las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Monday, March 30, 2015

11 Unexpected Health Hazards Of The Atkins Diet Besides Weight Gain

Timely Repost!

Here's a question for y'all.  How many obese people do you see in concentration camps?   How do you think their cortisol levels are doing?   Jimmy Moore is at it again, lying about his weight.  You see, he insists that he hasn't changed a thing since May of 2013, and the same fasting 18-24 hours at a clip and 2000 calorie boluses of fat laced with protein has not only failed to produce additional weight loss, but has resulted in what appears to be a complete regain of the 2012-2013 NuttyK "Experiment" weight loss.   It's the stress Jimmy claims.  

It's hard to believe it's been three years since most in the paleo community actually "met" Jimmy Moore.  At the time, he was going on various podcasts and exclaiming that he was the healthiest he's been in his life.  Jimmy didn't go on many other people's podcasts until that time, and it became rather frustrating to hear his protestations of health despite objectively appearing unwell.  This, by the way, irrespective of his weight per se.  This was pre-NuttyK, and I think this Abel James podcast might be worth a listen for some.  (If anyone does listen and you can give me a time stamp for when Jimmy exclaims he's the healthiest in his adult life, or if I'm misremembering that from this podcast, much thanks!)

But then Jimmy lost around 80 lbs and out came the truth-mobile.  Oh, Jimmy doesn't see it this way, but in an article for Carbsmart, we were finally treated to the truth about all the health issues Jimmy had been suffering from when his "healthy high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet" had caused fat to accumulate once again upon his body.  

So this post was a play off of that article.  It wasn't intended to be serious.  Amusingly, some took notice on Facebook thinking it was a real article on my part.  I had initially forgotten the link to Jimmy's article, so some others were up in arms over my trashing low carb.  But the thing is -- and there's not much data on this in the scientific literature because humans don't eat that way in perpetuity in the wild!!!  -- whatever you want to call the syndrome, long time low carbing tends to sneak up on a person in the form of symptoms one doesn't immediately associate with the diet.  This is why it IS important to talk about them, Jimmy, not poo poo their existence.  It actually HELPS people to identify the possible negatives of the diet.   

Carbohydrate restriction is metabolic starvation, and it is apparently perceived that way by the body.  It's a CONSTANT state of low grade stress that manifests in many as sleep disorders.   Whether it's the thyroid, or the adrenals, or the immune system, or the liver, or the kidneys, or whatever ... it's a pattern that is reported over and over again.  And it is also a pattern observed in many who don't report it!  There is a classic image of a trash can at AHS -- where all the healthy beautiful people congregated  -- filled with coffee cups.  Why so much caffeine flowing?  Also, does it not seem odd that a community so obsessed over fat burning beasts goes out of its way to accomodate drinking, and often we're not talking one or two?  

It would be one thing were this the trade off for a truly effortlessly svelte figure the way the diet books and guru bloggers make it out to be.  At least most celebrities have the "decency" to just lie outright.   But mostly it is just insulting to the intelligence to hear the stories of boundless energy to be expected once one is off the mythical blood sugar roller coaster, later to be treated to confession after confession of the realities of life for these folks.  I think this is why keto was such a rage amongst so many long term low carbers, because at least temporarily, the heightened ketones were like cocaine!  (Look up the whole brain fog/mental clarity thing with cocaine in the short term and the long term.  The parallels are uncanny.)  Couple that with the buzz of losing weight and it's a nice wave to ride for a while.  Then the dust settles.  So Jimmy Moore is "wired and tired" and back up to around the 300 lb mark.  Just don't go pointing out that someone who makes their living as a weight loss success story and health advocate is so objectively unhealthy.  HAES stands for Health ....   Jimmy Moore does not qualify no matter which cherry picked biomarkers he deludes himself into thinking are the only ones that matter.

Now, to find the time to write the serious article of this nature!


First Repost 9/14/13 

(I was going to remove this, but left it so comments will make sense).  Well, I don't know how many of my regular blog readers follow that Twitter update over there on the sidebar, or check me out on Facebook, but the past day or so has been quite interesting!  Apparently Jimmy Moore is very upset that anyone would dare to post anything other than a stevia coated endorsement of Cholesterol Clarity and he's marshaled the troops!   On Friday, within a matter of hours the number of reviews almost doubled because he was very upset that there were negative reviews there!  I guess sales aren't so hot so he needed his friends to post even more 5-star platitudes to drown out the few negatives.  More on that at some point....  But one of his fans seemed especially bothered that I might give the book a mere 2 stars (one more than the book itself deserves).  This would be Dr. Bill Wilson of The CARB Syndrome Project!  Most folks probably haven't heard of him, and they are probably better off keeping it that way.  Basically he believes that carbs scramble and fry your brains and I have now been diagnosed as being in the latter stages.  He wrote a post all about it.  He emailed me the link.  He linked to it in comments here.  He posted it on Facebook.  

In his keen diagnosis, and he reminds us he's been a doctor for 35 years now, Dr. Wilson cites (without linked attribution) two comments of mine, one of which came verbatim from this post, the other probably from a comment, but I mention insomnia here.  I've kept the post as is, but bolded in red the symptoms he cites.  Perhaps the good doctor should address Diane Sanfilippo, or any one of the other various and sundry low carb and/or paleo zombies out there suffering from insomnia and the ensuing fatigue ... due to their sugar detoxes!    Yes, doctor,  “I was fatigued from time to time from sleep deprivation as I had raging insomnia” ... WHEN I WAS LOW CARB.  Checking those off your list.  You're barking up the wrong tree for sure looking at me.

Edit:  The link to Sanfilippo's Facebook confession of chronic fatigue since AHS-2011 has been removed.  There doesn't seem to have been any discussion in the interim of her overcoming this issue, so one must presume it is ongoing.




Originally Published 6/18/13


1. Carbohydrate Cravings and Hunger
By restricting carbohydrates you will discover your previously unknown addiction to carbohydrates and start craving them. The longer you do Atkins the fewer carbohydrates you will eventually be able to eat. Eventually even protein will lose its physiologically satiating properties and trigger hunger and cravings because a skinless chicken breast might as well be at Little Debbie cake. 

2. Spontaneous Snacking
Initially you will lose your hunger, but over time you will need to eat every few hours, perhaps even more often.  No way will intentional fasting be an option, intermittent or otherwise.

3. Brain Fog
Forget carb comas!  You'll get that brain fog hitting you really hard even after eating a pretty decent low-carb meal.

4. Insomnia
Forget getting 7-8 hours of sleep, you'll be lucky to get 6 uninterrupted hours and should get used to the latest fad:  intermittent sleeping.  Never sleep more than 4 hours at a stretch.

5. Prediabetes
Your fasting blood glucose will creep up over time into prediabetic range.  You will also see blood glucose spikes over 140 mg/dL from a slice of toast.

6. Muscle Atrophy and Weakness
It won't matter if you Slow Burn only once every 10 days!  You still won't be able to increase your weights or see any indication of lean mass.

7. Inflammation 
Increased CRP and other markers of inflammation.

8.  Fatigue
Forget the low carb flu, in the long run you'll be dragging your feet in no time.  Don't even think of leaving your headgear off during that 12 second Slow Burn workout because you might black out from the hypoglycemia and hit your head. 

9. Exloding LDL particles of all sizes
Sure most of your LDL will be the cute fluffy kind you can dress up in designer apoB's, but you'll also get a lot of smaller ones mixed in.  

10. Skin Disorders
Daily zit fests and annoying skin tags are just the beginning for you!   Don't worry, the boils will become manageable.

11.  Hemorrhoids 


109 comments:

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Bris Vegas said...

What a load of rubbish. I spent nearly10 years on a high-fat VLC diet. I had NONE of the above symptoms.

BTW in Australia doctors do not test for any blood lipid subfractions except HDL and LDL. The reason is because there is NO convincing evidence that they have any clinical relevance as risk factors. [In fact the average Australian cardiologist is typically far more concerned about a patient's diet and lifestyle than any laboratory test results.]

Wuchtamsel said...

I hate to say it as I don't want to defend the Atkins Diet, but this is really ridiculous!

The Atkins Diet is by no means healthy and personally it raised my LDL-C to levels more than concerning. But I definetely never felt any better in my life than during this half year on Atkins. Not only did I lode a lot of weight, but I was more energetic than ever, slept better than ever and had NO cravings whatsoever.

And who the f*** has ever met ANYONE who gained weight on Atkins??? Is this a joke or what?

Kindke said...

CarbSane,


did you write this or is this copy/pasted from somewhere?

carbsane said...

Sorry, forgot the "adapted from" link at the end.

carbsane said...

I'm sorry I forgot the "adapted from" link at the end. This was a bit tongue in cheek in response to Jimmy Moore's 10 Unexpected Benefits of NuttyK Besides Weight Loss piece. It is amazing how he was always so healthy all these years on regular low carb until now, eh?


As to the last part? I've met lots of people over the past few years who have gained weight on a low carb diet. Also many staunch advocates who have regained some, all or more weight despite remaining either strictly LC or "not being perfect". Shhhhhh, don't tell anybody about those folks, right? <-- last comment there is not directed at you, just a general one.

carbsane said...

As I've said above, I forgot the "adapted from" link so this was intended to be a bit of a spoof. However, wrt the lipoproteins, the person who inspired this would be failing on the good old fashioned LDL-C test.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Oh, dear. You forgot the smiley! You're in trouble, now! ;-)
I was going to type a reply like "Nope! Nope! Nope! Nope! Maybe. Nope! Dunno. Nope! Dunno. Nope! Nope!" , but decided not.....oh, bugger! :-D

carbsane said...

:-) I also forgot

12. Severe arthritis of the funny bone. (yes, I know it's not the bone responsible for the designation ... work with me!)

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John Smith said...

I had brain fog but it was no big deal, I actually prefer brain fog, most of the time my brain is way too active. As far as muscle atrophy, I had no problems at all lifting weights 4 hours a week on low carb and I packed on quite a bit of muscle.


The deal-killer for me regarding "low carb as a way of life" is that I like to run, a big part of the reason I wanted to lose weight in the first place is so that I could start running again, and running on low carb is a fool's errand. Low carb doesn't work for running, biking or any other sustained aerobic activity. For athletic activity glucose is king.



Works okay for sedentary people though.

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George Henderson said...

Now you're just making stuff up..

One of the reasons Atkins became so influential is, that his opponents were complete fools and presented him publicly with perfect set-ups that he could demolish easily. The man was truly blessed in his choice of enemies.
Glad to see the tradition continues, only Jimmy Moore is being given the boost.
Funny you didn't mention bad breath. As evry ful kno, ketones smell sweet. Bad smells while dieting result from protein catabolism and are suppressed by adequate protein intake.

carbsane said...

No excuse for you :-)


I didn't make anything up I was working off of Jimmy's list of 10, and added the 11th malady he fessed up to having when he was "healthiest he's ever been in his life" pre-NuttyK. I originally forgot the link and let it go, the response has been interesting ....


Atkins was the original sympathy seeking rebel who played off of his counter mainstream act. He was an original, and apparently many learned well from him. When one claim is dispelled, just switch to another and claim you were still right all along. This is why his diet will never be taken seriously and those who have followed have just doubled down on the made up claims. Sad really.

carbsane said...

I don't think it is really good for sedentary people either, though I think the issues are less apparent. Back in 2011, I wouldn't have considered myself sedentary but I certainly wasn't engaging in any sort of endurance activity. I was fatigued from time to time from sleep deprivation as I had raging insomnia. I would stay up later in hopes that once I zonked out I might sleep through the night, but that didn't work so I settled in at going to sleep around 9 or 10pm depending on my hub's schedule. I would invariably wake up around 1am, sometimes even as early as 11 unable to fall back asleep. Eventually I'd putter about the net until I eventually fell asleep from exhaustion. If I was lucky that was 3am, but usually it was 4 or 5. It was no fun when the alarm went off at 6. Now Jimmy is sleeping better because he's blacked out his windows and takes melatonin. No doubt losing weight has helped his stress level as well. But his is actually the opposite of what most experience on VLC as time progresses. It sneaks up on you though, and I never thought myself to connect it to low carbing. Don't you think more honest testimonials are needed George?


From some FB feedback, I'm planning on doing a more serious list of this nature as it is interesting how many people recognized some of this list as real to them.

carbsane said...

I started a response to John below and ended up talking to you in it, so I cut it from there and edited it to here. He got me thinking about #4 which is my personal experience. Here is what I wrote:

Back in 2011, I wouldn't have considered myself sedentary but I certainly wasn't engaging in any sort of endurance activity. I was fatigued from time to time from sleep deprivation as I had raging insomnia. I would stay up later in hopes that once I zonked out I might sleep through the night, but that didn't work so I settled in at going to sleep around 9 or 10pm. I would invariably wake up around 1am, sometimes even as early as 11 unable to fall back asleep (if I was really exhausted and fell asleep early and woke up at 10-11pm it was very disorienting). After a while of failing to go back to sleep, I'd putter about the net reading, until I eventually fell asleep from exhaustion. If I was lucky that was 3am, but usually it was 4 or 5. It was no fun when the alarm went off at 6.


Now Jimmy is sleeping better because he's blacked out his windows and takes melatonin. No doubt losing weight has helped his stress level as well. But his is actually the opposite of what most experience on VLC as time progresses. It sneaks up on you though, and I never thought myself to connect it to low carbing. All I ever heard was the positive, now at least I hear more confessions about it that I may have made the connection. Don't you think more honest testimonials are needed George?

From some FB feedback, I'm planning on doing a more serious list of this nature as it is interesting how many people recognized some of this list as real to them.

eulerandothers said...

You left out the halitosis. As to 'brain fog,' I though Dr. Atkins himself mentioned it in the first Atkins diet book, way back when. He said it would pass. And the halitosis. But - it's about losing weight, right?

Derek Hurst said...

In all seriousness - I did Atkins for 6 weeks from Jan 1 - mid February 2010. Dumped 15 pounds, got to the lightest weight I had been since my freshmen year in college. I did experience severe halitosis, and my sleep was negatively affected. I would fall asleep for about an hour and a half and I would then wake up drenched in sweat (In January, in Maine). This is what led me to add more carbs back, I had always slept very well prior to this. Put roughly 8 pounds back on and maintained from there.

Lighthouse Keeper said...

Interesting that he chose Mcdougall as his comeback podcast, the antithesis of what he advocates and no doubt with the intention of coming back with a bang.

carbsane said...

He needed someone to bash and he made three "preview" videos to make sure to prime his audience as well.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/controversial-interview-raises-ire-rises-to-top-of-itunes-health-podcast-charts/18569



Pretty much says it all. He's whining about McDougall not rallying around common ground ... because of the veggies of course ... they could have discussed how both McD and paleo are against dairy ... oh wait, Jimmy doesn't eat paleo ;-)

Lighthouse Keeper said...

Indeed, he also previously baited McDougall saying he did not have the guts to debate him - that's one reason McDougall steamrollered him, the other being he did not want go round and round in circles on refined versus complex carbs as happened in the Ornish podcast.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I agree, Lighthouse Keeper.

While it wasn't nearly as bad as some of the commentators made it out to be in the comments section, I heard the interview and I was still put off by McDougall's zeal and attitude. Nevertheless, something was seriously off about the whole situation. So just a quick Google search revealed that this was most likely the outcome of a stretched out baiting by Moore that dates back to McDougall finally accepting the offer to be interviewed this past February.

In other words, I believe that McDougall agreed to be interviewed on this pod cast looking for confrontation with bated breath.

Wuchtamsel said...

I'm not from the US and I didn't even mention subfractions and calcium scores.

It's just a fact that if your (or in this case my) LDL-C rises from 130ish to over 210 this is atherogenic beyond doubt. If you dispute that I don't think it makes much sense even to discuss any further. There is a pletora of rockhard science to prove that.

And no, aerobic performance can actually be pretty excellent even in individuals with rather severe atherosclerosis shortly before an imminent cardiovascular event.

carbsane said...

Jimmy is playing victim some more: http://www.vinnietortorich.com/2013/06/angriest-trainer-142-jimmy-moore-sets-the-record-straight/

McDougall asked a good question -- why has Jimmy struggled so much with his weight? Jimmy gets all defensive and all "look at me now" when the truth of the matter is that he has been closer to 300 lbs than 200 lbs since 2008 and gone up and down the scale by chunks of 30 or more pounds at a clip. How is this not fair or "making it personal" when Jimmy goes on and on about "folks like me" and "I'm healthy". Just because he doesn't think it is important doesn't make his nightmarish LDL any less so. He takes drugs to sleep and keep his fasting glucose in check and has compromised kidneys, and appears to have to dye his eyebrows. ;-)

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

McDougall's questions were fine and he did raise good points. It's the fact that he became hot under the collar that worked against his credibility and composure. Who knows, perhaps that was the intention behind this whole fiasco because in the post-mortem of his interview--following those empty gestures of gratitude--it's all been this disparaging narrative about how McDougall's the most unreasonable ponce on the planet.


Some could argue that McDougall got trolled. . . hard.

carbsane said...

"Some" would probably be right. This was Jimmy being Jimmy. He needed to generate something to get the audience back after the hiatus.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

He certainly got the ratings.

George Henderson said...

Halitosis, as I mentioned in my other comment, is a sign of protein degradation that you will find in people who fast or undereat for all sorts of reasons - including anorexics and the mentally ill eating low-fat diets when they do eat - and is repressed by protein (or protein-sparing carbs) on a low-carb diet.
My provisional hypothesis: tryptophan is not an energy-efficient amino acid to catabolise into the TCA (check out the tortuous, vitamin-needy maze of tryptophan catabolism). When eating lots of protein, excess tryptophan is not absorbed, hence feces smell of indole (pungent metabolite of tryptophan also found in bitumen). When catabolising stored protein in a fasting situation, the tryptophan released maybe in excess of what the catabolic pathways can handle, and some is expressed in saliva or sweat as indole (it would only take a minute amount, mixed with other odours, for this to be halitosis), or perhaps in saliva as tryptophan which is then fermented by oral bacteria to indole and skatole.
See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12663078

carbsane said...

Jim Fixx comes to mind!


I think too many have gone overboard from one direction to the other. I don't recall the numbers so I'm going to use made up ones, but this is what happened with the LDL story and LDL being tied to CVD. I'll use X and nice round made up numbers. Guidelines were established for X where 500 was high risk for Y. So folks with X>500 were counseled. Then it was discovered that 50% of folks who experienced Y had X<500. So they lowered the risk threshold of X to 300 in hopes of catching more. It turns out this was not wise. But what they are doing now is wiser -- trying to figure out what about lower levels of X could still be problematic in some, or some other factor entirely. This doesn't mean that those original X>500 folks are off the hook. Their risk remains.


IF (and it doesn't happen to everyone but there's a substantial enough portion to fill sites like PaleoHacks and Jimmy's forum when it was popular with near daily panic posts about it) your LDL shoots up on a LCHF diet, it is probably not a healthy diet for you.

H Marks said...

What we need, Evelyn, is a full-fledged expose of NuttyK. I don't know anyone else who can - or at least would - do it.

eulerandothers said...

see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15601961

A randomized trial comparing low-fat and low-carbohydrate diets matched for energy and protein.

'Our results showed no significant weight loss, lipid, serum insulin, or glucose differences between the two diets. Lipids were dramatically reduced on both diets, with a trend for greater triglyceride reduction on the VLC diet. Glucose levels were also reduced on both diets, with a trend for insulin reduction on the VLC diet. Compliance was excellent with both diets, and side effects were mild, although participants reported more food cravings and bad breath on the VLC diet and more burping and flatulence on the LF diet.'



LF= Low-fat VLC= Very low carbohydrate

Woodey said...

LOL! Love the last one - Hemorrhoids. Fortunately I never got them when I went Paleo/LC/Whatever. Nice thing is I stopped, went to Weight Watcher's and I am down 96 lbs. I eat carbs every day and feel awesome. No BP meds, clean bill of health. I have plenty of energy and I exercise 6-7 days a week. CICO!!!!!!

Woodey said...

OH and I have enough mental energy that I made the Dean's list this quarter and have a 3.8 gpa.

Screennamerequired said...

Imagine if it was low carb that lowered your cholesterol down to 150
across the board, just like hunter gatherers. Yet whole food veganism
shot your cholesterol through the roof for many people. There wouldn't
even be debate of what's better for you. Someone low carb/paleo
devotees have tried to pull out every trick in the book rationalize their high TC and LDL and overblow the importance of HDL.
Every paleo dieter that has had even a borderline LDL or TC has also had
a high LDL-p. LDL-c obviously tracks LDL-p closely in most situations.
So much for the bouncy fluffly non-athrogenic particles that make your
high LDL desirable. Most paleo followers are following a diet that puts
them at risk for atherosclerosis but they don't even know it or are in
denial.

Paleo Nouveau said...

Sorry but you made lots of assertions. Where is the science or anecdotal evidence to substantiate your claims?

carbsane said...

WOW that's awesome Woodey! Congratulations ... and not too shabby with the academics either. Cool :-)

Sanjeev Sharma said...

> "look at me now"

As if the story ends here;

> "look at me now"
yeah ... "famous last words"

Bris Vegas said...

Jim Fix started running as a sedentary very obese chain smoker. He had a family history of very early heart disease death. He only started who started in middle age. His heart was a time bomb ready to explode at any minute.

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Bris Vegas said...

Try the American College of Sports Medicine (the world's leading authority on exercise) exercise guidelines or the curriculum of any current university exercise science course.

Bris Vegas said...

HGs have a very wide range of cholesterol levels. Some even have higher TC levels than most Westerners.

The reality is that most cardiologists consider cholesterol levels to be just another minor risk factor unless they suspect FH. The vast majority of non-FH patients who have heart attacks have normal cholesterol levels.

In Australia the official clinical guidelines recommend that the testing of LDL subfractions should NOT be performed because it has no clinical significance.

BTW Dr Robert Atkins was a leading Manhattan cardiologist.

Wuchtamsel said...

This is just not true. Anywhere (outside the 3rd world country USA maybe...) LDL is measured directly these days! And even if you don't measure LDL-C directly, the Friedewald equation is still pretty(!) accurate as long as you are not fat like a whale and have grotesque levels of triglycerides.

What you write about the role of LDL-C in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis is just plain WRONG. And "wrong" is a polite word in this context. You maybe shouldn't only read the cherry-picked bullshit that some self-proclaimed "experts" spew around (again, primarily in the US, strange isn't it...) but some hard data. Pubmed is open for everyone and YOU definitely have to do some very basic reading.

River Rance said...

Evelyn anyway to know how many 5-star ratings are from people that link to the book in order to profit from it? I did see the one from Australia that you outed. 'Cause see, I'm thinking, if I didn't get an advanced free .pdf copy (friendly gesture from JM,,,you know "peeps" keeping "peeps" informed) what's the reason for the surge in reviews, and did the reviewers really buy that book.

carbsane said...

Sadly, no.

I commented on those I knew for a fact got free copies from VB or Jimmy.


Interestingly, Jason Seib tried to argue that he gains nothing from his review. Well, nothing one can see on paper but Jimmy wrote the Editorial Review for Jason's book ... and his podcast has turned into an infomercial to launch every new book coming down the poop shoot.


So he probably sent out a flurry of PDF's to those that didn't already have them and "encouraged" a review be posted. Wink wink ... do me a favor, you'll never know when you need one from me.

carbsane said...

There are also very few Amazon verified purchases. Sometimes people buy the book elsewhere, but it is clear that most did not and even more didn't even read the introduction.

River Rance said...

Guess it will be interesting to see referral ads for the essay to start popping up on various sites...., as the various "paleo peeps" start writing reviews and linking to the "best selling author" that'll be the tell. JM has been low fat, low carb, CICO, Paleo, and now this NK stuff and has lost weight on all, but didn't keep it off so very well....I still think he's headed for B.surgery at some point...I was recently surprised to see his recent physical appearance...for me, he just didn't look well...gaining weight,loosing weight, up an down for the past few years, I really is taking a toll on him....just an observation not hate, in case he reads this....criticism & disagreement is not hate....linking to David Duke is promoting hate.

charles grashow said...

http://www.visioninstitute.optometry.net/UserFiles/users/499/File/WebDocum13Okeefe.pdf

Cardiovascular Disease Resulting From a Diet and Lifestyle at Odds With Our Paleolithic Genome: How to Become a 21st-Century Hunter-Gatherer

James H. O'Keefe, Jr. M.D. and Loren Cordain, PhD

Perhaps no scientific topic has generated more controversy and confusion in recent times than the question of the ideal human diet. Medical experts espouse divergent views of
human nutrition with evangelical zeal, each citing scientific data to validate their respective contradictory conclusions. This confusing dialogue is epitomized by the
Atkins vs Ornish debate. The Atkins diet includes high protein, high saturated fat, and avoidance of nearly all carbohydrates. In contrast, the Ornish diet consists of 80%
carbohydrates and minimized consumption of all animal protein fats. Proponents of both diets insist theirs is the answer to the American epidemics of obesity and cardiovascular disease; however, the advice for these diets is mutually exclusive and diametrically
opposed. In truth, the ideal diet is neither of these extremes nor what many medical professionals now promote. In a recently published large review of approximately 150 studies on the link between diet and cardiovascular health, the authors concluded that 3 major dietary approaches have emerged as the most effective in preventing cardiovascular events:

(1) replacing saturated and trans-fats with monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats;
(2) increasing consumption of omega-3 (ω-3) fats from either fish or plant sources such as nuts; and
(3) eating a diet high in various fruits, vegetables, nuts, and whole grains and avoiding foods with a high glycemic load (a large amount of quickly digestible carbohydrates).

Despite common misperceptions, this report found no strong evidence for a link between
risk of cardiovascular disease and intake of meat, cholesterol, or total fat.

These broad characteristics are consistent with the diet that Paleolithic humans evolved eating. This is the diet that our hunter-gatherer ancestors thrived on until the advent of the agricultural revolution. Through the millennia, our genome and physiology
became adapted to this diet. Of course, this diet varied by paleontological period, geographic location, season, and culture, but many characteristics remained consistent until recent times

SO - please tell me how the paleo diet evolved to be an excuse to eat bacon, meat and more bacon?? In Jimmy's case 80% SATURATED FAT!!

It makes NO SENSE

charles grashow said...

Optimal Low-Density Lipoprotein Is 50 to 70 mg/dl

Lower Is Better and Physiologically Normal

James H. O’Keefe, JR, MD,* Loren Cordain, PHD,† William H. Harris, PHD,* Richard M. Moe, MD, PHD,* Robert Vogel, MD‡



The normal low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol range is 50 to 70 mg/dl for native hunter-gatherers, healthy human neonates, free-living primates, and other wild mammals (all of whom do not develop atherosclerosis). Randomized trial data suggest atherosclerosis progression and coronary heart disease events are minimized when LDL is lowered to70mg/dl. No major safety concerns have surfaced in studies that lowered LDL to this range of 50 to 70 mg/dl. The current guidelines setting the target LDL at 100 to 115 mg/dl may lead to substantial undertreatment in high-risk individuals. (J Am Coll Cardiol 2004;43

If our genetically determined ideal LDL is indeed 50 to 70 mg/dl, perhaps lowering the currently average but elevated levels closer to the physiologically normal range may improve not just CHD but also many other diseases commonly attributed to the aging process. For all of these reasons, and given the safety record of statins, some investigators have suggested that statins be considered for routine use in individuals over age 55 years.


SO - Loren Cordain is also co- author of a paper that not only advocates LDL-C of 50 - 70 mgs/dL BUT also suggests that statins be given to EVERYONE over the age of 55!!


Now the paleo people will tell you that he's changed his opinion on saturated fat but I've NEVER seen anything from him changing his position on LDL-C!


SO - what would Jimmy's excuse be? To dismiss Cordain along with Dayspring, etc.?

carbsane said...

I agree with you, he does not look healthy, and that's not hate, it's just an observation. He is also on the regain again (this will be blamed on his gut flora after having to take antibiotics following his dental work) .

Some of the reviewers did already write them on their websites ... mostly smaller players. He was on like every podcast no matter how obscure as well.


Still no speaker list for the 2014 cruise ... guess he wasn't invited to the oh so "primal" outing to Tulum in March (Sisson & Wolf)

carbsane said...

I think you meant this for the CC post?

charles grashow said...

Move it if you wish.

charles grashow said...

Might as well move this one as well.

carbsane said...

Unfortunately Disqus doesn't let me do that. If you repost and delete this one it would be best, and I see there's the review as well below that really belongs there. C&P and delete, or leave them, it's OK they just seem out of place.

charles grashow said...

I C& P - moved them to the CC Thread - but I don't know how to delete them

grinch said...

Let's not forget, counting calories is no more effective than counting carbs in free living humans. People gain weight while counting calories as well, given that people are notoriously unable to accurately count them. People suffer chronic hunger and lethargy while counting calories as well. People tend to have healthier bio-markers when they eat low-carb verses calorie-restrictive low-fat diets. Counting calories is simply too inconvenient for most people to sustain.


I am pretty sure every low-carber has at one point (if not many times) attempted calorie restricted diets and failed on them. That is why today in 2013 they are on the low-carb bandwagon. That is why new dieting programs keep emerging every other week, because the conventional wisdom is not effective.

carbsane said...

People who "fail" (no moral judgment intended, hence the "") at calorie counting are those who stop doing it or cannot comply out of hunger, circumstances, etc. In other words they go off the plan.

There are many low carbers who are dedicated to not eating starch or sugar, yet gain weight staying 100% on that plan. I used to interact with a few of them (not Jimmy) regularly on Jimmy's forum. Because you can be LC and consume too many calories. Combine that with the denial that calories have anything to do with weight and .... blammo.

The thing is that LC is no easier to stay compliant on than calorie counting. But it works for some and that's great ... and then it mysteriously stops working despite being so so very good. One of the first things I tried when I had plateaued out was to go back to bare bones induction. But since I was not eating a lot of carb on my VLC days, there wasn't far to go. That's the thing, and when Gary Taubes delivered the news that some obese are so metabolically damaged even leafy greens and blueberries keep them fat, I cannot think of much more cruel than to say such a stupid thing to rescue one's failed hypothesis.

It may not be desired for quality of life, or easy, but the calorie counter can at least cut calories more (or increase expenditure). You can't go lower than almost-zero carb and there's no way that I'm aware to create a carb deficit once one's glycogen is depleted. Do you know of one?



I disagree about the biomarkers in terms of the significance of differences. There are also a lot of arbitrary "this biomarker is more important than that one" designations being made.

carbsane said...

Deleted comments were simply moved to a more appropriate post.

docww said...

CarbSane—Relax a bit. It’s perfectly fine that you don’t like Jimmy’s book. As you mentioned, like most authors he probably pushed some of his friends to write reviews but he has a long list of positive reviews. If he armed twisted all these folks into writing good reviews he makes the mafia look like nuns! I do happen to like his book and he certainly didn’t twist my arm. Every book has some weak points but overall I thought it was a very good book. When it comes to the issue of low carb/high fat diets increasing LDL-c
and LDL-P in some people, at least he was honest about it. If these folks have low triglycerides and high HDL we simply don’t know if they are at increased risk. If you have high triglycerides and low HDL, the risk is well established.

Concerning my speculation that you may have CARB syndrome, as I admitted in my post, I could be wrong. Many of your followers who visited my Facebook page don’t believe CARB syndrome exists. If that’s truly the case, it doesn’t make any sense to worry about a disease that doesn’t exist.

If you don’t like using the CARB syndrome model because it is unproven, then use Hudson and Pope’s established Affective Spectrum Disorder concept. The CARB syndrome model is simply an expansion of their concept. They do include eating disorders in their model.

If CARB syndrome does exist, you are in the best position to decide if you fit the pattern I have described. You say you had insomnia on a low carb diet and I don’t find that surprising. Many low carb diets like Atkins are very poor choices and there can be a lot of side effects. I agree with you that Paleo and low carb diets can be too restrictive in some cases, resulting in unwanted side effects.

I agree with you on many points. I am certainly not a traditional “low carb” fan. I believe in “smart carb” eating. If you get your potatoes from a can of Pringles, don’t be surprised if you end up being a metabolic train wreck with a brain that doesn’t work. If you eat Greek potatoes (potatoes, lemon juice, olive oil) then you’ll probably do just fine. The acid
in the lemon juice and the healthy fat in olive oil slow the absorption of the potato, avoiding brain-frying glucose spikes.

I believe that the traditional Mediterranean diet is one of the healthiest ways to eat and this diet has lots of healthy carbs. When they eat bread, they never just stuff in their mouth—they use it as a soaker to mop up the vinegar and oil from the left over salad dressing or meat drippings. Again this slows the absorption of the carbohydrate in the bread. I don’t eat a lot of bread because I think there are more nutritious foods to eat but when I do eat it I also use it as a soaker.

In my opinion processed foods are the problem and this type of food contains a lot of refined carbohydrates. It also contains a lot of sugar and bad fats, creating a deadly combination.

CarbSane—If I was “barking up the wrong tree” when I suggest that you might have CARB syndrome, that’s good. Congratulations on enjoying excellent health. Perhaps if we spent a little more time in constructive conversations we would find that we have a lot in common.

Sue Staltari said...

There's quite a big difference between pringles and a potato so you should have said pringles in the first place if that is what you meant!

carbsane said...

I am quite relaxed for having been attacked in this manner. This isn't about Jimmy Moore's book, Doctor.

Perhaps if we spent a little more time in constructive conversations we would find that we have a lot in common.



Not that I have any desire to, but at what point in this process did you attempt to engage in a constructive conversation? I must have missed that. The prudent thing for you to do would be to disengage at this point, methinks.

docww said...

meagrees.

Left Footed said...

Evelyn,
I have read a lot of your blog posts, and I don't get it. What do you suggest that someone like me, 42 years old, female, 270 lbs and 5'2" do? This is the highest weight I have EVER been. I have binge eating disorder clearly. You say the "mythical" blood sugar roller coaster. Well, I am pre-diabetic, have PCOS, insulin resistance, hypo thyroid, and NAFLD. Who knows, it might be full blown diabetes right now, but I'm too afraid to go to the doctor to have that diagnosis on my record. I had gestational diabetes with both of my babies. With my first, I ate a VLC diet and checked my BS religiously. I never felt so good! My "mythical" blood sugar roller coaster was EVEN and I even lost weight in that pregnancy (I could afford to). I forgot to mention I dealt with infertility for years until I went on a clean eating low carb diet and BAM, got pregnant that first month at 38 years old. Went on to have my second baby at 39. No fertility drugs needed after all.
I don't get what diet you are for. I know you are against keto diets and low carb diets, that is clear. I've done Weight Watchers, calorie counting, Nutri System, low fat, veg*n, and excessive exercising. Remember, I have an eating disorder. Oh, and depression and anxiety, there's that too. I had hope for a low carb diet, because I've always felt the most healthiest on them. But reading your blog just makes me even more depressed and want to give the heck up.
What gives?
How's your diet? What do you eat? Are you healthy?
I'm super confused and just want to give up.

carbsane said...

First of all Left Footed, please don't give up!


My point with this post, and I'm sure I have some others, though they may have been on my no-longer-existing personal blog, is to highlight that there are downsides and these are better dealt with by acknowledging them than ignoring them.


If you have a fair amount to lose, and you choose to do it LC, then you'll probably want to find some sort of cycling plan that is doable for you because the odds are really against you that such long term carb restriction will not have some detrimental effects. I've met so many -- women especially -- who have taken months/years to undo the damage.

If you listen to some of these women they *sound* perky -- because they are on! -- and then when the cameras go off, so do they.


Have you considered getting help with the eating disorder? I would highly recommend that you do, because such a professional would be able to help you figure out why you binge. NO diet will do that, and ultra restrictive diets just play into the restriction-induced "common" version of BED. (I firmly believe that a goodly portion are these benign ED while fewer are rooted in some non-diet behavior related cause)

charles grashow said...

Left Footed

What do you eat in an average day?

What meds are you on? For example do you take any thyroid medication?

Have you had a recent HA1C test done? Have you had complete blood work done recently (lipid panel including NMR and/or VAP, CBC, Vit D3, Mineral test - Magnesium, potassium, iron, etc.)

You say you've tried Weight Watchers, calorie counting, Nutri System, low fat, veg*n, and excessive exercising.



Have you tried therapy for your eating disorder, depression and anxiety?

Kitty said...

Looking for a diet to fix an eating disorder is like trying to find the right casino to cure compulsive gambling.

StellaBarbone said...

Anyone of those diets will work just fine, if you can sustain it. None of them are magic and you'll never reach a point where you can not be vigilant about your intake and still maintain a weight loss. You can't be cured of overeating, but you can learn to manage it. I will never be able to maintain my weight without monitoring and I will never win a Nobel prize in mathematics. The latter never bothered me, but I had to learn to stop letting the first be a problem for me.

There is a book called The Beck Diet Solution which uses cognitive behavioral therapy to help overeaters, bingers and emotional eaters learn how to manage their impulses. You might want to give it a read. A lot of the solution is just managing your expectations. I spent a few weeks whining to myself that it wasn't faaaaaiiiir when I started Weight Watchers, but then one day I realized that the whole measuring and tracking business took less time out of my day than dental hygiene and I just stopped fighting it.

There are roughly three ways to lose weight; choose food from a restricted list of repetitive and not overly stimulating food (low carb, vegan, Ornish/Esselstyne, Weight Watchers Simply Filling), pre-portioned foods (Jenny Craig, Nutrisystems, protein sparing fasts), intake tracking (Weight Watchers Points Plus, standard calorie counting with or without a smartphone app) and a few hybrid plans. They all work. The human species is remarkably flexible in its tolerance of dietary variation. If a moderately low carb diet works for you, great, but it won't be a magic solution. It also won't have any particularly good or bad health effect. Get your other issues under control (depression, anxiety, alcohol, sleep issues, whatever -- get therapy, if you need it) and then just pick a method and settle down for the long haul.

sautterron said...

Notice that leptin was discovered in 1994. Basically you couldn't do a diet based on analysis how hormones behave before then. And Atkins diet is from 70s, what ouside insulin did they know then? And there was a need to try to do something, so I wouldn't blame him that he tried.
But the new guys from modern times, when there's too much information don't have a comfort of being excused from not knowing.

sautterron said...

McDougall himelf has some weird beliefs, like Ghenghis Khan living on starch... His whole ancestral diet ideology seems to be broken too.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Hahahahaha!

Yeah, because we know how to separate the DNA of the rich from the poor and can cite more circle jerk blog posts to reinforce such a view. And that NONE of this comedy material (wishful interpretation of history) has jack to do with the questions posited to Jimmy Moore on that baitcast--err, podcast.

Apologies. You were talking about warped views?

LipidLogical said...

Hey Left Footed - Evelyn never answered your question about whether she is healthy - You can in fact listen to her own podcasts on Jimmy Moore's podcast where she talks about her current obesity and carb-binges. Simply google "Carbsane the bloated blogger" to learn more.

Normally, I would be opposed to any kind of "fat shaming" but in her case it's probably OK since she does so much of this to people like Jimmy Moore (who although a bit of a clown - is a thoroughly nice, well-meaning person who has actually lost and kept off 100's of pounds despite occasional fluctuations that are the natural consequence of a life of poor eating and a rise in the set-point)

I too was once overweight but after reading an article in Readers' Digest by Gary Taubes in 2011 radically changed my weight and my life and feel great to this day eating virtually no carbs for weeks at a time. Low Carb isn't as easy for women though and I don't discount the problems some people may face with it (I'm not closed minded like CarbSane aka Evelyn)

Hope you see this before Evelyn deletes it and blocks me - she's big on suppression too.

LipidLogical said...

Hey Left Footed - Evelyn never answered your question about whether she is healthy - You can in fact listen to her own podcasts on Jimmy Moore's podcast where she talks about her current obesity and carb-binges. Simply google "Carbsane the bloated blogger" to learn more.

Normally, I would be opposed to any kind of "fat shaming" but in her case it's probably OK since she does so much of this to people like Jimmy Moore (who although a bit of a clown - is a thoroughly nice, well-meaning person who has actually lost and kept off 100's of pounds despite occasional fluctuations that are the natural consequence of a life of poor eating and a rise in the set-point)

I too was once overweight but after reading an article in Readers' Digest by Gary Taubes in 2011 radically changed my weight and my life and feel great to this day eating virtually no carbs for weeks at a time. Low Carb isn't as easy for women though and I don't discount the problems some people may face with it (I'm not closed minded like CarbSane aka Evelyn)

Hope you see this before Evelyn deletes it and blocks me - she's big on suppression as well.

Kitty said...

He has not kept off hundreds of pounds. He's currently over 300 lbs and gaining, and that extra weight is mostly around the middle. What muscle he had is completely atrophied. He constantly complains of health problems (fatigue, insomnia, blood sugar issues, hormone abnormalities, etc.) and looks a couple of decades older than his age. Plus, he doesn't even have the glucose tolerance to eat leafy green vegetables! That is a direct result of his diet, because he was able to lose a couple hundred pounds years ago on a low-fat crapfest where marshmallows and Twizzlers were staples. Now he ridicules people who order fat-free lattes as he waddles up to the Starbucks counter to order coffee with butter in it.


I don't see the point of your post. Do you think Jimmy Moore is in a position to dole out diet advice even though he is morbidly obese and sickly - in all probability due to the diet that he strictly adheres to? Do you think the brick-of-butter-and-eggs diet is healthy and sustainable? I'm pretty sure that Left Footed, who has an eating disorder, does not need to listen to Jimmy Moore, who is in denial about his eating disorder.

Left Footed said...

Thanks for your response, Evelyn. I've been in therapy for 15 plus years. Ugh. I've even been in-patient for my depression and ED at one point. Saw a couple different nutritionists too. I guess I at least liked the appetite control I seemed to get on low carb/high fat. There are two books that give me some hope....."Rational Recovery" by Jack Trimpey and "Brain Over Binge" (forgot author's name right now and too lazy to google). I've tried Overeater's Anonymous too which is a 12 step program like AA. I never liked the "not having power" model over my eating, and I also felt like AA/OA was a bit too "cultish" for my taste so I found "Rational Recovery" and had good results taming my 'Feast Beast' for awhile while I was practicing it. That was back in 2005 though. Now life is too busy with working full time, having 2 (wonderful!) baby boys 3 and under and other things.
I honestly had my best success (in 2005) with Weight Watchers. We started having meetings at work and I quickly became very competitive with my co-workers and lost a lot of weight quickly. I also over-exercised too so I could earn points to eat back. So, yes, I still binged back then too, and I quickly learned what was the best bang for my buck and found myself binging on Kashi bars (gag!) and fat free everything. As with any diet I've been on, soon my BED took over my life again and I rebelled and ate all the way back up to my starting weight and then some (everyone's heard the story!)
Thanks for taking the time to listen. My doctor who is a low carb advocate has even warned me not to go too low carb because he's heard about it burning out thyroid function.
My goal is to be healthy for my two boys. Right now, I am far from that. And just so lost.

Left Footed said...

Hi Charles,
What I eat in an average day. Hmmmm....right now, a ton of junk/fast food. In fact, my drawer at work has a ton of Easter candy and other chocolate goodies in it. This is part of my BED. I get anxious if I don't have "easy access" to lots of junk. As far as the fast food crapola I eat, a lot of it is because we are in the middle of renovating a new house (have been since June of 2013!!) and we have the contractors from hell, and no kitchen to speak of. We do have a kitchen where we are living right now, but have kept most of our dishes, pots and pans, etc. packed up because we were supposed to be moving in "just a little bit, so why bother unpacking.....) I feel like I'm stuck, I'm living in what is supposed to be a temporary house that will soon have been our home for almost 2 years come June! I've basically put my life on hold this past almost 2 years thinking that I could start tackling healthy eating once we got settled into our new house. Now I want to kick myself because look at how much time I've wasted and how much weight I've put on. I was about 230 after the birth of my youngest and have gained over 40 pounds since then living like this.
I know it sounds like I'm blaming my environment a lot.....I know.....but depression and being in what feels like an impossible situation can make someone do that. Oh, I forgot to mention all the issues with my husband that I'm having....I've seriously wanted to check myself into a psych ward on many o' occasions the past couple years.
Okay, as far as meds, I am on synthroid, .075 mg. Klonopin as needed for anxiety. I am supposed to be able to take up to 2 a day, but knowing my addictive personality (and having abused Ambien in the past), I am pretty strict about only taking one at night to help with sleep.
I have severe OSA and sleep (pretty compliant) with a CPAP.
Last year, I had a kidney stone for the first time ever and via lab work was told that I had NAFLD. I pretty much knew that already though considering what my diet consists of. I also had to have surgery to remove the stone and had to have all the pre-op stuff done. Oddly enough, blood sugar (A1C) was 'normal', under 5.5. Lliver enyzymes were elevated, triglycerides were elevated, EKG was normal and blood pressure was normal (110/70). Thyroid was functioning normally with the dose of Synthroid I am on. (I've been on it since January 2011.) Vitamin D is low (23 I think?) but I do supplement with D3 when I feel like taking care of myself. Which lately isn't that much. Iron is fine. I believe magnesium and potassium were fine too, I don't remember the doctor saying anything about them. I have been prescribed Metformin (1500 XL per day) and I don't always take it religiously, again, only when I'm trying to care for myself. I'm on it for the PCOS/pre-diabetes.
Yes, I'm in therapy and have been for a long time. Have tried two different IOP programs as well, as well as being in patient for a week (mainly to be detoxed from abusing Ambien, but was also treated for depression and ED at the same time). Have a psychiatrist. Am not taking any anti depressant now, but I've been on a whole bunch of them in the past. Zoloft, Prozac (made me suicidal!), Wellbutrin, buspar, a couple others I can't remember the name of....
Thanks for listening. I'm just so stuck. I swear, if it weren't for my two little boys, I'd seriously probably have tried suicide at least a couple times by now. My marriage sucks. But I'm sure I have a lot of blame in that.

Left Footed said...

Thank you for the book suggestion. I've heard of it, but will check it out again.
Thanks for not laughing me off this board. I've never even put all this out there before.....(only to my medical/therapy team). So, I'm feeling a bit vulnerable right now.
But I have to say, I do think that there are a lot of low carb "advocates" or "experts" that don't seem to be all that healthy to me. Like Jimmy Moore. I've always felt weird about that. But the promises they make about never being hungry again....all my health woes being cured.....etc, etc, etc is very tempting.

Left Footed said...

It says the comment you were replying to was deleted....I wish I could have seen it. :(

Left Footed said...

I agree. I've been on plenty of diets and had lots of success with them. For a minute or two. Then, each time I gained the weight back and then some! The thing that gets me is that my dad used to tell me I was fat in high school/college. That's when I went on my first diet. My pediatrician recommended I drink juice, can you imagine? I went on a very low calorie diet that summer and lost lots of weight, got to my lowest ever adolescent weight. My periods stopped too. And once when I was 18, I wanted to donate blood to the Red Cross and got deferred because my iron was too low! Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that when I look back at my high school yearbook, I don't see a fat girl at all! I was very athletic. I was in varsity tennis (first doubles), softball and JV basketball. I have a more muscular build. I think my dad was trying to get me to look like my mom who is 5 feet tall and 100 pounds soaking wet. She is also very frail and has osteopenia now. But I digress. My body was never made to look like my mom's. It was made to be more muscular and athletic. I know there's not much I can do now about my dad putting me on a diet and starting all this for me (and trust me, I've confronted him about it and been in therapy for years about it!). The fact of the matter, it is what it is. Can't go back and change it. I need to find a way to be able to not be so obsessed with food and to just get healthy for my boys. For me too. But I will be no good for my boys if I die of a heart attach at age 44! :(

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss.

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining it.

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss....

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss......

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss........

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss...

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss............

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss!.

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss.!

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss.!!

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss.!!!!

GoogleTheBloatedBlogger said...

Oh I was just pointing out that Evelyn is very overweight herself - hence no pictures. (Google" "Carbsane the bloated blogger")

She lives in the proverbial glass house - dishing out insults at Jimmy Moore, a man (who I'm no fan of) that obviously has severe genetic and past eating induced issues (i.e. a high set-point). These preclude him from staying at what we would term a healthy weight. Nevertheless - he's a far cry from his former self as anyone can see - unlike Evelyn Kocur aka carbsane.

Low-Carb doesn't work for everyone - it appears to become less and less effective with the progression of time spent on the american diet - and is never quite as effective for women - due primarily to estrogen.

It is however, the most effective tool in the toolkit for weight loss and sustaining that loss.!!!!4

carbsane said...

Here is is Left Footed, with the encouragement to google the unhinged and uninformed rantings of a man who seems bent on building a legal case against himself for harassment.

"Hey Left Footed - Evelyn never answered your question about whether she is healthy - You can in fact listen to her own podcasts on Jimmy Moore's podcast where she talks about her current obesity and carb-binges. Simply google "*****" to learn more.

Normally, I would be opposed to any kind of "fat shaming" but in her case it's probably OK since she does so much of this to people like Jimmy Moore (who although a bit of a clown - is a thoroughly nice, well-meaning person who has actually lost and kept off 100's of pounds despite occasional fluctuations that are the natural consequence of a life of poor eating and a rise in the set-point)

I too was once overweight but after reading an article in Readers' Digest by Gary Taubes in 2011 radically changed my weight and my life and feel great to this day eating virtually no carbs for weeks at a time. Low Carb isn't as easy for women though and I don't discount the problems some people may face with it (I'm not closed minded like CarbSane aka Evelyn)

Hope you see this before Evelyn deletes it and blocks me - she's big on suppression as well.



________________________________________________


So let's address "Lipid Logic" who created a Disqus account to leave the comment on my blog.


1. I have not fat shamed Jimmy. This is Jimmy's straw man argument. His weight is an issue because his reason for having a platform is his personal story. Only his personal story is not one that bears out his claims. Jimmy is ALL about "look at me" when his latest scheme is working for him, and all about "don't look now" when it fails him yet again because he is using diet to attempt to cure an eating disorder with other underlying issues. This man CHOOSES to live his personal life as his "professional life".


2. Jimmy Moore is a liar. This has been shown over and over, and it is a serious pathology with him, because he lies about things that anyone who has ever read his blog knows are untrue. For example, when he was losing and had lost the weight with NuttyK, he was giving speeches using the slide here. This slide is a clear lie.

Why does Jimmy continue to highlight his weight loss if he doesn't think it is relevant?




Because .... health.


Aside from his abominable lipid panel and deteriorating glucose tolerance, Jimmy has underlying kidney health issues he has mentioned briefly but doesn't seem to want to address as important. This is his perogative not to discuss them, as well as whatever other challenges of a personal nature he chooses not to reveal. BUT, he can't do that and say his diet is healthy ... even for him ... because if he were locked away in a Pritikin center for 6 months I can practically guarantee you he would come out a healthier man for it.


As to the rest of the post, my critics forced my hand beginning in 2012 to remove personal focus from my blogging. If you want to know the details of that, they are all here on the blog.


I'm pretty sure I know who LL is. This person is not open minded, and if they think I am closed minded on dietary issues, they clearly haven't read more than three words on this blog.

carbsane said...

Since this, LL has changed his log in and attempted to leave the same comment 13 times. Ahhh Disqus. Love it. I may have


There are no longer pictures on this site because this is NOT a personal website, it is similar in some ways to a site like authoritynutrition, or perhaps even paleoleap which doesn't even have an about page. This is also an action I have taken, which I will not explain, on advice of legal counsel since 2012-13.


Now please go away.

Kitty said...

Your mileage may vary, but I highly recommend the No S Diet: http://www.nosdiet.com


It's just no snacks, no sweets (including soda), no seconds except for sometimes on days that start with 'S' (weekends and special days). I found it really helpful for learning how to eat like a normal person (pre-obesity epidemic). Add a short stroll after every meal to deal with your blood sugar issues, and you'll be good to go.

Left Footed said...

I'm checking out this site now. I like common sense stuff.....thank you for the link!

Left Footed said...

I wish I had more time to read that site, but I have to go home now and pick up the kids from school/daycare. This was the help of Rational Recovery makes me think I might be able to do it. I'll keep you posted. At first I thought the site was satirical, but while it is funny, it makes so much sense. And as I said before, common sense is what I look for, what works for me. But how could it be that simple? It makes sense. (Notice I said simple, not easy....I know those are two entirely different things.....)
Thank you again, Kitty!

charles grashow said...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2006.01616.x/full


Apo B versus cholesterol in estimating cardiovascular risk and in guiding therapy: report of the thirty-person/ten-country panel

"There is abundant evidence that the risk of atherosclerotic vascular disease is directly related to plasma cholesterol levels. Accordingly, all of the national and transnational screening and therapeutic guidelines are based on total or LDL cholesterol. This presumes that cholesterol is the most important lipoprotein-related proatherogenic risk variable. On the contrary, risk appears to be more directly related to the number of circulating atherogenic particles that contact and enter the arterial wall than to the measured concentration of cholesterol in these lipoprotein fractions. Each of the atherogenic lipoprotein particles contains a single molecule of apolipoprotein (apo) B and therefore the concentration of apo B provides a direct measure of the number of circulating atherogenic lipoproteins. Evidence from fundamental, epidemiological and clinical trial studies indicates that apo B is superior to any of the cholesterol indices to recognize those at increased risk of vascular disease and to judge the adequacy of lipid-lowering therapy. On the basis of this evidence, we believe that apo B should be included in all guidelines as an indicator of cardiovascular risk. In addition, the present target adopted by the Canadian guideline groups of an apo B <90 mg dL−1 in high-risk patients should be reassessed in the light of the new clinical trial results and a new ultra-low target of <80 mg dL−1 be considered. The evidence also indicates that the apo B/apo A-I ratio is superior to any of the conventional cholesterol ratios in patients without symptomatic vascular disease or diabetes to evaluate the lipoprotein-related risk of vascular disease."

What was Jimmy's the last time he posted it? I believe it was 238.

StellaBarbone said...

Ah. Have you thought about returning to WW? It's not very sexy and it doesn't promise an easy solution, but it might provide the level of support that you need to keep working the plan. It's been tweaked since 2005 and they really work to nudge you in the direction of a healthier lifestyle and making the diet a lifestyle rather than a "diet". They've shifted things around to help reduce some of the gaming of system that happens and to gently push you more in the direction of lower calorie density, fresh food. There is also a lot of support available through coaching and social media and you can incorporate whatever macronutrient balance you prefer.

As you've discovered, weight loss is a lot more complicated than finding the magic macronutrient balance. Support and reasonable expectations are a lot more important.

StellaBarbone said...

I like the No S diet! I'm anti-snacking too. Fewer decision points leads to fewer bad choices.

Wuchtamsel said...

Well, that means he can live "free" and doesn't need to worry about his retirement arrangements...

Kitty said...

You're welcome. It is common sense, but there are quite a few people there who have lost substantial amounts of weight and - here's the rub - maintained their loss for years. Unlike most diets, it actually gets easier the longer you do it.

Razwell said...

Obesity is not caused by simple overeating.

Razwell said...

Adam KOSLOFF AND I TALKED TO OVER 50 PHYSICISTS. THEY OVERWHEMINGLY UNANIMOUSLY EUPPORT GARY TWUBES.

Razwell said...

Go F uc k yourself, Carbwane COLPOS PICTURE IS A POORLY EXECUTED HEAD GRAFT SAID EXPERT ANALYLISTS.... YOU ARE ABUSING CONSERVATION PRINCIPLES. OVER 50 PHYSICISTS LAUGHBAT YOU.

DR BRAYBFULOY AGREESCWITH ME I BETVTHATVCHAPS YOUR FAT ASS

Razwell said...

DR. BRAY FULLY AGRES WITH ME ABOUT YOURS AND FOLPOS WBUSEVOF CONEERVATION LQWSL I HAVE EMAIL STILL . I BET THAT chwps YOUR FAT SCIenDE ABuEING ASs

Razwell said...

DR. GEORGE BRAY FULLY AGREES WITH RAZWELL ABOUT CARBSANESMTOTAL ABUSEMOFMCONSERVATION PRINCIPLE.

charles grashow said...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2005.01610.x/full

Stroke
mortality and the apoB/apoA-I ratio: results of the AMORIS prospective study

The principal finding in the present study was the strong, direct relationship between increasing values of the apoB/apoA-I ratio and the risk of fatal stroke. The apoB/apoA-I ratio reflects the balance between atherogenic apoB lipoprotein particles, VLDL, IDL (intermediate density lipoprotein), and LDL, and antiatherogenic apoA-I lipoprotein particles, HDL. Furthermore, the relationship between the apoB/apoA-I ratio and the risk of stroke was significantly stronger than for the TC/HDL and LDL/HDL cholesterol ratios. Both apoB and apoA-I contribute to the risk of stroke. In fact, a low apoA-I value was the single strongest contributing factor to an increased apoB/apoA-I ratio and to risk as it was significant in different subtypes of stroke including also haemorrhagic and subarachnoidal strokes. We also found that low HDL cholesterol was as common as a low apoA-I value. In this regard, our HDL cholesterol data are in agreement with previous reports


In conclusion, these are the first findings that link both apoB and apoA-I to the risk of stroke. Furthermore, the results also suggest that disease in the cerebral and coronary vessels are both influenced by the balance between atherogenic and atheroprotective particles and in that regard share a common pathophysiology. These data also demonstrate that the apoB/apoA-I ratio is a more accurate index of that critical balance than the conventional cholesterol ratios and constitute further evidence that the apoB/apoA-I ratio should be adopted as the best summary index of the lipoprotein-related risk of atherosclerotic disease in clinical practice.

macrauchenia said...

OK, these are from 2006. As of 2009: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/119/17/2396.full and 2012: http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1485370

I believe I once read a response to Mora, but can't find it. Anyway, there has been some controversy, but it sounds like most believe that at some point apoB/LDL-P will replace the the standard lipid panel. Since LDL-C is not a useful factor for determining who is at risk for heart disease, I wonder if apoB/LDL-P could really single out people at high risk, or does it just offer a better measure response to treatment. As I recall the recommendation is only to get cholesterol checked every 4 to 6 years for most people anyway.

Just Sayin said...

Damn it, 3 days into this diet, and hemorrhoids. Injury preventing me from any physical exercise. Ohy

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