las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Thursday, October 17, 2013

The LC Dogma Duping of Robb Wolf ...

What duping?  Was he was duped, or does he dupe people?  

Roughly 10 months ago, Robb Wolf posted the first installment on his "current" views about carbohydrates in the diet:  Low Carb And Paleo: My Thoughts Part 1.  In it, Robb describes his changing views on dietary composition and body composition through his personal prism of going from highly active, running a gym, etc. to a more sedentary lifestyle involving lots of writing time.  As he relates:
I had a tough time remaining lean. I’d cut carbs…but to no effect on body composition. Slowly I realized, both by experimentation and by really looking at the literature: CALORIES MATTERED MORE THAN CARBS FOR BODY-COMP.
I have to say this was a pretty big shake-up for me. I’d assumed one could eat as much fat as one desired and STILL get leaner.
Why would he have assumed that?  Did he learn this in his undergraduate study towards his biochemistry degree?  No.  You will not find such nonsensical ideas in textbooks.  It would appear, however, that Robb has little if any formal education in physiology and nutrition, and he was taken in by the hypotheses of someone with even less relevant formal education -- a science journalist named Gary Taubes.    (Some might find this 2011 podcast interview transcript entertaining.)
As I mentioned above, when I first started eating LC, or more specifically, cyclic low carb (CLC) I was leaner than ever in my life. ... but it was my new-found energy and activity level that drove my leanness, not an inability to store fat in the absence of significant insulin. I think this is one of the most damaging messages that comes out of the LC camp to this day,
I was duped by this,
so I’m not going to do what a lot of other recovered LC writers do and make folks out to be idiots for still believing this…but, it is time to face facts.
... HOWEVER! If one manages to cram enough cheese, olive oil and grass-fed butter down the pie-hole, this is in fact, a “mass gain” diet.
This paragraph is what I've come to recognize as quintessential Robb Wolf.  He is taken in by every new or sensationalistic thing that comes down the pike -- especially if it fits in any way in with his paleo schtick.  Ahem ... Jack Kruse ... need I say more.  But when it's shown to be scientifically bereft, Robb jumps ship and points fingers.  Don't you dare question his judgment because (a) he wasn't the only one duped, and (b) any of the others that are speaking out are just doing so out of sour grapes and he's above that.  Nonsense. 

Given all of the information and legitimate debunkings of Gary Taubes out there, I do believe that it takes a special kind of fool -- mostly a self-imposed ignorance -- to still believe that carbohydrates are fattening via their stimulation of insulin and the myopic view of insulin as a fattening hormone.   Further, it takes a special kind of hubris to continue to perpetuate scientifically unfounded "hypotheses" in the face of such a mountain of contradictory peer-reviewed research clearly refuting them.   Especially the latest crop of wannabes like Jonathan Bailor, William Lagakos and Kris Gunnars all of whom have either the science creds or backing and claim to be evidence-based in their approaches.  Had they come along in 2007-9, they could be excused.  But lately?  No excuse. 

Back to Robb, he apparently got some blowback for saying he was duped.  Did he address that in a matter-of-fact way?  Of course not.  No, rather he lashed out at readers in My Thoughts On Low Carb And Paleo, Part Deux.  Reading it again now, he is angry at those who asked how he had been duped into abandoning LC dogma, not realizing that many -- myself included -- picked up on the original phrase in the context in which it was intended, and thought this somewhat of a cop-out after all that.  I don't have time to provide you with all the quotes about insulin in his book, but suffice it to say that a search the term in the Kindle version of the book maxes out the search feature at 100 hits, and that's not yet halfway through the book.  He discussed insulin a lot.  He is still mired in outdated hypotheses put forth by Taubes in GCBC from 30 years ago!  These hypotheses, rather than having been substantiated by research in the three intervening decades, have long since been discarded by all but the Science Krispie  diet gurus.  Sadly, Robb Wolf seems determined to earn his place in that hall of fame as he seems to have learned nothing from the ride he took on Kruse's ice slide.

So ... Robb learned the old fashioned way that, yes, you can indeed store fat even without eating much in the way of carbohydrate.  Who knew?  Oh, I don't know.  How about those Inuit we keep hearing so much about??   One would think that after so many embarrassing missteps and turnabouts Robb might exhibit a little more restraint in the news stories and such that he shares with his 50K+ Twitter followers and countless Facebook followers.  

The other day, he thought this was newsworthy to share on Facebook:   Could that low-fat diet make you EVEN FATTER? As experts question conventional wisdom on diets, the extraordinary results of one man's experiment.  Guess who?  Why Sam Feltham of course!!  As regulars will recall, Sam did a jokesperiment several months ago where he consumed almost 6000 cal of LCHF for 3 weeks and didn't gain all that much weight.  Nevermind that he couldn't be bothered to do the minimum diligence of any such experiment (e.g. establish weight maintenance cals, body composition, and most importantly consuming a pound of notoriously malabsorbed nuts as the entirety of his caloric surplus), in the end we really only have his word to go by and given his penchant for publicity I'd say that it is questionable at best.  I would have a hard time eating a pound of nuts per day for three weeks without any additional food, let alone all he ate.  

But anyway, so bound and determined to prove some sort of point, Sam repeated this with junky "low fat" foods.  That ANYONE is taking this seriously is truly a joke, and none of those people should be taken seriously.  But Robb?  After being duped himself, or so he claims, by these outlandish kinds of statements?  Why is he helping to spread the word that low fat makes you fatter and high fat can actually make you slimmer?  

Using such pictures as below (hotlinked from link and link, these are on the website but no longer show up in the article) to prove his case?  I know I'm convinced!


But the headline and article fails to stress that he was deliberately way overconsuming calories ... and that his "low fat" diet amounted to 140g fat per day.  Any way you butter your bread, this is not a low fat diet ... that's more than a stick of butter!  
Dramatic new evidence for this has come from a unique experiment conducted by a personal trainer from East London. As Sam Feltham explains: 'My business is helping people to lose weight, and if all calories aren't equal, that could make a real difference.'
[but later ...]
Chris Cashin also questions if he got the amount of calories he claims, and points out that the experiment wasn't at all scientific.

For his part, Dr Malhotra is keen for the results of Sam's experiment to be put on a firmer scientific footing because they could be highlighting something important.
I know the sensationalistic media is all for a good stunt, but did this Dr. Malhotra just fall off the turnip truck or something?  Does he think this has never been tried?    I'm with Cashin here as given Feltham's manipulation of photo angles etc. I'm starting to wonder if he even did the experiment at all.  Anyone can stage a weigh in and such.  The way the high fat diet is described, he ate fatty fish, meats and eggs interspersed with snacks of nuts implying these were relatively small amounts.  He claims to have eaten a pound a day for three weeks.  I find that increasingly difficult to even believe, and it explains entirely his result.   To quote Diet Doc Eenfeldt, there's something sick about eating so excessively only to poop it all out.
'I've long been sceptical of the claim that all calories are created equal,' says Sam, who's just over 6 ft tall and normally weighs 14 st (89 kg).
'I'm sure I eat more calories than I burn, yet my weight and waist measurement normally remain the same.' 
No you don't.  You're in energy balance.  Yeah, a low fat diet can make you fatter if you overeat ... and there's a reason why Feltham is back to maintenance calories with the bacon and eggs.  (Me thinks we've got a closet satfatophobe here afraid of admitting such to the keto-crazed low carbers that support him).  It is all just so ridiculous anyway.  No serious person should argue the strawman arguments Feltham puts forth.  His business is to make money off of people trying to lose weight, and as long as he has some short term success story he's happy to scam you with that.

But I digress with all of this anyway.  The main thing is that Sam has caused a resurgence of the "you can be as much of a fat and protein glutton as you want and you can't gain" meme.   

It's simply not true.  

Robb Wolf's experience was that it is not true.

He came, perhaps somewhat reluctantly, to this conclusion based on his own experience of not being as lean as he'd like just by restricting carbs and having fatty meats.  And yet an unbiased look at the scientific literature would have shown this to be the case much sooner.

So one might wonder then, exactly why, when he felt duped into believing this at one point himself, he is promoting publicity stunts by the likes of Sam Feltham.  Instead he should be cautioning his followers not to go down that path yet again. 

Perhaps Robb feels that the way to get over feeling duped is to become the duper.  Looks that way to me.  Just remember, the next time Robb Wolf says something like this:
I think this [the inability to store fat in the absence of significant insulin] is one of the most damaging messages that comes out of the LC camp to this day.
... that he is part of that camp perpetuating damaging ideas based on flawed science.



67 comments:

David Madarro said...

In the long run, all this circling around and making things up will only backlash them harder once more and more people start to wake up.

I have no problem with misguided people who have good intentions (which I initially thought this Feltham dude had, now I'm not so sure), but once it starts to become a matter of personal pride and money, that's when it gets ugly.

That's the beauty of the Internet, remember in Shawshank Redemption when
Tim Robbins said: "The ocean has no memory"?

The Internet is the opposite, it sees and remembers everything! ;-)

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Ah, DailyFail... Always trying to play catchup with The Sun when it comes to who can accumulate the largest library of yellow journalism.

Lol@140 grams of fat intake in any hypercaloric context being passed off as low fat. On the other hand, excellent demonstration of what a bizarrely high-everything-junk food diet can accomplish.

Wuchtamsel said...

These pictures are so pathetic... I can't even find words for it.

carbsane said...

I know, right? They were in the original article but gone now. I wonder why?


Back when I weighed around 110 in my eating disordered youth, I could grow twice that belly with one good 6000 calorie binge!!

carbsane said...

And yet ... it seems that the LC memes are on some rotating queue for getting recycled and there's always someone on the internet that's never seen or heard it before :(


Feltham is a "nice guy" with something to sell ya. Beware!! And by the way, welcome!

carbsane said...

Thanks JeffM ... glad you finally jumped in! The more the merrier.


Jimmy's podcasts have clearly declined in quality. Last week he had a podcast fan come on to discuss her favorite podcasts? Half of them are infomercials for new books and/or product launches, and the like. Even with his bias, gone are the days of a good hour of meaningful discussion, even if it was sometimes dogmatic.

carbsane said...

BTW I find it hilarious that Jimmy used this pic on the podcast website. This is 3 years old, from the time when Sam was lifting seriously eating more carb. Yeah, his current status is quite the advertisement for his diets.

David Madarro said...

Hi Evelyn, I know, but what I meant was, the proof is at least there and it isn't going anywhere, which is good for educational purposes, if you will.



I know a lot of people who say "well if you fall for this quackery, you DESERVE to be fooled!!" - Which I disagree with.

Nutrition, training, and health is not easy for someone who are new to the scene, so how can they know that what they are reading is bullshit? If they have no background in what they're introduced to whatsoever?



Forget about searching for "unbiased, undogmatic, clinical scientific literature etc.", that's not how newbies approach Google when they're looking for answers.


The first things they are exposed to, is unfortunately not Alan Aragon, Lyle, or this place. And that's the problem, how do we get to them, before these gurus catch them in their web? Million dollar question right there, literally, and there's a lot of people, who profit off this ignorance who are NOT interested in solving that problem :-p



Regarding those pictures, LMAO, I can make the same before & after pictures within 10 hours. All it takes is a little macro / water manipulation, a quick workout to get the muscle pumping. Playing with the camera angle like he did isn't necessary, and it gives it away much easier ;-)


Those pictures where he grew taller were also great entertainment! :-)

Wuchtamsel said...

While I think it's pretty obvious he is just forming a hollow-back and a hunchback on the second pic and awkwardly tries to hide it with his arm, the most sickening probably is the ill-founded narcissistic facial expression on both.

carbsane said...

He was an aspiring male model ... if that helps :)

Wuchtamsel said...

That explains everything... ^^

carbsane said...

He was supposed to be interviewed for Jimmy's book. Wonder what happened to that? (Or his vow to market the hell out of the 2014 cruise to make it and Jimmy Moore a resounding financial success).

carbsane said...

You are right! The info is there. I always say that AFTER being exposed to what I write (or others like Alan, Lyle and more) still fall for it, then they deserve it. Lyle gave me flack on FB for my posts on the paleo water scam, but here's what I think. If I don't call them on it, few others will. And I basically told Lyle what I just said, if they find this stuff from a link that I provided, and buy in anyway, they deserve to be scammed.

Nutrition, training, and health is not easy for someone who are new to the scene, so how can they know that what they are reading is bullshit? If they have no background in what they're introduced to whatsoever?

Forget about searching for "unbiased, undogmatic, clinical scientific literature etc.", that's not how newbies approach Google when they're looking for answers.




This is my fourth year of blogging and for the past 3.5 I've been told that I'm blogging on old news and I should just let it go already. Ha! This shit never dies so I keep on blogging. I also am told time and again that my style sucks and I'd have more fans if I just stuck to the science and never called out bloggers for going on neo-nazi white supremacist radio programs, promoting diets they don't follow, misquoting scientific literature and flat out making shit up while touting meaningless credentials. Well ... I don't do it for this reason, but the exposure does help to get the word out. According to my stats, people do land here when they Google "so and so fraud" or scam or quack etc. So I consider this helping people in my own way.


What can we do? Spread the word which is one reason I spend more time with FB lately and am going to do some other stuff if I can find a way to eliminate those pesky little real-life catastrophes keeping me from having enough uninterrupted time to devote. So share, like, retweet, etc.

charles grashow said...

Robb was/is working with Dr Tara Dall who has published a few papers with Dr Thomas Dayspring. She believes that LDL-P and ApoB are of utmost importance. How would Jimmy edit the interviews to show that Robb and/or Tara beleive he's healthy?

carbsane said...

He couldn't which is why I think that got nixed. Though Jimmy did manage to white wash many of Dayspring's views :(

Jethro Bodine said...

Low carbers have to be pathetically desperate to accept as science Sam the Sham Feltham's "experiments."

JeffM said...

That's an interesting point Evelyn. How is it that they don't see the incongruity of their posts over time? I think they're so narcissistic that they think no one will mind. As David Madarro said here, the internet remembers everything.

JeffM said...

I have noticed the same decline in quality as well. He would often take a 'hard line' against people who advocated something other than Low-Carb as well as those he viewed as the nutrition/weight loss establishment (often one and the same), but he would invite such folks to appear on his show and at least listen to their pov. His podcast is becoming more like a sideshow where is Jimmy the barker, or like the Ron Popeil of Paleo/LCHF.


I think all of this go low-carb/paleo and you don't have to worry about calories is a mass fantasy. As I have been deluded by this idea in the past, I understand; I want to lose weight and eat more for goodness sakes, but it just doesn't seem to work that way.

Jethro Bodine said...

The comedian also set up a "shrine" to Sam in his website.

Delphi Morgan said...

Whilst I agree the posing of those two photo's are different, Sam clearly looks "softer" in the second as if he's carrying more s/c fat. Is he exagerating his stance to make him look fatter in the 2nd? possibly, but undoubtedly as self publicising as he is, I doubt he has the gall to outright dupe his audience deliberately. I think he's probably a naive but well meaning not too bright individual trying to make a point. Hardly a crime.

charles grashow said...

What would Robb Wolf say about Jimmy Moore's diet?

https://www.facebook.com/LLVLC
Jimmy Moore 10 hours ago

Speaking of surprise, I got a nice one last night when my blood ketone reading was off-the-charts good--3.6 mmol/L! That's the highest level of blood ketones I've seen in months (but nothing to be concerned about regarding ketoacidosis since that tends to be VERY high levels of beta-hydroxybuterate near 20.0) and follows a day of eating delicious foods that included grass-fed butter, pastured eggs, raw cheese, sour cream, MCT oil, heavy cream, and one of the new Double Chocolate Chunk Quest Bars

http://www.questproteinbar.com/ingredients

carbsane said...

He's promoting his bootcamps, so he's to be suspect from the get go. I don't doubt the weight gain -- 3 weeks of about 2500 cal/day surplus ... when you're that lean it shows up quickly. What I question is his comparison to high fat. Cream and butter.


The two angles hide the rib cage that I have no doubt is still visible if he struck the same pose. It's just almost a caricature at this point.

Lighthouse Keeper said...

One wonders why the low carb community take this man's self controlled experiments at face value and yet dismiss something like say the original China study ( that is the original Cornell/Oxford universities project ) out of hand. Anecdotal evidence self reported by one individual with a vested interest v. tens of thousands studied by independent researchers. If the Oxford/Cornell study is as fatally flawed as many say then Felthams must be dead in the water.

carbsane said...

Not to mention all of the metabolic ward studies NuSI dismisses as "not good science" merely because they are small (but n= greater than one) or of insufficient duration (many were longer than 3 weeks).


In any proper study of this nature, weight maintaining calories are determined first. Not estimated by some almost always faulty equation. Such equations are good for estimating, but individual variability is so great, they are just that -- estimates. A glance at the scatter plots from which these various equations were derived is all one needs to come to that realization.

David Madarro said...

Lyle gave you flack? Doesn't sound like him :-p

Tbh I didn't even bother reading about the paleo water thing yet, just those two words put together made my bs alarm go berserk.


I think it's very difficult to make a good living in the health industry, unless you have some sort of extreme, sensational approach to it. i.e. selling people over-hyped products (like "superfoods") that they clearly don't need.

The truth about weight loss and a healthy lifestyle isn't very sexy, and it's generally a hard sell.

"This is my fourth year of blogging and for the past 3.5 I've been told that I'm blogging on old news and I should just let it go already. Ha! "

I'm glad you're not letting it go, because if you do stop, Google will very quickly dump your rankings in the search engine, unfortunately that's how SEO works, competition for top key words is fierce.

Regarding going after bloggers, I kind of agree that sometimes you overdo it a little (calling out) but at the same time, this approach is pretty much universally effective to attract a bigger audience.


When MMA fighters get personal before their fights, it always makes the buzz bigger = bigger audience :)



The reality is, that pure scientific literature in itself gets boring, I'll admit this, so I can only imagine how regular people think of it.


"Hey, anyone up for some pubmed reading today??! NO??" ;-)


This is the main reason that the bullshit will never go away.

People want easy solutions, not heavy data, and preferably solutions that don't involve much thinking.
To be fair, this is somewhat understandable, since everybody suffer from 'information overload' nowadays, too much shit going on to really go deep on any topic.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

taking a break from a death march project and and what do I find ...

Can't wait for Freddy baby [0] to lash out and accuse Wolf of scarfing down the SAD the whole time.

"You can't gain fat on low carb. period. end of story.



Wolf told me he was on the diet then a half hour after the workout I saw him at the restaurant beside the gym inhaling a plate of low fat whole wheat spaghetti, tons of sugar, zero fat yogurt and zero fat fruit.

You can't gain fat on low carb. period. end of story.



Period. Seriously. I really mean it. Period. My diet degree tells me so. Really. "



Anybody active on Freddy's forums want to get the popcorn out and troll hime?

[0] Hahn, that is

carbsane said...

LOL! Was having fun with Freddy on FB yesterday. It is oddly therapeutic ;-)

grinch said...

They need to do the ketogenic overfeeding experiment in a metabolic ward and put this issue to rest. Why isn't NUSI making this the very first study, since this is probably the most hotly debated claim made by the low carbers?

carbsane said...

Yeah, how unlike Lyle :-) I have to admit, I just like the guy despite his demeanor. His science is good, so for the most part I overlook the rest. And unfortunately he is right in some ways that any publicity is good publicity. Still, I have to weigh the balance between no criticism or criticism that may make someone else a buck.


More later ....

Karen Norris said...

Ev does this and a previous post re Enfelt (sp) mean you are now thinking for diabetics Metatarrian is best?

LWC said...

Thank you for finding and posting this.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I am reminded of a controversial quote is that arguably misattributed to a certain dictator. You know, the quote about how one death is a tragedy while a million deaths are mere statistics.

Bris Vegas said...

"Let’s get rid of the nonsense seen all over the internet that
atherosclerosis is an inflammatory disease, not a cholesterol disease."

What about all those Kitavans with high cholesterol and ZERO infarcts?

Maybe the good Doctor should talk to a veterinarian.The ONLY mammals that ever develop atherosclerosis are monkeys, apes and guinea pigs. The are also ONLY mammals that can't synthesise Vitamin C. [As a matter of interest the official US nutrition guidelines for captive chimpanzees include 1000mg of supplementary Vitamin C per day.]

NO carnivore develops atherosclerosis no matter how much saturated fat or cholesterol it consumes.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Quest bars. . . In his case, aren't the franken-foods the stuff that are usually followed by weight troubles and nonsense about protein being chocolate cake?

Karen Norris said...

Makes perfect sense! And you just stated something in a way I hadn't thot of before. One is or is not diabetic. Just activated makes it known who is. Thanks!!
I read your blog maybe not daily but have read them all. Just not scientific enough to chime in :)

charles grashow said...

"NO carnivore develops atherosclerosis no matter how much saturated fat or cholesterol it consumes."


Does this mean that man is not a carnivore?

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

This means Kitavans are super carnivores. ; )

Gamabunta said...

1. The Kitavans` cholesterol isn`t actually all that high: 174 mg/dL on average for men ( couldn`t dig up the average cholesterol for women, but from what I remember it`s somewhere in the low-mid 200s) - a far cry from what most Westerners (typically low-carb dieters) mean when they refer to their "high cholesterol" (and ramble on and on about its meaninglessness).
2. When he talks about atherosclerosis as a "cholesterol disease", Dayspring primarily refers to particle counts (LDL-P/Apo-B), not "high cholesterol" per se.
All in all, (older) Kitavans appear to compare quite favourably with Western control groups as far as "blood lipids" and associated parameters are concerned:"Fasting serum total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and apolipoprotein B were 10-30% lower in Kitavan males > or = 40 and females > or = 60 years (compared to healthy Swedish reference populations)" (Kitava study, Lindeberg et al.).
3. While it is true that the Kitavans apparently don`t have nearly as many heart attacks as Westerners, they do develop atherosclerosis ( which is certainly an intriguing disconnect).
Conclusion: The Kitavans and their "ZERO infarcts" are irrelevant with regard to the question of whether atherosclerosis is an "inflammatory disease" or a "cholesterol disease"; your comment is thus a non sequitur.

Pinky Artichoke said...

Back in the day (2008?) before Matt LaLonde or John Wellbourne or whomever talked sense into him, I remember Robb Wolf dismissing my argument that the sprinting in ice hockey requires the glycolytic pathway as me just "not wanting to put down the bagels". He also referred me to the Protein Power Life Plan when I asked for something closer to the primary literature on this stuff (!). My science background is as strong as Wolf's if not stronger (and that is NOT saying much), and it's frustrating to me to see him not only fail to read or think critically on a lot of these things but also be dismissive of others who do if they're not part of his dude network.

Bris Vegas said...

@Gamabunuta:

The Masai actually have severe atherosclerosis - but no infarcts:

Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow.



Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26–37, 1972.

The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy.These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men.

Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with
lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions.
The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease.

It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis
by physical fitness which causes their coronary
vessels to be capacious.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

For both the Kitavans and the Masai, especially the latter, activity and vascular adaptation through robust activity are also confounding factors.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Great_Diet_Smackdown.aspx

"Furthermore, this link on the Masai shows that they are incredibly active and have an average BMI of 20.7! Obesity is correspondingly uncommon. In addition, their blood pressure is excellent: an average of 119/71. And no wonder: they follow their cattle on foot through various grazing areas and are extremely athletic and fit. George Mann, a researcher in the 1960's, actually studied the cadavers of hundreds of Masai and found that they actually had as bad or worse arteriosclerosis than the typical Westerner. [1] His conclusion was: "The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosisby physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.""

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

For both the Kitavans and the Masai, especially the latter, activity and vascular adaptation through robust activity are also confounding factors.

From the peak testosterone website:

"Furthermore, this link on the Masai shows that they are incredibly active and have an average BMI of 20.7! Obesity is correspondingly uncommon. In addition, their blood pressure is excellent: an average of 119/71. And no wonder: they follow their cattle on foot through various grazing areas and are extremely athletic and fit. George Mann, a researcher in the 1960's, actually studied the cadavers of hundreds of Masai and found that they actually had as bad or worse arteriosclerosis than the typical Westerner. [1] His conclusion was: "The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosisby physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.""

charles grashow said...

Th Bat Shit Crazy brigade strikes again - the same 29"experts" or a new batch

http://www.amazon.com/Keto-Clarity-Jimmy-Moore/dp/1628600071/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=ur2&tag=livilavidalow-20

Leading low-carb diet blogger Jimmy Moore and researcher and internist Dr. Eric C. Westman join forces again to explain the powerful therapeutic effects of a ketogenic diet—one that combines low carbs and high fat intake—which has been shown to improve a wide range of diseases, from cancer to Alzheimer’s to autism. Low carbs alone aren’t
enough, and Moore and Westman tell you why.

Have you looked at low-carb diets and nothing else as a means to lose weight? What if you learned that combining a low-carb nutritional approach with a high fat intake produces a powerful therapeutic effect on a wide variety of health conditions that most people think require medication to control? That’s what Keto Clarity is all about. Jimmy Moore, the world’s leading low-carb diet blogger and podcaster, has reunited with his Cholesterol Clarity coauthor Dr. Eric C. Westman, a practicing internist and low-carb diet researcher, to bring you the crystal-clear information you need to understand what a ketogenic diet is all about and why it may be the missing element in your pursuit of optimal health. This book includes exclusive interviews from twenty-nine of the world’s foremost
authorities from various fields, who explain why low-carb, high-fat diets are good for you and lay out the mounting scientific evidence for a myriad of health and lifestyle issues that can be improved with a ketogenic diet, including: - Cancer - Diabetes - Alzheimer’s disease - Parkinson’s disease - Epilepsy/Seizures - Bipolar disorder - Depression - Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) - Other neurodegenerative conditions - Aging - Autism - Migraines - Exercise performance - Weight loss - And so much more! Plus, you’ll get full details on Jimmy Moore’s year long n=1 scientific experiment of nutritional ketosis, in which he used sophisticated blood testing technology to track and monitor hisproduction of ketones to achieve rather remarkable effects on his weight and health. Keto Clarity gives you a whole new perspective on the work that the late, great Dr. Robert C. Atkins started in earnest with his promotion of the low-carb approach beginning in the 1960s. That revolution continues boldly in this book designed to shift your paradigm on diet forever!

carbsane said...

Oh Lord help us all. Probably some overlap but what's the significance of 29? Must be something diabolical.

carbsane said...

I do believe Robb has an inflated sense of his own science background -- probably bolstered by being seen as the "geek" around folks that have none -- and it's probably the biggest problem that he has with me because he knows I see right through his bullshitting. It must be unsettling to have such a lack of resume while portraying himself as some sort of expert in nutrition, etc. I've even seen him claim having been a cancer researcher!!


It is really surreal how he has reached some sort of status as an "expert" in anything. I mean is he even certified as a trainer or gotten certified in nutrition even by some ancillary 501c3 (like Diane Sanfilippo is)? Yet he talks about developing a certification?? Something very wrong there. But I digress ...



Funny thing about Robb is that he uses catch phrases and repeats them over and over. One such is referring to the "hard charging athlete". Well, he is on record stating that said athlete needs more fat (circa late 2008) and now more carbs, yet he has claimed in comments on this blog that his recommendations have not changed much if any. Robb's web reaches far and wide in this community. Most "owe" something to him and will not speak ill of the Paleo Baby Jesus!

charles grashow said...

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197131

Effect of a High-Fat Ketogenic Diet on Plasma Levels of Lipids, Lipoproteins, and Apolipoproteins in Children

Results At 6 months, the high-fat ketogenic diet significantly increased the mean plasma levels of total (58 mg/dL [1.50 mmol/L]), LDL (50 mg/dL [1.30 mmol/L]), VLDL (8 mg/dL [0.21 mmol/L]), and non-HDL cholesterol (63 mg/dL [1.63 mmol/L]) (P<.001 vs baseline for each); triglycerides (58 mg/dL [0.66 mmol/L]) (P<.001); and total apoB (49 mg/dL) (P<.001). Mean HDL cholesterol decreased significantly (P<.001), although apoA-I
increased (4 mg/dL) (P = .23). Significant but less marked changes persisted in children observed after 12 and 24 months.

Conclusions A high-fat ketogenic diet produced significant increases in the atherogenic
apoB–containing lipoproteins and a decrease in the antiatherogenic HDL cholesterol. Further studies are necessary to determine if such a diet adversely affects endothelial vascular function and promotes inflammation and formation of atherosclerotic lesions.

COMMENT
The major finding of this study was the marked increase in the apoB-containing lipoproteins, VLDL and LDL cholesterol, after 6 months of the ketogenic diet. This was accompanied by both hypercholesterolemia and hypertriglyceridemia, which were so extensive that only about 1 in 6 of the study population had either a cholesterol or triglyceride level in the acceptable range for a pediatric population. Although the influence of age, sex, weight, and ratio of fat to carbohydrate plus protein in the diet was controlled for in the analyses, the results of this study cannot be extrapolated to the general pediatric population.

The magnitude of the changes also considerably exceeds those that might be expected to occur with any laboratory drift with time. The elevation in the LDL cholesterol level in response to the ketogenic diet was a general characteristic of this study population and occurred independently of the baseline LDL cholesterol level or of the degree of seizure control (data not shown). Only 10 boys and 15 girls did not manifest any increase in their LDL cholesterol levels. The dramatic increase in the mean total cholesterol level found empirically was close to that of 57.1 mg/dL (1.48 mmol/L), predicted from a computer analysis by using Keys' and Hegsted's formulas of healthy adults on a high-fat low-carbohydrate weight-maintaining energy intake.27

Most patients have stopped the ketogenic diet after 2 years and the temporary use in childhood is unlikely to be associated with a long-term increase in risk for coronary artery disease in adulthood. Conversely, prolonged use of a hypercholesterolemic diet throughout childhood and adolescence is likely to be atherogenic. For example, healthy young men aged 20 to 25 years who had a cholesterol level of more than 210 mg/dL (5.44 mmol/L) had 5 times the rate of coronary artery disease 30 to 40 years later
than those who had a cholesterol level of less than 170 mg/dL (4.40 mmol/L)

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199302043280504#t=articleMethods
Serum Cholesterol in Young Men and Subsequent Cardiovascular Disease

Now - Jimmy and his minions will say that the study used the wrong fats so it doesn't count

Gamabunta said...

Where did I mention the Maasai?
Anyway, we were discussing the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis, not the pathophysiology of MI .

charles grashow said...

http://www.zeezik.com/video_dSLf4bzAyOM_Dr-Eric-Westman---Duke-University-New-Atkins-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Weight-Loss-and-Health.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toLvGpk3HLE
The Science and Practice of Low-Carb Diets
Duke University's Dr. Eric Westman answers viewer questions about the
Atkins diet during a live "Office Hours" webcast interview, January 19,
2012. Westman is the director of the Duke Lifestyle Medicine program and
co-author of "The New Atkins for a New You." Moderating is James Todd
from Duke's Office of News and Communications

charles grashow said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXbV0gxRfPo
Jimmy Moore Ketosis Brisbane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN9Fi_9tCeQ
Jimmy Moore - 'Nutritional Ketosis'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8gHK6T4j68
Jimmy Moore Discusses Nutritional Ketosis On 'The Dr. Lo Radio Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc96Lk1VVS4
Jimmy Moore Nutritional Ketosis Lecture On The 2012 Low Carb Down Under Tour of Autralia

charles grashow said...

Again - the Kitavan diet was relatively low in saturated fat.



http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html

"The residents of Kitava lived exclusively on root vegetables (yam, sweet potato,taro, tapioca), fruit (banana, papaya, pineapple, mango, guava, water melon,pumpkin), vegetables, fish and coconuts. Less than 0.2% of the caloric intake came from Western food, such as edible fats, dairy products, sugar, cereals, and alcohol, compared with roughly 75% in Sweden. The intake of vitamins, minerals and soluble fibre was therefore very high, while the total fat consumption was low, about 20 E% s was the intake of salt (40-50 mmol Na/10 MJ compared with 100-250 in Sweden). Due to the high level of coconut consumption, saturated fat made up an equally large portion of the overall caloric intake as is the case in Sweden. However, lauric acid was the dominant dietary saturated fatty acid as opposed to palmitic acid in Sweden. Malnutrition and famine did not seem to occur."

http://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-lindeberg.pdf
Cardiovascular risk factors in a Melanesian population apparently free from stroke and ischaemic heart disease: the Kitava study


http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/4/845.full.pdf
Age relations of cardiovascular risk factors in a traditional Melanesian society: the Kitava Study

charles grashow said...

Bris Vegas

You said "NO carnivore develops atherosclerosis no matter how much saturated fat or cholesterol it consumes."

So how can the Masai have severe atherosclerosis??

charles grashow said...

A Physicians’ Guide to the Atkins Diet
Eric C. Westman,
M.D. M.H.S.
Duke University Medical Center

How Much Fat to Consume in a Day

It’s essential to consume enough natural fats to provide satiety, encourage lipolysis and make foods tasty. But there’s no need to overdo it. A typical day’s intake might include the following:

2 tablespoons oil for dressing salads and cooking
1 tablespoon butter
1 ounce cream
2–3 eggs
2–3 servings of meat, poultry, fish or shellfish
10 olives and/or half a Haas avocado
2 ounces nuts or seeds
(after first 2 weeks on Phase 1)

George said...

The Kitavan diet was higher in SFA than the relevant authorities recommend. That is why Lindebert characterised it as a high saturated fat diet even though it was low-fat overall. "saturated fat made up an equally large portion of the overall caloric intake as is the case in Sweden."

George said...

Arguments about dietary factors tend to overlook the role of air pollutants, solvents, heavy metals and other kinds of toxins in promoting circulatory diseases.
How well a culture's fires are ventilated may have more to do with its rates of atherosclerosis than the food it cooks on them.

Gamabunta said...

Factors that fall within the scope of environmental medicine certainly do play a role, though the magnitude of their pathophysiological influence defies precise quantification, I think. Nevertheless, the available data related to the Kitavans (or the Maasai, for that matter) don`t exactly bolster the low-carber "pet theory" that atherosclerosis is impossible in the absence of significant "systemic inflammation" .

carbsane said...

This is where terms to describe fats are used in misleading fashion. For the most part, when we are talking sat fats in Western diets, we are talking about long chain FA's, specifically palmitic. For example, lard is roughly 40% sat fat, and 25% palmitic (18C stearic makes up the bulk of the remaining 15%) . Tallow (beef) is almost 50% sat fat, with about 25% and 20% respectively of palmitic and stearic. By contrast, coconut is about 90% sat fat but just over 10% of that is palmitic (8) and stearic (3) while the remainder are MCT's.


The Kitivan diet was 17% sat fat but the predominant but that means only 2% or so of the total dietary cals would be from LCSFA. Meanwhile target Western sat fat at 10% if mostly beef and pork, where 90+% is LCSFA you're talking 9% LCFA ... more than 4X the content of the Kitivan diet. And that's if you're hitting 10% total calories!

George said...

Lindeberg's Kitavans smoked like trains, not sure about the Masai.
Systemic inflammation is a hard thing to define and this is not usually attempted in diet studies.
The other theory is that atherosclerosis is normal adaptive response to "fair wear and tear" damage, but that oxidation and inflammation exacerbate it.

George said...

Here in New Zealand we are always being warning about coconut cream, high in SFA, calorie dense etc.
To have to make a distinction between MCTs and LCSFA, why that would blow their minds.
The Kitavans aren't the only putatively healthy hunter-gatherers or whatever, just the ones who eat the most % carbohydrate. Maybe if they combined that much starch with 17% butter they wouldn't do as well. But maybe the ancient Gauls would disagree with that.

Gamabunta said...

As far as I remember, the Kitavans are described as being "light smokers"; still, you probably have a point there. Also, the finding that a certain degree of atherosclerosis can apparently result in highly variable "clinical downstream effects" (as suggested by the alleged lack of CHD/MI in Kitavan/Maasai populations despite substantial atherosclerosis) is intriguing, I`ll admit.

charles grashow said...

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/interview-with-kitavan.html

How many meals a day do Kitavans eat?

People on the island eat mostly two meals a day. But nowadays, breakfast is mainly comprised of tubers (yam and sweet potato and greens all cooked in coconut cream and salt) and dinner is the same with the inclusion of fish as protein most often. In between these two meals, lunch is seen as a light refreshment with fruits or young coconut only to mention these two popular ones. In between the morning and the evening, we mostly eat fruits as snack or lunch. Generally speaking, there are only two main meals per day, i.e breakfast and dinner.

What parts of the fish are eaten?

As islanders, we eat almost every creature and body part of a sea creature. Especially fish eggs, it is one of the favorites of children.
They always prefer it burnt on the fire and consumed greedily. Every part of the fish is eaten except for the feces, gall bladder, bones and the scales.

Do Kitavans traditionally eat pork, and if so, how often?

We do eat pork but not that often because pork meat is chiefly
regarded important on the island. We only eat pork on special occasions so I'd rather say that pork is only eaten occasionally. In most cases in the middle of the year when the yams are harvested (yam harvest celebrations and towards the end of the year for certain rites and activities). Otherwise the everyday meal is always topped with fish.

Are there any other foods that are commonly eaten on Kitava that I might not be aware of?

Bananas, pineapple, corn and watermelons. For watermelon and corn, they are plentiful especially at this time of the year.

charles grashow said...

The specific fatty acids that raise LDL-cholesterol the most are myristic (C14:0) and lauric (C12:0) found in butterfat and in tropical oils (coconut and palm kernel oil)

http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/135/9/2075.full
Among the SFAs, stearic acid (18:0) appears to have a neutral effect on LDL-C, while
lauric (12:0), myristic (14:0), and palmitic (16:0) acids are considered to be hypercholesterolemic.

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/healthy-eating/food-myths-debunked-all-saturated-fats-raise-blood-cholesterol.html
Palmitic Acid: Palmitic acid is found in palm oil, palm kernel
oil, coconut oil and meat and dairy products. This saturated fat has
been shown to raise blood cholesterol levels and cause a low HDL (good cholesterol) to LDL (bad cholesterol) ratio

Myristic Acid: Myristic acid is found in palm oil, coconut oil, dairy
products and whale oil. This type of saturated fat is also known to
raise blood cholesterol levels

Lauric Acid: Lauric acid is found primarily in coconut oil and palm
kernel oil. There is debate as to what effect lauric acid has on
cholesterol levels. Some studies suggest that lauric acid will slightly
increase blood cholesterol levels but lower triglyceride levels. It’s also thought that lauric acid improves the ratio of HDL to LDL cholesterol.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

"they " already have responses for some of these.


The most famous is probably Rosedale's "thyroid must go low to prevent protein loss" yeah ... along with increased cortisol ... at first blush, that looks like it works ... not.

charles grashow said...

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1199154

Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss Maintenance

Cara B. Ebbeling, PhD; Janis F. Swain, MS, RD; Henry A. Feldman, PhD; William W. Wong, PhD; David L. Hachey, PhD; Erica Garcia-Lago, BA; David S. Ludwig, MD, PhD

charles grashow said...

http://www.cleveland.com/cooking/index.ssf/2013/10/talk_about_a_paleo_diet_what_l.html

Talk about a Paleo diet: What Lucy would have eaten all those years ago

Su says Lucy was an omnivore with teeth much like ours, only bigger. Put the food down and smile for the camera, Lucy.

1. Fruit: "Fruit is high in sugar and a great source of energy. Like many primates today, Lucy would have liked fruit – enough to climb trees to gather them."

2. Leaves/flowers/stems: "These contain protein, essential minerals and vitamins, and variable amounts of carbohydrates. Leaves were likely an important part of Lucy's diet."

3. Sedges: "These grass-like plants are high in nutrition, especially protein. Lucy would likely have dug for their tubers and collected their seeds to eat."

4. Grass seeds: "High in carbohydrates, grass seeds would have been readily available, although labor intensive to gather."

5. Meat and insects: "There is no direct evidence that Lucy and her relatives ate meat or insects, but we know that meat is a highly prized, if uncommon, food item for modern chimpanzees. Insects, particularly termites, are an important part of their diet. It would not be surprising if Lucy and her relatives consumed them for necessary protein and fat content. While Lucy could have hunted small game, it is much more likely that she scavenged meat when she came across fresh animal carcasses."

Vaughan Starr said...

I posted a question on Sam's Youtube page, asking if, with the addition of all the additional carbs he had noticed an increase in RM's in the gym. He was polite enough, explaining that he didn't weight train during the last high fat/protein trial and that he wanted to keep variables consistent on this front. Going by what a mate who switched from very low carb Paleo to high Carb fruit to cure a skin infection had to say on his experience, he would have had loads more energy.
I'm not a scientist, I just watch/read different materials and try to form a rough view of things. Perhaps Sam is legit. I recall the BBC doc Why are thin people not fat? In that group, which was monitored, results were across the board. Too, if the results were true (Sam's), would it mean that you could just reverse it? When trying to lose fat, wouldn't the body react quite differently (taking itself to be in the midst of a famine), than, when it was exposed to a surplus of cals each and every day?

Gamabunta said...

Anyway, I don`t really buy the "atherosclerosis=normal adaptive repair"-theory, seeing as people with familial hypercholesterolemia don`t generally suffer from more "oxidation and inflammation" than other folks, but do develop significantly more severe atherosclerosis due to higher particle counts that does result in damaging clinical outcomes with alarming frequency compared to the average person (despite their "favourable" ldl-pattern).

carbsane said...

There's something very fishy about this guy! https://www.facebook.com/sam.feltham/posts/10151923072588433


Seriously though, he's just trying to make a buck with a schtick. But he's definitely entrenched in that too much to be an evidence-based source. He's nice enough for sure. How much of that is his persona versus his real person one doesn't know.

Post a Comment

Moderation is currently on. Thanks in advance for your patience.