Two Paleo Diets from Lindeberg's Group

Here's another paleo diet study:  Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study   It's from Lindeberg's research group but I'll refer to this one as Jonsson (lead author) to distinguish it from the others.  
In a randomized cross-over study, 13 patients with type 2 diabetes, 3 women and 10 men, were instructed to eat a Paleolithic diet based on lean meat, fish, fruits, vegetables, root vegetables, eggs and nuts; and a Diabetes diet designed in accordance with dietary guidelines during two consecutive 3-month periods.   ... Study participants had on average a diabetes duration of 9 years, a mean HbA1c of 6,6% units by MonoS standard and were usually treated with metformin alone (3 subjects) or metformin in combination with a sulfonylurea (3 subjects) or a thiazolidinedione (3 subjects). Mean average dose of metformin was 1031 mg per day.
The paleo diet outperformed the diabetes diet, but that is not the purpose of this post, rather to show the composition of the paleo diet tested and add it to my summary table of same.  Here are the diets compared. As with Lindeberg before this, we have a significant caloric difference between the tested diets that makes comparison difficult.

I would note that while this is a higher fat diet by percentage, at 39% we really are talking about the SAD in practice.  However at the caloric levels we're talking, the absolute fat intake amounted to 68 g (vs. 72g for Dia) while the saturated fat intake was only 19 g (vs. 27 g for Dia) which amounted to only 11% of total calories -- close to the standard target for conventional LF diets.  

At right are the foods for just the paleo diet.   The one thing that stands out to me (and this is a recurring theme) is that there is higher fruit consumption than we hear even recommended by most of the popular paleo diet plans that tend to favor non-starchy veggies.  Also, the veggies included root veg (other than potatoes) such as carrots.  To me, the total meat consumption amounts is less than expected totalling roughly 8 oz., with about 3.5 oz of fish which isn't a whole lot when compared to what we're told many paleos eat.  
Below is the expanded summary table of paleo diets.  

I don't think I've ever posted the diets from the Lindeberg studies ... or rather study.   There are two fairly frequently cited papers from data that came from a single dietary clinical trial:   A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease  and  A paleolithic diet is more satiating per calorie than a mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischemic heart disease.  Thus both "Lindeberg" in the above table.  Below are the diet breakdowns and foods.  I note they are (expectedly) quite similar to the study above, though this trial was the lowest fat diet of them all, both by percent (28%) and absolute intake (a mere 42 g total, 13 g sat fat).   Also we see the relatively large fruit intake and smaller than expected meat and fish consumption (as well as calories).


Charles Grashow said…
When did paleo morph from lean meat, fruits and veggies to fatty meat, no fruit and chocolate covered bacon? Read the original papers by Cordain and Eaton

When did "paleo" COMPLETELY ignore ultra high LDL-C levels?

Remember this

Optimal low-density lipoprotein is 50 to 70 mg/dl
Lower is better and physiologically normal

James H O'Keefe, Jr, MD; Loren Cordain, PhD; William H Harris, PhD; Richard M Moe, MD, PhD; Robert Vogel, MD

"We live in a world very different from that for which we are genetically adapted. Profound changes in our environment began with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry 10,000 years ago, too recent on an evolutionary time scale for the human genome to adjust. As a result of this ever-worsening discordance between our ancient genetically determined biology and the nutritional, cultural, and activity patterns in modern populations, many of the so-called diseases of civilization, including atherosclerosis, have emerged. Evidence from hunter-gatherer populations while they were still following their indigenous lifestyles showed no evidence for atherosclerosis, even in individuals living into the seventh and eighth decades of life (15- 16). These populations had total cholesterol levels of 100 to 150 mg/dl with estimated LDL cholesterol levels of about 50 to 75 mg/dl. The LDL levels of healthy neonates are even today in the 30 to 70 mg/dl range. Healthy, wild, adult primates show LDL levels of approximately 40 to 80 mg/dl (17). In fact, modern humans are the only adult mammals, excluding some domesticated animals, with a mean LDL level over 80 mg/dl and a total cholesterol over 160 mg/dl (15- 16) (Figure 1). Thus, although an LDL level of 50 to 70 mg/dl seems excessively low by modern American standards, it is precisely the normal range for individuals living the lifestyle and eating the diet for which we are genetically adapted."

Show me a paper authored by Cordain that repudiates these statements.

Wiliam "Wheat Belly" Davis - who most people in the paleosphere love

In this, the third post on the "Rule of 60," we now turn to ways to reduce LDL cholesterol towards 60 mg/dl.

SO - Dr Davis is an advocate of lowering LDL-C to around 60mg/dl - How come NO ONE EVER mentions this?

Has he changed his position - does he now advocate that LDL levels of >300mg/dl (ala Jimmy Moore) are now no longer a problem??

This is what REALLY PISSES me off

Robb Wolf takes part in a study where statin drugs are used to reduce LDL-P. How come NO ONE has attacked him for using these "deadly" drugs??
marksuave25 said…
I would be slightly worried. in one of your links, the people on the paleo diet actually had their cholesterol levels go up even as they lost weight. Strange.
Charles Grashow said…
I have to explore this further

My doctor started me on Armour a few weeks ago - 1/2 grain (30 mgs) per day - increasing by 1/2 grain per week until I get to 2 grains per day - will have blood tests on 6/17 - I'll try to get a full lipid panel done sometime in July - will be interested to see if the levels change
Vaclav Knedliky said…
This comment below from someone claiming to be Robb Wolf from the CSR blog.

I wonder if Robb is fine with LDL-P north of 2000?

What science is he talking about? Bro? LMAO

"Folks like Dr. Thomas Dayspring and Dr. Tara Dall of the National Lipid Association certainly see this and have offered very specific guidelines when we should not just default, but run to a ketogenic/LC diet. If the individual shows A1C above 6.5 and trig's above 200 we have significant pancreatic beta cell damage. We are now looking at a situation akin to the spiral-down of the honeymoon phase of type 1 diabetes. Ie. a limited run of any type of endogenous insulin production.


Dramatically limit carbs, reestablish the neuroregualtion of appetite (unless someone is too impulsive to live within these constraints...) get the body fat down and activity level up. This approach saves lives. Well, so long as people are aware it is an option.

That Evelyn cannot make heads or tails of the science is kind of pathetic at this point. But the fact her broken psyche does not allow her to STFU and take a powder when the big kids are talking about things that they actually do for a day job...I'm not really sure HOW to categorize that."
Susanne said…
I wonder why they don't just adopt some more neutral term in their studies like "no-grain" diet rather than "Paleolithic," that term just isn't standardized enough unless it's one of the copyrighted/branded ones. I guess Paleolithic sounds cooler. And I don't recall offhand if there is one standardized "Mediterranean" therapeutic diet either, that's why you end up with people saying "But there's so much variation in the Mediterranean and Italian pasta yada yada" when in the original studies the longevity diet was nearly always a localized to a Cretan/Greek islanders early 20th-century one.

In the last chart, what makes up "sweet beverages excluding juice"? If it's sweetened sodas, how is that part of a recommended diabetes or Mediterranean diet? Makes me wonder how the directions and advice differed between the two groups.

I'm also intrigued by the "bakery" and alcohol entries in the first chart for the Paleolithic diet foods. Have to read that paper too. Anyone know offhand what the "official" positions are on booze among the different ancestral gurus? I know Mark Sisson's includes wine but I think that's the 20% outside allowance rather than on the approved list. What is the low-carber position on alcohol?
carbsane said…
Yeah, the "Stone Age diet" is strange to see in peer review literature. In the diet trials that have tested diets, they quite often mention a specific one: e.g. even if Atkins is not mentioned in the title, the methods section will often state that the diet prescribed was Atkins or based on the diet in XX book, etc. I think those little bits of pastry and stuff are what was reported to be consumed not necessarily what was prescribed -- little cheats here and there. I will note that nobody reported eating butter in the Lindeberg study! As to alcohol, all I can say is that it flowed freely at the "paleo party" in Austin, and not just wine. Low carbers tend to allow alcohol too though nothing shuts down "fat burning" more quickly. There are "wine apologist" pages to be found that claim the carbs in dry wine aren't even real carbs!

Paleo certainly suffers the same problems as Mediterranean in that there is no standard definition. Which I would note is evident in Lindeberg as the relatively high dairy intake is not typical of most Medtn diets.
carbsane said…
Lovely commenting on a stalker blog like that?! That is Robb, it's the same blogger profile he posted with here once when I wrote this: (comments still not imported :( ) -- apparently it hit home even though I named nobody other than Taubes in that post.

If Robb believed his own schtick, he'd promote the diet used in these studies which was Loren Cordain's original diet. People cringed at canola oil being used in Ryberg when that was in Cordain's original. He has changed his stance on both canola and sat fats so the original page I once read is no longer there. However Cordain was more interested in recreating the macro/micro profile of the paleo diet with modern foods than trying to mimic the foods that were available to paleo man. At least around the time I started blogging in 2010.
Jane said…
Charles, the links you give are often very interesting. But I am puzzled to hear you have low thyroid. Might I ask about your diet please? Sorry if you've described it before and I missed it.
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Charles Grashow said…
I'm on doctor prescribed testosterone replacement therapy - 100mgs injected subQ every 7 days

Blood was drawn 2/25/13

TSH - 1.44 Reference Range 0.34 - 4.82 ulU/mL
Free T4 - 1.10 Reference Range 0.77 - 1.60 ng/dL
FT3 - 3.4 Reference Range 2.1 - 4.0 pg/ml

Reverse T3 - 336 Reference Range 90-350 pg/mL

As to my diet - I stopped eating meat about 2 months ago (just lost the taste for it) so I'm now eating pastured eggs, grass fed butter, raw sprouted nuts and seeds, full fat yogurt, a lot of fresh/frozen fruit, potatoes, whey protein isolate in my smoothies, 100% dark chocolate or 100% organic cacao powder, organic pasta sauce (on my eggs), avocados
Charles Grashow said…

Tara L Dall serves on the speaker bureaus for Abbott, GlaxoSmithKline, LipoScience, Merck Schering Plough, Takeda, and Santarus

"In patients with insulin resistance as the core etiology of dyslipidemia, weight loss, increased exercise, and lower carbohydrate diets will also favorably decrease LDL-P."

Jimmy Moore - LDL-P 3451, Small LDL-P 221, TC 359, LDL-C 285, HDL-C 65, Trigs 46 (NMR Panel done on 10/25/12)

What would Dr Dall say about that??
Screennamerequired said…
It's crazy isn't it? If you listen to the modern high fat/buttered
coffee paleo dieters they'll try to tell you Ldl is rather meaningless
if you have high HLD/low trigs + low inflammation.

They'll also try to convince you that low cholesterol and low LDL is dangerous
and increases mortality. They all seem to support Sisson and Attia about
the importance of LDL-P, though I have yet to see any paleo/primal/low
carbers with a high LDL yet low LDL-p. The only one who has a LDL under
1000 is Peter attia, but he has a LDL of under 70, so he seems to be the
exception rather than the norm in paleoland.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Oh, no! I will stop eating red meat as of today. The previous sentence may contain irony.
typeonepointfive said…
Lindeberg has commented on this study here:
Vaclav Knedliky said…
I attempted to read Cordain's book during my VLC days, about half way through dismissed it as low fat nonsense. Charles question is spot on. Who converted Paleo in to a high fat diet ?
carbsane said…
I'm a bit bogged down at the moment. I expect this will be heavily commented on about the web. I'm not a big red meat eater (though I do enjoy a good steak from time to time!) so even if there's anything to this, it doesn't really change anything for me.
carbsane said…
Well, Dayspring has already weighed in. Interesting how someone like Dall -- with serious ties to "Big Pharma" -- is being touted by Robb. Not that that necessarily disqualifies someone, but the fact of the matter is, the Reno FR program is pretty close to standard treatment it would seem, and if the only difference is that trigs go down a little more with a bit lower dose of medication it remains to be seen if this translates to ACTUAL change in outcome and all these billions saved in costs. Which is not to say there's not merit there, but the overreaction to a simple question probably says a lot more than Robb is ...
carbsane said…
Haven't listened yet, but
Diana Moon said…
That is a pretty darned low caloric intake on the Lindberg study. Nobody was eating more than 1900 cals a day, and some as low as 1300. Hell, even I could lose weight on that.
Sue Staltari said…
Started listening but didn't have time. Cordain was always anti-saturated fat and disagreed with his friend Eades who was pro-saturated fat. Cordain eventually changed his stance I believe.
Vaclav Knedliky said…
JimKKKins Nutty K update.

"That now gives me a TOTAL WEIGHT LOSS OF 75.2 POUNDS in eleven months. If I reach 80 pounds lost by the time I update you next following the Low-Carb Cruise, then I’ll be happy with that as a nice one-year weight loss total. As you know, this experiment has not focused on weight loss as a primary goal. Sure, it’s a nice side effect and I’ll take it, but I’m much more interested in hunger and craving control, improving inflammation and lipid numbers, blood sugar control and how I look, feel and perform being in a keto-adapted state. It was encouraging to meet so many fantastic people at PaleoFX who said they have been inspired by my NK journey and I look forward to continuing on this adventure in the months and years to come. Now let’s look at my blood sugar levels in Day 301-330 starting with the AM readings:"

"has not focused on weight loss" what a liar.
Vaclav Knedliky said…
Wow, I listened , Cordain is full of it. He dismisses Zuk as a bird/insect doctor who is uninformed and doesn't understand the science. LOL
Charles Grashow said…
Improving his lipid numbers??? He must be joking - his lipid numbers have gotten WORSE not better - His LDL-P and his ApoB numbers are EXTREMELY dangerous to his health yet he chooses to IGNORE them.

Look at ahis blood sugar levels - all over the place EVEN with berberine - blame it on his less than 3 day fast - he has an excuse for everything

"What’s next? I would like to have another NMR Lipoprofile test run to see what’s going on with my LDL particles and particle size. A very generous fan of my work paid for me to have genetic testing of my DNA to see if I have familial hypercholesterolemia or not. I don’t think I do, but the test results due in on April 15, 2013 will confirm or deny. Stay tuned! Another wonderful reader has agreed to pay the costs to have my hair tested for minerals. I’m currently letting it grow out to the required 1 to 1 1/2 inches for the test and will scalp the back of my head to do this test. It may not be long enough until mid-May, but I look forward to see the results from this test when I can get it done. I’m still very interested in doing more testing in the coming months, so let me know what you’d like to see me have done. And if you would like to contribute towards helping me run more health tests in the coming months, then feel free to e-mail me what tests you would like to see along with making a donation towards this effort through PayPal.

Hair analysis - OMG - This man is a WHORE!! He will have ANY test done if someone pays for it. I sense some serious psychological problems here.

Now that he is down to 231 what next - how will he shift over to maintenance?
Diana Moon said…
I've heard that red meat consumption prevents irony deficiency disease.
Charles Grashow said…

“We look at Body Mass Index, blood pressure, smoking history. We look at a basic lipid panel. We look at sugars. We do a metabolic syndrome calculation,” said Dr. James Greenwald, with Specialty Health. If there is a suggestion of increased risk, Greenwald said, physicians look further with something called “advanced lipid testing.”

Dr. Tara Dall, a Wisconsin-based lipidologist who is working on the Reno project, said it is very important to test for the right things. Many at-risk individuals are missed because of improper tests, she said.

“Half of all people who have cardiovascular events have normal cholesterol levels,” said Dall, who recommends checking lipoproteins, the particles in blood that carry cholesterol and triglycerides. She said it’s not the passengers (the cholesterol), it’s the cars (the particle number) that is most important.

“It’s the (lipoproteins) that really define risk,” said Dall, adding that lipids give a window into diabetes because they began to change long before sugar levels get elevated.

The first behavioral change is diet. Specialty Health prescribes a “Paelo” low-carb diet – with basic foods and nothing processed.

“Certain foods make you sick,” said science journalist Gary Taubes. “If you don’t eat them you won’t be sick, you won’t be fat, you won’t be pre-diabetic, or diabetic, you won’t get heart disease.”

Exercise is another important consideration when treating insulin resistance. Exercise raises the HDL (good) cholesterol and promotes insulin sensitivity in muscle.

Weight loss, even just 5% of body weight, can have a significant impact on metabolism – especially dangerous belly fat.

And in some cases, Specialty Health prescribes medication, such as Metformin, which promotes insulin sensitivity and fights the progression of insulin resistance and/or the development of Type 2 diabetes."

Notice there is NO mention of statin drugs in this article!!

SO - according to Dr Dall high LDL-P is a precursor to diabetes!!

My oh my what will Jimmy say/do?? How do you reduce LDL-P while on a very high saturated diet??

Dr Dayspring told JM to REDUCE his saturated fat intake IMMEDIATELY and if his LDL-P doesn't drop start on a statin regimen. After all even Robb Wolf uses statins now.
Vaclav Knedliky said…
"A very generous fan of my work" LOL

Here's a new name for the movement. PayPaleo !
Jane Karlsson said…
Thanks Charles. I wrote a long reply and it vanished. The gist of it was that low thyroid and low testosterone can both be due to copper deficiency, which also causes hypercholesterolemia. Since copper deficiency can be induced by a high iron diet, you may find things get better now you aren't eating meat.

The people who work on copper believe most of us have copper deficiency, in startling contrast to the UK Dept of Health which told me in a letter 'copper deficiency is rare'. The RDA for copper in the US was recently set at a level found by Klevay to cause symptoms of heart disease in volunteers. Too low. It means millions of people have copper deficiency and think they don't.
carbsane said…
Sorry about that Jane -- maybe it went into the ether right when the comments finally imported? Don't know. Hopefully was a one time snafu
carbsane said…
Listened to a little bit, maybe more later. I laughed at his boasting how now all of these anthropologists and such are taking it seriously.
carbsane said…
Wonder what happens if Attia stops working out 3 hrs a day?! Might be the only reason he's not like the rest.

The interesting thing is that Specialty Health is looking at those with hidden risk -- normal to marginally high LDL but high particle number. This would ADD to the mainstream advocacy for statins. :(
carbsane said…
FH is something that doesn't just develop at age 35 or so. Jimmy had near normal cholesterol at that time (though he may well have been like the two case studies from Wolf's Reno stuff and had high particle numbers. I imagine he probably did but clearly his diet is making matters worse if there is anything to this stuff. I tend to think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For example, with fasting blood glucose, 100 is now prediabetic, when in one Rosedale's favorite citations the all cause mortality was lowest for FBG right around there (98 or 99 if memory serves). But off-the-chart stuff like Jimmy's? Something is not right there, and he needs berberine to keep his FBG in check? Sigh.
carbsane said…
Yeah right -- the weight loss is a nice "side effect" of his improved health. His lipids have gotten worse, he needs berberine to manage his fasting glucose levels, he has oxalate crystals and protein in his urine and he couldn't last 72 hours without food despite being superhumanly ketoadapted and uberhealthy in 2013 when he did last quite fine for 6 days back in 2011.
carbsane said…
There it is!! At Charles' link is a video showing the firefighters (or cops) chopping lettuce and bringing over a large tray with what looks like teh ebil boneless/skinless chicken breast. I remember being linked to that from somewhere last year. So salad, broccoli and SBchix. This is not the stick of butter crowd.
Jane Karlsson said…
My fault, I suspect
Charles Grashow said…
Take awayrthe berberine and he's definitely pre diabetic
Craig_in_CT said…
Does this mean if my diet and lifestyle don't result in an LDL of less than 75 (without meds), then I can't consider myself truly paleo? Seems like a great litmus test for membership!
Charles Grashow said…
Here's a link to the full paper on red meat, carnitine, TMAO and CVD
Craig_in_CT said…
I finally got curious and took a look at the kind of diet that Rob Wolf advocates on his website. It actually looks pretty sensible by mainstream standards. (Okay to eat as per RW: Fruits, Vegetables, Lean Meats, Seafood, Nuts & Seeds, Healthy Fats)

This isn't vastly different from the latest iteration of the mainstream DASH diet:

"THE DASH DIET WEIGHT LOSS SOLUTION turbocharges the DASH diet, ranked as the "Best Overall Diet" by US News & World Reports in 2011, 2012, and 2013, with proven NIH research on DASH (Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension) to create a program guaranteed to speed weight loss and boost metabolism. Based on long-overlooked DASH research and developed into a weight loss plan by the foremost DASH dietitian and leading nutrition expert, Marla Heller, MS, RD, this effective and easy weight loss program includes menu plans, recipes, shopping lists, and more. Readers will enjoy a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, low-fat and nonfat dairy, lean meats/fish/poultry, nuts/beans/seeds, heart healthy fats, and limited amounts of whole grains.

So DASH turbocharged is basically the Rob Wolf diet, plus lowfat dairy, beans, and limited amounts of whole grains.....

Charles Grashow said…
Delusion reigns at livin la vida low carb

Joe Fraizer • 5 hours ago
Jimmy, I have been following your blog for two years and have, until now, been too shy to comment. The pictures you posted, however, have inspired me to do so. You look unreal! You appear to be physically lean and appear to be closing in on an athletic physique. I am of Aboriginal descent, and the only success I have ever maintained with regards to weight loss has been via an approach similar to the methods you are currently using! Keep posting pictures man

LLVLCBlog Mod Joe Fraizer • 5 hours ago

THANKS Joe! I feel more athletic than I have in my entire life...saying a lot since I'm past the age when most men would be in their prime for physique. But I'm bound and determined to keep pursuing this with a goal to see myself get stronger and stronger and one day see my abs for the first time. It's a BIG challenge, but I'm up for it now that I've found what is right for me. KEEP IT UP, Joe!

"You look unreal! You appear to be physically lean and appear to be closing in on an athletic physique."

JM wants to see his abs one day - OMG - he is still a fat tub of goo!!
Charles Grashow said…

My heart-healthy PAM eating plan includes 45 to 50 percent slow-burning, low-glycemic index carbohydrates; 30 percent healthy fats; and 20 to 25 percent protein. I’d also urge you to eat organic as much as possible. In short, here are some guidelines:

Increase your intake of:
Oatmeal and complex carbohydrate pastas, such as those made with whole wheat, spelt, or Jerusalem artichoke
Slow-burning, low-glycemic index vegetables, such as asparagus, broccoli, kale, Brussels sprouts, and spinach
Legumes, such as lentils, soybeans, and chickpeas (these contain folic acid, and they help lower insulin levels)
Onions and garlic (these contain allicin, which helps lower cholesterol levels)
Fresh herbs, such as rosemary, thyme, and basil
Fruits, such as cherries, peaches, plums, strawberries, blueberries, apricots, pears, and apples (melons, grapes, and kiwi are suitable, but they contain more sugar)
Sources of essential fatty acids (EFAs) and protein, such as cold-water fish and organic eggs
Soy products, such as tofu, soybeans, tempeh, and soy milk
Fish, especially fatty ones, such as salmon
Healthy fats, such as olive, sesame, walnut, avocado, and flax oils
Nuts and seeds, including walnuts, almonds, chestnuts, and flaxseed
Low-fat cottage cheese, feta cheese, and grated Parmesan
Decrease your intake of:
Foods containing refined white flour or sugar, such as breads and bagels
Partially hydrogenated oils, found in commercially prepared crackers, cookies, chips, and other snacks
Starchy vegetables such as corn, peas, and carrots
Canned vegetables, because they’re usually very high in sodium
Processed fruit juices, which are often loaded with sugars
Red meats and organ meats
Omega-6 oils, such as corn, safflower, sunflower, and canola
Full-fat dairy products, including whole milk and many cheeses
carbsane said…
While he certainly looks better than at 300+ pounds, he is certainly not closing in on an athletic physique! What is troublesome is that he is not eating a healthy diet and the diet is sending his biomarkers in the opposite direction (which is especially troubling as most of the time it is the other way around with that kind of weight loss.)
carbsane said…
It would appear so. But only when he eats a lot of fat because during the fast he became quite hypo.
Evelyn said…
Chris Masterjohn has weighed in:
Lighthouse Keeper said…
For those interested, Marlene Zuk - Paleofantasy author is the guest on the latest episode of the ' Skeptically Speaking ' podcast available on iTunes.
Charles Grashow said…
So - logic would dictate that he REDUCE his intake of fat - Yes?
Screennamerequired said…
His book is a bit different. The book says only "a little bit of fruit" if any at all in the beggining. He also seemed pro-saturated-fat and approved eggs and bacon, which aren't on his website.
Screennamerequired said…
I didn't know he exercised that much. . It's more of the fact that he good markers "despite" his crazy diet, not particularly because of it. Most people on the same diet without the exercise would experience a decline in health.
Screennamerequired said…
Lol. I saw that. I think the mere presence of vegetables in a police facility is a huge improvement from what I gather.
Screennamerequired said…
I don't think he thinks logically when it comes to the issue of fat. "reduce fat intake" almost criminally offensive words to a low carber, especially saturated fat. It's a line that would only be uttered by clueless conventional wisdom sheep.
Jane Karlsson said…
@google-30804cbf880015d09b8a750c38b39594:disqus Something else I should have mentioned, about the carnitine study. People who need to take carnitine may have copper deficiency. Carnitine synthesis requires the methylation pathway, which is dependent on copper as well as on B vitamins. Lots of people think they have B12 deficiency when they may actually have copper deficiency, because the enzyme that needs B12 (methionine synthase) allso needs copper. B12 deficiency is very difficult to explain but copper deficiency is not. Here in the UK the copper content of veggies has fallen since 1940 by 76%, according to government figures. Animal products are often low in copper (except liver, of course), and much or all of it gets removed from carbohydrate foods whose metabolism requires it. And saturated fat has been found to inhibit its absorption, which goes a long way towards explaining the link between saturated fat and heart disease. Klevay found years ago that a high fat diet causing heart disease in mice did not do so if they were given extra copper.
carbsane said…
I'm looking at the 30 Day Menu section of his book. It is low fat, low carb. No starch. Many days have no fruit and those that do have one piece (450 g is like half of a pineapple or 4 7-8" medium bananas, or 4 cups apple slices, etc.) Almost all cooking is done with olive oil and not a lot at that (e.g. 1T for 1.5 lbs chicken -- the recipe lists this is for 5 servings).
carbsane said…
Oh wait, you get a sweet potato hash on Sunday of Week 1. I tend to think if you took that diet blindly over to PaleoHacks it would be balked at BIG TIME.
Susanne said…
What's with his "over the hill" schtick? I remember him doing this before. This is a very old-fashioned attitude in a gen-Xer, the Baby Boomers have been turning it around for years. And it's not just a myth either, there are plenty of folks, men and women, who I see in my gym regularly who are in their 40s and 50s and older who have perfectly good physiques. Hmmm, "in the gym regularly...." -- correlation or causation?

What is JMs exercise program currently? Is it still Ultimate Frisbee? I'm reading Heart 411 right now and apparently aerobic (cardio) exercise performed regularly raises your HDL, lowers your LDL and increases your insulin sensitivity. (I knew before that exercise was vaguely "good for you", but I didn't know those specifics.) Do the "cardio kills" followers ever address this?
carbsane said…
I think it's pretty pathetic really. He was more athletic back in 2005 when he worked out regularly than he is today. Most of the minimalist folks started out athletic and seem to be looking for ... well ... the minimum to maintain their physique. I want to see where this really transforms someone all on its own. Yeah and 41 is not that old. Not even really in the "old days". When my Dad was 40 (almost that many years ago) he hadn't yet packed it in!
sunny kumar said…
carbsane said…
666? 444? Just testing?
Susanne said…
At least for some non-athletic people, I think it can be done (with diet) if you are really freaking consistent at it for a period of several years. My program, for at least the last five years (even before I started to diet and lost the weight) has been just elliptical machine, 4-5 days a week, 30-45 minutes at sweaty high resistance. Mostly because I am in no way "athletic" or competitive, and you can watch TV on it! Then a few months ago I had one of those fitness tests done at the YMCA in order to start a weight lifting program, and I scored in the top quartile in my age group for everything, including treadmill running, pushups and situps, which I DON'T EVEN DO. I think the exercise was a big factor for me in having all the healthy metabolic stats despite being on the edge of "overweight/obese". And Kaleo says she doesn't really do extreme exercise either, it's just consistency for her.
Jane Karlsson said…
I can't understand why your PAM eating plan says to decrease intake of foods containing refined white flour/sugar. It should say, eliminate them entirely. Nor can I understand what the problem is with full-fat dairy or starchy veggies.
Anonymous said…
You really make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this
topic to be actually something which I think I would never understand.
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From Dr. Peter Attia's website - in the comments section

Thomas Dayspring aka "Dr Lipid" May 26, 2012

Well the 50th percentile cutpoint is not normal if one is trying to prevent atherosclerosis. The 20th percentile cutpoint would be considered desirable: that is 80 mg/dL for apoB and < 1000 nmol/L for LDL-P

Barkeater May 31, 2012

for replying and thanks for this series.

I am anxious for the grand train wreck that comes when Dr. A tells Jimmy Moore and the low-carb/ paleo crowd that have achieved > 2000 LDL-Ps (yes, I am in that club, thanks to FH) that they have to get to an 1100 LDL-P, and good luck getting there with anything but statins or unproven crap like zetia (or maybe an Ornish diet – me, I choose to eat food). As TO
says, get your popcorn.

Jimmy Moore has gotten an NMR, and reported LDL-P of 2130. I see a significant number of low-carbers seem to have spikes in their LDL-C and LDL-P that would appear to be driven by diet. They are not necessarily FHers like me (but I have seen wide ranging LDL-P, from 1500 to 2800, and cannot yet tie it out to diet). Commenter MacKillop below refers to a double-digit percentage of folks on low-carb diets who see very high LDL-C. Mr. and Mrs.
Jaminet have blogged at some length on the issue. I see the view expressed by some that this phenomenon is due to ApoE4, but I don’t buy it (I am a 3/3).

Peter Attia May 31, 2012
The question we don’t know the answer to is if an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who eats no carbs is the same as an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who does. I had breakfast with Eric Westman today and we discussed this topic. Eric makes a pretty compelling case that these 2 states are not, in fact, the same thing. I think we can safely say we don’t know the answer. At least I don’t. I’ll keep looking for clues, though.

Peter Attia May
31, 2012
I completely agree with Eric’s assertion (in fact, I’m having breakfast with Eric in an hour). This brings up a much larger question that I’m sure I will detail more closely in this series: It is
possible that all of the risk stratification we have for heart disease is predicated on someone consuming a normal Western diet? Furthermore, is it possible that once the body stops relying on glycogen and turns over to metabolic pathways of ketosis that the “numbers” we target as “normal” are irrelevant? I think I know the answer for some physiologic parameters, but I’m still trying to develop my “universal theory” uniting it all.

MY questions are these

1) "is an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who eats no carbs the same as an LDL-P of 2,000 in someone who does

2) "is it possible that all of the risk stratification we have for heart disease is predicated on someone consuming a normal Western diet? Furthermore, is it possible that once the body stops relying on glycogen and turns over to metabolic pathways of ketosis that the “numbers” we target as “normal” are irrelevant?"


3) Is DR Thomas Dayspring right when he says "Well the 50th percentile cutpoint is not normal if one is trying to prevent atherosclerosis. The 20th percentile cutpoint would be considered desirable: that is 80 mg/dL for apoB and < 1000 nmol/L for LDL-P.
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