las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Friday, March 15, 2013

Robb Wolf :-(


 Evelyn: go f*ck yourself    ~Robb Wolf



You kiss your wife and baby girl with that mouth?

Yes folks, this is the class, professionalism and appropriate behavior we've apparently come to expect   from a leading member of the IHC?  Below is a screenshot of the Twitter exchange after reading this post:  Evidence Based Medicine: Fraud, Double Standards And Ignorance




I shall address that post at some future date, but in it he again sought to attack readers for some lack of     reading comprehension on their part, as he's done a few times of late.  For example, in his interview with Anthony Colpo, Robb said:
R: Honestly, I think you helped refine folks’ aim when they decided to try to take my head off on this topic, thanks!
It’s funny, for years I’ve talked (via the podcast mainly) how low carb has incredible value for the metabolically broken, but is likely a disaster for the athletic crowd, particularly the very glycogen dependent activities like Crossfit or MMA. I never received ANY push back from that but recently I wrote what was intended to be a two-part series on “My thoughts on Low Carb and Paleo”. The vitriol I received from this was jaw dropping. Friends I have in the blogosphere forwarded emails to me from irate people who were calling me a sell-out and asking how I’d been duped! All I said in Part 1 was that there are and are not appropriate places for low carb. HOW that is selling out is beyond me. So, the two part series became three parts with Part 2 just being a curb-stomp on my part towards the people who either have terrible reading comprehension OR a religious like attachment to low carb as a panacea for all situations.
Gee, I wonder where anyone got that idea from??  Could it be that this is what HE said?  Low Carb And Paleo: My Thoughts Part 1


... Slowly I realized, both by experimentation and by really looking at the literature: CALORIES MATTERED MORE THAN CARBS FOR BODY-COMP.
I have to say this was a pretty big shake-up for me. I’d assumed one could eat as much fat as one desired and STILL get leaner. As I mentioned above, when I first started eating LC, or more specifically, cyclic low carb (CLC) I was leaner than ever in my life. I know based on blood work and fat deposition that I had insulin resistance while vegan, and CLC helped with this immensely, but it was my new-found energy and activity level that drove my leanness, not an inability to store fat in the absence of significant insulin. I think this is one of the most damaging messages that comes out of the LC camp to this day, I was duped by this, so I’m not going to do what a lot of other recovered LC writers do and make folks out to be idiots for still believing this…but, it is time to face facts. ...
As you can see from the C&P of my Google search on "reading comprehension", Mr.Wolf likes to throw that around quite a lot. Hence my query. While yours truly could have been more tactful, there is no justification for this man's behavior.

Evidence Based Medicine: Fraud, Double Standards and Ignorancerobbwolf.com/.../evidence-based-medicine-fraud-double-stand...3 hours ago – If you fall into this trap you clearly have poor reading comprehensionand your mama dresses you funny. What I AM, is skeptical of the skeptics, ...
Low carb has benefits, but is it a cure-all?robbwolf.com/2013/01/02/thoughts-carb-paleo-part-deux/Jan 2, 2013 – Because reading comprehension is lacking for some, I'll make this point again and ask the keyboard warriors “how exactly is it that I've been ...
Is low carb the best way to eat?robbwolf.com/2013/01/.../thoughts-carb-paleo-episode-3-hop...ShareJan 9, 2013 – but I'd be fooling myself, and ignoring the obvious lack of reading comprehension in part 1. Some people WILL read what I said and take that in ...

Oh wait!  There's a backstory?  LOL ... Trust me folks, there ain't no backstory here to justify this.  Put up or shut up Robb.


82 comments:

drjessedavis said...

"@robbwolf Just read your latest. WTF is it with you and accusing your readers of lacking reading comprehension all the time. It's assinine!" You are going go throw around a you-kiss-with-that-mouth? Comically hypocritical.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Really? Presuming this is not a hit and run ... Can you please explain to me the similarity between my tweet and being told directly to go eff myself?

Charles Grashow said...

http://paleodrama.tumblr.com/

https://twitter.com/2POODYTANG/status/312667194234396672

Beth@WeightMaven said...

I'm not sure which is more disturbing. That Robb tweeted that (and made sure all his followers saw it by prefacing with a dot), or that so many folks retweeted or favorited it.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yes, I noticed that "." later. For the un-Twitter-savvy, if you just put @carbsane, it is a personal tweet and doesn't go out to followers. Put something in front of that and it's like any other tweet you send out.



Lerner said...

Evie, I hope you don't feel that I'm criticizing you but my reflex is to think that using "WTF" and "assinine" to someone would pretty much seem deliberately confrontational and could invite an escalated response. Maybe it's a guy thing. But still, I wouldn't come back like that to a girl (unless it was Madonna). I'm not defending Robb, but I'm offering the perspective that to a lot of people, the two exchanges are not that different. Maybe it's a guy thing, kind of like a generic response - not at all like Nikoley.

Or maybe Robb will show up and prove me entirely wrong.

Travis Culp said...

I'm shocked to see something like that from such a noble personage as Robb "Fish Oil Calculator" Wolf.

Edward said...

Aggressive approach by you, aggressive response by Robb. Thus, not a big deal, but rather a healthy and an exceedingly pedestrian exchange.

Though, I don't see the significance of his "reading comprehension remarks" in terms of eliciting such alarm. He is frustrated with the misapprehension of what he has been saying and the anemus he has experienced as he's refined his approach. There isn't inconsistency when the application contexts are: athletic performance, health and longevity (here, metabolic derangement), and body composition. He refined his position on body composition well within the nuanced approach to it that he has always advocated. We would do well to remember that the three big operating nutritional goals: performance, health and longevity, and body composition have some overlap but at their most extremes, each demand protocols that often undercut the other "goals (desires)." Thusly, Robb often reiterated and continues to admonish people to clear up what they want; to wit, he asks, "what is your personal goal." Multiple goals most often will, except for a time in the novice phase, sabotage the other.

I am pretty sure the above addresses precisely the points of confusion people have expressed with the "low carb" approach in Robb's work.

I am sorry this has upset you. I don't think Robb's intent was to injure you. It was a primal swipe at an aggressive tweet.

Respectfully,

Fellow caveperson

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I understand that, but there's a CLEAR difference between using WTF (it is not taken literally and is more akin to asking what the "eff") and assinine in this tense, and telling someone point blank to eff off, in no uncertain terms. Robb already defended it. He is no better than Nikoley calling me and others a c***.

Lerner said...

Ha, Travis, you must have been around in the old days. Robb did prescribe 50-60 fish oil caps per day in the good ol' days to good ol' Andy and Robb did get testy when criticized for that :) Every time.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I guess I have no use for primitive males then. Clever though.

Telling someone point blank to eff off is different than cursing or even calling someone an expletive.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

PS I think you know me pretty well. I've never claimed to be the innocent etc. I was irked by this post on many levels. We had a back and forth over a quack he tweeted about last week or so. This is *all that* and not an overreaction on my part.

Cue the John Valby ;-)

Lerner said...

Okay, that info about '.' makes a difference. (I have [proudly] never sent a tweet, btw.)

Achtung Robb, be your better self and address the womanly point of view. They see it differently.

Now, before I go telling any confrontational bar stories, I will instead look up 'John Valby' :)

Edward said...

Do you think you may be taking this a bit too hard? I'm not excusing the aspersion. I try to consider that he gets a lot of flack, like other inter web celebs, and given his outreach when I interact with him he doesn't know me from Adam. His frame of mind after just formulating a response to his detractors could have framed his response-to your response-to his response to his detractors, giving rise to a suggestion of offensive anatomical impossibilities and quite possibly, heinous self-violence.
Maybe we all need a twitter break, including Robb.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I just saw your tweet. See my response to Lerner above. WTF is an acronym that is not even the same as using the f-word. Like just there,the f-word vs. saying fuck. Get it? You see here why I made the tweet, he has been blaming his readers for over a month now about the duped thing. They got it, he apparently doesn't remember using that phrase? That's all I can think. He's pounded and pounded away at people as if they can't read when I believe most can.

I won't get into all the issues in the post other than the reading comprehension quip. That is blog post worthy.

Lerner said...

Edward, I disagree with you very much that it's healthy. It is pedestrian, though.

What happens so often in general is that instead of saying, "I disagree with you" somebody says "that's idiotic", then the comeback is "no, you're an idiot" and there have even been escalated cases (England, IIRC) that ultimately resulted in murder.

Usually though, it's "&^*&^ you, you %&%&* *&^#*^# )*)(*)(er!!!!!!!"

I have tried to prepare for being attacked my own self, with prepared comebacks. If anybody ever says to me, "Lerner, you are a stupid little idiot!", then I will say, "Oh yeah, who are you calling 'little'? "

Anyway, that's my almost-comedic stab at being peacemaker. And I don't like being peacemaker. I don't.

Listen: It's a GIRL, Robb! Just like your mom and mine, RIP. There's a difference.











Lerner said...

Ironically, if I read this correctly and Robb is criticizing people who criticize him ('reading comprehension') for attacking Robb for not being pure-Paleo pure-VLC enough, then holy cow (non-profanity), Robb will you join me in saying that Gary Taubes is a boob!

This would be like the old Robb, looking maybe for what's right and not being 'Paleo-god'. Maybe.

Steven Hamley said...

I agree with Edward

"Aggressive approach by you, aggressive response by Robb"

If you had put your question differently you probably would have gotten a different response.

To try and answer your question: I bet Robb felt to need to include that because he would have otherwise gotten an email/comment asking something like 'so you think evidence based medicine is stupid?'. And this would have been based on past experiences where he has gotten emails/comments that missed the point of the message he was trying to convey. He has a large enough audience and emails received every day it's likely and he would be over it

Lerner said...

Nope, it's a vulgarity against a girl. G I R L

Lerner said...

Robb will never in his life be a wussie. so Robb won't shy from reading this thread; Robb has honor, you know 'honor', you do. It's a GIRL, Robb!

Lerner said...

Can somebody who does "tweets", then tweet my comments to Robb? Let's test him. Or is there now a 'thug gangsta" brand of Paleo? C'mon, Robb -- be your better self. I remember you as being admirable. Robb Wolf, be your better self. You were honorable. You were, Robb. You were.

Edward said...

Okay, so your point in addressing him initially was to remonstrate him for his response to this particular "duped" issue. You are technically correct, but isn't that meer minutia when the larger issues are how and when lc and vlc are to be implemented? As I outlined above I really don't think he mislead anybody. I do agree with him, people need to read and listen a lot more carefully.

Alternatively, he could spend a lot more time clarifying the parameters if his statements-something I do in philosophy, a vocational demand. I doubt he'd like to do this (although he'd benefit in terms of mass appeal). Those involved and trained in scientific research tend to understand each other rather quickly and accurately as most terms and ways of looking at data are fixed. This is not immediately clear to non-specialists, but for the most part what isn't explicitly stated is simply not intended. Perhaps, this sounds a bit obvious but a couple of hours discussing data with scientist will show any non-specialist how often we are prone to infer more than is intended. Mitigating factors haunt every observation. I think much of this drives the communication and misunderstanding. If one reads/listens the corpus if his contributions he hasn't been unclear.

Now if the issue is simply that he misunderstood that people were asking after the particular way in which he was duped, then they simply want to know something he himself brought up and explained-then he should be reminded that he first brought.
Or he knows he brought up being "duped" and he can't stand having to reiterate the particulars again. So his frustration is that ppl didn't pay attention when he said that he had been duped. So he is guilty of having a severe response; of being a meany.

Either way, Robb is being a forgetful crank or cranky. C'mon he is doibg great work and on an awesome journey he is including us in. Let's drop this. Just ask for an apology.

Lerner said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cavelesbian said...

What's GIRL got to do with it? Evelyns gender identity has absolutely no bearing on whether publically telling her to go fuck herself is appropriate. Especially since it was viewed by tens of thousands of followers.

Mir Writes said...

I think a more helpful approach when one is writing is to assume that if there is a lot of "miscomprehension", that maybe one ought to write it more clearly or say, "I may not have been as clear as I could have been. Let me try another way of phrasing or explaning X for you." Instead, it's all on the readers. It's their fault and he's a-okay. There's a kind of arrogance in that which should not be in a person who stands before many as an educator, a position he has assuredly taken. A but of humility and respect for readers is in order.

On the other hand, I have to agree that you started it off confrontationally, and he hit back with ratcheted up aggression. No excuse for that sort of rudeness and it serves no purpose. It does not advance any sort of better understanding. I did expect better of Robb. I would have expected that from C-word dude, not Robb.

shadow said...

It seems to me that you provoke then play coy.

Edward said...

I also think people attribute too much goodness to the ancestral health people, as if we were in a religion and these guys were our pastors. Honorable? I don't know. Sounds unspecifically overly virtous. Hardworking, fair, hard nosed, curmudgeon, nerd, tinkerer? Absolutely!

These guys don't have to be likeable, but I know we-the audience-can derail, demotivate, stifle and send ppl in Robb's position ( public personalities who perform a mostly free service for the benefit of all) into a depression funk or worse, an anxiety spiral.

Instead of an abrasive approach try to encourage. This guy worked harder for most ppl than their doctors have or ever will.

Edward said...

I'd agree with you but not only does the time factor work against continually unpacking information (he trains spec. forces, has gym, food biz, is writing new book, and blogs) but this runs counter to his much professed Liberterian leanings.
I'm sure he doesn't feel the onus of shutting down all avenues of potential misunderstanding. Instead he probably expects the audience to do the comprehension lifting with assiduous attention to detail. I believe i've heard him deride hand holding.

Travis Culp said...

I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation for all of this. It's probably simply that the high school student he pays to write his books/posts/etc. also runs his Twitter account. That fellow's unrequited affection for his crush ("I can't believe she's going to prom with that loser, Derek") has plunged him deep into a depressive state. Afflicted as he is with this classic case of "oneitis," his angst has boiled over into his professional life and caused these uncharacteristic bouts of petulance.

Robb is probably on vacation and has no idea any of this has happened. When he finds out, I'm sure he'll knock this poor kid in line and issue a convincing apology. Maybe Robb will even train this kid well enough that he will oust Derek from his position as starting quarterback and win the heart of his one true love.

See? Perfectly good explanation.

Unknown said...

Guys tell each other to GFY all the time

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Hi Steven, As you can see from the Google search, he's been snarking at the readers in every post. I admit, I could have been more tactful, but someone with Robb's reputation especially should have a thicker skin for stuff like that.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

What great work is he doing that excuses this behavior? For the record, Robb and I have exchanged a few cordial emails. He even has my phone number from the Krusegate times. So I let that sit for a bit and checked my inbox. Even had to go out to run an errand. We have tussled a bit in the past week or two, but so? Tell me off in an email maybe? Or just reply in a sarcastic snit OK. But make sure your 50K+ followers see that the big bad Wolf told me to go eff myself? I'm not sure an apology undoes that, but the only one that stands a chance is not one that needs to be asked for.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Nah, the kid running the place would never be this petulant ;-)

Josh said...

In the UK it is considered to be a phrase of endearment.

flippantsoup said...

Hey Evelyn, thanks for being a badass and calling people out like you do. I've read through your website over the last few weeks and it's taken me a while to de-brainwash myself, greatly appreciate your critical stance.

I hope to one day be as knowledgeable. Keep up the good work!

Dustbunny said...

And you think YOU are demonstrating professionalism? Professionals don't start a sentence with "WTF" or end one with "assinine". You're being hypocritical.

river rance said...

Robb Wolf's gig started to go off the rails when he decided to partner up with JM and go on a cruise with Moore. Moore's not LC and neither is Robb Wolf. The whole Paleo concept has an expiration date and he knows that, also lots more competition to be the Grand Wizard of Paleo. New BroScience from authors no one has ever heard of, has put pressure on book sales. Hey, didn't his association with CrossFit end badly? This is probably the real Robb Wolf, a very scared little man. But, hanging out with Jimmy Moore, let's face it, makes you look healthier & smarter. And its a free cruise to boot.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I have conceded the point that my tweet was not in the best of form. OK? But. I have had FAR worse directed at me and I have not devolved to responses remotely resembling this. I let it "sit" for a while to allow him to cool off and delete it, he did not, and he made sure his followers saw it. Robb could have responded "whoa Evelyn, dial it back" or something like that, but he did not.

His words are inexcusable. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

This is the real Robb Wolf. He has a history of this. I re-read his response to Krusegate on Paleohacks the other day. I made sure Robb knows ALL pertinent information and he probably knows more than I do about Kruse's side/actions. But he will be headlining the cruise.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Oh ... and this would be bad enough before the KKK stuff.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Thank you!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Spoken like someone who clearly doesn't know me. Coy I am not. I was not provoking a fight. When I read the "reading comprehension" thing yet again, I responded. Not my best day, OK. Worthy of his response? No.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

;-)

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yep, copped to that Mir.

river rance said...

From CrossFit nutrition guru to cruising with Jimmy Moore on a low carb joy ride....that’s going from the Penthouse to the Outhouse. CF’s meteoric rise in popularity...13 gyms in 2005(about the time Wolf was fired) to a staggering 4,300 today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossFit) !
He could still be part of that and really, really making money, go to hell kind of money. And money is what it’s all about with hucksters,(Sisson,Moore,Eades,Davis,Fallon,Taubes,Naughton) take your pick or add one.
Imagine for a moment your career has spiraled down to hanging out with Jimmy Moore on a cruise ship, cruising for a couple hundred people to buy a book...that’s how it appears, that’s how it is.
I’ve thought of him as a little man selling out, since he hooked up with JM, and his recent vulgar tweet only supports my sincere belief how small and desperate he is.

Woodey said...

First off sorry you got this thrown at you. However, kudos for rattling his cage!!! Robb peddles bunk and makes a living off of taking advantage of people who don't know any better. I don't buy his nice guy, I care about you image. He wants money and to make a living not having to work for the Man 9-5 mon-fri. The whole supplement shtick is a testament to his double standard and lack of conviction about his own diet.

Mr.Wolfinsheep'sclothing is nothing more than a self seeking glory hound, that peddles snake oils and charms. He truly is the Feces Whisperer.

shadow said...

You are a blogger and a tweeter. I am like most of your readers in the not knowing you department. Just like you do not know Robb Wolf.

You often use "lol" after pointed comments. Thus why I said you play coy after pushing sharp sticks at the animals. No one can know the nuances that are within your mind. I am bringing to your awareness how you come off to, at least some, people.

Travis Culp said...

This is easily the best post that has had anything to do with paleo that I have ever seen in my life.

Travis Culp said...

Seems a bit more like a sheep in wolf's clothing.

Charles Grashow said...

You must really be pushing some people's buttons if there are now web sites devoted to attacking you - keep up the good work


http://carbsaner.blogspot.co.uk/

An example
http://carbsaner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/sane-advice-for-anyone-who-wants-to.html

"SATURDAY, 16 MARCH 2013

Sane Advice For Anyone Who Wants To Critique KKK's Character

I recently had an email from someone I'll just call T. He did give his name and email address and gave me permission to use them, but I will never do that. I know there's someone who's got nothing better to do than cyberstalk others.

Anyways, T wanted to offer some advice to people like Richard Nikoley (and maybe now Robb Wolf plus how many thousands of others).

"Don't call Evelyn AKA CarbSane a c*nt - just call her an a$$hole. They basically mean the exact same thing, but the second option means you can't be accused of being a woman-hater. Plus 'a$$hole' I think sounds more accurate and to the point. C*nt suggests that there is some element of femaleness, whereas there isn't. She sounds a lot like a man or someone who has smoked 80 cigarettes a day for 500 years."

Thanks so much for those wise words, T."

Lerner said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

I think I understand.
If you had written "What the fuck..." spelled out in full, and Robb had replied "Go F yourself" then there'd be no problem.

But Robb used the problematic "uck" part of the word, so he's out of order. Got it.

Travis Culp said...

Wow, you officially have a stalker...lucky....

When will it be my turn to have a psycho watching my every move?

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Carole Sampson (who runs the carbsaner blog and two other sites with names similar to Evelyn's) wrote:-
"KKK, you're starting to sound like an irrational, mentally unstable bunny boiler here!"
That's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! :-D

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I know Robb better than you think.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/my-story.html

Carole links to Ellen Davis' site. Strange. I remember this woman from Jimmy's forum. How very sad she now has to eat less than 1000 cal/day to lose weight. I do believe long term low carbing is responsible. Dana Carpender is doing this every other day to maintain her weight. These are the people who think 1500 cal/day is a starvation diet.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Carole's Google+ circle: Paul Jaminet, Stefani Ruper, Jimmy Moore, Richard Nikoley
Very interesting.

Oh, and Nikoley, the IHC is not about the ancestral health foundation though they are sadly part of the problem. I'd explain my reasons for submitting a proposal but it's beyond your level of reading comprehension.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

No, it is context. If you can't see the difference I can't help you.

Steven Hamley said...

Hi Evelyn,

I agree with your comment. Even though I tried to give an explanation as to why Robb wrote what he did (the reading comprehension), I think that like you, he could have phased that better so as to not give potential offense.

I'm a regular reader of your blog (and will continue to be) because your science posts are interesting* and calling out dodginess in the community is needed, valuable and informative.

I think this 'drama' has been way overblown and is nothing some apologies and open dialogue can't fix.

And Lerner: what does Evelyn's gender have to do with this?

* I think you'll give a good talk at AHS on legumes, even though I'll begin watching it with a different opinion

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Thanks Steven, I think what my gender has to do with it is related to my asking Robb if he kisses the women in his life with that mouth. I have learned a lesson, do not use WTF if I don't really mean to say the exact words. In my world it's kind of like saying BS vs. spelling it out, but I'm not going to bother with it, just avoid it in the future. That is different than any man telling any woman to go eff themselves. It's worse even than FU or eff off.

Paleo has been the subject of a few mainstream pieces lately and I think that is taking a bit of a toll on Robb who is almost invariably mentioned. These pieces have not been favorable and some have dealt with the gender politics. It's bad enough you have few women in "power" and so many of the men are in the pick up artist business. I really don't think paleo needs Robb Wolf behaving in this manner, and if the community thinks it's defensible, they really need to look in the mirror why the image of paleo is the way it is.

Thanks for reading and your feedback! I hope to change a few minds about legumes :D

Diana said...

Hi Evelyn,

I disagree with you about equating "go eff yourself" with Nikoley's use of the c-word. I think that you do see the difference, as you are saying to Mike.

Having gotten that out of the way, my feeling is that anyone who associates with Kruse, who has completely disgraced his medical degree, is a disgrace him/herself. It's as bad as crying I didn't know and being interviewed by David Duke.

And if Dayspring doesn't come out and denounce Jimmy's reckless disregard of his health, I'll put him in the same garbage can as the aforementioned.

Derek H said...

Late to the game (I try not to read this stuff on the weekends), and I would say I do agree with Lerner's points. My initial reaction was that it was as close to baiting a response as you could get, but I don't believe that was Evelyn's intent. I did not, having listened to most of Robb's podcast, take his response as particularly harsh and direct. He has a different approach to these types of responses - unlike RN - that seems to be of a comedic tone. I'm not saying it's funny, but I could "hear" Robb's voice in my head when reading it. That probably makes little sense to everyone, and doesn't dismiss what he said, but I figured I would add my opinion - I do enjoy both blogs thoroughly (less the uber-paleo site however).

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Hi Derek, thanks for your perspective. I could see if it was "go fuck yaself" meant in that way. But his behavior moving forward tells me otherwise. Not funny whatsoever.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Please do fill me in here a bit more. He mentioned this in his paleohacks post re:Kruse. Did I read that right? 50-60 caps per day?! No wonder this guy is so insecure about his "schtick".

MM said...

Wow, it didn't take much to get Rob's goat. Thanks for showing us his true colors.

sexyfemalemuscle said...

It's about time someone said it..

flippantsoup said...

No problem!

Just to add to your point on Robb condescending his readers:

I remember listening to one of Robb's semi-recent podcasts a while ago, and in it someone asked him how they could stew bones from their meat because they've never done it before. Robb again replied in a condescending tone, saying how he doesn't mention these things because he's always been a great cook from an early age, and then eventually gave a brief reply which.

This is another thing which, since being disillusioned with the diet, irks me about the promoters. First, they all sell cookbooks which are sometimes quite frankly terrible. When I was first a baby to the nutrition scene I bought Loren Cordain's Paleo cookbook. Holy moly it didn't even have pictures, it was just text!

Also, they pretend it's super easy to cook a paleo meal three or four times a day. A lot of mothers join the movement and start cooking paleo meals for their kids and spend all day in the kitchen. I remember reading on one blog that one women 'doesn't mind spending all day cooking because she would rather be healthy'. Most people who go paleo have to go through a huge amount of hassle to bring paleo foods with them everywhere they go, as well. The message that paleo gurus sell is too extreme and this is what makes the diet damaging.

I could go on about the social strain it put me through as well, but I'm sure you've made these points before in previous posts, so I'm just having a cathartic moment as I remember the 'bad' things I went through thanks to Robb Wolf/Mark Sisson and his friends. Thanks goodness I don't have to stress about these things anymore!

paleotwopointoh said...

Eh, my family's never had to carry around special foods. If we are at some social setting that's grain and starch heavy, a request for gluten-free is good enough, or just having a bite or two for politeness. My one mostly paleo-eating kid (the other is exclusively breastfed) does fine with the occasional cracker or pastry from a relative. I wouldn't stick with a way of eating that meant a single bite of bread would leave me ill for days or whatever.

Having said that, I would be more inclined to not say I eat paleo/primal and instead say I eat Real Food if Real Food didn't just mean 'I eat homemade bread' to most people I know.

flippantsoup said...

I thought I was eating real food too, but there was always cognitive dissonance when I was trying to explain to myself how grains and legumes weren't real food. After all, they come from the earth and they are unprocessed (noted processed grains aren't whole like whole grains). I put it down to them not being readily consumed by paleolithic man, but watching this video indicates it actually was and the anthropological data upon which paleo gurus have based their diets and hypothesis isn't even correct:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

With this in mind, a real/whole foods diet *would* contain whole grains and legumes. Arguably processed grains could be exluded as they are not 'whole', but let's be honest they are still a long way from actual processed foods.

Back when I was fully brainwashed into paleo, I would eat grains and legumes reluctantly and they would give me digestive problems. On letting go of that belief, I can now eat grains/legumes and they don't give me problems at all. Plus, I can now socialize fully without having neurotic thoughts about eating food other people give me, so my health has actually improved.

Fair enough on the point that you don't carry around special food, but I've seen plenty of paleomum bloggers do it!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

The carrying around special food was all the rage for various bloggers heading out to even PaleoFX! Pack this jerky and that jar of coconut oil, etc.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

The Feces Whisperer .... A sheep in wolf's clothing! Just catching up on some old comments and getting in a few good laughs.

Huntress Paleo said...

I didn't even know who Robb Wolf was when I started a primal diet. It was only recently that I listened to Robb Wolf's podcast series in reverse, and it was obvious to me that his stance on carbs had changed dramatically over several years. I think Robb's issue is that people tend to pick out articles from different points in time and try to hold him to one specific, rigid position, when like any good scientist, his position changes as more evidence becomes available.

I have tremendous respect for him being willing to take the criticism from folks who would rather bash him for changing his views than recognize that that is what makes a good scientist. Frankly, I'm amazed he doesn't reach critical mass MORE often when people accuse him of being hypocritical.

When an entire body of work is available, it behooves the reader to consider the timeline involved in the information and to adjust their criticisms accordingly. Having said all that, I'm sometimes put off by his harsh responses to certain individuals. But I don't walk in his shoes, know the history, or have any idea what his day's been like beforehand- so i cut him some slack. It's a little weird actually to see an entire post dedicated to proving you were wronged. As rude as he was, you are the one who comes off looking childish by calculating and tabulating your "justification" for feeling slighted.


Huntress

Huntress Paleo said...

Why do "paleo meals" take any more cooking than any other kind of meal? I have three kids, I don't cook any more than I used to.

Huntress Paleo said...

LOL Exactly. Try being a little more genuine. Does anyone really believe that just because you don't spell it out, that the message is different? Talk about nickel and dime-ing the justification.

carbsane said...

No Huntress. WTF is nothing like telling someone to go fuck themselves. I suspect you know that though.

carbsane said...

Since you chose to comment here at this late date, I wonder if you took your own advice and read a bit more here on this blog vis a vis this issue with Robb. He has lied about the web and misrepresented our previous email relationship/interactions. I haven't accused him of being hypocritical. I will now accuse him of being dishonest because I have personal knowledge of his being so. I will say that his and Chris Kresser's supplement line presents serious inconsistencies for both of them as well. Not sure if I'll bother with it or not but I'm FAR from the only one to notice and comment on that.

As to his changing positions over time, can we at least hold him "responsible" for the science he put forth in his book vis a vis the scientific knowledge at that time? Would that be OK with you? You know, like his "geek rants" and mentions of being a scientist but making statements inconsistent with our knowledge of biochemistry basics at that time? It is very odd that the person who so assuredly put forth so much information in a late 2010 book was somehow "duped".

This comment provides me with some ideas to tie up some loose ends in a blog post. He wasn't just rude in the single tweet so when time permits.

carbsane said...

"paleo meals" is probably an oxymoron.

Huntress Paleo said...

You mean you need yet another blog post to prove you've been wronged? Wow. People are people, we all have our flaws. The continued harping shines a worse light on YOU than on him.


It's simple enough to attack an idea without attacking a person. And still incredibly disingenuous to get so offended because someone responded with more vigor to your insulting comment than you expected. Was it overkill? Maybe... perhaps even probably. But the fact remains that it was instigated by YOU.


(And since when is 6 weeks in a "late date" with blog posts?)

Huntress Paleo said...

It is... it's not identical, but it's offensive. I suspect YOU know that though. And if you didn't, you do now.

Huntress Paleo said...

Well that was awfully snarky... what gives? I most certainly eat meals... how is it an oxymoron?

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