When Orthorexia Goes Bad


According to the National Eating Disorders Association  {all emphasis mine}
Those who have an “unhealthy obsession” with otherwise healthy eating may be suffering from “orthorexia nervosa,” a term which literally means “fixation on righteous eating.”   Orthorexia starts out as an innocent attempt to eat more healthfully, but orthorexics become fixated on food quality and purity.   They become consumed with what and how much to eat, and how to deal with “slip-ups.” An iron-clad will is needed to maintain this rigid eating style. Every day is a chance to eat right, be “good,” rise above others in dietary prowess, and self-punish if temptation wins (usually through stricter eating, fasts and exercise). Self-esteem becomes wrapped up in the purity of orthorexics’ diet and they sometimes feel superior to others, especially in regard to food intake.
Eventually food choices become so restrictive, in both variety and calories, that health suffers – an ironic twist for a person so completely dedicated to healthy eating. Eventually, the obsession with healthy eating can crowd out other activities and interests, impair relationships, and become physically dangerous.
If you ask me, the first paragraph above is epitomized by the Whole9 approach an their Whole30 regiment enshrined in It Starts With Food.    (pg. 9 Kindle Ed.)
We have a theory about food that directly influences the rest of this book.
The food you eat either makes you more healthy or less healthy.
Those are your options.
There is no food neutral; there is no food Switzerland— every single thing you put in your mouth is either making you more healthy or less healthy.
I submit that viewing food in this manner is an invitation to orthorexia.  Back to NEDA website:
 [Orthorexia] is not an officially recognized disorder, but is similar to other eating disorders – those with anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa obsess about calories and weight while orthorexics obsess about healthy eating (not about being “thin” and losing weight).
And yet, orthorexia can lead to an officially recognized eating disorder.  If not anorexia or bulimia, an EDNOS (eating disorder not otherwise specified).   Indeed, IMO, it's probably not necessary to have a special term for the obsession with the healthfulness.  The behaviors developed during your life changing 30 days can lead to all of the things characteristic of your garden variety ED.   Indeed although there are various signs and symptoms of anorexia, it is not generally diagnosed as such until a person has reached a certain degree of underweight.  Does that mean that a person that is exhibiting all the classic behaviors of an anorexic doesn't have an ED until they reach 80 lbs?  They are fine at 90 lbs?  100 lbs?  Obviously this is not true, there can be no definitive line, and sadly most anorexics don't get help until they have reached a weight that finally gets the notice of others.  

When I hung around Paleo Hacks for a while, there were periodic questions asked, usually by young women, who "went paleo" for the first time and were now stuck in a binge-restrict cycle.  They would be good on paleo but then the weekend came and they succumbed to the pizza and beer or the ice cream and Doritos.  Feelings of guilt would ensue and come Monday, a new dedication "for their health" would ensue.  You had teenagers and young adults still living at home that were pissed off at their parents, because the nerve of those people putting food on the table for not acquiescing to their child's newfound diet.  Nevermind that oatmeal had never been a problem before all of this started ...

I think paleo is more likely to trigger an eating disorder than your garden variety calorie restricted diet, and here's why.  First, let's be honest here.  While some folks who had heart attacks had the bejeebers scared out of them over fats (sat fats in particular), most people adopting a low fat diet for weight loss did so because of the calories.  Thus the binges that often ensued from such restriction were not shoveling as much butter in one's mouth as possible, it was the "fattening foods".  Nobody seems to blame the fat in pizza or ice cream or donuts for this behavior, yet sugar is consistently demonized as akin to heroin ... garden variety carbs being not far behind.  Because, after all, sugar is sugar, a teaspoon and all that.

The paleos and the low carbers repeat a battery of made-up pseudoscientific mantras with deafening regularity.  A common "coping mechanism" for remaining LC was to imagine glucose being shards of glass ripping your blood vessels apart, or to equate carbohydrates with rat poison.  Some version of the image at right was posted on Dr. Eades blog once!   I have seen many describe a stack of pancakes with syrup as "diabetes on a plate", despite there being pretty much zero evidence that eating carbohydrates causes diabetes.

Use of such hyperbole is nothing unique to low carbers, of which there is a fairly large overlap with the paleo community, so let's drop that ruse too.  No, I'm not talking about the few genuinely high "paleo carb" consuming folks out there, I'm talking about the paleos who insist they are eating a lot of carbs because they have a piece of fruit and a Big Ass salad but won't touch a potato, or describe a small ramekin with shredded sweet potato in it as "mounds of" hash.   You're still a carbophobe if you believe that over 150g or so of *real* carbs has sent you over the pinnacle of "perfect health" or on the road to "insidious fattening" unless you run ultramarathons.  (And you are simply misinformed if you believe the Pima and the Thai ate LCHF ... ever.)   But I'm often chided for being "down on" paleo and LC and "why don't you pick on the vegans"?   

Well, now I'm going to pick on the vegans.  Mostly I don't pick on them because I really could care less about the infighting between vegan ex-meat eaters and paleo ex-vegans and their competition for the souls of the young.   The paleo community is populated by a high proportion of ex-vegans and ex-vegetarians ... which might tell you something.  Denise Minger was originally scheduled to speak at AHS this past weekend (yes I will make a public announcement shortly as to why I wasn't there) on the topic of what the paleo movement could learn from vegans or something like that.   I'd have to look through the old schedules, but as I recall the gist of this would be the mistakes made by vegans and how the paleos could avoid them (too late, in my opinion).  But the vegans have their own relationships with medical woo woo and pseudoscientific food edicts.  I really wonder what goes through the minds of bloggers as they debunk the latest "meat causes death" study to come down the pike while they peck away at their keyboards in Wheat is Murder tees and Vibrams.  Do they not see it?  Not even a little bit?  But I digress.

It's Not Just Paleo

I have made friends in different communities, several formerly raw vegans, over the past year.  In February, one of those friends posted a link to this video in a group we both belong to.  

This is Carmella Soleil of Carmella's Sunny Raw Kitchen.  If you do nothing else, please look at the website and spend about 20 seconds as the food headers flip by.   From her Health Journey:  

For as long as I can remember, I’ve always loved food. ... But my relationship with food has been “tough love” at best! Ironically, I have a very delicate digestive system. ... In addition to my difficulties digesting certain foods, particularly meat, I also had food allergies ... There was a time when I was afraid of eating altogether because of the almost inevitable stomach pains that were sure to come along. ....
... Eventually, in 1995, inspired by my sister’s own dabbling into the vegetarian diet, and no longer being able to ‘stomach’ the way eating meat, poultry and fish made me feel, both physically and psychologically, I became a vegetarian. Even though my new diet did help in some ways, I was still far from thriving.
By 1999 I was in the worst shape I’d ever been in my life. I had quite a few extra pounds and was suffering from a number of health issues. I was extremely irritable and depressed, had chronic vicious mood swings, insomnia, migraine headaches, low energy, constipation, and my digestive problems hadn’t let up. ....
...When a naturopath offered to do a reading of my condition with some new and complex computer device, I thought: “What the heck! What do I have to lose?” Even though I was relieved, at some level, to find out what was going on inside my body, the news was far from comforting. It was determined that all of my organs and meridians were totally out of balance (surprise, surprise!), except for my heart (thankfully!) According to the reading, I was also suffering from candida, and had allergies to foods such as corn, gluten and dairy. And, to top it all off, my immune system was completely shot to pieces. It’s amazing that I was still standing!...
Does ANY of this sound familiar???   In 2000 Carmella meets Don, her platonic life partner and woo woo master extraordinaire (that last description being mine).  She does Master Cleanse (along with 10 days of silent meditation):
... I decided my body was in dire need of a fast after all the abuse I’d put it through over the years. Doing the cleanse had a powerful impact; it helped me see with greater clarity what bad shape my body was in and how I needed to start taking better care of it....
Don had been experimenting with vegetarian/veganism and raw foods and related he never felt better during the 7 months he ate nothing but raw fruit and nuts.  In 2001, Carmella began to dabble:
... gradually started including more and more raw foods into our diets, while at the same time paying close attention to the issue of control. ...If we refused to get caught in ideals and control how we should eat, then how did we manage to change our diet? This is difficult to explain, as it isn’t a linear thing. One way to describe it would be to say that it began with our unbending intent to lead more fulfilling, healthier lives. The improvement in our diets – which has been slow and gradual over the years – has only been a side effect of our process of personal growth.
Fast forward to "today" which I believe would be 2010.
As incredible as it may seem, most of the physical problems I experienced prior to eating more raw foods have disappeared. The constant lethargy that used to overcome me has been mostly replaced by a vitality I never knew was even possible. Other significant changes that I’ve noticed include a dramatic improvement in both my hair and skin, much better digestion and elimination, no more bloating and a stronger immune system (I’ve only had a cold once in 10 years!)
Again .... ANY of this sounding familiar to people??   She discusses being diagnosed with SAD (seasonal affective disorder) in 2003 and going "fully raw" in 2006 "curing that".  While she's hesitant to ascribe that to her diet, what else can she attribute it to?  She then runs down a list of changes from about that time:
  • I had no cravings for cooked food (and I mean zero, none, ziltch!)
  • I didn’t feel ‘internally’ cold as I did in my 2 previous ‘raw winters’
  • My sleep was deeper and more restful
  • I was more stable both mentally and emotionally. ...
  • I had virtually no depressive, pessimistic thoughts 
  • I experienced very little conscious fear or anxiety, to speak of
  • I didn’t feel the usual lethargy in the wintertime....
Carmella admits she still has a few food allergies and digeative upset and carpal tunnel syndrome.   

Now, I realize I heavily excerpted from that bio, but it had to be done.  Substitute meat for grains and legumes or neolithic foods or carbohydrates, and there you have it.  And if anyone reading this doesn't see substantial similarities between this story and that of at least one (if not pretty much all of them) paleo gurus, then I'm sorry I wasted your time today.  For the rest of you, especially those who harp on the overweight (like myself) and presume we are unhealthy, don't care about our health, or whatever ... realize that one person's "healthy diet" is another's "poison", and weight loss is certainly not everything or necessarily healthy.

Carmella lost weight on her raw vegan diet because such a diet largely excludes a wide swath of food, many of them very calorie dense.  It wasn't necessarily a weight loss diet, but lookie at the amazing transformation!!  Interspersed in those pictures is one from 2006.  That one reminded me of someone.

 Raw vegan →

                                  Paleo ↓

image link
image link
(I have not even used the most stark example in the paleo community)

For all the focus on us supposedly unhealthy folks, I post these pictures because, I'm sorry, but when did skeletons become synonymous with health?  And if not skeletons, when did simply losing weight become the focus irregardless of health?  Jimmy Moore may have re-lost around 80 lbs, about 50 or so of which he relost for the third or fourth time since 2004 not counting other yo yos.  Meanwhile his urine pH is elevated, urine contains mucus, proteins and oxalate crystals and his lipid panel is nightmarish.  Ahh, but in a week or so we can look forward to a book about the cholesterol and sometime next year we'll get the Keto version.  Because ... paleo + LC = health.   But I digress ....

So ... fast foward to February 2013 and Carmella was apparently convinced by her svengali to undergo yet another cleansing regime -- liver gall bladder flush.  A liver detox of some unspecified sort.  Not at all unlike those you will find sold by Smash the Fat's Sam Feltham, Dr. Johnny Bowden or Amy Kubal's "Functional Medicine" doc,  Dr. Amy Myers -- the preceding list being FAR from all inclusive of purveyors of potentially dangerous woo woo.  

"For whatever reason we were moved to do this"

One flush led to another.  Not uncommon to do 20-30 flushes to clear all the stones.  Became fat intolerant.  More flushes.  She developed IBS.  Soluble fiber (raw foods!) triggered it, and fats.  She did try cooked foods and had to include grains because pureed squash becomes boring -- but her grain was white rice.  Safe starch?  Apparently not for Carmella.  Very stressful.  Her whole bowels are inflamed.  Carmella had gotten down to 80 lbs.  The updates on her main website left off with Part V, but in searching for if there was any further update, another blog turned up where she has updated beginning of July in Part VIII.    Before I get to that update, I will point out some clear differences between Carmella and the underweight paleos:  She (a) acknowledges her problem, (b) is trying to gain weight (at one point I think she put on like 15 lbs), (c) consuming some foods that are not normally on her extreme plan to do so, and, most importantly, (d) not writing articles on a highly traveled website with strategies for how people should cope with their extreme diets, shun moderation, eat less, and be more pure and healthy.

It was only a matter of time ....

Raw vegan woo woo meets paleo woo woo ... Carmella found the Specific Carb Diet (please see comment exchange with Gwen for clarification here):
While my getting rid of parasites last month did help somewhat in healing the inflammation in my gut, I'm still having some digestive issues. To my surprise, research online about my ongoing pain (where the descending colon begins) quickly revealed what seems to be the real culprits.
The discomfort I've been experiencing below my left ribcage is a condition known as Splenic Flexure Syndrome; gas is getting trapped in the bend of the colon, hence the strange 'bubbly' feeling and pain. For some reason I have developed an intolerance to fructose, which prevents its proper absorption into my bloodstream. As a result bad bacteria is happily feasting on it, causing gas and bloating.
And so I finally decided to take the plunge and give the Specific Carbohydrate Diet a try. After experimenting unsuccessfully with Jini Patel Thompson's Elemental Diet, juice and fruit fasting, and eating whatever few foods didn't irritate my intestines (mostly sweet potatoes, potatoes, white rice and gluten free rice-based goodies; in other words starches and complex carbohydrates), I figured that this is one of the few options that I still have left.
Perhaps her next desperate attempt at "health" will be to follow Karen Pendergrass' (who founded the International Paleo Movement Group on FB, and has a Paleo Approved label etc. )  lead and try a DIY fecal transplant of Don's feces.  You see, in incredibly irresponsible fashion, this is exactly what was discussed in a recent podcast on the SCD website:  How a Fecal Transplant Saved Karen’s Life.   These transplants have their utility.  They should also be done in the appropriate clinical setting for diagnosed gut dysbiosis.  Karen's was self diagnosed.  Her donor?  Nice hair and skin and a "good diet" known to her.  A friend.  Did she have their feces analyzed?  Of course not.  But now she's cured.  For $18 and dinner.  Please, don't fall down this rabbit hole.  

In Closing:

Does Carmella have an eating disorder?  Not in the classic sense.  She is certainly a victim of orthorexia.  What is heart breaking in her case is that the body can only be pushed so far.  Many of her ailments that used to be imagined or diagnosed by woo woo are likely very real at this point.  At some point the body begins to reject even the most gentle of foods.  This happens to anorexics as well, regardless of the diet that brings one to that state of self starvation.  The organs begin to shut down.  REAL medical care is essential at this point.  No amount of more perfect dietary purity is going to reverse the train.  I hope if anyone reading this recognizes this in a loved one, they get that person help.  

I hope to continue this discussion ...


Nigel Kinbrum said…
'Cos if eating 5 a day is good for you, eating 50 a day must be 10 times better, right? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4339203.stm
John Smith said…
My receptionist has orthorexia because she reads the Huffington Post "Healthy Living" section. The other day she told me that the baby carrots I like to snack on were poisonous.

The only thing she can eat without being filled with dread is organic kale.
Gwen1961 said…
I don't follow any SCD blogs so I don't know what kind of woo has gained a foothold there. However, for us the actual SCD is not woo woo. Five years ago, my son, who was 3 at the time suddenly developed chronic diarrhea. He began losing weight, which was alarming as he was already a skinny child. He began wasting away before our eyes. My husband spent very late nights (2am, 3am) researching all the papers he could find online. But it was a comment someone made on Hyperlipid that I mentioned to my husband. The commenter said something about some people not being able to digest carbohydrates. My husband looked in that direction and, voila! We changed our sons diet immediately. Overnight my son very obviously felt better. He was no longer lethargic, his diarrhea stopped. We thought maybe it was gluten so we tried non-gluten foods and the problems started again. So we went back to following the SCD.

My son will be 9 in October. He is the picture of good health.
Gwen1961 said…
I took a look at the photos on her blog. Oy.

Thank you for all the work you do exposing the dark side.
Karin said…
Oh wow... I think I'll keep my few extra pounds (and my bra), and be happy.
carbsane said…
Yes, according to Diane Sanfilippo that white stuff on baby carrots is dried chlorine. ;-)
I think enjoying all the fruit and vegetable that one 'wants' is well and dandy, but gobbing it down as the sole source of nutrition and calories is just asking for absorption problems and further issues.

We are all different, some of us a bit more skeletal than others. Take for example that paleo vs. vegan shot it this post. Paleoista looks lean and in shape--she looks fine. The raw vegan disaster, on the other hand, not so much. . . she's pretty much devoid of any real muscle tissue. Kinda' funny actually because many people could see that photo comparison up there as a screaming endorsement of paleo skinny versus raw vegan skinny. Lol.
carbsane said…
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. As blog posts get long I sometimes don't get all the disclaimers in there. Yes there are people with legitimate digestive issues (to fat as well) for whom diet is a critical component and essentially a cure. A lot of the verbiage on that SCD lifestyle website she linked to is "off" however -- sugar is not "man made" for example. I also am not a big fan of GAPS which is similar. Carmella mentioned fructose malabsorption in her latest update as well. I find it hard to believe she had underlying digestive issues with complex carbs and fructose yet thrived on a raw diet for what appears to be a few years at least before things turned.

I do find the SCD guys highlighting Pendergrass' "lifesaving" cure from undiagnosed illness through DIY fecal transplant wholly irresponsible.

So perhaps I'll edit to clarify but hopefully folks will read your comment and my response. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying the SCD. But like many other situations, I think it's necessity is overstated because there are definitely a lot of people out there presuming they have SIBO, etc. that have not been properly evaluated.
John Smith said…
She got a bit miffed when it took me 10 seconds to refute it with a Google search. I think she is secretly hoping that my wild carrot-eating ways will bite me in the ass and she will out live me.
carbsane said…
Paleoista does resistance training too though. There are side by sides one could do on the two of them that would have Carmella looking better. I just think a lot of people see a skinny vegan and will say "oh unhealthy!" but if you told someone that person was paleo, they would say lean and fit.

I am rooting for Carmella (and Amy) to heal, but I fear she is too steeped in dogma. I hear her partner Don does occasionally eat a raw egg yolk. At some point you end up unable to eat anything. Chronic undernutrition leads to a wasting that is difficult to reverse if not irreversible. Immediate and aggressive intervention needs to be the priority.

When I was in high school, one of my gymnastics teammates began losing weight and regressing developmentally quite rapidly. Many suspected anorexia/ED but she was evaluated by a physician and a pituitary tumor was discovered. Mainstream medicine is not always inept ..... (I'm happy to report seeing a picture of her on FB a while back so she has recovered and appears to be doing well).
carbsane said…
There was another more high profile raw vegan who had a child and recently began eating animal products again after the child was weaned. She was very open and wrote informative blog posts. I was, however, bothered by all the raw vegan stuff still for sale on her website.

It must be a very tough thing to go through when one's identity and finances are so wrapped up in a diet. That doesn't excuse it, but if anything perhaps a cautionary tale for those thinking of becoming the next ___fill-in-the-blank___.
carbsane said…
PS ... These days Nell appears to be at a healthier weight. She is a triathlete so that body type serves well in the sport. I do not think she is necessarily unhealthy, but I've seen some pictures of her that are quite frightening and would be cause for concern were they my relative/friend.
I haven't seen these shots of Nell, but sure. Might even have something to do with her sport of choice.

If I have to concern myself with weight--outside of someone looking like they're about to die or unable to function due to their health--it would be on stability. Such as how have they been most of their lives without the gimmicky nonsense, whatever weight or physical build that might be for the individual. DurianRider often gets bashed by butch ex-vegans, turned Paleo, for being too skinny when he looks fine as well. There are no problems with his physique and he's been a lean, small framed individual most of his life. Of course, he's a total head-case, but that's a different matter.
carbsane said…
It was very scary for us all at the time. This was the late 70's and cancer treatment was nowhere near as progressed as it is now. So visiting our bald friend in the hospital was quite a shock for us.

Yeah, I think the LC folks especially have a distorted view of normal weight. I myself will never be a "normal weight" and that is fine with me. So there is a tendency to see a lean person and think too thin. I get that. OTOH, I think the skin,eye sockets/cheeks, and upper-to-lower limb ratios tend to be tell tales in many cases. I know a few very lean folks and there is just a difference ... can't always put a finger on it.
Melissa said…
SCD was invented as a treatment for certain symptoms by the late Elaine Gottschall, it is only the recent spate of diet goons that has made it a "lifestyle" and tried to merge it with paleo or evolved it into the woo woo GAPS diet.

If I learned anything from stupid diets it's that you can initially thrive on even really dumb ones. Humans are resilient but they can only take so much. And you can give yourself fructose malabsorption by starving yourself to the point where your small intestine is damaged. Some anorexia patients eventually die from this.

What someone looks like can only be a very rough guide to their health. You really need the stats i.e. %muscle, %body fat, bone density etc. to determine whether they are in good shape.

BTW, I think DurianRider looks terrible.
That is why I don't bother. For all I know, that is their natural homeostatic state and they're probably doing better than most in terms of lab numbers and bone health rather than going up and down in constant cycles. Muscle and fat% I am not all that interested in so long as the ratio isn't absurdly off; there's a wide margin of normalcy in that regard for people.

Yeah, that DurianRider, man. Looks like shit. Will probably crumble to dust anyway. Lol. Nah. I see little reason to doubt that he's fine outside of his basket case antics, which most can tell is part of his notorious internet gimmick to get attention and generate YouTube dollars.
To me he looks dangerously thin. Reportedly, he has had to go on some hefty b12 supplements. So much for being a raw vegan.

As for Freelee. Well, it's true that she's got a flat stomach as she constantly reminds her youtube sycophants, but the girl's headed for a crash.

Nonetheless, they are amusing.
I don't find him dangerously thin at all, and largely on the sheer account that I have seen men thinner than him from all walks of life who've been fine--if not great--including others who've survived the rather 'metabolically derranging' racy life in the music scene. His B12 issue ties into the fact that he's had Crohn's disease since he was a teen, which he claims his diet helps him cope with, but of course, veganism ain't gonna' sort out B12 issues and any vegan protocol requires rigorous B12 and D3 supplementation. The real practical issue with raw veganism is the lost calories, poor absorption and digestive burden of the diet that often converge into a warped for of orthorexia.

Well, regardless of what they're doing now.--apparently eating cooked vegan, which is probably smart move--those two remain an amusing pair. Churning out more craptastic videos, full of inconsistent, and ridiculously ill-informed ideas to add to the already massive catalogue of absurd, head-scratching videos. Definitely stuff to laugh at if one's bored.
I didn't realise they'd fallen off the wagon and started cooking food. What next? Eggs and fish? It's a very, very slippery slope...
I haven't been as bored recently, so I am not exactly sure of the details. But apparently Freelee is having some cooked beans and whole grains along with fruit. Harley, not so much, but then there was recent noise in the fruitarian community about how they were having pasteurised juices in Thailand because quality fruit was 'hard to come by', in Thailand of all places, hah!

Yeah, it could very well be a slippery slope, although I have found that many vegans that fall off the raw wagon--who don't go paleo--tend to settle down with a mixed diet of cooked starches and ripe fruit. Matt Stone's got one of 'em, Chris Randall, as a regular contributor on his website and they've even written a book together.
Rob said…
Martin Berkhan is a good exampe of someone exceptionally lean yet when
he's relaxed (not flexing his ass off and making stupid faces), his
face/body look normal albeit really ripped.
Lighthouse Keeper said…
Durianrider seems to be making more videos about cycling and wildlife of late and less on food. He always pushed McDougal's Starch Solution book as an alternative to fruitarianism for those who couldn't go the whole hog. Despite being an extremist eater himself his popular anti-paleo videos might be the first port of call for anyone in two minds about starting a paleo diet. Sometimes it takes a comedian to drive a point home.
That is true, he has always endorsed other vegan protocols aside from Graham's version of 80-10-10, which include McDougall and Bernard.

People are seeing their switch to 'some cooked vegan food' as a sign of bigger things to come, such as a complete abandonment of high carbohydrate vegan diets altogether. A bit of a stretch, but you never know, he might really jump chip. Then again, maybe he's just refining his own approach and sticking it out because as it stands, they are still very much vegan and many could argue that cooked starches would be a healthy, caloric expansion to their restrictive raw options. He's even done videos and debates going back to 2010-2011 where he has categorically argued that no one's gotten 'obese' consuming simple foods in the form of potatoes, rice and lentils, So I do agree that despite all the white-noise that comes from his channel, there's also subtle truths between all the self-parody of his posts.

Kinda' reminds me of a recent thread over on 30BaDSucks about some vegan extolling the virtues of the diet of Kenyan athletes because the ratios came awfully close to 80-10-10 (more or like 75-12.5-12.5--big diff!), and everyone went postal about how that is so totally NOT 80-10-10 and the fact that it was omnivorous, which to be fair, was a bit of a pathetic criticism and 'grasping at straws' moment for the detractors. The real kicker being that Harley, in his typical troll-ish fashion, stepped in and pointed out the obvious that the discussion is about the ratio, and not veganism vs. omnivorous eating. Now you know you've got alarm bells runing when DurianRider becomes the voice of reason in any discussion. Lol.
carbsane said…
Yeah, there is clearly a difference.
carbsane said…
I'm not a vegan advocate by any stretch, but many of those who point to the B12 thing ought check their own supplement cabinets before pointing fingers ;-)

I think Kade's right about the "worst" thing about raw veganism -- it is very difficult to get enough calories that way to support an active lifestyle. He and Freelee are always chugging date smoothies last I heard.
Paul Casimir said…
Perception has changed so much over time. A 50s radio serial happened to be on when I was testing my alarm clock, and the actor was describing a criminal suspect as "A husky fellow, 5'10", 170 lbs!". That used to be considered husky???
Scontch Blosward said…
Who's up for Durianrider vs. Nikoley 2?
Lighthouse Keeper said…
Might be some common ground - Mr Nikoley has been on a virtually all potato diet and now is a big advocate of legumes and resistant starch in general and has referenced Dr John McDougall on his website as well as Dr Michael Greger another big wig in the vegan community.
Damn. . . Things are changing. LOL!
Other people who take supplements don't necessarily do it because their diet is purposefully low in an essential nutrient.
carbsane said…
OTOH, I used to think that kids these days were truly much fatter than "in my day". Now I would say not so much. There can be no doubt that kids raised on processed crap and fast foods have a far greater likelihood of becoming obese. This is a social issue, having to do with parental responsibility, but nobody ever wants to talk about the role of an intact family on all of this. Even my friends who had Kool Aid and Twinkies in the house were not drinking a pitcher and eating a half dozen of them because ... parents. When I take a closer look at grade school class photos, yes, there was the one fat kid. Now we have 2 or more of these outliers in some classes. But there were also a number of kids that by BMI would probably have been getting the nasty note with the report card these days. Many of these graduated HS with me and none became obese adults that I can recall. One or two remained a little chunky, the rest leaned out. And we had the bean poles too.
carbsane said…
I don't disagree Ballomar, I just think that many LC/paleo types, especially the more carnivorous one's may not be "purposefully low" in an essential nutrient, but apparently they are. The Mg "abuse" for constipation comes to mind.
I didn't know about Mg being a 'cure' for constipation. However, if people take supplements for constipation, when a well known remedy - prunes and pears, for example - would do just as well. They are being dumb.

If one's body is crying out for dietary fibre and one ignores the calls, then...what can I say...
Bris Vegas said…
James Bond - the consummate tough guy - was describe as being 6' (183cm) tall and 12 stone (168lbs/76kg) in the novels.
Bris Vegas said…
Carl Lewis has been a vegan since 1991.Serena Williams eats a raw vegan diet.

The problem is that many vegans try to eat a meat free version of a conventional diet. This simply doesn't work. A grain-free vegan diet requires the consumption of at least 20-30 serves (~5Kg) of fruit and starchy vegetables per day to obtain sufficient calories and nutrients. This is vastly more than most vegans attempt to eat.
carbsane said…
I think it's Venus who went vegan after her Sjogren's in 2011. I don't think Serena is. The RV diet is quite low in protein unless the bulk is immense. I know that Matesz did a breakdown but I don't see that being sustainable.

I suppose if someone is the lanky sort to begin with this is workable. The HG's are not big bulky people nor are traditional 80-10-10 ish cultures.
Bris Vegas said…
Sorry I meant Venus.

Humans need very little protein (0.5-0.8g/Kg/day). New Guinea highlanders are lean and muscular (there are quite a few here in Brisbane Australia) than most Westerners despite a very low protein vegan diet.

J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1980;26(3):247-59.
A pilot study on protein metabolism in the Papua New Guinea highlanders.
Tanaka N, Kubo K, Shiraki K, Koishi H, Yoshimura H.

Eating very large amounts of plant foods is perfectly sustainable. The Irish peasants ate 4Kg of boiled potatoes every day.
michelle said…
The comparison between the paleo/raw vegan blogger is kind of amazing. I never thought of it that way before. A few years ago I went low carb, which lead to paleo. Never lost weight (but I wasn't overweight to start with), and never magically cured anything else like my kinda dry skin or thin hair. It did cure incessant hunger problems I was having but I would attribute that to finally having some fat in my diet. Eventually I did get into weightlifting and found out eating enough carbs on grain free diet is impossible unless I like spending my evenings after dinner doubled over in pain from the physical amount volume of food in my stomach from all the potatoes/starchy vegetables. Pretty liberating now to have a "IIFYM" approach to eating.
sarahbird said…
You're such a glutton with your baby carrots! ;)
Stefan Lay said…
It's so easy to fall into this never ending rabbit hole, and you don't realise that all of your attempts to get well end in failure. You don't learn from the mistakes.. You decide you need to do something more drastic, like cut a whole food group out. Or get rid of cooked foods, meanwhile people eat whatever they want and are 10 times healthier than you.

I just figured out I only get about 1500 calories a day, as a man.
None of this was intentional.
I was always trying to improve my health, but look what's happened - My metabolism has been lowered, because that's science.

So, you know what... I'm going to eat what the fuck I want (and need) to.
I don't need gluten-free or any of this other shit that we're told about.
Over the past 8 years of when all of this began, I've only gotten worse (while making a deliberate effort to include lots of organic veggies, fruit, etc).