at how he seems to be convincing so many that he is any way Paleo and I hope that the real leaders ( so to speak) are distancing themselves. For a really long but really interesting insight on JM, check out this oldie-but-goodie.

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=364&highlight=Jimmy

Charles Grashow said...

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6942973737566951064&postID=8712783455404676111


"November 15, 2008 Low-Carb Menu"
17 Comments - Hide Original Post

7:45AM
1 20-ounce Coke Zero--0 calories

12:30PM
2 ounces of cashews--320 calories
2 hamburger patties--860 calories
4 small slices of fine Wisconsin cheeses (Jalapeno Jack, Colby Jack, Swiss, and Salsa Cheddar)--250 calories
1 Tbs mayo--100 calories

6:15PM
1 La Tortilla Factory low-carb wrap--50 calories
6 slices of deli turkey slices--45 calories
2 slice of American cheese--120 calories
1 Tbs mayo--100 calories
1/2 cup Blueberry Nut Flax Z Snax Granola--177 calories

TOTAL CALORIES: 2022

CURRENT WEIGHT: 253.2


NOTE: We finally made it back home from our trip to Hilton Head, SC this week for Christine's chelation therapy treatments and unexpected car repair...HOME SWEET HOME! Although I'm now officially "off" the "sweet"-free challenge, I'm being much more mindful of my calories and intake of sweet-tasting foods. Since I stayed away from all things sweet for the past nearly three weeks, I went ahead and tried a small sample of a new blueberry-flavored granola from one of my favorite low-carb companies Flax Z Snax. Delicious and just enough sweet for me. I won't make it a habit to eat that stuff everyday, but it was a nice little treat at the end of my dinner meal. My calories came way back down again today after yesterday's crazy total. Feeling good about my continued weight loss chances with my weighing continuing to come DOWN! Yee haw!

posted by Jimmy Moore at 3:34 PM on Nov 15, 2008

Charles Grashow said...

http://lowcarbmenu.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html

One year later - November 2009 - no longer posting his weight


http://lowcarbmenu.blogspot.com/2010/11/november-18-2010-low-carb-menu.html

One year later - 11/18/2010 - weight is 283.2

SO - 11/15/2008 he weighed 253.2 - TWO YEARS later on 11/18/2012 he weighed 283.2

He GAINED 30 POUNDS in 2 years while livin la vida low carb


Why does he have ANY credibility left

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Charles, it is WAY worse than that. I've been super busy so haven't had a chance to post it yet -- probably break it into two posts, there's so much where his weight is concerned. But this goes along with my Eat Less Move Moore post where when Jimmy ate less (through various strategies, including briefly counting calories) and moved more, he weighed less. Imagine that, eh?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Welcome! Hadn't seen that one yet ... wowzers, 526 pages of comments??!!! Interestingly, it was just after that sweet free challenge that in late 2008 to early 2009, Jimmy had managed to reverse his first "mysterious" weight gain to up to 274 from late 2007 through July-ish 2008.

He stopped doing what worked for him, and the predictable happened. But he got increasingly antagonistic towards his commenters ... and if you go read that menus blog most were not made in nasty tones.

Laura Semmens said...

ZIOH is Charles Washington's site, which you may already know. It was really fun to watch his reactions to this thread...it was pretty obvious that he kept up with it from what we saw him post on his menu blog.

LOL, I used to look forward to reading his menu blog everyday; I confess I miss it!

Really enjoy your site, btw.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Thanks! I didn't follow the menus "live" until several months after I found Jimmy's sites. The first "challenge" of sorts I read about was the one where he tried to get his waist to some proportion of his height or somesuch -- thrown down by Jade. The massive KK thread on LCF (or ALC or is that the same thing?) is a real eye opener as well. What is so strange to me is how he made allies from the KK fiasco. Ah well.

He may not be ZC now, but here 4ish years later, he's dang close and way lower carb. Wonder what he and Charles would say to one another today?!

Sanjeev said...

ah the memories ... Charles Washington's site.

Charles, Eades, Taubes, Hahn ... the go to guys to buck me up in the waning days of my health and my last gasp at Atkins

I would include Lex Rooker in there but while Lex seems a bipolar extremist (fasting, veganism, zero carb) by the time he ended up on ZC he didn't seem to be looking for any and all self-justification, he was (at least paying lip service) to the idea

"I'm only doing this as a test, if it doesn't work out I'll quit doing it"

Dustbunny said...

Wow, congratulations on being the Jimmy Moore expert. I'm amazed at how much you know about him. You must have been following him for many years. Does he know you write about him like this?

Charles Grashow said...

It's calling out BULLSHIT and HYPOCRISY

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yes he knows. He's been following (stalking? LOLOL) me for over two years now. He dares not mention my name anymore or link to me when he points fingers, though, because he knows I expose the truth about him. Better to wear Haters tees and hope newbies don't notice. It doesn't take much when you have the sort of memory I do to connect the dots. Stay tuned for more! He helps out from time to time by linking to posts from before I ever knew who he was too. Thanks Jimbo!

Sanjeev said...

> 4 small slices of fine Wisconsin cheeses (Jalapeno Jack, Colby Jack, Swiss, and Salsa Cheddar)--250 calories
__
FOUR types of cheese. In the US in 2008 he couldn't easily get more? They had better even in 1960s Britain

(or copy & paste to your URL bar to ensure work safety)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0#t=1m25s

He should try the Venezuelan Beaver cheese

the variety of JUST the flavours themselves is striking. but WOW ... smell, texture (rough/smooth), crunchiness, chewiness/rubberiness.

This must be a textbook example of reward system activation - the only major things missing are extreme sourness (like salt & vinegar potato chips) and temperature variation (gelatto/popsicle/ice cream & tea/coffee/refrigerated colas ... oh, sorry, there's the Coke Zero.)

> Why does he have ANY credibility left

I facetiously wonder if humans have a quackery setpoint - if we don't get enough quack in medicine maybe we'll look for it in high end audio equipment or automotive BS or ... diet.

one can find any dietary kook-i-ness of any desired intensity if one looks hard enough. Can't find it in North America? Try out Aryuveda/Ayurveda for ARTISTIC dietary tomfoolery.

We only touch on one segment of a vast corpus[0] because we have a history with this segment

[0] intentionally chosen word

Chris said...

Indeed .... That Zioh thread does bring back memories! I spent a lot of time commenting on Jimmys menus. Wasted time

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I remember you from my times commenting there too. I wish I'd read back to some of the previous years' comments before wasting my time. It is clear from early on Jimmy was not open to constructive criticism or ideas. It's part of what makes his much ballyhooed conversion to paleo and pronouncements about food quality so grating. For YEARS he resisted any indication! Nobody has gotten away with abusing the good will of others as much as Jimmy has. In real life he couldn't get away with this, but on the internet, folks just move on and a new crop of unsuspecting people come along to try to help thinking he's genuinely struggling. Don't get me wrong, he is struggling, with trying to find that magic formula that will allow him to eat enormous amounts of food and stay "sensationally skinny".

I read a page or two at ZIOH (over 500 pages, really!!!??? -- I need an audio translator thingy to read that too me while I'm cleaning house one day!) and had flashbacks to one thing I hadn't heard in a while: the phantom insulin surge from eating artificially sweetened foods. The reasons LC sweets are problematic is that they are often high fat/calorie. I remember once Jimmy was eating "cheesecake" daily -- an entire 8 oz container of whipped cream cheese mixed with some flavorings and artificial sweetener -- yeah it wasn't the 400 cals cream cheese on top of a huge meal causing weight to come on him without his permission ...

Chris said...

I actually feel embarrassed looking back over what I wrote and believed 4 years ago. I am in a different place with respect to diet now and am a lot leaner. I've written about it elsewhere but it took calorie counting for me to get my abs.

I gave up commenting on JM's blog because he was so frustrating. He did not really want advice or support. His diet was always strange. I remember a discussion at one point where someone noticed that many of his meals looked a lot like he had bought a big pizza and just scraped the topping off. Indeed, there were few actual proper "meals".

Unfortunately ELMM is true. Now it is not necessarily as straightforward as that - it is hard to EL if you are eating junk - but at root ELMM works.

Sue said...

Me too Chris. I am in process of losing weight via ELMM.

Laura Semmens said...

I don't agree that LC sweets are problematic only because they are high fat. In my own experience and that of many others, the taste of sweet really is addictive and the thread commenting on JM's struggles with fake sugars and highly processed LC products proved our point. If you don't eat sugar or fake sugar, you really don't miss it after awhile. He refused to accept this.

JM also ate a lot of restaurant meals, though he didn't usually mention that part. Lots of his meals were from some chain he had once done customer service for and seemed to have a lifetime discount with. So who knows what was *really* in some of those meals on the menu blog.

Chris said...

....and now the whole menu blog has been deleted. That is sad there was a lot of data there and some very personal history.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

It is sad for him. I hope he saved the blog for personal reference when one day he comes to grips with this whole deal. At this point I have a hard time summoning feelings of good will for a man who has tried to destroy me repeatedly - since long before I was publicly critical of him as well. My detractors will not see this, but it is plain as day from just the public actions, but there's more that nobody besides me and perhaps others who have been similarly targeted will pick up on b/c it effects me (us) on a very serious/personal level and involves events/interactions not publicly known. A low point for me in Jimmy's credibility was the LC Cruise and fallout vis a vis Jack. His stateroom was 5 doors down from Jack's and therefore he knows more than he's ever told about that. There's really no excuse for not coming out and stating that his eye witness accounts differed from Jack's various versions, and if anyone believes for a minute he was in some sort of isolation chamber during the entire cruise and oblivious to it all, they've got to be kidding themselves! This was no minor event, it was far larger than the cruise itself in some ways, and yet he never addressed it clearly hoping for it all to just go away. His more recent attempts have been to turn folks against me as if I -- a relatively uninfluential outsider -- could really have any impact on the paleo community if indeed whatever I write here is so unsubstantiated. Rather than come clean and/or just quietly change his ways, Jimmy has doubled down once again ... sweep troubling evidences under the rug and hope nobody notices.

Ahh well. So my next post or so concerning this issue will contain some dead links.

Diana said...

Simon,

Your point is that what Evelyn says is invalidated by the fact that she's overweight?

Because she is saying that Jimmy's points are invalidated by the fact that he is overweight?

If so, that is a misunderstanding of the issues.

Jimmy pushes LC dogma in whatever variant is in vogue. Yes, she refers to his own weight struggles. But that's because he makes himself the uber N=1 subject!!

If Evelyn pushes anything, it's the fact that calories count.

I discovered this blog, God knows how, as I was discovering that basic home truth myself. I had convinced myself that my metabolism was broken and all the LC bullshit.

I gave CICO a try, and guess what. I lost 20 pounds. I like to think I would have done it without Evelyn, but finding this blog certain helped.

By the way, and ironically, I have come to agree with at least a portion of the LC dogma: a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie - but not for the reasons they say. I believe in the thermic effect of food. Unfortunately for the LC dogmatists, this would force them to limit their fat intake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food

I do think this is an underrated issue in dieting.

Diana said...

Phil, your story is my story.

Diana said...

I remember one menu he posted in which he ate an entire pecan log.

Diana said...

@Laura, Perhaps I am on a new bandwagon here, but I do think that candy is dandy not only because of the sugar, but because of the fat. The vast majority of commercial confections are artful combinations of sugar and fat, or sugar, fat, and some kind of starch. Except for rock candy, and hard candies.

I don't know anyone, except junkies, who eat sugar straight from the box.

Woodey said...

"Why the different set of rules and standards for your buddy Jimmy?"

Someone once told me that a friend is someone who is willing to look past your hypocrisy. Tom likes Jimmy and this affection creates bias, which allows Tom to turn a blind eye or blow off Jimmy's problems.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Evelyn, I'm sure your third paragraph beginning 'as to your questions' was not directed at me because I didn't have any questions. It was them 'those guys' who discussed all of this in the most flagrant manner which I found over the top. You are being scrutinized, that's for sure.

Gabriella Kadar said...

They are both too thin. Jen was cute until she went almost anorexic. Kate Middleton, Duchess of whatever Cambridge, is too thin as well. It's so amusing all the speculation about whether she is pregnant.....the poor chick is so thin she probably doesn't even get her periods anymore.

Lesley Scott said...

"They are both too thin." Sorry, have to disagree. I think Jen looks so much more chic now than she ever did during her more zaftig days in the earlier seasons of Friends. Ditto the Duchess - she's very chic I think at her current svelte weight.

Laura Semmens said...

Soda?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Jen is not "too thin" in my opinion, but her face looked better in her "zaftig days" if you ask me. Not just because of aging, but her chin/jaw looks better with a little padding IMO. My body before my first diet = Jen in the jellyfish pee episodes.

Kate looks great, though I've seen some pictures where she does appear to be a bit too thin. Some women forget to eat under stress and I think she's probably one of them.

Diana said...

Point taken.

Evelyn has expressed doubts as to whether sugar is addictive. I'm on the fence.

Diana said...

Actually, to add to the above, I'm not exactly on the fence. I read a lot about how sugar excites the dopamine receptors, etc. But does it excite the dopamine receptors more than, say, a cheeseburger? Mac and cheese? A rare steak, if that's your drug of choice?

Diana said...

Sanjeev, please don't take this the wrong way, but your "quackery setpoint" made me think of sadhus.

bentleyj74 said...

Soda = sugar + stimulants + flavorants + carbonation.

Sanjeev said...

I'm of 2 minds on those guys - the nuttiness amazes me

BUT they don't proselytize[0], so much of my ire toward other irrationality doesn't apply.

[0] not to white tourists anyway ... as an atheist with Indian ancestry I get "special" treatment

Sanjeev said...

I laughed out loud @ one of his videos, I forget which one:

In the same breath, with no negation between them, he mentions Carol Tavris alongside Gary Taubes.

He seriously equates the 2.

ROFLSMC&SU (ROFL 2 stomach muscles cramping & and seizing up)

Diana said...

Just one more comment to add to the rest about legitimacy. I wrote to Evelyn privately about why she doesn't lose more weight. She answered that she just doesn't have the motivation/energy it takes to accomplish this.

I can totally relate to this. I lost 26 pounds, gained 8, and am struggling not to gain more. The idea of losing 13 more pounds to get down to my ideal weight is hugely daunting, because I remember the single-minded focus it took to lose the 1st 20 of the 26 pounds.

Full disclosure: I wrote to Evelyn & asked her if I could share this info and she said yes. No conspiracies here.

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