Did low fat diets cause the obesity epidemic in the US?
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The title of this post is a common theme repeated by the likes of Swedish diet doctor Andreas Eenfeldt - That somehow going low fat (thus high carb) has caused the obesity epidemic. At best, by percentage only, the USofA has decreased fat consumption from 37% to 33% (or 36% to 33% for women) ... this 3-4% reduction in fat percentage has been accompanied by a 7% increase in carbs (42-to-49% men, 45-to-52% women). As you can see in the graphs, absolute fat content is basically flatlined -- we didn't cut fat, women (who tended to "comply" on the fat recs moreso than men) even added a small amount. Any way you cut it, this relatively insignificant change would be insufficient to cause some sort of carb triggered, insulin-induced fat cell mutiny! Confronted with such facts the insulin hypothesis, or what I call TWICHOO, is changed ever so slightly to focus on how carbs cause you to eat more -- to the tune of some 300-500 calories/day and gain weight. (I would note that NuSI discounts any ineffectiveness of various LC diets that are not really LC and use 40% carbs -- If you don't see an effect there, you will do nothing to pin the obesity epidemic on the lowly carbohydrate.)
One of the things that Paul Jaminet mentions about his Perfect Health Diet, especially more recently, is that it is some sort of gourmet paleo diet, and resembles French and Thai cuisine. So I was looking around for something about the Thai diet in particular and came across this paper: The nutrition and health transition in Thailand. This paper is a bit older (2002) and covers the period from 1960-1995, during which Thailand underwent an economic shift from an agricultural society to a more industrial one. During that period the diet changed significantly too. Obesity is on the rise:
Thai staples and side dishes are being replaced by diets containing a higher proportion of fats and animal meat. A shift in the proportion of expenditure on food prepared at home and that expended on purchased, ready-to-eat food, in both rural and urban settings, gives another reflection of the change in food consumption of the Thai population. The prevalence of overweight and obesity among children and adolescents has increased dramatically during the past 20 years and is more pronounced in children from private schools and urban communities than in those from public schools or rural areas
The last sentence there is opposite of what we generally see here in the US, with overweight and obesity being more prevalent in lower socioeconomic classes. As Thailand has "modernized" we find:
Among adults, results from two national surveys in 1991 and 1996 indicated that the problem of overweight and other risk factors for cardiovascular disease have increased significantly. In considering the overall causes of death among the Thai population, the leading causes are diet-related chronic degenerative diseases. Diseases of the circulatory system have become the number one cause of death in Thailand and cancer has ranked as the number three cause of death since the late 1980s.
So what changes? Have the Thai been shunning butter and beef in favor of cereal and canoli? Nope.
I suppose you could blame the problem on just about everything -- from fruits and even veggies, to eggs, to meat and poultry, to animal fats. I suppose one could even fashion an anti-sugar meme from this data. But do you see the one thing that has gone down? That would be your starch -- rice, cereals (evil grains) and tubers -- consumption of this decreased progressively for a 31% decrease in 1995 vs. 1960. The other thing you'll notice is that carbs were then and still are the major component of the diet.
The anti-CICO's will find a small nibble to nosh on here ... caloric intake went down slightly (70 cal/day, I would note that they cite a figure of 2290 cal/day for "the most recent" 1999 source). But the rest is not looking so good for the TWICHOOB's!
- Protein intake is fairly low but increased 18%.
- The percentage of protein from animal sources increased from roughly 1/3rd to 1/2, an increase of 68% of 1960 levels.
- Fat intake more than doubled (2.5X)
- Fat intake remains low by Western standards but began in single digit percent of calories (~9%) and has now increased to "low fat" (~22%)
- Carbs decreased from an uber insidiously fattening and insulin spiking ~350g/day to a still insidious ~275g/day.
Increase fat, decrease carbs and metabolic hell is beginning to break loose in Thailand. It is noted in the paper that the more urban Bangkok carbohydrate intake is only about 50% with fat intake over 30% (sound familiar??!!).
What of these carbs? Surely these are those "special" carbs we are used to hearing about like the sweet potatoes, those more fibrous legumes, or the unrecognizable as corn maize? Nope. Rice is described as the traditional major source of calories and protein. From here:
Rice is so important to many Asian countries. In Thai, to have meal we say 'gin kow' which literally means 'eat rice'. In Thailand, rice is not a side dish, it is the central dish and all other things that you eat, support it. In a Thai meal, you generally eat more rice than anything else and it [rice] serves as the foundation for the food pyramid.This recipe is for the fluffy white rice that you see with 90% of Thai dishes.
From Kindle PHD, location 1384 |
I submit that while seemingly more generous, Paul's 100-125g/day starch or roughly 20% calories ... this is unfounded. This intake, he says, puts you on the top of that curve up there and as intake increases from there, you have declining health. Clearly that is not the case for the Thai. Their diet went from almost 80% carbohydrate to less than two-thirds of the diet. As starch goes, the health or toxicity curve clearly doesn't resemble Paul's. Meanwhile, the fat intake doesn't even begin to approach the ~60% most would eat on PHD.
For those not so inclined to read the linked article, I'll leave you with this description of traditional Thailand:
A new diet–health paradigm may be evolving that places more emphasis on the positive aspects of diet. The paradigm goes beyond the role of food constituents as essential nutrients required for sustaining life and growth, to one of preventing or delaying the onset of chronic diseases later in life. The food patterns, reported to confer longevity by promoting good health and prevent the premature onset of chronic disease later in life, are diets rich in cereals, legumes, vegetables and fruits, low in animal foods, and moderate in low-fat meats such as fish. These are consistent with the traditional Thai eating pattern. The origin of the Thai diet begins with the waterborne community. From information in King Ramkhamhaeng’s famous stone inscription in the early 13th century, it is clear that rice and fish were the major ingredients of Thai cuisine. Aquatic animals, plants and herbs are still used a great deal in preparing meals; large pieces of meat are rarely used in any dish. The common cooking methods still widely practised are stewing, grilling and baking; frying is an influence of Chinese cuisine. Fresh spices and herbs are common, basic ingredients in most Thai dishes. In a proper Thai meal, dishes are not served in courses; instead, they are served at the same time allowing the various dishes to complement and enhance each other. All dishes are eaten with rice, which is a main staple for the Thai population.
A far cry from any version of paleo I've seen, even PHD itself.
Comments
Uh, hellooooooooooo? What about CO?
I'm having yet another argument about CICO.
FrankG claims that CICO ≠ Energy Balance, as " + change in bodily stores" is present in the Energy Balance Equation, but missing from CICO.
I claim that CICO ≡ Energy Balance, as CICO is an abbreviation (acronym, even!) which would look stupid with the implied " + change in bodily stores" stuck on the end.
CIECOPCIBS (Calories In Equals Calories Out Plus Change In Bodily Stores) is unpronounceable! :-D
Bill reckons that CICO means counting calories. I disagree (surprise, surprise!). I say "calories count ≠ counting calories."
Can't wait for the troll who will not be named to show up claiming the opposite.
Natives of various countries can (and have in the past) post photos of typical meals and he'll claim he knows that's false.
they don't eat much rice in southern India (who do NOT eat rice because they eat Idli) and troll knows it "just because" (I've forgotten how he specifically dismissed India)
They don't eat much rice in Japan (according to troll because troll claimed his brother who spent time in Japan told him so)
Let's see if he shows up here and makes up new excuses for Thailand, and how "REAL SCIENTISTS HAVE PROVED" his stance.
It's the standard straw man; as if reading one page out of a field's "for dummies" book gives one all the knowledge, subtlety and nuance that a PhD in the field has.
You might also want to look at Attia's latest post, in which he explains that being in ketosis doesn't guarantee weight loss, and that you can gain weight by eating too much, even when in nutritional ketosis.
In his explanation, he also acknowledges that DNL isn't typically a big component of the fat balance.
Finally, he acknowledges that some fraction of the populace seems to do better following a very low fat, high carb diet! He just doesn't understand why.
"attack the nearest molecule to them in a nanosecond."
http://chriskresser.com/could-eating-wild-be-the-missing-link-to-optimum-health
___
Chris Kresser: Wow.
Jo Robinson: These free radicals are going to attack the
nearest molecule to them in a nanosecond. Boom! But garlic is faster.
Garlic is going to destroy those free radicals before they can get to
an important part of our body, like our DNA.
Chris Kresser: Mm-hmm
Chris Kresser: Wow.
_________
Chris Kresser, "the healthy skeptic" ... acupuncturist, Chinese Medicine ... "the healthy skeptic" - simply claiming it doesn't make it so Chris.
you may be healthy and may think you're a skeptic, but being good at applying that skepticism ... I'm skeptical.
What do you call the guy who passed, scoring in last place in his med school class?
RE Thailand: "The economic structure has also moved from agricultural to industrial." This alone would reduce CO. Increased affluence would result in increased bicycle/automobile/labour-saving device use and further reduced CO. Traditional diets go with traditional activities. Both have changed in Thailand since 1960.
Populations like the traditional Thai (and Pima and others) clearly show that this "need" for fat is highly over-rated. Something around 10% veggie and marine fat seems to be more than sufficient.
Now with the garlic? I don't know the compound she's talking about but perhaps it does contain a molecule that has a higher potential to accept the electrons from free radicals. Do these compounds get into your cells to do that? This is the question. VitE is an antioxidant that is found along with easily oxidized fats -- to protect them. It appears to work with whole foods ... but taking the antioxidant? Well, seems pretty much a bust.
125g/day of carbs is a "Goldilocks" amount. It's not too little (leading to an entirely different set of problems ;-) ) and it's not too much.
*The amount of blood glucose disturbance depends on the net meal Glycaemic Load, which is a function of net meal Glycaemic Index & grams of carbs. Refrigerated & re-heated rice can probably be eaten in relatively large amounts without significantly disturbing blood glucose level, due to the increased RS content.
My skeptical mercury had been rising and at this point It just completely cracked the thermometer.
I just think such foods are best eaten in controlled portions. It really is possible to just take a handful out of a big bag and eat them and stop.
I've been eating a pretty much vegan diet since the beginning of the year. My weight has been remarkably consistent even though I have not been counting calories. But several weeks ago I got an upper respiratory infection/cold and I decided to take a break and just eat whatever. In a couple days my weight went up by 7 pounds and stayed there for over a week. I eventually fasted for a little over 24 hours and this broke the strangely persistent weight level and I went back down to my previous stable weight where I continue to be.
Now it could be that I somehow consumed an additional 24,500 calories over two days and this raised me by seven pounds through CICO. Or it could be that there is another mechanism at play that is not understood (by me at least).
I also noticed that I am able to raise my stable weight by drinking Aldi root beer. If I drink almost a whole 12 pack, I think I can raise my "set point" and I will stabilize at the higher weight. I don't need to drink it every day, just over the course of a day. Then I just eat normally and my weight stabilizes at the higher weight. If I don't wait too many days, I can fast for a day and this brings my weight back to the previous level and it stays there. This is something that needs further experimenting to test, though. Any takers?
http://www.flexbelt.ca/?ng=1&mcp=4140&KEYWORD=electric%20ab%20exercise&gclid=CKfznJS3wbgCFTFgMgodhU4AfA
and
these?
The entire response of mine was a joke of sorts. I understood what you meant.
one of the researchers whose research we commonly sling around hereabouts did a study in an interesting field
http://militaryatheists.org/news/2013/07/wansink-veteran-prayer-study-illuminates-foxhole-atheists/
DR MCDOUGALL WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!!
Thais have high levels of obesity, heart disease and strokes.
****************************************
Eat Weight Disord. 2011 Dec;16(4):e242-9.
Prevalence of overweight and obesity in Thai population: results of the National Thai Food Consumption Survey.
*******************
Nutrients 2010, 2(1), 60-74; doi:10.3390/nu2010060
Risk Factors for Overweight and Obesity among Thai Adults: Results of the National Thai Food Consumption Survey
I do believe that cortisol increases water retention and that your digestive system is fairly dynamic in what it can digest (For example if you stop eating meat for a few years your digestive tract will down-regulate the ability to digest meat such that rapid re-introduction will cause distress). A possible mechanism is down-regulated digestion for a specific food -- > stress response --> mobilization of stress hormones -- > water retention and other associated characteristics.
Of course this is all speculation.. I eventually need to dig more into this as I believe CICO is essentially correct (I do not discount the possibility of health context associated variance in caloric intake but I am also unsure if it will provide a big enough difference to warrant calling CICO incorrect).
You've made the (invalid) assumption that weight changes are 100% due to bodyfat changes. This ain't so! See http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html and http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/why-counting-calories-and-weighing.html
Water weight is a big factor in all of this. You cannot gain X lbs of fat w/o eating X lbs of "dry food mass".
different!), and is defined (by me) as the level of sedentariness that
causes excessive muscular IR (Insulin Resistance, for newbies).
"Among adults, using the the Regional Office for the Western Pacific (WPRO) standard, 17.1% of adults were classified as overweight [body mass index (BMI) 23.0-24.9 kg/m²], 19.0% as class I obesity (BMI 25.0-29.9 kg/m²), and 4.8% as class II obesity (BMI ≥ 30.0 kg/m²). Using the World Health Organization (WHO) definition, 19.0% were overweight (BMI 25-29.9 kg/m²), 4.0% class I obesity (BMI 30.0-34.9 kg/m²), 0.8% class II obesity (BMI 35.0-39.9 kg/m²), and 0.1% class III obesity (BMI ≥ 40.0 kg/m²). There was a vast difference in obesity prevalence between the WHO and the WPRO criteria. Obesity prevalence when using the WPRO definition (23.8%) was almost five times greater than when defined with the WHO standard (4.9%). The present study found a high prevalence of overweight and obesity in nationally representative sample of the Thai population. Higher rates of overweight and obesity prevalence were computed using the WPRO standard when compared to the WHO standard."
You can get any result you want, depending on how you "cook" the data.
WHO standard = low rate of obesity (4.9%).
WPRO standard = high rate of obesity (23.8%).
I've lived there near the end of the relevant period early to mid 90s.
The main staple at *every local restaurant* (including those make-shift street kiosks serving local and exotic cuisine, comprised of plain sticky rice with steamed maize, vegetables and very spicy Thai soup made from prawns and other shell fish with no added oil.
Try harder.
Besides, what's your point, exactly? That they were fat and they consumed a high fat diet? Lol!
(get a description or download the PDF here: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/2/1/60)
from the study:
> sample of 6,445 Thais adults (18–70 years) was surveyed during 2004–2005
In the post you "replied" to a one time snapshot with next to NO historical comparisons was obviously CENTRAL, heck, it was the WHOLE POINT.
and surprise surprise I saw neither "saturated" nor "sodium" in the paper
> What a load of bullshit. Traditional Thai food uses highly saturated
palm and coconut oils. it also has extremely high levels of sodium
yeah, saturated fat was CENTRAL to the post's text and its message - in fact saturated fat was the post's WHOLE POINT
> What a load of bullshit. Traditional Thai food uses highly saturated
palm and coconut oils. it also has extremely high levels of sodium
yeah, sodium was CENTRAL to the post's text and its message - in fact sodium was the post's WHOLE POINT
>> What a load of bullshit.
holy lobotomy batman [0]
Keep these comments coming, puhLEASE: you bring to your analysis your own unique brand of incomparably specific, on-target, almost surgically-precise incisiveness. I can feel my brain expanding in its case while reading your ... stuff.
... yeah ...
entire post I'm replying to
_____________________________
Bris Vegas
What a load of bullshit.
Traditional Thai food uses highly saturated palm and coconut oils. it
also has extremely high levels of sodium
Thais have high levels of obesity, heart disease and strokes.
****************************************
Eat Weight Disord. 2011 Dec;16(4):e242-9.
Prevalence of overweight and obesity in Thai population: results of the National Thai Food Consumption Survey.
*******************
Nutrients 2010, 2(1), 60-74; doi:10.3390/nu2010060
Risk Factors for Overweight and Obesity among Thai Adults: Results of the National Thai Food Consumption Survey
___________ END whole comment I'm replying to
[0] that's a reference to this idiom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29
Burt Ward as Dick Grayson / Robin:
Batman's faithful partner and "boy wonder", noted for his recurring interjections in the form of "Holy ________, Batman!" (As with Batman, the series avoided referencing Robin's origins as one of Bruce Wayne's fellow "crime orphans," as whose legal guardian the courts appoint Bruce).
his foaming, sputtering reflex pro Taubes, anti Asian diet reaction is so unthinking he can't even tell when he eviscerates Taubes
colour me SHOCKED
Here's a funny one from some nutjob trying to claim the traditional Okinwanan diet was "High saturated fat" Despite the fact that a diet survey from the 50's had them consuming a crazy amount of carbs and very little fat, close to 80/10/10.
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/benefits-of-high-saturated-fat-diets.html
It's strange that these "Ancestral" organizations and websites appear to be anti low-fat, when most all known civilizations were primarily starch based
Having read some of Stephan's & others' citations I now think Okinawans ate more pork THAN THEIR NEIGHBORS, and may have exported pork products but "relatively high" doesn't mean their pork consumption was high in any absolute sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard
Saturated fats 38–43%:
Unsaturated fats 56–62%
One other way they tack against the wind[0] is to claim the digestive system (I used to know the details of this claim but have forgotten them ... to make the numbers come out I think they include liver as part of the digestive tract) delivers mostly fat to the rest of the body.
Evelyn may remember how Paul Jaminet phrases his version of this claim - I can't find it now, the google search terms are just not coming to me.
[0] the wind called reality
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9mNHNOMqaqM/TFGDVw-hqHI/AAAAAAAADFQ/Cg8YTXpHJwg/s1600/OkinawanDiet1.jpg
Kresser did post series about LDL-p and didn't even seem to acknowledge that so many paleo dieters have high Lld-p because the saturated fats in their diet cause their ldl and ldl-p to rise. Then you have people getting advanteced testing which is basically useless to a person with a LDL of 250, because no matter the particle size their particle count is going to be high with a LDL that high
I think the both had a pretty poor showing in that interview but Mcdougall did shut him down pretty well when Jimmy tried to imply the inuit had robust health. He also had a point that he had treated hundreds of patients just like jimmy with "deranged metabolisms" worse than his and helped them towards health. I'm sure a well constructed mcdougall style diet would do wonders for jimmy if he was willing to break his fatty food addiction. He should do one as one of his n=1, but i'm sure it would be horribly bias and he'd call it a failure if his HDL dropped 5 points.
My problem with any of these diets is the non-science based arguments for avoiding X. There was a post came across paleobuzz yesterday because apparently in a newsletter WAPF said they aren't paleo and this paleo disagrees. Last I checked grains = carbage = empty calories + toxins = evil and sprouted grains are no better. That's the paleo stance. That is not WAPF.
If you spend half your time demonizing every other food as toxic, you can't say "it's OK if YOU eat that" without muttering under your breath "if you want to die" because that's how you feel.
thanks but ... jeez, JUST STOP.
What's more interesting is the fighting between the high-carb and low-carb camps over the '70s diet. Because many of the high-carb advocates argue that what was seen in the '70s was actually a change in diet--contrasted by the '50s--that resulted in a decline in health and longevity statistics.
Centenarians are an interesting bunch. Sure, we could learn quite a bit about them by observing that they're doing at the time, but I think I'd put more stock, if I had to, in the strategy that got them there in the first place.
Why Southerners Are So Fat Click Here
Gluttony is a good thing in many ways. Sure the South is backwards and racist and homophobic but boy can those good old boys and girls eat. Their gluttony and morbid obesity fuels the economy.
Southerners eat a lot of fat and they are ENORMOUS!
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