las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Thursday, January 31, 2013

Angelo Coppola comments on LLVLC blog

If Jimmy Moore ran an open and honest ship over at his blog, I would leave a respectful (as I always did) comment there in support of the comments Angelo Coppola of Humans Are Not Broken blog (and Latest in Paleo podcast ).

I guess since he invoked his name in his 10 Critical Issues The Paleo Community Must Address* Jimmy allowed Coppola to respond in what the astute observer would recognize as a rather critical manner.  

In his first response, Angelo corrected Jimmy that his blog has nothing to do with broken metabolisms and such, but then bravely went on to suggest some other things the community really needs to do.  I copy the relevant excerpts here because some of these have been discussed by yours truly numerous times, however flawed the delivery may appear to some in the audience.  I'll bullet point it for ease on the eyes:
Regarding the list you've compiled, I would scratch most of the items off and add a few that I view as far more important:
1) Leaders in this community not calling each other out when it is totally justified, thus avoiding much healthy debate and/or allowing sloppy thinking and ideas to persist;
2) recognizing and addressing eating disorders among those who are trying Paleo approaches;
3) recognizing the undo influence that the low-carb community has exerted on the Paleo approach. All of these occur occasionally, just not often enough.
I couldn't agree more, and good on you Angelo!  The eating disorder topic has been swept under the rug, apparently for years now.  There are far too many people with ED doling out dietary advice and browbeating others into following in their orthorexic footsteps in this community.  Antagonism?  Nothing screams antagonism louder than accusing people who nourish their body with carbohydrate-derived energy (and associated nutrients, or frankly just the "empty calories") of being addicts.  T.H.I.S.  M.U.S.T.  S.T.O.P.



So anyway, Angelo made another comment in response to a reply by Stacy & Matt (the paleo parents, I think it was Stacy** that commented) :
Finally, you mentioned "continue to being honest, open, and respectful." What I'm seeing is that we need to *start* being more honest, open, and respectful.  Honest and open: who do we *disagree* with and why?   Respectful: Yes, to our readers. We owe them more than giving everyone in the community pats on the back and affiliate links.
Elsewhere in comments, others have called for better vetting of the so-called "experts" and Jimmy Moore is playing dumb.  Why who could they be talking about? ***

I would still like for there to be some sort of definition of paleo.  It's astounding that such a large movement can be built and grow on a concept of what is impossible to know.  All of the other euphemisms except ancestral are meaningless.  As is Mr. Moore calling himself paleo.  The Paleoista would be horrified at his diet, one would need to skim but a smattering of her posts to reach that conclusion.  But I've gone on a tangent there.  Before getting to my footnotes (feel free to click the X at the horizontal line) I would like to repeat what I think was the most important statement made by Angelo Copolla:
Respectful: Yes, to our readers. We owe them more than giving everyone in the community pats on the back and affiliate links.
He's made a few more comments worth a look and a scroll.   Will anyone listen?



*  I agree with Melissa that Jimmy's post is better described as a laundry list of things he'd like the paleo community to do to make it easier for him to scam and profit off of the label.  Period.  He would like nothing more than for those who point out his scamming and lying to go away.

** If by some minute chance Stacy reads this, let me first express my admiration for your courageous blogging.  If you really want to get to the bottom of  "WTF is wrong with you" why not visit the doctor and get some simple tests.  There are very few people who are carbohydrate intolerant, if they even exist.  By that I mean carbohydrate metabolism itself is difficult to irreparably break, and the very rare few with genetic disorders in this metabolic pathway do not fare well from birth.  Diabetes is not even a disease of carbohydrate intolerance it is one of insulin dysregulation and/or deficiency.  Find out if you are secreting insulin properly in response to carbs and work from there.  Same with auto-immune issues, gut health, etc.   Seek information at least through personal evaluation by a doctor, not random blog posts by Wheat Belly, Robb Wolf, etc.  

***  If the upcoming guest hosting of The Livin' La Vida Low Carb Show by Stefani Ruper (Feb. 11) doesn't epitomize what is wrong here, I don't know what does.  Jimmy having her as a guest host when she's (a) not a low carber, (b) never defined her paleo diet, (c) claimed that going paleo made matters worse, (d) hasn't cured her own PCOS, and (e) has lied about and inflated her credentials.  And then there's Stefani going on LLVLC Show given that (a) it lends whatever credibility her appearance can to the "damaged goods" that is JimKKKins Moore, (b) speaking of Kimkins is the podcast of a man who scammed lots of women with a starvation diet.  Ahh well ... gotta love this pair ;-)


83 comments:

Unknown said...

Aside from the "you don't need carbohydrates!" stuff, one I would tack on is the attitude towards physical activity. It's okay to do a Paleo Blog Inc. post on exercise so long as you preface it by exclaiming how much you hate to exercise, it is not permissible to write a post which begins "I love to exercise, so this weekend I ...."

And if you do exercise, you must run marathons. It is not permissible to run 3 miles, either you run 26.2 or you don't run at all.

Weight training is okay but you must preface your comments by declaring your disgust with and disdain for commercial gyms. Ideally you will do your weight training with something cumbersome and highly inconvenient, such as the corpse of a freshly killed big horn sheep.

Javeux said...

#1: Disband.

Nick said...

LOL

Nick said...

LOL

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Interesting point about the marathons. I've noticed that too. Going for a brisk walk -- which for most overweight is equivalent cardiowise to running -- for an hour 6 days a week is poo pooed. You must run marathons! Heck, be fat adapted ultramarathoner!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

#2 Disband. ;-)

Unknown said...

Walking isn't cool enough to burnish your guru credentials.

Erik said...

Where do you guys get this stuff? Which paleo writers (or "gurus") discount walking?

Diana said...

Walking is OK now, because it has an official name: LISS, or Low Intensity Stead State. Get with it guys. What was formerly a girly, wuss form of exercise is now certified AOK because it has a stupid acronym.

I like Angelo's take, but I don't think anyone's gonna clean up the pandemonium that is Paleo/LC. When you have guys like Nikoley promoting young women with borderline personality disorder (Ruper, Woo), as "stars" it's hopeless.

Charles Grashow said...

#3 Disband

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

~ Ideally you will do your weight training with something cumbersome and highly inconvenient, such as the corpse of a freshly killed big horn sheep.~~

(hahahahah) If big horn sheep were involved, I might actually love weightlifting. Can we get llamas in on it, too. Live ones, though. :)

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

Walking was acceptable as far back as, what, 2010, when I started reading some of the Paleo/Primal peops. I remember the advice to take long rambling walks (like hunters looking for prey, I suppose), interspersed with sprinting for 30 seconds or so (chasing prey?). Hubby and I did that, too, during my main losing phase. Walking and a couple times doing the sprinting for a few seconds. My left knee soon put the kibosh on sprinting, though. Hubby thought maybe we should imitate dragging prey home with something. hahahahh

Walking's good for us. Always will be. We're made for it. Period.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

I am with Dr. Cate that sugar can be addicting --and I've seen books and articles that address how it lights up the reward/pleasure centers and you crave it and you have symptoms similar to withdrawal when you give it up (or try to). It's allure. How we have sugar sensors not just on the tip of the tongue but all the way down and even in the other parts of the digestive system.

But fat is "addictive", too. We like fat. We like a lot of it. More fat makes us happy. Jimmy likes his fat. Low-carbers can eat an 80% fat diet at times. I find I miss fat from some foods. Potatoes aren't alluring without EVOO or butter or sour cream, for instance. When those fat-free cookies were the rage, I hated them. Take out the fat and it sucked. I wanted the fat. fat free cheese = ew.

And "potshots". How often have we seen the LC crowd throw potshots at the low-fat crowd or the low-salt crowd or the vegan crowd? Pretty often.

Tribal it may be, but if one is going to knock down a question: "Does extended very low carb cause thyroid issues?" and one is a Doctor...then maybe a few studies or research to back up that it's not connected in any way might be helpful. Brushing it aside is not science. Responding with real information would give her credence. So, she should have said, "I will get the info together and put up a blog post to answer that question." No, she just laughs and says it's not a problem.

What if it is a problem? That caller, I guess, won't know unless they go off on a search for actual science behind it. Not much of an expert guest if they can't be bothered to offer real information, even if the information is, 'Anecdotal to this point, no real studies done.'

Her answer was so unimpressive.

Charles Grashow said...

http://anthonycolpo.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-bad-for-your-thyroid/

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/08/carbohydrates-and-the-thyroid/

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/06/low-carb-hypothyroid-healthy.html



Steven Hamley said...

Angello's comments were excellent

Cate Shanahan: combating ad hominem with ad hominem

And some of the commenters on Jimmy Moore's post complained of ageism in the Paleo community, but I see a lot more ageism against young people's thoughts in the low carb community (from the perspective of a 21 year old)

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

I know. :) I just wondered why she didn't refer to any studies.

One of the reasons I altered my diet last year to add more carbs after doing moderated carbs was I had read Anthony and Dr. Jaminet. My medication has been reduced twice since then, and I'm now HYPERTHYROID according to the TSH test from this week. I followed Dr. Jaminet's advice re supplements, what to check. I guess the carbs helped with that. I see the endo next week, and I guess I'll be lowered again. Whether it was the zinc/copper or carb uptick or carbs and supplements, whatever. I need less levoxyl.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, watch out. If you even suggest that certain bloggers should check out anything medical, not only will you discover a blog entry with your name on the title, but all sorts of bizarre things will be attributed to yourself. You have actually proffered a psychiatric diagnosis. Run and hide girl. LOL!

Gabriella Kadar said...

Princess, get the free T3 and T4 checked as well. TSH is not always a reliable indicator of what is happening. TSH can be very low but depending on how your body metabolized T4 into T3 is important.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Another thing: low carb diets in goitrogenic areas can result in a severe reduction in the ingestion of iodized salt.

Diana said...

Bring 'em on. I've got a thick skin. I don't rattle easily.

Diana said...

I tried Dr. Cate and checked out when I read that she thinks flossing your teeth is bad.

What a crew.

Unknown said...

@Erik: The Paleo Blog Inc. gurus discourage any form of exercise that isn't totally ridiculous, and walking just isn't sufficiently ridiculous.

Now walking on your hands while holding a stick in your mouth, and at the end of the stick is balanced a a dinner plate, and on the dinner plate is balanced a small dog who is also standing on ITS front paws, that's something they can get behind.

Johnny said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, sorry in advance if this is totally OT and OTT. Evelyn can delete it of course.

As a dentist (horrors) I'm not particularly a fan of flossing because an awful lot of people, not all people, don't have the manual dexterity or understanding to do it properly. Hence I recommend either using a WaterPik oral irrigator (and even then it needs to be explained) or a rubber tip massager.

My pet peeve: Nylon bristle has the same surface charge as dental plaque. The two substances repel one another. Electron microscopic evidence indicates that a brush with nylon bristles only removes the plaque that is directly scraped off. The pictures show dental plaque with little streaks missing where the nylon has run through it. It is a highly inefficient means of removing biofilm (aka dental plaque).

Natural bristle is better because it has the opposite surface charge and hair has a scaley surface which increases it's ability to remove plaque. (Think of a nylon comb running through hair: static attraction.) Industry makes nylon bristle brushes because the nylon can be fused to the head of the brush whereas it is much more complicated and difficult to get natural bristle to stay attached to the head of the brush.

However, being a natural substance, bristle needs to be kept very clean. Toothbrushes should be allowed to fully dry out between uses. So even with nylon brushes, a person should have more than one on the go at any time. How long it takes for a brush to fully dry out between uses depends on ambient humidity and temperature. (And don't wet the brush before use.)

(I've been known to tell my patients to feel their teeth after they've brushed them. Then rub the teeth with a moist washcloth and feel again. If the teeth are smoother after rubbing with the cloth, it means the brushing wasn't thorough.)

These days hybrid brushes are being manufactured. These have both nylon and rubbery paddles included. These materials will 'pull' plaque off the teeth and hence these brushes are more effective than nylon only brushes. They are also significantly more expensive especially when part of an electric brush.

The rubber tip massager is effective because plaque gloms onto it. Stick one between a couple of really dirty teeth and look at what's on the tip. Wow!

The WaterPik oral irrigator is excellent because not only does it flush debris from between teeth, it also draws non-adhesive plaque from the gingival sulcus (under the gumline) via the Venturi effect. (go back to high school physics on this one or think of what hurricanes do to windows.) It massages the tissues without damaging them. Of course everything can be used to the point of abuse.

There's a mouthwash and toothpaste (Biotene) on the market (made in the USA) that contains enzymes, xylitol and zinc gluconate. This stuff digests the biofilm, prevents stain accumulation, and removes the guck that develops on the back of the tongue. The mouthwash does not contain alcohol or fluoride. It's not supposed to be rinsed out with water and it ROCKS!

My ambition in life is to have patients not need me.

I'll shut up now.

Gabriella Kadar said...

How about using a pogostick in a science lab? I heard that on the radio today about doing something besides sitting at work.

Sanjeev said...

I've been wondering why an adhesive tape is not available impregnated with fluoride, like the bleach tapes that are out there. I would never buy the bleaching stuff but could see myself easily buying a fluoride tape.

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places? Or are there safety issues with making that available to Joe Q Public?

> being a natural substance, bristle needs

I don't know if I've ever actually seen these ...

So what are we talking about / what do we ask for - badger hair? wool? porcupine needles? Hair of the dog?

> should be allowed to fully dry out between uses.

How about microwaving / boiling between uses?

I'll start playing with the rubber ... oh the puns that could be made. As for flossing, I see your point. I often manage to cramp one or 2 fingers - I just flossed every night before bed for a little over 6 months. I've always flossed, just not with extreme regularity, sometimes skipping a month or more.

I'll definitely research the Biotene. Has it gone through a regular pharmaceutical style approvals process? (Health Canada)/(European Union equivalent)/FDA ?

Diana said...

Interesting stuff, Gabriella. I've had good success with flossing, but I have considered buying a WaterPik as well. I am a fanatic on oral health after being a very bad little girl for many years (during my high sugar binge years, alas, resulting in much dental work). And I'll look up the Biotene as well.

I've always liked the natural bristle brushes they sell at a store nearby (Fairway). It's some German product, I forget the name. The brush I use now is probably nylon. I got it....from my dentist.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Sanjeev, Biotene is available in Canada. It's not a prescription item. Much cheaper in the USA. The cheapest I've found is at Costco but they are not reliable in carrying it (behind the counter at the pharmacy). All drugstores carry it in the dental care aisle at varying prices. SDM can barely keep it in stock and they charge the highest price for it!

Check out the Biotene website for more information. I use the one with the green label.

The bristle is pig, so haram. But on that note, many or most major commercial toothpastes contain animal derived glycerin. (I called up their info lines)

Toothpaste foams because it has soap in it. Foaming is not required for a toothpaste to do its job. Biotene toothpaste does not foam. If you want foam, put a few drops of the mouthwash in your mouth, then start brushing with the toothpaste. The thickening agent in the mouthwash is methylcellulose which will foam.

After using Biotene for a few months I thought, what the heck, use the colgate...........tasted like soap! I'd never noticed that before.

Your dentist should have sample boxes so ask at your next appointment.

I do not know if Biotene is a publicly traded company.

The big dental products manufacturers have long ago stopped manufacturing bristle brushes. But as you have noticed Diana, the Germans are still making them. Buy the smallest one you can find. Smaller brushes are more accurate for the job.

paleotwopointoh said...

Dear Evelyn,
I have a question. Do you have access (easily) to the posts that a given commenter has commented on?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Cate was doing her flossing thing while trying to sell the Ora Wellness stuff. Nuf said :(

I will second Gabriella's rec on the Biotene products though. I do prefer a whitening toothpaste, but their mouth wash is excellent. Thankfully I don't suffer from it but folks in a group I was involved in when I had some oral surgeries swear by Biotene for dry mouth.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yeah, the ageism I see both ways. It's probably part of the rift between LC and paleo that came about because of Jimmy Moore. The LLVLC cult leaders tend to be older than the paleos. Jimmy himself acts like he's older than he is (metabolically). While the "damaged metabolism" and other euphemisms have been ratcheted up in the past couple of years, it's been around for a while and you have these older low carbers who truly beieve they have innate intolerance to carbohydrates looking at the younger paleos with that "just wait you whippersnapper, your potato-eating days will come to an end". Meanwhile if I'm a young paleo (or an "old" me), I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing from the older low carb community.

Then we have the reaction of the crowd to S.Boyd Eaton eating shredded wheat ;-)

Gabriella Kadar said...

Evelyn, it's really good for prevention of a viral throat infection from turning into a secondary bacterial infection. I've been promoting it as an aide for this and getting major happy feedback from patients. Viral infection = sore throat 2 to 3 days.... gargle with Biotene 3 times a day.... pain gone.

Our own bacterial flora infect the disrupted mucosa in the throat. Biotene reduces the amount of biofilm in areas where it accumulates.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Fresh killed big horn sheep! I second Princess with the LOL.

Gabriella, Pogo stick? I dunno about that, but back when I was in pharma, our instrument room was a ways down the hall from my lab I would have loved to have a pair of those sneakers with roller wheels in them!

The way I see it, Paleo now "owns" the Jimmy Moore abomination version. This brings with it the general LC disdain for exercise having any value for weight management because "Gary Taubes tells us". Everyone is into "exercising differently" or not at all. I do think that the anti-exercise thing is Paleo JM™ thing taking what some of the paleos (like Sisson's talk against "chronic cardio") to a new level.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Not that I'm aware of. Are you looking for a comment, or just curious about trends?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

The antimicrobial properties of xylitol seem fairly well founded as well. I haven't looked into it lately -- my own need for the stuff is over a decade ago now.

For those with problems flossing, get the Oral B Ultra or Crest Glide thin ribbon floss.

Diana said...

Maybe the confusion over exercise just reveals that most people don't like to exercise without a good reason to. I'm not saying that this is conscious - it isn't. And in this, they are truly Paleolithic. Did Paleo man/woman ever move around without good reason?

Don't get me wrong - I'm in favor of consciously setting aside time to exercise. But that's because we must replace what was required in daily life with something conscious.

I think that the desire to conserve and to rest overrides the desire to move (in most people). We need reasons to move. No one should feel bad if they say, "I hate to exercise." I think most athletes do, too.

Back to the Paleoists, all of these silly faddish "musts" and "do this, don't do that" just illustrates their eccentric, cultish behavior. Obviously, the best exercise is the exercise you can do, on a consistent basis, without injury.

Diana said...

"Cate was doing her flossing thing while trying to sell the Ora Wellness stuff. Nuf said :( "

LOL.

Sanjeev - You can get Biotene via Amazon. I just did.

Gabriella - Thank you! Although I've gotten excellent results from basic oral care for the past 5 years, I'm always on the lookout for new methods. I ordered Fuchs brushes (the medium, because the soft ones get REALLY soft), Biotene paste & oral rinse, last nite via Amazon. Next up is a Water Pik. I'm not stopping the flossing no matter what anyone says. It's a habit. I've actually come to enjoy it.

Another non-Paleo lifestyle I practice. I'm considering patenting the name, "Neo-Neo-lithic."

Diana said...

""just wait you whippersnapper, your potato-eating days will come to an end". "

Guffaw. My potato eating days started at age 56 and I think I look better than most of them.

Diana said...

"But on that note, many or most major commercial toothpastes contain animal derived glycerin. (I called up their info lines) "

OK this is extremely O/T, but never use a cosmetic or dental product that is manufactured in China, in your body, or on it. Or give such a product to your pet.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/05/07/24765.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/world/americas/06poison.html?pagewanted=all

Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, ;)... people who like to floss should floss. I am definitely not against the practice.

Right now I've got braces on and floss cannot effectively remove the stuff that gets wrapped around and wedged in. I mentioned to my genius orthodontist yesterday, "I've got gaps where all the food groups have kitchen parties." Sometimes Stimudents are the only effective weapon.

Actually I got into the Biotene because of my cats. When I began brushing their teeth with the veterinarian toothpaste I was very impressed. One morning I brushed my teeth with the Colgate, looked in the mirror and saw plaque along the gumline above the braces. I figured maybe the brush was 'dead' so I took out a new brush and did it all again with the same disappointing result. Hm. (insert choice cusswords here) I put the cat toothpaste on the brush and did it all again. Clean teeth! So, what the heck? Enzymes.

p.s. Poultry flavoured cat toothpaste isn't.

Sanjeev said...

> p.s. Poultry flavoured cat toothpaste isn't.

Did you ever see local Toronto comedian Derek Edwards, and his bit on strawberry flavoured flouride treatment?

# It tasted like strawberries ...
# marinated in a bucket of goat piss
# and skunk juice for a year

Sanjeev said...

(those weren't his original words, I know they've morphed in my mind over the years ... he mentioned elephant "stuff" and various assorted fragrant and disgusting fluids from fauna)

Sanjeev said...

Diana:
# I ordered Fuchs brushes (the medium, because
# the soft ones get REALLY soft),

have you ever dunked these in bleach?

This is one disinfection technique I've run across in the last couple of hours - I normally bleach down my shower curtain & bath area once a month.

With the toothbrush though, even if I did it I'd leave the brush under running hot water for 10 minutes to get all the remaining bleach out.

paleotwopointoh said...

No, I was hoping you had a list of the posts I have commented on because I would like to save my comments. Wordpress tracks comments within its system, making that kind of thing easy even if one comments on many blogs, but blogspot doesn't.

Oh well. If I ever get that mysterious free time stuff I'll try to figure out where all I posted here manually.

Javeux said...

Re: Biotene. I tried a bottle of it before and had nice results. It's pricey to get hold of in the UK though :-(

Sanjeev said...

google this

site:carbsanity.blogspot.com paleotwopointoh

it will give too many hits but you can start weeding from there

Simon Carter said...

"Obviously, the best exercise is the exercise you can do, on a consistent basis, without injury." - totally agree.
I never thought that "Paleo" ever promoted marathon running, in fact I know that DeVany, Wolfe and Sisson are adamantly against it. DeVany has kept a running tab for years of people dying during marathons. Hard sprint intervals are extremely taxing even for conditioned athletes. We used to call them wind sprints in my rugby playing days. I think an obese person doing them as part of a program to lose weight has a good probability of injuring themselves.

Sanjeev said...

or just click for that search

paleotwopointoh said...

wow, thanks!

Voriukas said...

Paleo community is full of very opinionated people. I read most of the "arguments and responses" posts and I tend to agree or disagree with them but it's... well, I think some people take it too personally and as an offence rather than a constructional criticism that it really is.
Anyway, what I wanted to comment on was your advice for Stacey (from PaleoParents). Of course, seeing a doctor and having all the possible tests is a great idea. I am also guessing she's done at least some of them. You know what forces people into paleohacks and robbwolf and other webpages with "magical information and advices"? Terrible doctors. Not being medically educated ourselves we try to find some authority to consult us on our problems. I am sure Stacey feels just like that. And when our medical geniuses fail, we turn to the almighty Dr. Internet.
Of course, living in the States it's different for you, for Stacey, for the rest of paleo community. I live in Lithuania, where people still has no idea that nutrition is directly connected with our health. Including the doctors of medicine. Couple years ago I had a health problem: 20-30 minutes after eating I suddenly felt weak, shaky, there was a brain fog. And I needed to eat every couple hours or I would get the same symptoms as well. I got scared it was diabetes. Did the test - no. Thyroid problems. Did the tests - no. PCOS - no. It was scary because I didn't know what it was. Then I did the blood test with glucose ingestion and the test showed reactive hypoglycemia. I took all the tests results to my doctor expecting some advice how to deal with it. Well, she took the results, looked at them for a minute and gave me a prescription for Xanax, an anti-anxiety drug (though she didn't explained what exactly it was and I couldn't understand her handwriting). She told me I was afraid to eat and I felt stressed and that was why I felt weak after eating and those pills would help me. This couldn't be further from the truth because I love food, I love cooking and eating and I have no problem with food whatsoever. You see, if I was clueless (and not reading the almighty internet) I would be taking anti-anxiety meds at the moment instead of dealing with my messed up hormones (insulin resistance). So, no, seeing the doctor and doing all the tests aren't always an option when the doctors are morons. (Just in case, you think I should have seen other doctors, I should say I've been to two other ones. Endocrinologist including. They found nothing... but they didn't actually try to find what was wrong, they just wanted to dismiss me and get the pay). So you see, that is the reason I read all the blogs and that's why I'd rather believe I am metabolically broken (but still fixable) than take all the possible meds for the illnesses I don't have.
Ahem, pardon for the long comment :)

Gabriella Kadar said...

It's pricey everywhere except the USA.

Charles Grashow said...

http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2013/02/orthorexia-in-paleoprimal-community.html?spref=tw

"Are folks in the paleo/primal community more at risk for orthorexia? Well, obviously. Here we have a pre-selected population of folks who tend to be on the obsessive side who care a great deal about food, and many of them have had great health benefits from some dietary changes. It's very tempting to look to solve the next health problem with a tweak in diet or supplements. Unfortunately, one could tweak forever, with additional restrictions in diet leading to smaller and smaller benefits, no benefits at all, or even health problems derived from the diet. One can easily eat too little and intermittent fast too much on a strict paleo/primal diet, causing hormonal problems as the starvation response kicks in. One can also develop nutritional deficiencies from a very restricted diet. And some folks will delay going to the doctor for a serious medical problem, trying to find a solution by surfing the internet and eating zero carb (or only raw food, or cutting out every last molecule of fructose, or eating only this or that…)."


http://www.wildnessandwonder.com/2012/05/the-post-that-was-going-to-be-called-fuck-paleo-but-isnt/

Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, just think of what chlorine does to hair (swimming pool) or to your skin if you expose it to bleach. It will dissolve a natural bristle brush.

I don't think people should go bonkers with toothbrushes. Just run them under the tap, use your thumb or whichever digit to loosen any guck, then put them brush side up in a container with some paper towel in the bottom so they dry out.

OMG, this reminds me: one of my late 20s patients (been a patient since age 6) told me he was at a computer gaming geek friend's party recently. At about who knows what a.m. when everyone was done in from eating junkfood and doing whatever gamers do, he got out his toothbrush. The other guys were 'like' "why are you brushing your teeth now?" (I gotta blush here.) He said "my dentist told me 'If you only brush your teeth once a day then you better f...g brush them for four minutes before you go to sleep'. All the other guys got out their toothbrushes." We had a great laugh but do my patients have to quote the salty words too? Arghhh.

Gabriella Kadar said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gabriella Kadar said...

Sanjeev, LOL. I don't use topical fluoride gel in my practice. It's too toxic.

Back in the 1960s, studies of the swallowing reflex in children up to age 11 indicated that they would ingest toothpaste. Nothing was done about this until the 1990s when both no fluoride and reduced fluoride toothpastes began to be marketed by the big manufacturers. Colgate also made a corporate move to reduce the financial impact by class action suits.

Fluorosis is not only white spot lesions of enamel but a darkening of the dentin. Now the toothpaste companies are marketing bleaching kits. How cynical is that?

Last week one of the cities in southwestern Ontario decided to stop fluoridating municipal water because a few citizens claimed that taking a shower would cause them all sorts of grief. (maybe it's the water temperature? Maybe it's the chlorine? The mayor sounded like a totally illogical looptape.) It doesn't matter anyway. Kid's faces are generally so underdeveloped, baby teeth are jammed up against one another, kids are being fed cariogenic snacks all day long, that the rate of dental decay in young kids is epidemic. Water fluoridation has little or no impact on this situation.

I'd love to know if any of the complainants drink green tea, one of the 'miracle' drinks. It only has at least 45ppm fluoride as opposed to maybe 0.6 ppm in fluoridated municipal water. Back in the 1990s TV advertising of Lipton's iced tea drinks was banned from prime time children's viewing because of the high fluoride content.

Did you see the video of the IKEA monkey and its owner brushing their teeth? If that monkey was being made to use fluoridated toothpaste, then aleady that is abuse.



Gabriella Kadar said...

A reread indicates that the bleach idea came from Sanjeev. Sorry about that, Diana.

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/02/04/130204fa_fact_specter?currentPage=all

THE OPERATOR - Is the most trusted doctor in America doing more harm than good?

"We were sitting in his office at New York-Presbyterian, shortly after the operation had concluded. Covers of various publications that have featured Oz were mounted on the walls, along with his diplomas from Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania. He produced a large bag of blueberries and offered me some. He is rarely without blueberries, almonds, or easy access to the “green drinks,” made mostly from cucumber, spinach, apples, and herbs, that he often mentions on his show. Oz doesn’t follow any of the miracle cures or fad diets that he trots out so regularly for his audience. He eats like a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer and exercises daily. He never takes an elevator when he can use the stairs; the one time I saw him do so, he told me he was embarrassed by his indolence, a word nobody else could possibly associate with him."

Diana said...

@Gabriella,

Good thing I read to the bottom of the comment line - I got so confused! Anyway - Sanjeev - no I don't bleach my teethbrushes.

Back to Gabriella - oral hygiene may become my latest hobby!

@Princess Mir: I'm with you on the sugar being addictive thing. I know that the blogmistress thinks sugar addiction is ridiculous but it is to me - at least in certain combinations with fat. True, I don't go to the box of sugar and empty it down my gullet, but no dessert cart is safe around me, once I start. So I don't start.

Someone once said that a meal is an excuse to get to dessert. I wish I had made that up.

Everybody has their "thing." I can drink a glass of beer, or wine, and be happy with that. Some people aren't - they can't stop with one drink. I feel for them. Protein is self-limiting - I can only eat so much chicken, fish, or meat, and it isn't a lot. Nor have I ever eaten more than two pieces of fruit at a time.

But pastries, cookies, candies, etc. Sigh. I could eat myself sick on them. Maybe we have to invent another word for it. Something more than "I really like this stuff" and less than "addiction."

Diana said...

Ever see the movie THE WIZARD OF OZ. What was behind that curtain? A fake.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Um, right: Paleolithic hunters for sure had a blender to make green smoothies. Year round blueberry consumption: meh. When's he going to start picking spring nettles and dandelion greens? Or chewing on the contents of wild rosehips? Or chomping on chenopodium shoots? Now then we're talking potentially real paleo hunter gatherer.

And is that a codpiece in the surgical scrubs or is he just happy to be on teevee?

littleums said...

I love people that are willing to be voices of reason within communities. It was only after I stopped identifying as a vegan that I started seeing vegan voices that speak up for science and skepticism, and those voices - though a minority - make me so happy.

Speaking of Stefani, her most recent appearance on Paleo View was TERRIBLE. I was wondering the whole time if having her credentials questioned made her less sure of herself, but I am not completely sure what was going on. She didn't have good answers for any of the questions, and was just all over the place.

Diana said...

@Evelyn and Simon,

A Canadian writer named Timothy Caulfield has written a book purporting to debunk fitness and health myths, named THE CURE FOR EVERYTHING. It's meant for the popular audience, but is based on "science" and has references to peer-reviewed literature.

I think it's an awful book. Here is why.

He takes on mostly low-hanging fruit, b#tsh#t ladies who advocate extreme internal cleansing systems. I don't have to be told this is junk.

The real harm is that he advocates an extreme exercise program, based on interval training (and resistance). Nothing wrong with either - but the program he outlines is EXTREME.

At first he sounds quite reasonable. He ridicules the "search for visible abs" - which makes him sound like a sensible guy. Then what does he do? Goes on a search for visible abs, by reducing his body-fat %-age from 18% to 10%, and brags about his results!

Along the way he says good things about a Hollywood trainer who is a practitioner of truly brutal and punitive exercise regimes. (Not Jillian Michaels.) She works is azz, and he is full of admiration for her. And why the hell go to Hollywood anyway? He snarks about it, but he goes there. The trainer admits that Hollywood women starve and he's critical of that....but is he really? It was more than a mixed message, he was truly saying one thing and doing another, which is a form of fraudulence, isn't it?

He trashes the government recommendations for half an hour of exercise a day, saying it was a cop-out.

It's this combination of reasonableness, while advocating an extreme exercise program, that I find detestable. In a way, that is worse than total insanity, because the latter I can see through, whereas the former I fall for.

I'm no Art DeVany, but I'm not in bad shape. I tried his program for a week (moderating it), it exhausted me, and I just went back to my usual long walk in the park, which is good enough, thank you. But I shudder to think what someone else would do to their body, particularly a middle-aged guy, 25 pounds overweight, who doesn't "listen to their body." Eventually they will be running straight to the orthopedist's office -- or to the cardiologist's.

Evelyn - the point of this rambling comment is that lack of reasonableness about what most normal working people can do about keeping fit isn't limited to the Paleo world. Caulfield isn't a Paleo cultist. One of the reasons for the success of Paleo is the total anarchy with respect to good information, not to mention the sheer difficulty of working fitness into one's daily routine in the modern world.

Sigh.

Diana said...

Gabriella, I sometimes wonder whether there is a psychological difference between people who emigrate to Canada, and people who emigrate to the US. It strikes me that we get the personality types who gravitate more towards unabashed, utter hucksterism. You get the quiet types. Tell me I'm wrong. I want to be wrong.

Diana said...

@Simon, I was interested to see what Sisson said about marathoning. You're right, he advocates caution.

This is slightly OT (sorry Evelyn, even though you don't mind threads going OT, I feel I should apologize), he says here, "To be an effective marathoner – or even to just finish one – you have to be an effective fat burner. It is the beta-oxidation of fat, both dietary and stored body fat, that provides much of the aerobic energy you will need to maintain reasonable pace for 26.2 miles."

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-train-for-a-marathon/

PBS followed a bunch of regular folks training for a marathon, and found that it was a lousy way to lose weight.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/marathon-challenge.html

Read it, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Do you really have to be an "effective fat burner" to run a marathon? Who knows? For all I know, based on the PBS show, maybe marathoners are ineffective fat burners. I do not know. That's why I come to the Asylum, to read someone who can separate fact from fiction, or rather, fictionalized accounts of fact.

But it is statements like that which make me suspicious of Sisson's information. He's well-meaning, but biased and insufficiently rigorous.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I love long comments like this! Welcome!

I feel your pain with your doctors, but did you show the Endo your other test results? This doesn't add up to me. I know many docs are horribly predisposed to prescribing a pill, but I have just not had this experience when pushing the issue. I have stories to tell there, mostly from my husband, but you have to be persistent. I mean you showed your doctor that you were experiencing reactive hypoglycemia and she ignored that? Or is the RH the kind that Jimmy Moore experienced (BG going down a few points after a huge LC meal)? You say the endo didn't do the tests, but you say you had the test results. Can you see why reading stories such as yours frustrates me? If your doctor is poor, then you run to Robb Wolf???? This is what is so very wrong here.

Do you still have reactive hypoglycemia? Did you have your insulin levels (and perhaps c-peptide = insulin secretion) assessed along with the OGTT? That should be done. Because even someone like Robb should not be giving out advice unless they know the cause of your situation.

Re: Stacy, from her post it seemed apparent that she hasn't had the tests done. It could be SIBO or Candida -- candida overgrowth is total woo woo. I think he posted the comment here, but it could be elsewhere, but Kurt Harris (a doctor) once noted that if a person has real candida overgrowth they have bigger problems. The population most affected by that is later stage AIDS sufferers. The problem there is keeping appetite up. And if you have intestinal candida overgrowth you know it. Stacy said she *thinks* it's insulin resistance from years of obesity. Well, she should know if she's IR or not, so I don't think it's a stretch to believe she has not had the tests. That notion of being IR due to past obesity is highly flawed. It's from the gurus in this community that this mistaken notion is propagated. I do not know if she exercised previously or did any resistance training, but sure, that's going to help -- good on her and keep it up, but you are not broken girl! Jimmy Moore is NOT broken ... well, let me revise that ... he's doing his best TO break himself as he has oxalate crystals in his urine which is a known side effect of extreme keto diets (it is fairly common for kids on keto diets for epilepsy to develop kidney stones, something extremely rare in that age group, and most therapeutic keto diets are administered with a supplement to help prevent gall stones).

Please, please, please do not replace a trained doctor who sees you and can evaluate you based on what is actually going on with an internet guru who is getting half of their knowledge from pullitfrommyass.com. Because that's where most of them are getting it from.

eulerandothers said...

'He eats like a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer'
When I google 'Oz paleo' the results suggest Oz does not endorse the Paleo diet.

Diana said...

@Evelyn, NOT O/T or Jimmy bashing - he recently had someone one who claims to have beaten breast cancer with a keto diet. Isn't this abysmal?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Mark Sisson is full of shit. This guy was an elite endurance athlete when he was eating carbs. Remember that, everyone. Rather than "to be an effective marathoner – or even to just finish one – you have to be an effective fat burner" it is that to be a fat burner you need to engage in fat burning activities, including fasting. Exercise mobilizes fat and long/slow-to-moderate (and let's face it, elite marathoners are fast!) activity favors burning fat for fuel. So what?! This is the biggest bunch of crap and this nonsense that people who eat carbs only have 2000 calories of energy to burn while these fat burning beasts have 40,000 is nonsense. We all burn fat. We all do it effectively unless we have a mitochondrial defect (rare). Trained endurance athletes have increased fat stored in their muscle cells for exactly this purpose apparently.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

You read my mind. I'm working on a post about that right now!

Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, the most flagrant example is the Dr. Phil show. In Canada we have government healthcare for mental health problems. There isn't a huge demographic of desperate people with mental health issues vying for a chance to appear on TeeVee just so maybe they can get the help they need in exchange for the violation of their privacy. And the families with incest problems~! Ayy!

As to Dr. Oz, based on what I just read in the New Yorker, we don't have thousands of people who will line up to have their medical issues addressed through charity for which they will appear tearfully on television.

It reminds me of the Saudi Arabian king where poor peasants line up, kneel and beg so they can get funding for whatever problem they've got. Dr. Oz, born in Turkey, is the King Saud of Medical America.

Do you think he feels the power? The Caliphate of Oz!

All of this is not to say there aren't people with mental health or physical health problems who are either untreated or undertreated.

Laura Semmens said...

I just unsubscribed from TPV, mostly to escape Stacy's constant whining, but also to get away from these kind of "authorities." And P.S. to Stacy...you are STILL obese.

Simon Carter said...

DeVany, Sisson and Wolfe has all been very high level competitive athletes in their youth. They have great genetics, great motivation to stay in shape, and a lot of experience in how they personally should exercise and eat to maintain their physiques. It annoys me when they declare how "easy it is". Sisson is 59 years of age and has defined abs, great musculature and very low body fat. He is obviously an outlier. At 54 years of age I would love to look as good as him, but it not going to happen. I don't have the motivation (I am not being photographed with my shirt off to support my multi million dollar supplement business), I don't have the time (got a real job) and frankly I believe that my body would break down if I even attempted to get that "look".

Voriukas said...

Thank you for the reply :) Let me be clear: I don't think internet is better than a specialist. Treating an illness ourselves is not a good option. I have nothing against doctors. And I am not pro or against a low carb diet but I love my vegetables too much to give up them.
What I meant was that sometimes we don't have other options. My story went as this: one day I felt weak after eating a piece of chocolate. I couldn't even get up, my heart was fluttering and I was shaking. I got scared that I got diabetes. Of course, I should have gone straight to my GP. But there is 1-2 months waiting line to get there. And I knew she would only order me to get some blood tests (that would be a week or two to get the tests) and then she would send me to a specialist: endocrinologist or some other type of doctor depending on what she would think it was. So I skipped that and I just went and did all the tests myself. I paid for the tests myself too. The paid tests are done in two days. No waiting lines either (for the tests the doctor orders to do we also have to pay, only a bit less). There were no signs of diabetes. I also did thyroid tests (due to the family history). Not that one either. I registered to see a paid specialist: an endocrinologist (I had to pay in order not to stand in line of two months). I explained the situation about eating-weakness connection there was. I told her that I also had some symptoms of PCOS (period irregularities, difficult to lose weight, hirsutism). Well, actually I just told her things and she concluded it might be PCOS. So I went to a gynecologist to get the endoscopy (I think that's the right word) and get check if there was any cysts. There weren't. The endocrinologist told me it was not PCOS. "Maybe it's stress related", she said. "I can't help you." I was lost and not sure what to do. A week or so later I complained to my Dad about my problem. In his club there is a head of the only hospital in town so I got an appointment with the endocrinologist there. He gave me a blood glucose monitor and told me to check my glucose levels in the morning and in the afternoon. Of course, my glucose levels were fine. He concluded that I was healthy and that he couldn't help me. Once again, I was healthy on paper yet sick in reality. I read somewhere that hypoglycemia sometimes is a symptom of a pituitary tumor. I had no idea how to check that (that sounds pathetic but I couldn't handle the rejection from even two doctors so I decided to find what is wrong with me myself), but I thought I should rule out the reactive hypoglycemia first. And so I went to a clinic and had the blood glucose measured on an empty stomach and then three hours after ingesting glucose. The glucose levels were lower after those three hours (I am sure after one hour it would have been even lower than that). I had no idea what the test meant. So I went to my GP (yes, one month of waiting did apply). I brought all the tests, I told her about the other two doctors, I showed her the results. I expected her to refer me to see a specialist. Somewhere. I don't have that knowledge, I don't know what else should I have done. The GP listened to me, briefly looked at the tests and gave me the prescription. After buying the pills I realized it was Xanax. My 93 y.o. grandma was taking Xanax. I was 24 y. o. I didn't need it. So a week later I went to GP and told her I wasn't going to take Xanax. Even more I didn't want that on my record. I am lawyer with the hopes of being a judge in the near future and couldn't have anxiety meds on my record. The GP should have consulted me before prescribing me those pills. I told her it was not the stress, not the fear of eating, it was something else. She got a bit defensive, but agreed I didn't need to take Xanax. Instead I got Herbastress (a herbal pill for reducing stress).

Voriukas said...

She told me to come see her after a month. Now that first day (of my odyssey) that I had a terrible reaction to chocolate and thought it was diabetes, I was scared. And I knew the only way to heal the "diabetes" - to change my diet. I cut all the grains, and all the sugar from my diet (and I also added an hour of cardio and 30 mins of strenght training every day). All those meetings with doctors, tests etc. took several months. I was still eating... well, let's say a primal diet, and RH still was there. I think after four months of eating that way I realized I was better. I could go without eating for 6-7 hours, I didn't feel weak, I just felt better. And so I didn't go back to my GP.
I got rejected by two doctors. My general practitioner concluded it was all in my head. Now how could I go anywhere else and try to convince the new doctor I was not crazy? I am sure maybe in Lithuania there are some great doctors who are up to speed with all the newest information and maybe even willing to help their patients. I don't know them. I don't know where I should go. Or even if I should go at all, because they might just say it is all in my head. Because saying otherwise would require to put in some work and who wants that. The other thing is that obesity levels until the recent years were comparably low in Lithuania. We don't have a lot of metabolic illnesses so doctors just don't have that much experience. Alright, and now my point: I don't have a lot of time and money (and patience) to go from one specialist to another one searching for someone who would finally believe me. It's tiring. It's expensive. I have a life, after all. And if I know what works for me and it isn't Xanax or Herbastress or some other pills, then why I can't do it? I feel as if I was Pythagoras trying to convince everyone the earth was round and everyone just thinks I am nuts.
I don't say Robb Wolf or Jimmy Moore can give medical advice and their posts can substitute seeing a professional doctor. I say that sometimes a professional is not available. And you are left only with a help from the internet.
Candida overgrowth is a possibility too. I still somehow think during those four months of primal eating I restored my insulin sensitivity rather than fixed the candida overgrowth problem. But it's just my gut telling me so (the weird pun is indeed intended :D). I do agree with you, obesity cannot cause irreparable IR, people cannot be metabolically broken for good. It's fixable. But can people after a period of unlimited not-so-healthy eating get insulin resistance? I think they can. And I think Stacey might be IR. Or it might be SIBO. Candida. It might. Does the treatment for IR and for SIBO/Candida differ? The diet is quite similar. And Stacey did the adjustments to her diet she felt she needed. (though I have to say, autoimmune illnesses and allergies to various foods seem a lot like a symptom of candida overgrowth but what do I know).
Once again, sorry about the word waterfalls. And you're probably right about things you write. My medical knowledge is limited to couple books, several medical publications I've read and an unlimited access to the internet so I should rather talk about Lithuanian legal system than how someone should treat their illnesses :D
Oh, but I do really appreciate your answers and suggestions. Thank you :)

Diana said...

"Mark Sisson is full of shit."

That's what I thought.

Diana said...

"They have great genetics,"

DeVany, yes, but let's hold off on the other two. We don't know how long they'll live.

My mother's oldest sister lived to 104 and was mentally clear till the end. Now THAT'S great genetics.

She didn't have visible abs though. Does that detract?

David Gillespies Big Fat Lies said...

>Jimmy having her as a guest host when she's (a) not a low carber,<

It is the same with David Gillespie of Sweet Poison fame - a recent interview had him telling everyone he eats toast for breakfast most mornings and a sandwich for lunch - low carb much? His lucrative side business (recipe books and a recipe based website with an annual membership) is replacing fructose/sucrose in many cases with glucose or dextrose!

Woodey said...

"Mark Sisson is full of shit"

Now you're talking! My admiration of you just went up tenfold.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

LOL. I'm just so sick and tired of this fat burning nuttyK hoax.

Jane said...

Voriukas
May I make a suggestion? There is a book called 'Low Blood Sugar (Hypoglycemia): The 20th Century Epidemic?'. It's quite old, published in 1981, and some of it is outdated, but I've never come across a better account of hypoglycemia (I'm a scientist, and I've been interested in this topic for many years). If you can get hold of a copy, it will tell you what you need to know.

rob grom said...

Gabriella, I sometimes wonder whether there is a psychological difference between people who emigrate to Canada, and people who emigrate to the US. It strikes me that we get the personality types who gravitate more towards unabashed, utter hucksterism. You get the quiet types. Tell me I'm wrong. I want to be wrong. optometrist victoria bc

Galina L. said...

Rob,
Did you ever try to immigrate anywhere? It is not like choosing where to go for your vocations. Canada has the open immigration policy. Basically anyone can walk to a Canadian embassy anywhere and request a form to fill in order to apply to immigrate to Canada (they don't accept everyone, of course). Not so with US. You have to have some sponsors or relatives or already work in US in order to legally live and work in US as an immigrant. Our family immigrated first to Canada, then second time to US. I liked Canada more, but in US my husband has a better job situation.

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