If only they'd listened ...
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| Yes ... this is a screenshot Jimmy Moore uploaded to his image host and tried to pass off as a comment directed at him on one of his venues. Click on image to enlarge |
You see, a year or so ago, Jimmy Moore was in full swing stirring the pot in paleo to deflect as much as he could from his unwarranted MARKETING and MONEYMAKING move into the paleosphere. He "went paleo" following AHS11 and started attaching that label to everything paleo. When some in the community protested, he pointed fingers at me. News flash, I have never been "paleo", though I do eat a pretty paleo friendly diet, insomuch as I understand the diet to mean, the large percentage of the time.
Kurt's suggestions were ahead of their time. Perhaps in foreboding manner, that Jimmy featured them amongst some nasty messages he may have indeed received, it is even more sobering to reflect on them. The way to stop this is simply not to give him the clout. Nobody with Jimmy's resume -- failing at the weight loss game at the time, no relevant background of any sort to speak of in health, nutrition and/or fitness, etc. -- survives very long without the help of others. But instead, help they did. They ran ads on his sites, sponsored his podcasts and brought their own followings fledgling or considerable, along for the ride as Jimmy launched yet another podcast endeavor Ask the Low Carb Experts. Before anyone thinks I'm condemning one and all with a broad brush, let me say this: I certainly understand the side of the story where folks are trying to further their own movement and message and will seek out a broad range of conduits in which to do so ... especially Jimmy's high profile venue. And each little help is nothing in and of itself, but together, it has gotten us to today, the Jimmy Moore NK juggernaut and an even greater chance for him to drag the good reputations of many others down with him if he goes. Saving someone else's a$$ in the hopes of saving your own is usually not a wise move in the long run ...
But over the past year we've seen what I'd describe as the rise of mutually supporting second-string LC/paleo gurus. They've started blogs and podcasts, gathered a small following themselves by getting exposure on the blog/podcast of a "big player" and/or landing that audience grab of a guest. I'm not going to name names (or perhaps I can be goaded), but this second string has little if even anything in the way of real credentials, experience or background in the arena. Yes, every once in a while a person that fits such a description can make a big impact ... in 2011 there was even a blog that went by a title or had a blog post hoping to be the next Jimmy Moore. Jimmy is, after all, someone who seems to have benefited from a perfect storm of a vacuum left by Atkins' death, the wane of the early turn of the century Atkins craze, and a "wow-factor" weight loss -- fast and considerable thus a transformation. Don't get me wrong. I consider Jimmy a marketing genius -- you'd have to be to grow a business in the weight loss/diet/health realm while never being truly fit, and no doubt he's worked quite hard to build his business. To me, however, the effort he puts in is not a blanket excuse to be supported in that endeavor further. Indeed for quite some time, Jimmy has been somewhat of a running joke behind the scenes, and was essentially being used by those seeking to further their LC/paleo career through exposure. But the big names have been lending him credibility for quite some time now and created this mess the community finds itself in today.
Kurt used the term boycott. I'm not a big fan of the term per se, but of the sentiment, yes. I don't think that folks necessarily need to come out and decry Jimmy's recent behavior on their blogs, FB pages, Twitter and whatnot. But I do hold them accountable for helping him in his dishonest damage control efforts. However I do think those who have pre-existing commitments to appear in Jimmy's venues should consider the wisdom of doing so. Not because of what I'll think, but because of how this will be perceived both within and from the outside of the greater community. What we know from history is that Jimmy will only truly acknowledge and change when he is held to account. And the only way to do that with Jimmy, is to cut off his money stream and/or not provide him platforms on which to rehabilitate/build his brand/image. That may sound harsh, but the alternative is more cruel to everyone all around in the end.
If Jimmy is truly the honorable person he claims, he'll land on his feet. He's talented and who knows, maybe he gets down to a lower weight, and maintains it sanely this time, and opens a nationwide NKKK (sorry couldn't help myself) weight loss chain like Jenny Craig. Hopefully he's saved a bit to get him through some rough times while he reinvents. Or perhaps he puts his talents to work behind the scenes for someone. Who knows. But pity, to keep his wife from crying, is not a reason to perpetuate his current course uncorrected. And it will continue uncorrected unless he is forced to correct. Most people don't even get one shot at redemption. Jimmy did and flourished after nearly destroying himself with the Kimkins scandal. HE, and only HE, has gotten himself into another steaming hot mess, and his efforts at blaming others, accusing them of using gestapo tactics while claiming to have been ignorant of the term neo-Nazi ... that ain't going to cut it. I do not think he deserves a second shot at redemption here. But it is not my call to make. I'm just putting the information out there so that each and every one of you can decide for yourself.
Lastly, I need to address Christine Moore, who has taken up in her husband's defense with claims that people like myself are lying about her husband out of hate. First, I don't hate Jimmy. I do have a profound dislike for the man based on how he treated me throughout my personal interactions with him vis a vis my podcast and beyond. From breaking email confidentiality right off the bat and sharing my concerns over why I preferred to remain anonymous with Gary Taubes (from which the stalker crap evolved), to misrepresenting my views and putting words in my mouth I did not use, to smearing me personally alongside Gary in the "response" podcast, instead of having Gary address the serious issues with the references I raised in the second part of my interview (silly me, I thought the whole hour was supposed to be spent on that). And pretty much everything from thereon -- including how his speaking up from his cabin five doors down from Kruse, or at the very least setting the record straight once the LC Cruise of 2012 docked, could have saved much unnecessary angst for several human beings including me, whom he knew had nothing to do with the events that unfolded. But he stayed silent. Still, I don't hate him. That is a strong word and not appropriate in this context no matter how many try to put it in my mouth. At this point I pity him because I choose to believe there's a good side that is being overshadowed by his lust for notoriety and money (it matters not that he hasn't become "rich", he is making, by his last account, at least twice what he was bringing in in his ho-hum career in customer service while traveling the country and now the world). But Christine, I have NEVER lied about your husband, I have exposed his own lies. You need to step back and see that, or risk forever making a fool of yourself defending the indefensible.
But over the past year we've seen what I'd describe as the rise of mutually supporting second-string LC/paleo gurus. They've started blogs and podcasts, gathered a small following themselves by getting exposure on the blog/podcast of a "big player" and/or landing that audience grab of a guest. I'm not going to name names (or perhaps I can be goaded), but this second string has little if even anything in the way of real credentials, experience or background in the arena. Yes, every once in a while a person that fits such a description can make a big impact ... in 2011 there was even a blog that went by a title or had a blog post hoping to be the next Jimmy Moore. Jimmy is, after all, someone who seems to have benefited from a perfect storm of a vacuum left by Atkins' death, the wane of the early turn of the century Atkins craze, and a "wow-factor" weight loss -- fast and considerable thus a transformation. Don't get me wrong. I consider Jimmy a marketing genius -- you'd have to be to grow a business in the weight loss/diet/health realm while never being truly fit, and no doubt he's worked quite hard to build his business. To me, however, the effort he puts in is not a blanket excuse to be supported in that endeavor further. Indeed for quite some time, Jimmy has been somewhat of a running joke behind the scenes, and was essentially being used by those seeking to further their LC/paleo career through exposure. But the big names have been lending him credibility for quite some time now and created this mess the community finds itself in today.
Kurt used the term boycott. I'm not a big fan of the term per se, but of the sentiment, yes. I don't think that folks necessarily need to come out and decry Jimmy's recent behavior on their blogs, FB pages, Twitter and whatnot. But I do hold them accountable for helping him in his dishonest damage control efforts. However I do think those who have pre-existing commitments to appear in Jimmy's venues should consider the wisdom of doing so. Not because of what I'll think, but because of how this will be perceived both within and from the outside of the greater community. What we know from history is that Jimmy will only truly acknowledge and change when he is held to account. And the only way to do that with Jimmy, is to cut off his money stream and/or not provide him platforms on which to rehabilitate/build his brand/image. That may sound harsh, but the alternative is more cruel to everyone all around in the end.
If Jimmy is truly the honorable person he claims, he'll land on his feet. He's talented and who knows, maybe he gets down to a lower weight, and maintains it sanely this time, and opens a nationwide NKKK (sorry couldn't help myself) weight loss chain like Jenny Craig. Hopefully he's saved a bit to get him through some rough times while he reinvents. Or perhaps he puts his talents to work behind the scenes for someone. Who knows. But pity, to keep his wife from crying, is not a reason to perpetuate his current course uncorrected. And it will continue uncorrected unless he is forced to correct. Most people don't even get one shot at redemption. Jimmy did and flourished after nearly destroying himself with the Kimkins scandal. HE, and only HE, has gotten himself into another steaming hot mess, and his efforts at blaming others, accusing them of using gestapo tactics while claiming to have been ignorant of the term neo-Nazi ... that ain't going to cut it. I do not think he deserves a second shot at redemption here. But it is not my call to make. I'm just putting the information out there so that each and every one of you can decide for yourself.
Lastly, I need to address Christine Moore, who has taken up in her husband's defense with claims that people like myself are lying about her husband out of hate. First, I don't hate Jimmy. I do have a profound dislike for the man based on how he treated me throughout my personal interactions with him vis a vis my podcast and beyond. From breaking email confidentiality right off the bat and sharing my concerns over why I preferred to remain anonymous with Gary Taubes (from which the stalker crap evolved), to misrepresenting my views and putting words in my mouth I did not use, to smearing me personally alongside Gary in the "response" podcast, instead of having Gary address the serious issues with the references I raised in the second part of my interview (silly me, I thought the whole hour was supposed to be spent on that). And pretty much everything from thereon -- including how his speaking up from his cabin five doors down from Kruse, or at the very least setting the record straight once the LC Cruise of 2012 docked, could have saved much unnecessary angst for several human beings including me, whom he knew had nothing to do with the events that unfolded. But he stayed silent. Still, I don't hate him. That is a strong word and not appropriate in this context no matter how many try to put it in my mouth. At this point I pity him because I choose to believe there's a good side that is being overshadowed by his lust for notoriety and money (it matters not that he hasn't become "rich", he is making, by his last account, at least twice what he was bringing in in his ho-hum career in customer service while traveling the country and now the world). But Christine, I have NEVER lied about your husband, I have exposed his own lies. You need to step back and see that, or risk forever making a fool of yourself defending the indefensible.
Comments
Yes, and it was sandwiched between comments that really were directed towards him on his venues, nasty below-the-belt personal comments - which makes his deceitfulness all the galling. Because the casual reader wouldn't know this.
About Jimmy's personality - I think that those who know him from way back realize the two sides of Jimmy Moore. By accident I came across a comment put on the Vegsource.com site, by an old classmate of Jimmy. She is African-American. In light of the David Duke fiasco, a relevant fact. (I think she was the black classmate of whom I wrote on the main post with all the comments.)
She wrote that Jimmy is a "swell guy" but that Vegsource was right about his dieting craziness. She likes him as a person, but knows that he is peddling trash.
As you know, i'm new here - but do you address what does work for you in terms of diet anywhere on this site? I haven't found it, and this may not be the forum for it, but I'm still juggling my own macro-nutrient levels and so am curious what you've found - if not specifically for yourself than in general.
More ON topic, I'm really disappointed to find out how many of these grown men (and all the ones I've paid attention to so far are men) are such CRYBABIES! If they believe in the results of their research, speaking to that, at least 99% of the time, would serve them and their audience so much more than all this twaddle.
so the last paragraph was moving like a soap opera
you want their best, you only warned her and "told her so" :)
- Chistine?!
- Mom?!!
Does Christine get involved with Jimmy's business? I don't think she works anywhere so would have time to perhaps assist him.
Perhaps they'll listen now."
- Don MacLean
Hi Evelyn, Look up "Dottie's Weight Loss Zone". JM is no genius, he most likely copied this internet business model after his low fat starvation, which was probably Weight watchers.
I dont know what kind of traffic DWLZ gets,but I imagine anyone doing WW will stumble on it, I did.
Isn't JM's turn against protein the reason that Regina Wilshire dropped him? Think of it. She didn't drop him because he consorted with David Duke. She dropped him because he turned against her magic macronutrient.
Imagine a group of people whose object of worship is a macronutrient. (And consequently, whose devil is another macronutrient.)
Am I the only one who things this is strange - very strange??
What is known is that she doesn't bother to make meals for them. Jimmy Moore wrote that his big weight regain after his first big weight loss, on the low fat diet, began when Christine asked him to go and fetch her a hamburger from a fast food joint. Jimmy couldn't resist, and bought one for himself too. That was the end of his low fat diet weight loss according to him.
Also, remember his blaming his weight gain in general on carbs? And his listing his daily intake of loads of donuts and sodas? Obviously his wife wasn't in the habit of preparing meals.
Maybe Jimmy should get a job working with a chef for a weight loss coach like Jillian Michaels. Then he can eat the food he has to prepare anyway. And he has a job outside of his sedentary high-fat anti-carb obsessed site. It would probably relieve a lot of stress and also clear his mind of its day-after-day focus of trying to vindicate his crazy diets.
JM used to work for Denny's and seems to have some kind of lifetime discount with them; when he used to blog his menus, you could easily spot a Denny's meal just from the ingredients.
Evelyn happily ate at the Jimmy Moore trough when it suited her. It seems a bit churlish to suggest that other people in the whole "alternative nutrition" community do the same.
For sure Jimmy has some dubious contributors to his show, but if you are selective in your listening, it's a great way of accessing the whole spectrum of opinion. As a newly diagnosed T2D, I luckily found Bernstein (and later Taubes) by myself. But it was Jimmy Moore's show that introduced me to Volek, Phinney, Feinman, Sissons, Wolf, and through them to guys like Jaminet, Harris, and Guyenet.
The fact that Jimmy makes a buck or two out of it is almost completely irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
Christine cannot be bold defender of Jimmy's honor and shrinking wallflower at the same time.
I forgot that about Denny's. I noticed he used to list meals that definitely seemed to be restaurant fare repeatedly. Nobody eats a side salad with dried cranberries and sunflower seeds and whatnot every time they have a salad at home ......
What is your current weight? Are you fit?
Why is it that people who toil in academia often feel the need to attack those who go out and earn a living?
It is one thing to call someone out, but you have a fixation on this one person. Are you sure this is simply personal?
I am so glad you are bringing some attention to this stuff, by which I mean the whole incestuous paleo groupthink. Not that I believe they all think the same, but they are willing to pat each other on the back, and promote each others' websites, books etc just to keep themselves in the income stream. I watch Diane SanFillipo and Liz Wolfe, and Matt and Stacy Toth, among many others, cheerfully tout JM as if he has any credibility at all in the paleo world.
I also see many of the "paleo leaders" push another member's book on PCOS, though this woman has yet to solve her own PCOS. I find it hard to believe that any of this circle of friends sincerely believe their buddies all have the answers. And like you said, watching them all go on JM's show as if that was some golden ticket is disgusting.
In the vanished menu blogs, I watched as Jimmy started with his paleo links, starting with grassfed ground beef and raw milk. At the ZIOH thread, we used to laugh at the idiocy of drinking raw milk along with a Quest Bar. But it was soon evident that he was putting those links in just to get more page hits when people searched on those terms, though he really had nothing to do with Paleo.
I kinda wish Robb Wolf would get off the LC cruise, and am hoping that his recent recant of LC is a signal of this.
And as usual the strawman is run up the pole that I'm against people making profits. No. Honest ones aren't too much to ask for however.
Jimmy made dirty dollars on Kimkins. He promoted Dreamfields and pocketed untold dollars all the while owning a glucometer where he could have done an n=1 to check their claims. Did he? No, he gorged on butter laden free Dreamfields. Same for Julian Bakery and all the other former sponsors' products he "exposed" with his n=1 jokesperiments.
Buh bye.
That's only eating at someone's trough in a disordered thought pattern.
but how come being at Jimmy's podcast is so expensive?
That would be a novel idea.
From Taubes' NuSi website:
'We are demanding that the quality of science in nutrition and obesity research be improved now, today. But we need your help.
Our goal is to spend 90% of every dollar raised directly on the funding of the most rigorous scientific experiments science can produce. This means for every dollar you give to NuSI you are actually moving the needle of obesity and diabetes research. Your support will make the difference.'
If the other 10% is going to the pockets of Taubes, Attia, and various other advisors, that would be an awesome way to have people pay you to do what? NuSi doesn't do any research. Taubes is not a scientist. That would be NuSi president, Peter Attia, who actually worked on cancer studies (not recently, however, and not many).
How much can one 'public' person make online? Louis C.K., the comedian, had one performance available for downloading, for a fee. This was the result:
'On Dec. 10, C.K. offered his one-hour "Live at the Beacon Theater" show for streaming or download for $5, free of any digital rights management (DRM). Initial tallies resulted in a $200,000 profit, but 12 days later, that number has ballooned to seven figures.
C.K. posted a screen grab from his PayPal account online, which showed $1,006,996.17 in available funds.
"That's a lot of money. Really too much money. I've never had a million dollars all of a sudden," C.K. said in a note on his Web site. "And since we're all sharing this experience and since it's really your money, I wanted to let you know what I'm doing with it."
C.K. said he will split the funds into four pieces: $250,000 to pay production and Web-related costs; $250,000 for a "big fat bonus" to his staff; $280,000 to charities like The Fistula Foundation, The Pablove Foundation, charity:water, Kiva, and Green Chimneys; and $220,000 for himself.'
I look forward to the financial information that the NuSi people will post (right?), reporting how the money was spent, including their own pieces of the pie.
BTW, I love Louis C.K.'s comedy. I know what I'm getting when I buy an episode of his show on Amazon and I get to keep it!
First off, regarding the LC Cruise, Diane Sanfilippo was just added two days ago. I cannot summon the appropriate words for that at this point in time. Robb I can understand though I'm hoping he'll do what I consider the right thing and not let his name be used in vain to promote Jimmy's brand. I'm sure he feels a certain obligation having backed out of 2012 and basically committed to 2013 at that time. Given the thin line-up this year, he is MORE than "headlining". Diane gets NO pass from me. It is appalling she has signed on board. Just appalling.
Yes, I saw how she and Liz are promoting Ruper's PCOS Unlocked. Ruper epitomizes what is wrong with this community having abandoned academic pursuits to pursue "her work" in a realm for which not only does she have limited if any relevant training, she has no experience. In her most recent post she has revealed that it was sort of happenstance from eating more freely and gaining a bit more weight that her period has now returned after 3 years. Yet her PCOS Unlocked claims to offer the answers to every woman's PCOS that doctors and endocrinologists, and even experienced alternative/holistic/naturopaths have somehow missed. It is disgusting really. She has also billed herself as an eating disorder counselor. Now we learn going Nora Gedgaudas style paleo created an eating disorder. There is so much more it is mind boggling. .... Yet Diane and Liz and Abel and Jimmy promote her.
The upcoming LLVLC Show schedule, presented without comment ;)
1-7: Dr. Robert Lustig
1-8: Terry & Suz McDonald
1-9: Tim Olson
1-14: Zoe Harcombe
1-15: Dr. Brett Hill
1-16: Mark Sisson
1-21: Esther Blum
1-22: Nat Kringoudis
1-23: Aglaee Jacob
1-28: Dan French
1-29: Elaine Canton
1-30: Vinnie Tortorich & Anna Vocino
2-4: GUEST HOSTS Diane Sanfilippo & Liz Wolfe
2-6: LLVLC Show Classic - Dr. Allen Rader
2-11: GUEST HOST Dean Dwyer
2-13: LLVLC Show Classic - Per Wikholm/Dr. Annika Dahlqvist
2-18: GUEST HOST Stefani Ruper
2-20: LLVLC Show Classic - Dr. Dean Ornish
2-25: GUEST HOST Abel James
2-27: LLVLC Show Classic - Kat James
3-4: GUEST HOST Sean Croxton
3-6: LLVLC Show Classic - Doug Kaufmann
3-11: GUEST HOST Roger Dickerman & Dr. Colin Champ
3-13: LLVLC Show Classic - Dr. Jim LaValle
3-18: GUEST HOST Tom Naughton
3-20: LLVLC Show Classic - Dr. Keith Berkowitz
3-25: GUEST HOST Jonathan Bailor
3-27: LLVLC Show Classic - Dr. James Carlson
Look. Jimmy Moore, as Diana reminds, came here to ask me to do the podcast. He did it to generate ... da, da, daaaaah ... CONTROVERSY!!! He needed to because one more dull and boring Gary Taubes podcast for WWGF wasn't going to generate much traffic. So he had me on, misrepresented me in show notes, allowed all manner of ugly in his comments about the podcast, uncharacteristically added a disclaimer, taped and aired 2 hours with Gary that were ad hominem attacks rather than addressed the content of my criticisms, etc.
That's three hours of profitable podcasts I generated for him while he did his best to besmirch my character. Were I as fragile as his wife I'd have been bawling (though not balling) my eyes out.
Being more realistic that's still 100-200K per million donated. How can I get a piece of that action?! LOL
As do I. It is unfortunate a legitimate dietary intervention (not long term in most cases, more severe/long term in others) has been ultimately reduced to a caricature of itself by the likes of Jimmy Moore.
I know my "Welcome" has been down -- and will be until I migrate to WP as I have no desire to waste time reconstructing the page I lost in Blogger -- but even in my original about, I said something of the order of replacing bad science with bad science would ultimately be counter productive. I think my point is being proven/played out.
I have been critical of Robb, but not much because frankly I haven't traveled in his circles. But I can say this, I cannot imagine the man having a listener call in and tell him how he/she started at 300 lbs, lost 50 lbs and is stalled at 250 for two years. Asked the menu they eat a lot of very clean low carb foods. And then Robb tell them they either (a) need to accept the fate of their broken metabolism, (b) need to keep doing what they've been doing for the past two years, the plateau will pass eventually, or (c) you need to eat less protein and more fat. Oh ... and whatever you do, don't exercise more. I just can't imagine it. He, like his Part 2 points out, DOES work with real people and that may not translate into online venues and books. This is not to absolve him from dubious profit-making ventures, but it is to say that in him I find the sort of hard working person trying to help people we're told all of these yahoos are. I could be wrong, but time will tell.
Many of the comments were pretty bad. No "let's be respectful" and no Christine chiming in that people shouldn't be so critical of someone they don't know (snark!)
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/the-llvlc-show-episode-436-carbsane-explains-why-she-is-a-taunter-of-gary-taubes/9760
Shows zero comments. I'm confused, I do remember reading something that showed lots of (unflattering) comments about your podcast. Perhaps it was on a different post?
...
How is that even possible? 160lbs in 90-120 days. That's at least 4800 calories in excess every single day.
Maybe he's no genius in copying another business plan. He does seem to have a streak of evil genius to be able to get away with flagrant lies and behaviors folks would pick up on in an instant were some of them not blinded by desperation or perception (e.g. aw shucks good guy persona).
Will he survive this? Jim Bakker went on to start another church after his release from prison for his PTL bilking.
www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2013/01/34-dr-stephan-guyenet-obesity-and-the-metabolic-syndrome-how-do-they-develop-and-why-are-they-so-hard-to-reverse
Whoops.
As Toscanini said of Strauss, "To Strauss the composer, I take off my hat. To the man, I put it back on."
(Strauss was very "silent" about the Nazis. Like a lot of Italians, Toscanini started out supporting the fascists but became disillusioned quickly, and left Italy permanently at the eve of WWII.)
I guess it is difficult to come off the high horse.
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