las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Saturday, April 13, 2013

Paleo Science and the Paleo Diet II

Have a listen to just 30 seconds of Robb Wolf, Diplomat Extraordinaire for Paleo™ from his recent podcast on the Christina Warinner Debunking Paleo video ... transcript here.  


Alan Aragon, highly respected author of the popular and informative Alan Aragon's Research Review, spoke recently at a conference of the National Strength and Conditioning Association, NSCA. They recently put the slides from his presentation online HERE

Please do expend some "skull sweat" as Robb calls it to inform yourself of the full content of Alan's presentation.  Do especially take note of slide 53 which summarizes the paleo studies (some of which) Robb makes frequent reference to (and most of which I've discussed here).  Also take note that 

slides throughout are referenced "inline" -- in other words, if you want to check what Alan's references say against his representations of them, there's no guesswork involved.  You won't need to "stalk" the study to find out something as simple as what the diet was that was tested or study design, etc.  The references, all 9 slides and 51 of them are almost entirely to the peer review literature with nary a reference to YouTube videos and NYT Best Selling diet book authors.  This is in stark contrast to such noted paleo/primal diet "leading nutritional experts" that like to pepper their books with laundry lists of unnumbered references which are almost impossible to decipher (I get the feeling that is the point) who get all bent out of shape when nobody has read their book.  Worse yet if one has read the book and dares ask a question ....
So, have one more listen please ...  
"But anyway at 55 seconds in, Prof. Warinner says this idea was originally started in 1970s. That is absolutely false and part of the frustration around this is that the people who cared to comment on this and whether it’s Alan Aragon of a variety of people they don’t do any goddamn homework on what the topic is. They come in portray this fairly airtight analysis of the topic and I need to actually circle back around on Alan’s stuff. Yeah, just as an aside putting a mental note on that."  (faded lead in not in audio clip)
A few classic quotes from the podcast:
"But for this thing being a debunking of the paleo diet, when you debunk something, you need to start with the first principles of what the thing is talking about. Prof. Warinner absolutely did not do that. It’s frustrating considering her background, her education, her station. It’s kind of appalling and I tried not to be too big of a dick on the written piece that I did. Tried to be respectful but you know, as time has gone on, I’ve actually gotten more annoyed at the whole situation because the anthropology community should be spearheading the changes in our nutritional science scene that could literally turn the titanic around save our bacon and they’re not.
"It’s my observation that the anthropology community, people like Leslie Aiello.  Aiello who interestingly, she did some of the really seminal early paleo diet work having aboriginals eat a traditional diet relative to the westernized diet and reverse type 2 diabetes. Yet she at the recent CARTA conference was really hammering on the paleo diet.  
My sense with all this is that the orthodox or the professional anthropologists are kind of miffed that biochemists and doctors and exercise physiologists, everybody except anthropologists are talking about anthropology and taking about paleo diet much, much more and much more effectively than what the folks in the actual discipline are doing. I think these folks are kind of feeling like they’re losing control of their own discipline and maybe it’s been taken out of context or something like that. 
I just searched for Aiello in Robb's book.  Yeah, I know, stalking.   Not there.  This book was released in September of 2010.  It's no GCBC multi-PhD-thesis masterpiece, so I'm going to generously put a January 2009 cut-off date on any "new information" that might not have made it into the book (despite the fact that if you're citing science, one does a thorough search before embarking on such a feat, and routinely monitors the current literature during the process).  Here's the Amazon blurb:
Do you want to lose fat and stay young, all while avoiding cancer, diabetes, heart disease, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and a host of other illnesses? The Paleo Solution incorporates the latest, cutting edge research from genetics, biochemistry and anthropology to help you look, feel and perform your best. Written by Robb Wolf, a research biochemist who traded in his lab coat and pocket protector for a whistle and a stopwatch to become one of the most sought after strength and conditioning coaches in the world. With Robb's unique perspective as both scientist and coach you will learn how simple nutrition, exercise and lifestyle changes can radically change your appearance and health for the better.

I would note that the title of the book (emphasis mine) is the Paleo Solution, subtitled The Original Human DIET(no s).  You will be transformed in 30 days, lose weight, get fit and reverse disease.  Of course nowadays many of you will need overpriced supplements  (pictured in Alan's presentation) Robb (with Chris Kresser) sells to adapt to this miracle diet we evolved to consume.  More annoying however is that for all the certitude with which TPS reads, and there's no getting away from the singular, Robb is now leading a chorus of "it's a starting point" chants (similar to "personalizing paleo", moving "beyond paleo", applying a "paleo template" or paleo being a "framework").  

I'm going to leave this here for now, but just wanted to bring everyone's attention to the fact that Robb's bad boy of paleo behavior is not limited to those he can throw in with stalkers to trash.  

76 comments:

desmondindalkey said...

I downloaded Aragorn's PDF some hours ago having seen Steve Parker's reference to it.

It summarises - for me - the holes in the notion that there is some "Garden of Eden" diet, from which we have been expelled, some 10,000 years ago.


The process of food industrialisation & distribution began with sugar and flour about 150 years ago.



One does not have to peer "thro' a glass darkly" to find PaleoLithic diets; food changes since (circa) 1850 are sufficient. W Price's work, and recently, Lindeberg's give much guidance.

Charles Grashow said...

Questions for the group

From Dr. Peter Attia's website - in the comments section

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/the-straight-dope-on-cholesterol-part-v

Thomas Dayspring aka "Dr Lipid" May 26, 2012

Well the 50th percentile cutpoint is not normal if one is trying to prevent atherosclerosis. The 20th percentile cutpoint would be considered desirable: that is 80 mg/dL for apoB and < 1000 nmol/L for LDL-P

Barkeater May 31, 2012

Thanks
for replying and thanks for this series.

I am anxious for the grand train wreck that comes when Dr. A tells Jimmy Moore and the low-carb/ paleo crowd that have achieved > 2000 LDL-Ps (yes, I am in that club, thanks to FH) that they have to get to an 1100 LDL-P, and good luck getting there with anything but statins or unproven crap like zetia (or maybe an Ornish diet – me, I choose to eat food). As TO
says, get your popcorn.

Jimmy Moore has gotten an NMR, and reported LDL-P of 2130. I see a significant number of low-carbers seem to have spikes in their LDL-C and LDL-P that would appear to be driven by diet. They are not necessarily FHers like me (but I have seen wide ranging LDL-P, from 1500 to 2800, and cannot yet tie it out to diet). Commenter MacKillop below refers to a double-digit percentage of folks on low-carb diets who see very high LDL-C. Mr. and Mrs.
Jaminet have blogged at some length on the issue. I see the view expressed by some that this phenomenon is due to ApoE4, but I don’t buy it (I am a 3/3).

Peter Attia May 31, 2012
The question we don’t know the answer to is if an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who eats no carbs is the same as an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who does. I had breakfast with Eric Westman today and we discussed this topic. Eric makes a pretty compelling case that these 2 states are not, in fact, the same thing. I think we can safely say we don’t know the answer. At least I don’t. I’ll keep looking for clues, though.

Peter Attia May
31, 2012
I completely agree with Eric’s assertion (in fact, I’m having breakfast with Eric in an hour). This brings up a much larger question that I’m sure I will detail more closely in this series: It is
possible that all of the risk stratification we have for heart disease is predicated on someone consuming a normal Western diet? Furthermore, is it possible that once the body stops relying on glycogen and turns over to metabolic pathways of ketosis that the “numbers” we target as “normal” are irrelevant? I think I know the answer for some physiologic parameters, but I’m still trying to develop my “universal theory” uniting it all.

My questions are these

1) "is an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who eats no carbs the same as an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who does

2) "is it possible that all of the risk stratification we have for heart disease is predicated on someone consuming a normal Western diet? Furthermore, is it possible that once the body stops relying on glycogen and turns over to metabolic pathways of ketosis that the “numbers” we target as “normal” are irrelevant?"

OR

3) Is DR Thomas Dayspring right when he says "Well the 50th percentile cutpoint is not normal if one is trying to prevent atherosclerosis. The 20th percentile cutpoint would be considered desirable: that is 80 mg/dL for apoB and < 1000 nmol/L for LDL-P.

Charles Grashow said...

As Aragorn asks - why is it okay to eat the muscle and organs of an animal whose milk you're not supposed to drink??

John Smith said...

To some he is Robb Wolf, to me he will always be Paleo Jesus. The man has saved more lives than Oskar Schindler and I only hope he will someday be recognized for his contributions to humanity.


He sleeps but two hours a night on a mat made of unfinished southern pine and even during those meager hours of rest he is always thinking, thinking, thinking.



"I could have done more!" he thinks, "This pair of Vibram Fivefingers could have saved a dozen families! The kettlebells in the corner could have saved a small town! The jug of raw milk could have saved a classroom full of children!"

Beth@WeightMaven said...

Is Aragon really "highly respected" among the community? Maybe he is, I tend to not read that space as closely, but I do recall Martin Berkhan flipping out recently regards to a spat with Lyle McDonald and Aragon seemed to get some collateral damage. But his presentation looks pretty meaty (no pun intended!). Looking forward to digging through it.

carbsane said...

Please tell me this isn't a serious comment.

carbsane said...

Alan "brings it" with his research review. The community chooses to show respect for various things and I tend to not pay attention to any of it. I look at quality of content.

Beth@WeightMaven said...

Yep, but when you say he's a "highly respected" author, I presume you mean by more than just you ;).

carbsane said...

I think as author of AARR he is highly respected, or widely respected. That's the impression I always got anyway. Maybe I'm wrong about how others view him. I don't know all of the back stories with a lot of these folks. From what I know of Lyle he too is respected for his work, but in his case not well liked from what I can gather.

markgillespie said...

Alan's stuff is spot on. I always recommend to people to read Alan, Lyle, James Krieger and Evelyn. All four of them no hype, no BS, just pure reference to the scientific literature.

Scott Peterson said...

Best comment of 2013 right here, hands down.

carbsane said...

My sense of humor was still out to lunch with my first response :D

carbsane said...

Aw thanks Mark!

Sanjeev Sharma said...

LOL

> he will always be Paleo Jesus

every time you eat whole wheat, Paleo Jesus dies a little?

WWPJD? LOL

Sue Staltari said...

I thought nightshades banned for only those that need to. Salt and coffee not banned on paleo.

carbsane said...

Yeah, coffee was paleo :D

carbsane said...

Some versions (Cordain, Frasetto) are low salt (sodium) high potassium. Robb's version doesn't specify limits. He does speak of a pretty serious coffee addiction, however.

carbsane said...

You noticed that too? :D

Nigel Kinbrum said...

That's not correct. Things started to go downhill rapidly from 1875 onwards. See How the Mid-Victorians Worked, Ate and Died.

Screennamerequired said...

LOL

John smith = Unknown?

Sanjeev Sharma said...

reminded me of the old lawyer's saw:

> If events are on your side pound on the events

> If the law's on your side, pound on the law

> If none of that is on your side, pound the table

listening to that audio, more than half the time I couldn't even figure out what Robb thought he was pounding.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Yeah, that's just drama over technique allegiances between Lyle and Berkhan. It's largely a conflict of ego, with Aragon getting dragged into the mess to possibly mediate the matter. These guys know their stuff; Lyle is highly informative and been around for a good while, but the whole fiasco is pathetically primadonic. A real shame since they all bring credible research and arguments to the table.

Also, there is little doubt that Aragon is held in high regard within the body building and sports nutrition community. Although I'd love to see some of the sugar loving anti-PUFA orthorexics comment on his view of PUFAs when they conveniently reference him--ad nauseum--for their pro-sugar arguments.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I'd agree. They're both highly respected. Lyle has a reputation, however, for being an unapologetic abrasive grouch; some chose to look past that internet mask while others take it personally.

carbsane said...

sugar loving orthorexics? Isn't that kindof an oxymoron?

carbsane said...

Excellent!!

Dan Burke said...

I haven't gone through Alan's presentation in great detail, however; from what I have read it seems he is as guilty as the larger paleo community towards cherry picking certain ideas or misrepresenting data. I am not a proponent of paleo and I do find it an interesting idea, but I'd call this presentation to the same grade, or to the same degree of credibility, as Cordains first book. He has cherry picked ideas that are not considered arguments for paleo, ie diet acidity (slide 26), since the original Cordain book it has been shown to be incorrect and not supported by their movement's 'leaders'. Or when he goes to explain the contradiction between paleo supporting a better omega 6/3 ratio but still advocating coconut oil, or a variety of nuts and seeds, as an argument against the diet (slide 36). In actual fact, from what I've seen and read towards paleo, they've always inclined towards the eat nuts and seeds sparingly due to these issues and the whole concept behind olive or coconut oil is to minimize total PUFAs due to oxidative stress. To be fair, I had a lot of skepticism towards reading this after on one of the first few pages he implied that peanuts are in fact nuts.

Now, to that effect, the paleo diet does a fantastic job of cherry picking the ideas. My whole issue with this is, how can you criticize this, using the same methodology they used to support it. In my mind, both parties are not credible.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I was referring to 'some of them', meaning a sub-set. Also, wasn't there an anti-PUFA aspect to my statement as well? I'll play.


Yes, That would be an oxymoron if one has a bias and chooses to wilfully ignore, or somehow manages to completely miss out on the obvious elements of orthorexia within a sub-set of the sugar pushers--no PUFA; watch out for all those toxins; starch is a cortisol promoter; etcetera. Travis wrote an excellent post in defence of linoleic acid and made reference to this very subset.


http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=588



^ That is. . . rather depressing. Oxymoron? Hardly.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Not at all, and I've posted a comment that is worth consideration but it's awaiting moderation. I welcome your feedback.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I don't know about how respected he is, I just go by his writings.

It seems he takes great care to eliminate biases and stick to high quality evidence where it's available.

I've never read excessive flights of fancy and logical fallacies from AA

Whenever he uses one of the horsemen of scientific apocalypse - reductionism, observational and anecdotal evidence it's as a minor point and specifically set pointed out as deficient.

I've not read Alan (like Lyle) use a rat/mouse study or isolated biochemical studies to support their human diet recommendations, even when the conclusions of a rat study support their recommendations.

I don't recall ever reading a logical fallacy from them either.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

Maybe Kade's talking about those who do "orthorexia du jour"? (cough)Danny Roddy(cough)

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

It is by virtue of the observations that you've made that he--and Lyle--are well respected in that particular scene.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Hammer, meet nail. Now I just wait for my comment to get published.

Alan Aragon said...

Dan Burke -- Cordain indeed has railed against dairy (cheese in particular) as being one of the highest acid-producing foods, and he frames this in the context of calcium excretion & adverse effect on bone health: http://thepaleodiet.com/acidbase-balance/
As for your other criticism about n-6:3 ratio, re-read the slide again, I made my point pretty clear. You admitted you didn't read the presentation carefully, so I'd suggest you do just that.

General note: this slide presentation was designed not to be a comprehensive essay, but rather a detailed set of lecture notes. Any gaps or apparent simplifications could be easily filled via in-person discussion. The PPT presentation merely grazes a rather broad range of topics. I had no idea the NSCA would even release it to the public.

Evelyn -- Your work is always appreciated & I love seeing dogma challenged in your blunt, uncompromising style.

All -- Thanks for the feedback & I'm glad you enjoyed the material.

Melissa said...

Depends on what book you cherry pick. Wheat Belly contains the diet acidity argument. Nell Stephanson, "paleo expert" who works with Cordain, still writes about it often on her blog and in Cordain's pretty recent cookbook.

A lot of paleo cookbooks I'm sent contain a large amount of O6 PUFA-rich recipes.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I don't see a consistent bias that would motivate cherry picking, just a consistent effort to go with the bulk of the evidence, pointing out weak forms of evidence and stronger forms (controlled trials) where appropriate.

In a bunch of places he points to studies that are pro-, anti- and neutral to both "sides", so I'm not seeing the consistency part, and along with that the cherry picking claim looks dubious.

brontide said...

"By the mid-16th century, life expectancy had risen to the mid-30s, on average, with substantial fluctuation from period to period. At the beginning of the 19th century life expectancy was about 37 years. A steady advance begins at the turn of the 19th century and accelerates after about 1875. After
the 1860s, there is no period in which life expectancy actually declines from one period to the next.

Thus far in the 20th century, life expectancy has increased by 24 years in Sweden and by 27 years in England and Wales, typical gains for Western European countries. Italian life expectancy has gone up by 32 years, from 43 to 75, and Czechoslovakian life expectancy has increased by 31 years, from 40 to 71. U.S. life expectancy, although not as well documented as Europe's, has mirrored the European increases." - "The State of Humanity," edited by Julian Simon, 1995.


Soooo.. we still have a myth of the bad modern food.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

"Life expectancy" is meaningless if it includes infant mortality. Did you even bother to read the study in the link I provided?

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Screennamerequired said...

I'm waiting for Jimmy and others to come out with an "all these markers are irreverent if your in the magic bulletproof keto-adapted shield of armor". I think that's all he has left at this stage because I don't see his LDL coming down to those levels on his crazy diet. "Don't fear saturated fat" is kind of central to his business, imo. So unless he drastically cuts his saturated fat secretly to bring his LDL I don't see what he's going to do.

carbsane said...

I'm not really up on all of the Peat stuff but I had just contributed to a discussion about sugar when I read and responded to your comment. Most of the "sugar lovers" I know are hardly orthorexic. Yeah, "approved fruit" is rather depressing.

carbsane said...

I do not see any other comments in the cue Kade. :(

carbsane said...

Nice of you to drop by Alan, thanks! I hope most reading it realized those were just slides for a presentation and not a book or comprehensive paper.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Good whole fruits--even the sweetest high GI kind--can be a large source of calories in diet for those who're in decent health. In my opinion, even the fruitarians who run into peculiar health problems are largely suffering from some form of chronic deficiencies or absorption issues that their cooked-vegan counterparts tend to avoid.

The Peat stuff is worth looking into and personally, I like to draw a distinction between what I've heard from him directly through e-mail, and what his web following, which is diverse even as a sub-set, tends to obsesses over. Now perhaps there's some hidden and incidental merit to the list, but I just find it absurd that one's in a state of health where eating whole fruit with a few seeds is actually going to create problems and cause endotexmia, etcetera. It seems that individuals with an extremely polarised mindset can project orthorexia onto pretty much any dietary concept.

carbsane said...

Hi Dan,

It's odd to make any accusations of this sort when you admit you haven't really expended the skull sweat to go through the presentation. First, as Alan commented below, it was a presentation and I don't see where any such effort needs be all encompassing. Keep in mind that most of the general public considers peanuts to be nuts, which is how I read his slide on the modern adaptation of the paleo diet to include "nuts (except peanuts)". FWIW, I analyzed Mark Sisson's PUFA a couple of years ago -- http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/04/pufas-primal-blueprint-and-low-carb.html -- and I think Alan makes an excellent point with that slide. There's a paleo infographic out there that still advocates walnuts for O3's.

As to the acid base thing, who gets to decide who speaks for paleo these days? There is even an alkaline paleo diet, and one of the peer review paleo diet studies was headed by Lynda Frasetto. She is big on this issue: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/76/6/1308.full.pdf (more at the end of this comment).


The problem paleo is having with the criticism of the diet is their own failure to even define a consistent one or a set of premises.

--------------------------------------------------------

http://diabetesdietdialogue.wordpress.com/2007/05/19/acid-to-alkaline-the-ph-path-to-health/ "The Truth – according to Dr Lynda Frassetto, an acid – alkaline researcher from the University of California, is that “we have been forced to turn an evolutionary corner”.Our bodies are so overwhelmed with cellular acid-waste that “We simply do not handle acid waste the way we used to.”This is an awesome statement. What does this mean to you?

Her research, on 1,000 people, shows the huge volume of acid waste which our body is expected “to handle” has instead forced it to take ‘war’ style, drastic action to preserve its strategic mineral reserves – and wisely protect the abilities and cell safety of our kidneys and liver – our major essential detoxifying organs.

Frasetto found we are now ‘stock piling’ acid in fatty deposits rather than eliminating it via the kidneys and liver. This fat-cell enlargement is called “obesity”, but that term hides the real cause and the real source of distress and obscures the real road to Cure.

Increased tissue acid-deposits engender:

___ Obesity
___ Lowered immunity
___ Lack of energy (this may be the real source of “Chronic Fatigue” Syndrome)
___ Other acid-related “named” dis-eases including cancer, diabetes, osteoarthritis, clotting problems, athrosclerosis (hardening of arteries) and many, many more."

Nigel Kinbrum said...

"Lyle has a reputation, however, for being an unapologetic abrasive grouch" That made me lol.

brontide said...

You mean the one that says exactly what I said before, that it's inactivty that is the primary cause of our health issues today.

"Most of this research is patently a waste of time. Current generations are, from an historical point of view, anomalous. Our historically low levels of physical activity and consequently food intakes mean that even those groups consuming the highest levels of berry fruits, green leaf vegetables or oily fish, are still well below optimal (mid-Victorian) levels of consumption."

And the primary author has this little tidbit as well "Notwithstanding, there is now a considerable body of evidence that when it comes to most illness, it’s your lifestyle stupid."

Of course this paper is done by a nutritionist Paul Claton, who pushes a wide variety of suppliments to cure all of mankinds ills, and Judith Rowbotham, a historian. They clearly jump to conclusions and theories that are not directly supported by their data even if you take it at full face value. It's clear from reading up on Paul that he has a specific worldview and took a very narrow historical view, without a critical lens, to prove a point that has little or no firm underpinnings.

brontide said...

Ok specifically I will call out the paper on the "uncommon causes of death". Listed are CAD and cancer. This is intellectually dishonest since the average lifespan was half of what it is today. You can twist it around all you want, but without adjusting for life expectancy if not the lack of mortuary science as well it is impossible to make those comparisons. The basic fact of the matter is that the levels of CAD and cancer in a society are HIGHLY correlated to lifespan since they are degenerative disorders. This is double true since the author excludes heart attacks since there is little way to differentiate from deaths from rheumatic fever which is very convenient for his thesis.



Really there is not a single part of the paper that does not come across as cherry picked with an unsubstantiated nutritional theory as evidence for how it occurred.

Karin said...

I love the Paleo Violation Royale. I had no idea Greek food was so evil!

Actually the plate in the picture looks quite scrumptious, and to my eye not at all unhealthy. Wishing I had more access to Greek food out here in the sticks where I live.

Mirta Schultz said...

When he turns jars of tap water into purified sulfite-free organic Paleo wine, I'm gonna get my sandals and jump on board.

garymar said...

I'll give up my Bulletproof Coffee™ when you pry it from my cold-adapted hands!

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I've been waiting if anyone else would mention it but looks like I'm the only one whose ears were tweaked by Robb's use of this:

http://www.skepticblog.org/2012/11/08/argumentum-ad-monsantium/

I wrote down the time he used it but tossed the sheet in the recycling ; (

Although personally I think it should be called argumentum ad monSATAN, so we can recycle all our dyslexia satan/Santa jokes.

Mike T said...

I'm all for questioning orthodoxy, but this is pretty weak and maybe not even enough to warrant a blog post. You seem to have 3 criticisms of Robb's podcast: (1) He didn't review Aragon's work enough to properly critique it (2) He didn't mention Aiello and (3) He has the article "the" in the title of his book. He readily admits to #1 in his podcast as you noted, so it's not as if he is trying to mislead and he says he will look into it more deeply. For #2, I'll admit I'm not a researcher, but it seems that some of the value in putting a book together is to weed through all the information out there and present what the author believes is relevant. A book that cites everything seems like it would be less useful (e.g., like a search engine that returns every result instead of the most relevant results). For #3, I'm not in the publishing industry, but I think there is a lot that goes into choosing a title, and reading into a title too much is probably a mistake. Anyway, you may be making some valid points, but this certainly doesn't feel like any sort of nail in the coffin of Robb Wolf. Though, I'm not sure if you intended it to be.

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carbsane said...

Not even enough to warrant a blog post? I'd say if it gets anyone to read Alan's slides and/or listen to Robb's response to Warinner, it was worth the time. Christina Warinner hit a nerve in the paleo community and the publication of Alan's presentation was good timing since Robb thought to specifically address him. If the paleo movement thinks vulgarity and smears and portraying any and all critics as ignorant (as Robb did in the two blog posts preceding the podcast) is the way to promote the diet, I think they are sadly mistaken.

As to the book titles, that's also part of Warinner's (and others') point. You can't sensationalize on the cover to sell books and then whine when folks view your diet as a fad. Paleo™ is THE only way to eat, just don't ask me to define it? If paleo were based on sound science vs. the house of cards the big boys standing on top wouldn't feel so shaky and insecure.

carbsane said...

Just eat your Paleologix and you won't need any of that unhealthy food Karin!

carbsane said...

BTW, I'm trying to find Aiello's work with Aboriginals with no luck. My guess is that her work involved a traditional diet aka an ancestral diet, but not a paleolithic diet. One that likely included legumes.

carbsane said...

Yeah I caught that.

"You know, that’s just a piece of it. I guess in closing, you know, there are certain assumptions again that we’ve made about the paleo diet that have – or you know, our arguments for it that our genetics are identical, they’re not identical. We seem to be under a period of intense stress because we seem to be experiencing very, very high rates of mutation and change, which maybe is good, maybe is bad. I mean interestingly when our species was almost became extinct about 100,000 years ago, 70,000 years ago, we were down to about 10,000 members of the species there was huge genetic reshuffling at that time because of the stresses put on the species. So maybe it’s a good thing. Who knows? Maybe we’ll evolve into the ability to survive eating Twinkies and all the Monsanto genetically modified food and all the rest of that stuff."



On a related note, we were down to 10K humans about 70K years ago. Our species made a comeback....

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I've read much lower estimates based on mitochondrial DNA evidence - all modern humans have one female ancestor.

That doesn't mean there was one human-ancestor female at one point in time, just that one female's descendants mated across the poplulation such that her mitochondrial DNA ends up in every modern human.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

"That made me lol."

A lot of what Lyle does over Facebook has contributed to the lol-pool in the bodybuilding community. I think it's great stuff, and he knows what he's talking about.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

You're still including infant mortality in your "average lifespan" calculations. Therefore, your argument is still invalid.

Vaclav Knedliky said...

Oh boy, JimKKKins Moore, trolling Sam's Club.
I wonder if he stood outside, handing out leaflets and preaching to sugar burners?

"Here's the scoop about what happened at Sam's Club getting tested. The girl in front of me showed a body fat of 39.7 and had incredibly high blood pressure (something like 180/120), but her blood sugar was 85 and total cholesterol was 140. The nurse exclaimed, "Wow, you are so healthy because your cholesterol needs to be under 200." The girl said, "I have naturally low cholesterol" and the nurse retorted, "Yes, the less of that stuff you have in your body the better." OMG!

When it came my turn to have my blood tested for total cholesterol (which, for the record, is really a totally meaningless marker for anything about your health--something I'm writing a lot about in my CHOLESTEROL CLARITY book), the nurse was jovial in her conversation with me looking so healthy...that is, until she saw my total cholesterol was 322! The look on her face was priceless. She became quite somber and asked me if I was feeling okay and if I was doing anything about my "high cholesterol." I explained to her that when I had the total cholesterol run six months ago it was over 400. "Oh, you must be taking a medication to bring it down," she assumed. I told her I refuse to take any medications like statins because they are more harmful than helpful. She nervously wished me well and sent me on my merry way. Isn't it funny how she thought I was healthy from observing me but a number on a machine totally changed her mind about my state of health? Man oh man, I can't wait to get my book out there to better educate people on this topic."

Sanjeev Sharma said...

some things stupefy enough to make facepalming inadequate in extremis.

Is it possible to facepalm WITH A TON OF EXCLAMATION MARKS !!! ?

Bris vegas said...

The only "highly respected" people in nutrition are (full) Professors at major universities. The rest are self-opinionated nobodies.

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carbsane said...

LOL! He has time to take off from writing his book to make up stories. I wonder what these people think if this actually ever happens.

carbsane said...

So, Robb Wolf is a self-opinionated nobody. Good to know {evil grin}

brontide said...

*SMH* It's amazing how blinded you are with a SINGLE, poorly constructed, historical retrospective done by an obviously biased researcher.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

It's also amazing how you're still avoiding the issue of "average lifespan" being drastically reduced by sky-high infant mortality (due to poor hygiene, lack of antibiotics etc).

Carry on smacking your head. It might increase your intelligence (but I doubt it).

brontide said...

I still find it amusing that the various groups fight about the ancestral diet(s) are missing the bigger picture. Meat, agriculture, fruit, or starches if we analyze the various cultures we will find healthy outcomes from all sorts of cultures where the only common thread is the dissimilar nature of their diets. People keep looking for the magic pill in the diet choices when there is none; "ancestral/non-modern" diets worked because they were calorically and lifestyle self-limiting. Paleo might work as in terms of satiety for some, but it is neither a perfect diet nor a cure-all as is being promoted by many.


You can not talk diet and claim to be talking about health; it can only be evaluated in a larger discussion about lifestyle and balance.

Woodey said...

I hear he fills up his bathtub on a daily basis and walks across it.

carbsane said...

:-)

carbsane said...

BTW Dan, if you're still around, this just came across the "wire" at paleobuzz: http://paleodietlifestyle.com/acid-alkaline-balance-paleo/

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