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Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Tuesday, March 19, 2013

Zohan III

I just realized that Robb posted a few comments on this post on his blog. My stalker (Google+ Circle Paul Jaminet, Richard Nikoley, Stefani Ruper, Jimmy Moore) that he's buddying up with didn't link to it. So anyway, in this post I will respond to some of what he said. I'll save the email exchange we had about the KKKrap for a near-future post.  I'd rather not share it, but that ball is entirely in Robb's court.   I'm kinda thinking that if/when I do, if there's still time, the "down in participation" cruise will have even smaller representation.  (Aside:  There are still tickets available to PaleoFX and even giveaway contests ... perhaps the community needs to ask itself why.)

So, Melissa called Robb on his assertion that I "drug him into" the whole Jack Kruse thing.  This would be laughable were it not such a maddening flat out lie.  In the exchange Melissa brought up the fact that Jimmy is once again doing a 6-day fast.  Here is Robb's response:



Remind me, this is 2013 right?  So two years would bring us back to some time in 2011.  Yeah, Robb (and Gary) were set to do the 2012 KKKetanic before the 2011 one sailed and it was highly touted.  I may have wondered out loud why he would do this but bugging him?  What?  The paleo God cannot even be questioned??   I never interacted with this guy  in any significant manner until May 2012, so it's barely been one year that I've been bugging him, if that's what is to be concluded.   

Yes, after Krusegate went down, I began questioning why Robb would associate himself with such a circus side show.  Who wouldn't?  I'm sure a boatload of his staunch devotees probably were wondering the same.  So I guess Robb was stalking me (some call it reading someone's blog, but I'm trying to get hipper with the lingo) and read a few comments here, likely among a backdrop of comments from followers and HE felt the need to justify himself to me in this email:


I know you are reading this JimKKKins so take note what Robb thinks of you:  "Jimmy's silly cruise".     And, frankly, if you're booked on this cruise, I'm sure you are feeling good about how much Robb is looking forward to meeting y'all. It seems to me that the paleo movement has peaked or why else does Mark Sisson go on Jimmy's podcast to sell his new book in January, or give link love to Richard Nikoley in exchange for his endorsement of the sauce cookbook?   In any case here was my response and his.   I used this as an opportunity to touch base with Robb.  Most of that month are a blur so I do not recall if I left the VM here.  We didn't end up connecting.

Bottom line here, I was not "bugging him" in the manner he is implying.  Apparently questioning his continued involvement with the fraud Jimmy Moore might have bugged him, but I can't help that.  Speaking of which, one of the things I wanted to discuss with him was Jimmy's inaction following Krusegate. Below are two picture Jimmy's wife posted to Facebook.  I've taken screenshots to protect the innocent ;-)  


You can click to enlarge but the photo captions are for on their way to their stateroom, and their stateroom. Now Robb was in possession of Jack Kruse's stateroom number, it was in the letter Jack wrote to Carnival that he included in his email to Robb.  It included his booking and cabin number:  "I was booked to cabin 2278".  Below is the relevant Carnival Magic Deck Plan.

Now, if it really went down as Jack said, Jimmy would know. And he knew/knows that it didn't.  That sort of crazy doesn't go down on a cruiseship w/o everyone knowing something happened. QED. My guess is if Jack was detained, it was pre-boarding.  

Again, a very special thank you to Robb Wolf for complaining that I have withheld such critical information from emails and not shared all that I know with my readers out of some apparently misplaced sense of common courtesy.  I never had any intention of sharing this!  Robb really kinda owes me a thank you dontcha think?

72 comments:

river rance said...

Evelyn,
That would be “silly ass cruise” not “silly cruise”.... you don’t want Wolf slinging all that bandwidth at ya, for misquoting him. By his own words, he is a vulgar communicator. If you get his exact height we’ll order him some big boy pants, we may have to shop in the children’s dept.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

While I think having someone take a "better" message to a "silly ass cruise", it does seem to me this is a cordial exchange, not a, "Get away from me you fricken stalker" exchange. If you were bugging him, it sure doesn't sound like it. It looks like two folks having a normal email exchange of info.

I suppose revisionist history happens in more than just academia.

Anyway, I have no problems with anyone doing an educational stint on a "silly ass cruise", if they're willing to be Elijahs--throw them the truth, even if it ruffles feathers. If Robb had that in mind, why not? Some folks might benefit.

I do think Paleo has been mainstreamed. It's on lists of "best diets" now, and people in my own family who were ridiculing it when I was talking about it in 2010 and 2011 are now thinking of trying it or have friends doing it or have personal trainers pushing it. So, the message got out. I'd rather have folks eating like Robb than like Jimmy. Jimmy's food plans are batshit nuts.

Princess Dieter aka Mir said...

I might add that the way a week's water fast is brushed aside as a non-issue was rather surprising. I mean, is this normal now out there in nutrition-land that no one bats an eye at someone not eating food of any kind for seven days? I know ascetics and gurus do this routinely, but is this now just normal stuff in dieting or Paleo/Primal or low carb circles? Really? I would think this sort of thing for someone with medical conditions would require medical supervision...

Travis Culp said...

Paleo as practiced is basically a low-grade eating disorder so something like that isn't going to alarm him. So many people engaging in various "fasting protocols" as though having anorexia for 1/3rd of every day is a legitimate practice. It's really indicative of how sloppy these diets are that there need to be extended (non-sleeping) periods of fasting instead of just eating when hungry.

Anyway, on a totally unrelated note, I was going to ask you about papayas. I had one this morning and, as with every other time I've eaten one or drank papaya juice, it had a slight sort of rotten/bile smell to it. Is this just how papayas are or is it a result of them being picked unripe and shipped around?

Charles Grashow said...

@Travis

What are your thoughts on training in a fasted state?

Charles Grashow said...

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-guest-podcast-schedule-week-of-march-18-2013/18107#comments

As if writing a book isn’t challenging enough right now, I’ve decided to do another one-week fasting experiment all this week to see how I do in a fully keto-adapted state as part of my nutritional ketosis n=1 experiment. I started at 7PM on Saturday night and hope to make it a full week to this Saturday night. When I did this a couple of years ago it was a challenge since I was simply eating low-carb and not necessarily being in a state of ketosis (my NK testing has shown there is a BIG difference). As I’m writing this, I’m coming up on 48 hours without any food at all. Interestingly, my hunger has been very well-controlled although I am finally starting to feel that gnawing in my stomach. I’m testing my blood sugar, blood ketones and weight every hour on the waking hour all week long and will publish those results for you soon. If at any point my blood sugar dips too low, I’ll end the experiment immediately. So far, the lowest my blood sugar has gone is 70 and I felt completely fine. Blood ketones levels are predictably rising the longer I fast and I fully expect them to go up over 5.0 millimolar before this week is over. It will be another fascinating bit of data to share about my NK journey. Stay tuned!

Charles Grashow said...

https://www.facebook.com/LLVLC
Jimmy Moore
20 minutes ago
In case you're wondering, yes, I'm still on my 1-week total fast approaching 70 hours--just 4 more days to go. Still testing blood sugar, blood ketones and weight every waking hour. Lowest blood sugar: 62 Highest ketones: 4.6

This comment
Matthew Bowen I'm currently running a clinical trial involving glucose monitoring, fasting, and diabetes management at the University of Saskatchewan. If we ever had a participant with those numbers we would immediately end the fasting intervention. This is unsafe.
2 · 7 minutes ago

This man has a problem

Travis Culp said...

I've seen a lot of bodybuilders who claim that they get better workouts fasted but I don't know if they mean they lift on only water or if they are ingesting the various "preworkout" broscience concoctions most of the utilize. If it works better, do it. If you become hypoglycemic and feel shitty, don't. Something like that is more like "I don't eat right before going on stage because my nerves will make me puke" vs. "I only eat between the hours of 2 and 4 pm because that's what is in my paleolord's latest edict."

MM said...

I just wanted to chime in and say that I do not think the emails sound at all unfriendly or stalker-esque. But I am surprised/confused that Robb is upset with you for *not* sharing his emails? Does he really want to go on record with "Jimmy's silly ass cruise"?? I have to wonder if his mind is a little disordered. Not as bad as JM's, but still not quite all there.

river rance said...

Anyone know how many people are going on The "Silly Ass Cruise"?

Unknown said...

I lift weights and run without having eaten in 10-12 hours or so, I just don't like having anything in my stomach, it pretty much takes puking out of the picture. Usually eat something directly afterwards.

I think you got some bad papayas. Taste should be somewhat sweet, less intense flavor than a mango. Kind of like a melon-type flavor.

Mir Writes said...

Travis, re: papayas. Yes, they can have a very offputting smell. My niece calls it "baby vomit." I don't let mine overripen. I like them when they have some yellowing but not "pits" (those depressions they get as they ripen, they can get really ugly). I like to squeeze lime juice on them. I tend to buy them two at a time, one very green, one with some yellow so I can cut it right off. They make amazing smoothies (with or without milk). When you get one that's really just right (and that's luck of the pick), it can have this amazing toffee taste. I don't know why or how it gets that, but it's just such a treat when you hit the papaya jackpot: Toffeepaya.

Mir Writes said...

He will say that person is just part of the establishment and doesn't understand the value of self-experimentation.

He does have a problem. I'm still convinced he binge-ate and this is his emergency corrective action. The E.D. person's solution tends to be extreme.

Mir Writes said...

I wanted to add that that smell is not always pronounced. I have no idea why it sometimes is and sometimes is not. I suppose that's why someone came up with adding lime--to camouflage the scent? I suspect it's from the enzyme. Papain. But not sure. I eat some every day, and I grew up with my dad making us papaya smoothies, so maybe I'm mostly used to it. :D I did once have to drive home from my sister's with a backseat full of papayas from her tree, and man, that was not pleasant. The smell!

Travis Culp said...

Thanks for the info! I'll eat it a little less ripe next time and see how it goes.

Unknown said...

Papaya trivia: In Cuba they are called "Fruita Bomba" because the word "Papaya" is slang for a certain part of a woman's anatomy.

Charles Grashow said...

This is interesting

http://robbwolf.com/2012/04/16/paleo-diet-risk-assessment/
"What the current program consists of"

At present the program consists of a risk assessment as I’ve described above. Folks who are at risk are put through a comprehensive program of paleo/low carb nutrition*, exercise (mandatory strength & conditioning), help with managing sleep issues and continued monitoring. Police and Fire are not simply told “go lose weight” they are actually guided through an effective program."

http://robbwolf.com/2012/05/16/paleo-diet-risk-assessment-update/


http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2822&issue_id=122012

Case one. This was accomplished with a low-carbohydrate diet, exercise, a weight loss of 12 pounds, and medication—in this case, a generic statin costing $10 every three months. The officer’s LDL dropped more than 1,200 points to ideal levels.

Case two - This case is a six-year follow-up on a 52-year-old police officer. He lost 40 pounds (including five inches from his waist) and corrected almost all of his numbers including four of the markers that diagnose him with metabolic syndrome. He went from having five out of five metabolic markers to one out of five. His overall risk dropped precipitously, and his triglycerides went from 270 to 38. These results were achieved by the same basic approach that was used in case one but with more pharmaceuticals.

Question - How come Mr Wolf DOESN'T mention ANYTHING about the DRUGS the police were taking??


Karen said...

EV I thot I. Had your email address. but I will ask here.I have been under the impression there r no studies confirming low fat. I gather that is not true?

Travis Culp said...

themoreyouknow.jpg

Woodey said...

Yeah I was wondering if he had small man complex myself. Honestly, I think he is just a grown up jock. Look on the back of his book and he has a pick full of meat-heads, even one of the testimonials he lists is from a pro football player. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does indicate that there is a theme with this guy. And personally I want something more than jockstrap philosophy when it comes to guiding my way through life.

Woodey said...

"I'm still convinced he binge-ate and this is his emergency corrective action"

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have done the exact same thing in my life before and completely understand the mindset and motivating force in taking such an action. Jimmy has an eating disorder and instead of getting help to treat that disorder he makes a buffoon of himself, while in the process leading many people down the same path. He's a warped enabling diet guru.

Bob said...

Kaye Gilligan @matthew. Chill, Mr Moore is no fool. He's not some hormonal carb addicted teen following some fad. He is an educated adult male choosing to challenge the bunkum that "experts" churned out of labs and turned a generation of folk into sick obese followers. We need the Moores in our world. Fear based thinking vs evidence. He's keto adapted his physiology is different, and above all he's not gonna get sued, he can push his own boundaries!

Oh wow, we definitely need more Moores.

Woodey said...

Carbsane I think Robb is more of a demi-god than a main god... Remember Sisson is papa bear and Robb is baby bear in the world of Paleo magic.

Bob said...

"Question - How come Mr Wolf DOESN'T mention ANYTHING about the DRUGS the police were taking??"

Cause he hasn't come up with a cool paleo name for them yet...jeszzz

Mir Writes said...

Duh. Because statins weren't taken by Grok. Not Paleo. Leave that inconvenient little thing out.

Sue Staltari said...

1 week water fast for someone obese should be fine - interesting to see how much muscle compared to fat loss). Maybe fasting on juices better to maintain muscle?? I kind of think also JM doing it because he had a binge.

cavelesbian said...

I wonder if there was a control group treated ONLY with pharmaceuticals...

Christopher said...

And don't forget that Kurt is John the Baptist to Gary Taubes' Jesus...

Mir Writes said...

Cavelesbian: I wondered that myself. I mean, it would be useful to see just how beneficial it would be without statins (which I don't think highly of myself, having used them with low tolerance and awful side-effects).

Mir Writes said...

The experiment is now ended according to the following FB udpate:
~~~Well, my water fast officially ended today at 72 hours. I started getting a headache in my left temple that persisted for 3 hours with my blood sugar hitting 59 for two of those hours. It was time to end it. I felt great other than that headache which went away when I ate something. It was a good experience I will blog about soon with the blood sugar, blood ketones and weight changes. It may surprise you!~~~

river rance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
river rance said...

I had a bunch of typos in the post, my fingers were not quiet on the right keys….

Anyway, Woodey, Just remember…."If you can't be an athlete at least you can be an athletic supporter."

Travis Culp said...

And Dick is Homer Simpson while Kruse is definitely Dr. Nick Riviera

Woodey said...

"Hi everybody!!"

Woodey said...

LOL!!!That made me laugh. Thank you. I needed my daily chuckle, I have been way to serious of late.

Dustbunny said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Woodey said...

The downside to this sort of make-up for a binge is that ending the starvation period usually starts another binge. LOL! Oh Lord! Mrs.M better stock up on butter and coconut oil....

Dustbunny said...

What binge? You guys making up your own stories again? LOL!

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.dansplan.com/assets/Ideal_Weight_Program_Scientific_Rational.pdf

http://www.dansplan.com/

coconutz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
coconutz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Charles Grashow said...

http://c2cjournal.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/C2CJournal_Winter2013-FINAL.pdf
Quacks and Conspiracies: The undermining of science and your health

http://c2cjournal.ca/

Diana said...

Travis,

I love fruit, by definition - in fact it was craving for fruit that was the final straw between me and the LC cult - but papaya is the only fruit I don't like, except in the form of Gray's Papaya Juice. :)

Sue,

What's the story about fasting and muscle loss? My hunch, based on nothing but hunch, is that muscle wasting doesn't happen until your fat stores are really really low - in other words, until you've undergone prolonged starvation. And Jimmy isn't near that. I think that unless you get down to essential fat the body uses available sugar and fat to survive. But I could be wrong. Correct me if I am, but the fear of muscle wastage in fasting is overblown.

Diana said...

Evelyn,

"I started getting a headache in my left temple that persisted for 3 hours with my blood sugar hitting 59 for two of those hours."

Do you think there is any medical significance to the fact that his left temple was hurting? I am not joking, I am asking this in all seriousness.

Diana said...

Travis - Given Grok, wouldn't Barney Rubble to Robb's Fred Flintstone be more appropriate?

Diana said...

Just curious, since we are all having so much fun with Paleo - is it as big of a deal over the puddle in UK? France? Germany? Liechtenstein? Monaco? Moldavia?

Or is this strictly an American phenomenon?

Travis Culp said...

America invented the eating disorder, but it's now one of our biggest exports.

Charles Grashow said...

Jimmy Moore I've done a full one-week fast before. Very hard coming off of it--hard to stop eating. I felt that some tonight but restrained myself from consuming too much. When I stopped eating I still felt the gnaw of hunger. Strange considering all I ate.

Gabriella Kadar said...

You can make roast Cornish hen or chicken with papaya chunks (not too ripe) instead of tomatoes. That solves the crappy smell problem. I'm not a great fan of papaya either (and that includes eating it where it grows so it's not a matter of imports). It seems people from places where it is grown continue to cook with it even here when it's way too expensive for what it's worth, especially the green ones. Tropical fruits in general tend to be rather bland anyway. Except for citrus and pineapple.

Mir Writes said...

Depends what part of Cuba people are from. I'm Cuban-born of Cuban parents, and my dad and mom called it "batido de papaya". Fruta bomba is another word used for it, but on my side of the island, we called it Papaya.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Diana, unilateral headache: could be muscle tension because he is clenching his teeth with sympathetic nervous system overstimulation due to hunger. (he did say he's feeling great, so he may be a bit hyper.) Eating resulted in relaxation. Parasympathetic activity: rest and digest.

Mir Writes said...

Dust bunny, that was my theory/guess/whatever, and Jimmy himself stated the scale showed an uptick due to a large meal right before he kicked off this fast. Knowing folks with eating disorders--and myself having a history of binge-eating, no binge for almost 3 years, thankfully--I know that that can be code for a big meal of overeating, which can easily trigger the remorse phase of strict measures, that always used to backfire for me with another binge. So, my theory comes from that. Never said he did binge. Said I "suspected" it from history/actions...

Gabriella Kadar said...

@ cqvelesbian: most people put on statins are like the 'control group' to which you refer. They don't change anything about their diet, just take the pills.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Travis, that's not true at all. There are all sorts of female R.C. saints who starved themselves to death.

Mir Writes said...

I'm guessing not going over big in Asia--the Indians aren't gonna eat their cows, the Chinese and Japanese aren't about to ditch rice and soy, but the North Koreans surely would love for us to send them many metric tons of grassfed ANYDAMNTHING, cause they're just hungry.

Travis Culp said...

No, no, Gabriella, the nutritional martyrs are the vegans.

Lighthouse keeper said...

In reply to Diana - most people in the UK would give you a blank look if you asked them if they had heard about the Paleo diet, however in a pub a few weeks ago I mentioned it to someone who said " Paleo? Isn't that kind of the food wing of the Tea Party and NRA crowd? "

lian johnston said...

Confirming what about low fat? There's low fat studies that have success in reversing heart disease, angina diabetes, hypertension, etc etc. It's true low carb studies tend to do slightly better in free living weight loss studies, mainly because the low fat diets are not only woeful, but don't even really classify as low fat. And for people put on a low carb diet it's a bit of a novelty at first being able to eat all the forbidden fatty foods, but their longer term success is just as bad or even worse than any other diet.

lian johnston said...

It's kind of taking off in Australia, especially this year. You see all the paleologic based arguments being used in the comment sections of health articles on news websites. I've noticed more people on facebook posting their "paleo" recipes. There's a paleo cafe not far from where I live as well.
Oh and I also had a lady tell me how bad my oatmeal and dates breakfast was for me just the other day. I know the lady and she didn't intend it as an insult so I just told her oats don't have gluten and I'm not celiac anyway. This was also coming from someone who was stressed by the 2g of sugar in her 1600 calorie packet of bacon.
Another funny thing is the outrage over HFCS people are apparently eating here. Despite the fact that we don't even use HFCS in Australia, we use cane sugar.

George Henderson said...

Princess, fasting is a normal behaviour; the medically supervised weight loss record is 392 days without ill effects.
What is not normal behaviour is 3 consecutive blog posts about old emails and cruise ship sleeping arrangements.
Evelyn is losing the plot and not one of her sycophants is even interested, let alone calling her attention to what she is actually writing about here.
Evelyn, wherever you are, stop pouring over old emails and the records of cruises you never took, and get back into science. You've had some good ideas recently (like the Med Diet series) but obsessively defending your bad ideas hasn't been one of them.

cavelesbian said...

Yep - I was just implying that if Wolf isn't declaring all the pharma, maybe it's the pharma that is getting the results and not all his voodoo. No way to tell without a control group.

Ty Fyter said...

fracksake...robb has mentioned that there was *targeted* drug use *several* times. if anyone else actually followed any of his stuff you'd have been aware of this 8-9 *months* ago
stop trolling.

(referring to charles onwards, not ev)

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf
Features of a successful therapeutic fast of 382 days' duration

http://www.nufs.sjsu.edu/clariebh/Refeeding%20Study.pdf
Refeeding Procedures After 43 Days of Total Fasting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2466480/pdf/postmedj00373-0059.pdf
Total fasting in the treatment of obesity

Diana said...

Thank you Gabriella. I had wondered whether the left side had any significance in terms of heart issues. I know nothing about medical matters but sometimes total ignoramuses (like me) can come up with insightful questions. But I guess that wasn't one.

Regarding whether this fast is evidence of Jimmy having binged, I just think that the big picture is that Jimmy is a walking example of an eating disorder. Focusing on this or that detail obscures the big picture. No one should be looking to this guy as an example of successful weight loss.

Suppose Jimmy had gone from 410 to 300 and stayed there for 7 years (and I stress stayed there), then he went on this latest shenanigan, I would say, "well done" -- really, I would, because going from 410 to 300 is no mean feat.

But that's not a tenth of what really happened.

He's a health time bomb.

Diana said...

I'm not surprised that Australia is jumping on the Paleo bandwagon - they seem to pick up a lot of our cultural infections.

Gabriella/Travis,

I think Travis is exaggerating but there's a grain of truth in what he is saying about ED's and the US. The female saints who starved themselves to death were professionals. America is the country that pioneered mass production and the entire idea of popular culture. Popular culture can be great (think Fred Astaire) or a disaster (rap music).

Paleo is the rap music of food culture.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I've just posted the following Facebook status:-

What does "Paleo Diet" mean to those who live in England?

Travis Culp said...

First our junk food industry exports it to all of these countries, then once they get obese, our eating disorder industry (not necessarily different people) swoops in and pretends to be helping.

Karen said...

Thank you. You answered my rather inane question.

Gabriella Kadar said...

Left temple headache I wouldn't think was cardio. Left TMJ pain, yes. Heart attack pain can refer to the left temporomandibular joint, so good on you Diana.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Hi Karen! I'll shoot you a note over the weekend but in addition to what lian said about the quality of the foods, it is really important to apply the same standard to what is called LF as what is called LC - 30% is not LF. But I would add that protein not being controlled when comparing diets will always favor LC. As well, protein as a % is misguided, your body needs the same absolute amount of protein regardless of calories,

I blogged this almost 3 years ago: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/04/high-protein-diet-induces-sustained.html 20% Fat (15% fat initial diet switched out for protein) at 50% carb held constant. I'm pretty sure that the 25% protein weight loss diet used in the Ebbeling study was LF too.

Sue Staltari said...

I thought it was embarrassing that Low Carb Down Under invited Jimmy Moore and his wife and paid their costs. He has podcasts etc but not a successful low carber.

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