las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Saturday, December 15, 2012

Ass hat LC Doctors

I'm hoping to get to my analysis/comments of the hyperinsulinemia paper in Cell , that's causing all the buzz on the internet lately, published up by tomorrow.  Such posts require more attention to detail and seriousness than posts such as this one.  But it's a nice little break from my real life grind at the moment to bring you a little commentary such as this post.

The LC position on insulin is getting to be downright ridiculous.  But the title of the paper, "Hyperinsulinemia Drives Diet-Induced Obesity Independently of Brain Insulin Production" can be quickly read as "Insulin causes obesity", which led two LC docs to jump right in.  First, Eades tweeted:

Hilarious. Researchers @ UBC stumble onto the fact that insulin stores fat. As if they're the 1st to notice this. 

paul weston @paulhweston    @DrEades " bless me, what do they teach them at these schools!" Digory Kirke
     have only read the lay interpretation you provided, but how the hell did that study make it into Cell Metabolism?
      According to that article, dietary fat is the cause of excess endogenous insulin. Gosh.
    but won't they (incorrectly) claim that high fat meals cause insulin spike as per the mouse study?
     I know. It beggars belief.
      Did they report any new findings on the wetness of water?
     didn't they also break some story last year something about bears.. in the woods..
Mary Lewis @mem_lewis   @DrEades @KVoelks high fat can mean and typically does with rodents fat+sugar. It didn't say 100% fat. I'm sure O6pufa and I bet sucrose.
Nice mockery there, eh?  A followup tweet was not much better.  But not to be one-upped, his cohort in metabolic crime, Diet Doctor Andreas Eenfeldt, took it a step further.  In a post entitled "It's the Insulin, Stupid".  Not only did he apparently not read the study, but he took the time to "doctor" the graphics from the paper!  I mean really, how steeped in dogma do you have to be to stoop to this level?  


Ummm ... OK ... I guess this means that Eenfeldt believes High Fat Diet = Bad Food ;-)  Or rather that he doesn't respect the intelligence of his audience enough to present the original graphic that implicates a HFD for that study.  (Not to mention respect for copyright and fair use laws where he has materially altered the content of a graphic without notice, and attributes it to Johnson by inference of linking to his study -- VERY bad form.)  He writes:
The researchers, publishing the study in the high-impact journal Cell Metabolism, conclude that too much fat-storing insulin is a necessary cause of common diet-induced obesity (press release).
In humans the main cause of elevated insulin is eating too much junk carbohydrates. 
BTW, I refer to people by first and/or last names when writing my blog.  Some choose one or the other,  I tend to mix and match.  My choice should not be interpreted either way as inferring anything negative (some think last names can be disrespectful in a being-obnoxious way, while first names are often construed as disrespectful in a patronizing or demeaning way).   But when interacting directly with someone on the internet, this isn't rocket science.  You refer to someone by their first name or used/preferred pseudonym.  Anything else is generally intentional and telling of the person doing so and their intent to demean, disrespect or something else.  On Stephan's last post, Eenfeldt chimes in addressing him as "Guyenet".  



Andreas Eenfeldt said...

Guyenet,
Regarding your argument regarding the rare obese gentleman with normal insulin:
Does finding a black swan suggest that all white swans are a myth?
Obviously there are many possible causes of obesity, not just one. But the most common by far seems to be hyperinsulinemia. And the large majority of obese people have abnormally high insulin, as you know.


I realize English is not his first language, but I believe Sweden follows similar salutatory norms.  Even if not, this man has been around long enough to know better, so this was an affront, I believe deliberate, but perhaps subconscious.  How fitting, then, that he discusses the color of swans, eh?  I mean isn't Eades the one who goes on and on (and on and on) about Popper and his black swans?  In this case the black swans are inconvenient to the shillerati, so now they should be ignored in favor of the white swans where they can hypocritically equate correlation with causation to advance their dogma.  

If the simplistic hypothesis (not Johnson's, but the TWICHOOB's) is that high insulin causes fat accumulation and thus obesity, yes, black swans like the man pictured in Stephan's post are damning.  As are LIRKO and the many cases where hyperinsulinemia peacefully coexists with the non-obese state.   More on that hopefully tomorrow.  Back to the real life stuff ... 

29 comments:

Mir Writes said...

It is sad that the "experts" don't address the study seriously. The mockery is kinda childish. They have folks hanging on their every word, which makes me think they ought to be even more cautious and respectful when discussing these things...

Diana said...

Re addressing Stephan as "Guyenet." I noticed that. It was an affront. Honestly, how petty can a person get?

Sue Staltari said...
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Lighthouse keeper said...
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Lighthouse keeper said...

Interestingly it is Nassim Talib who is most closely associated with the Black Swan Theory these days. Nassim Taleb is on the advisory board of NuSi.

Hiit Mama said...

I think he's a DeVany-ite. Also an economist. Of course he's one to be consulted on all things nutrition.

naveed qumer said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
LeonRover said...

Mind you, if Eenfeldt really wished to belittle Stefan he could have addressed him as Guyenette . . . but he chose not to.

Javeux said...

I read about the doctored image and laughed, but seeing it makes it seem a lot less funny. It takes LC cherry-picking to a whole new level of shilling deceit, and hopefully at least a few people who come across this have the wool pulled from over their eyes.

Unknown said...

The other day my insulin spiked and I turned into a Newt.

Kade Storm said...

And a very pompous, subtly elitist economist at that, with a clear-cut slant that translates in his condescending put downs of other models that aren't any more fragile than his own cleverly veiled endorsement of market anarchy, and by extension, social anarchy.

I not surprised that he's ended up with these contrarians. There was once a time when the intellectual ether was populated by a more credible, non-self-serving breed of contrary thinkers, but now they've passed and given way to these alternative agenda apologists.

LynMarie Daye said...

I think Taleb and DeVany co-authored a book. Obviously, I have not read it.

However, I did read ‘The Black Swan’ and thoroughly enjoyed it; one of the top ten books I’ve ever read. Apropos to this thread, Taleb did have something to say about dietary fiber in ‘The Black Swan’: “The same with the dietary fiber found in fruits and vegetables: doctors in the 1960s found it useless because they saw no immediate evidence of its necessity, and so they created a malnourished generation. Fiber, it turns out, acts to slow down the absorption of sugars in the blood and scrapes the intestinal tract of precancerous cells.”

I’m willing to bet a number of his fellow board members don’t agree with him on the anti-cancer benefit of fiber scraping the intestinal tract. But if they’re willing to have him as a member, maybe that’s a good sign. Or maybe not. I really like him and am hopeful he will be a tempering force, if you know what I mean.

JJ said...

Hi Evelyn (I hope that is OK :-),

Thanks for bringing this to my attention on Twitter and to your readers here. As an outsider to this debate, I must say it has been an eye opener. Mocking and image doctoring (pun intended) mostly make me laugh, but you are right people hang on their every word, so it is also sad to have so little respect for the evidence in what should be an 'evidence-based' discussion. Most of them haven't looked at the paper and are extrapolating the concepts outside the limits of the data. People also hang on the words of people who don't like the conclusions of the paper. In a perfect word, people would carefully read the paper for themselves and/or ask the author themselves if they have any questions (this is an open offer @JimJohnsonSci). Baring that, it is important for those 'translating' the paper to take a conservative approach to its conclusions, just like we scientists do. But, one has to also be open to the concepts that are supported by the data. And, finally, I agree 100% that this debate could use some civility. Smart people need to take the higher ground. Real scientific debate can be lively, but there is no need for mockery or name calling.

As an aside, my colleagues generally think I am crazy for entering into such a public discussion, but I think it is important. The more intelligent debate I hear, the more I think it is the right decision. I'm looking forward to your careful analysis of the paper.

Jim

Kade Storm said...

"I really like him and am hopeful he will be a tempering force, if you know what I mean."

No.

Dave said...

These tweets remind me of Jimmy's dicussion forum where he posts media articles every few days that *support* the LC dogma, of course always jumping to rash conclusions.

Jane said...

Jim, if you are interested in a collaboration with Antony Galione to look at calcium oscillations in adipocytes, let me know and I will talk to him. He and I have been discussing this for a while.

eulerandothers said...

Maybe Taleb WILL be a tempering force - if he sticks around.

NuSi's website says that the problem is that 'Current dietary guidelines are not based on rigorous science.'

When I think of 'rigorous science,' Gary Taubes' name does not come to mind. He is a journalist. So perhaps the people who are associated with NuSi, some of whom are in the sciences, such as Taleb, will offer useful perspectives to the project. There are lots of advisors - they can't all be hacks! In the meantime, Taubes has found employment (donate now - 90% of every dollar raised goes to research...)

Kade Storm said...

*Sighs.* It's hard to overlook Taleb's intellectual gems (http://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2010/06/god-cameron-detractors). So I can't help but laugh at all this goo and gaa over Taleb. Are we that desperate that we put stock in a man who literally drones on arrogant allegations against his opposition, allegations that probably apply to him a hell of a lot better than those that he targets? Pfft! If that's the epitomising example of what will help NuSI, then I don't even share any opening optimism.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Caveman Doc is the latest to tweet how this study shows why LC diets work. Double sigh.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Hey Jim,

Yes, I actually prefer Evelyn when talking to folks, though I'm more recognizable as CarbSane about zee internet. Your colleagues are probably right ;-) But I agree it seems to have generated some intelligent conversation.

Finally published up round 1. I ran out of steam/time and will save the other animal model stuff for another day. Interested in your thoughts and ideas.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

LOL!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I think it's telling too that he didn't correct the record on his blog. He is aware I called him out on Twitter and Jim tweeted to him as well. Bad form.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

The more I learn about who is behind NuSI, the stranger it all seems!

blogblog said...

@eulerandothers,

"When I think of 'rigorous science,' Gary Taubes' name does not come to mind. He is a journalist."

Taubes studied applied physics at Harvard and has an MS in aeronautical engineering from Stanford. By any objective measure he had an intellectually rigourous training in scientific methodology.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

@blogblog, if he had rigorous training, he's not applied it to his craft. But his education could very well include never designing even the most rudimentary of scientific experiments.

Lerner said...

For decades, there'd been a saying that "engineers can prove on paper that a bumblebee can't fly". Taubes is the kind of boob who would watch a bumblebee actually flying, then announce that they still can't fly and it's up to him (in his unique genius) to finally do the correct experiments to prove so.

Having a mind clouded by megalomania trumps any other factor.

Low carbers get fat when they overeat, carb eaters don't get fat unless they overeat. Taubes is a boob.

Lerner said...

wrt Eenfeldt: when dealing with low carb advocates, the rule applies as usual - one must always wonder what they are concealing.

eulerandothers said...

To his credit, Taubes does make the point that he is not a scientist. I'm pretty sure he has had to speak up from time to time and remind people that he's not a doctor. Gary Taubes is a science journalist. He does mention having studied science, but then, lots of science journalists have done.

In the field of obesity research, those disclaimers do matter. Or at least, ya'd think...

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