las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Thursday, May 15, 2014

Dear Incestral Health Community ...

You know who you are.

Please ...  I have but one favor to ask.   Can you just stop making shit up?    That's all.  It's simple.  If eating a particular way works for you, then say so, and be done with it.  Don't go making up scientific "facts" for why when you just made it up.  Really, it's OK to believe that turtle toenails added to your mammoth toe jam smoothie improves your brain function if you want to.  It's fine with me if you think adding a half a stick of butter and a glob of coconut oil to your coffee is healthy, but a packet of sugar will kill you.  Go right ahead and believe you're a ketoadapted obligate fat burning beastie caveboymanchild if you insist.   Be my guest and believe that grains rot your brains, wheat swoles your waist and gluten is Satan's excrement.  Just stop scamming other people with this nonsense in the name of science.

Thankyou.

P.S.  I know I said one favor, but while I'm asking ... Could you also quit using ridiculously inane reasons to avoid particular foods and such?   Seriously, if you have to resort to "you can blow up a rat's intestines feeding it raw beans" style arguments to convince people legumes are toxic, you need to find another line of work.

Double thanks.

53 comments:

Thumbdriver said...

Lol, I was thumbing through The Paleo Solution last night and got to the part about legumes and dairy (yes, one and the same blurb)... "I could have included a chapter similar to the one I did on grains for both dairy and legumes, but to what effect other than burying you with repetitious material?" Why bother with facts at all when you can just skip them entirely? ;)

John Smith said...

The same chemicals that are found in modern wheat are used in the production of nuclear weapons

Ben Kennedy said...

I knew there was something funky with that gluten....

charles grashow said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUn3gf-0VlY

charles grashow said...

http://primaldocs.com/opinion/three-ways-to-tell-if-you-have-a-gluten-sensitivity/

Some but not all patients with gluten sensitivity experience digestive symptoms, such as:

Reflux
Bloating
Gas
IBS
Diarrhea
Constipation
Stomach pain

Other patients only experience symptoms in other areas of their body, such as:

Frequent infections (viruses, bacteria, and/or yeast) in any location (sinuses, bladder, skin, or other location).

Pain such as headaches, migraines, joint pain, muscle aches, fibromyalgia, and/or pelvic pain.

Neurological symptoms like dizziness, tingling, numbness, and weakness.

Mental/emotional symptoms such as brain fog, decreased memory, lack of focus, anxiety, depression, PMS, mood changes, and sleep issues.

Skin rashes such as hives, eczema, acne, rosacea, dandruff, warts, and psoriasis.

Autoimmunity such as Hashimoto’s, Lupus, M.S., Rheumatoid arthritis, Ulcerative Colitis, Crohn’s, and others.

Other common health issues association with gluten sensitivity include:

Fatigue

Weight gain or difficulty losing weight

Hair loss

Nutrient deficiencies (iron, vitamin D, B vitamins, and others)

Fertility issues

Thyroid issues


Did they leav ANYTHING out??

rudyInLA said...

Well yes the chocolate killed the dog, but soon after that it's blood pressure and small LDL particles both went down quickly.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I use The same chemicals that are found in modern wheat to make something much deadlier- gas.



I did a bit of a horizontal mushroom cloud in an elevator yesterday

Sanjeev Sharma said...

PHD's such a weird mix of pandering to some dieters' worst proclivities (chocolate) and pandering to the other segment of the market that needs needless complexity (the PHD sugar and pork arguments)

River Rance said...

Bravo Evelyn!! You have more balls and bigger,I might add, than Wolf,Taubes,Fat Head,Sisson,Lustig, Eades, and sissy Moore combined.....no disrespect to your gender(just a euphemism), but kudos to you and your efforts to challenge the wing-nuts of bro-science....or for that matter.....no science.

carbsane said...

See! Inmates here always looking at the bright side of things ;-)

carbsane said...

I just loved this and laughed so hard at the end. Love that easy grip butter sleeve.

carbsane said...

Only that the gluten intolerance train just derailed!!


http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/gluten_sensitivity_may_not_exist.html

carbsane said...

Thanks RR!

Susanne said...

But did you see that the Grokfather has quietly announced that maybe phytic acid isn't so bad after all because gut bacteria? http://www.marksdailyapple.com/7-things-you-had-no-idea-gut-bacteria-could-do/#axzz31sj5A1jf


So quietly I don't think even the MDA forums have caught it yet. They seem to have come up with plenty of other reasons why beans are bad though, including "empty calories" (butter and bacon are such micronutrient powerhouses in comparison, apparently) and autoimmune whatevers. So this probably won't matter to them, although it does set up a loophole for legume rehabilitation later should Mark find it expedient.

rudyInLA said...

Not only has the train left, the passengers are often clueless as to why they got on it! http://www.cinemablend.com/pop/Watch-Gluten-Free-Dieters-Try-Explain-What-Gluten-Jimmy-Kimmel-64026.html

Josh said...

I have reservations about posting here knowing just how anti-paleo your frequent commenters are, but what the hell. You annoyed me.

I've had a generally good time reading your blog and Twitter for a while now, and you've helped me un-brainwash myself from low carb "science," but not all paleo talking points are outright lies. There's at least a small grain of truth, however mischaracterized, in leaky gut, which you proudly proclaimed to be a made up disease on Twitter. That came as something of a surprise to me considering almost everything I research relates to intestinal permeability, endotoxemia, innate immunity, and the resulting low-grade chronic inflammation. Transepithelial electrical resistance, tight junction proteins, toll-like receptors, endotoxins; these are all myths? Can you link to that one paper which definitively shows everything I've been reading is just made up bullshit lies? Or have you been stuck in the armpit of Pubmed reading about insulin secretion from beta cells instead of researching important issues like inflammation and the etiology of obesity and chronic metabolic disease?

I find it wholly ironic that you completely discount a line of research you would absolutely love. If you think you have scientific ammo against the low carb community now, do a search for "metabolic endotoxemia" or "high fat AND gut flora". You seem to be so stuck in debunk-Taubes mode that you've missed the forest for the trees. If you really want to talk about science and direct the conversation in a more interesting and productive direction, have a look at the recent literature on innate immunity and low-grade inflammation. Cordain jumped on the intestinal permeability and endotoxemia bandwagon early, if you've ever read The Paleo Diet, which is most of the reason for his seemingly random food restrictions, and there's been a lot more research since then, and surprise surprise, it does not vindicate high fat diets. It really bothers me to see you so blithely dismiss such a fascinating area of research simply because of the messengers.

carbsane said...

The Grokfather LOLOL

Susanne said...

That's what they call him in the forums, I am not that clever. :-)

BTW remember when I was trying to come up with terrestrial food sources with a positive Omega 3:O6 ratio? Check this out: per 100 g --

Australian lamb, foreshank (lean + 1/8" fat): O3 178 mg - O6 375mg (1:2)

pinto beans, cooked, without salt: O3 137mg - O6 98mg (1.4:1)

kidney beans, cooked, without salt: O3 301mg - O6 191mg (1.6:1)


Greens of course come out best, especially the brassicas and chenopods:
Brussels sprouts, raw: O3 99mg - O6 45mg (2.2:1)


Spinach, cooked: O3 92mg - O6 17mg (5.4:1)

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4297/2

carbsane said...

If the mechanisms of leaky gut were shown to be true, then there would be a legit diagnosis by now. Realize that the medical establishment is not so backwards that it recognizes fecal transplants for C.dificil . In a way that where we are looking at things differently. Why hasn't it panned out? I don't buy conspiracies because there would be ample opportunity for drugs to treat at every turn.


The first link is about inflammation and macrophage infiltration. I'm not really sure what you're asking and what that has to do with leaky gut. Adipose tissue secretes various inflammatory adipokines.


I do not believe dysbiosis has been causally linked to obesity except with the germ free mice. There was a study in humans in Sweden a few years back where glucose tolerance improved. I have never been able to find it for the long term followup -- whether weight loss eventually took place and/or glucose metabolism improvements held. My gut (get it?) feeling is that there is not a causal relationship dysbio -> obesity, and rather is the effect of overnutrition and obesity -> dysbio. This likely plays a role in glucose metabolism via the incretin system.


I guess I'd have to ask you how going on a PSMF or early insulin treatment would reverse diabetes if it were caused by dysbiosis. GBP too, though possible antibiotics could play a role (doubtful such a predictable one though).

I'm kinda swamped with other stuff at the moment to delve into the gluten thing. Hope you understand.

Josh said...

I actually have a few studies that contradict the idea that obesity precedes dysbiosis. And forgive me, I'm familiar with the research so I automatically see "low-grade inflammation" and think endotoxemia and TLR4 and cytokines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23569246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23987498
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/57/6/1470.full

Take your time with the gluten study. I'd be happy if you discussed it at all. It ties in with this other research.

dancer80 said...

Wow that is a turnaround for him. Better late than never, and I suspect this is done in preparation for him coming around to the idea that beans and legumes can be healthy part of diet. Like that is some kind of major discovery. There are scholarly articles and research which confirm phytic acid to have cancer-preventive qualities, many of these studies were on soy. The Japanese regularly eat a lot of soy and adzuki beans, and they are one of the healthiest populations in the world, while consuming such high levels of phytic acid or "anti-nutrient" as MDA puts it. Maybe a lot of the herd there at MDA are having long term commitment issues with low-carb lifestyle? Not even the occasional post-workout sweet potato is doing it for them these days. So in comes legumes to save the day.

StellaBarbone said...

He posted a link two weeks ago to an archeology paper that mentioned that a neanderthal skull has been found that showed evidence of cooked grains in its teeth. I'm not sure how that could have happened since neanderthal had been extinct for many millennia before the birth of Grok who was certainly never exposed to grain. Maybe Ken Ham can help out.

StellaBarbone said...

Of course, "anti-nutrients" like HCAs in meat are a negligible problem not worth worrying about compared to the "evils" of lectins.

dancer80 said...

Sad thing is many young women follow these blogs and diets religiously, not knowing that young women are the ones most adversely affected by LC diets. Three of four major studies have found increase in adverse cardiovascular events in young women following LC diets, especially one which is heavy in animal protein, in the long term. From my own misguided foray into LC notwithstanding, I wish more publicity would be given to studies such as this:

http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e4026

Screennamerequired said...

I once heard that poly unsaturated fatty acids were used by the illimumanti to wipe out the jewish race.

carbsane said...

OK ... one of those articles is in Chinese. Do you read Chinese?

Human gut microbiota plays a key role in the development of obesity. Intestinal flora can regulate energy absorption and nutrition metabolism, increasing the energy harvesting from diet



That's an awfully bold statement that I think was made far more definitive than intended by translation. If not, then they should have been called on it.


The problem with this is energy absorption and good vs. bad, etc. If you have more good bacteria, you may absorb a small amount more energy. If you have more bad bacteria, THEY may "burn" a small amount more energy and you fart methane.

Humans are not rodents. We are not hindgut fermenters. This is a big issue.


MOre later, but you are confusing intestinal permeability with "leaky gut". IP doesn't mean that undigested matter and bacteria get into the blood stream. Find me some studies showing elevated lectin levels in the plasma of humans suffering from various illnesses. Do such exist?

MacSmiley said...

Thanks for that link.

Josh said...

My bad on the Chinese article. As far as energy harvesting goes, gut bacteria may have more of an effect on that in mice, I agree. As for lectins, I doubt such research exists, and I don't agree with the typical characterization of "leaky gut" in the paleo community. However, a more permeable gut does lead to greater translocation of endotoxins, which promote low-grade inflammation, along with a high-fat diet. I don't think lectins are the worst offenders in that regard, if they affect intestinal permeability at all. I've found a high-fat diet promotes endotoxemia and inflammation more than anything, and personally eat a low-fat, high fiber paleo diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23298961
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22732959
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22326433

Bris Vegas said...

A full Professor with dozens of peer reviewed nutrition papers (Cordain), a neurosurgeon and dentist (Kruse) , a veterinarian and physiologist (Peter Hyperlipid) a bunch of MDs (Eades etc) a Harvard PhD medical researcher (Shou Ching Jaminet), a Harvard psychiatrist (Emily Deans MD) are obviously not qualified to comment on anything about anatomy, physiology, microbiology of nutrition. They should just shut up and listen carefully because Evelyn is ALWAYS right.

Everyone must bow to to the intellectual might of former laboratory technician and junior college mathematics tutor Evelyn because she has read some outdated undergraduate textbooks. She KNOWS that she is always right and everyone else is a fraud. No room for nuance. Don't bother reading any research published after 2000 because the 1990s textbooks are infallible scriptures. The facts are set in stone.

In the world according to Evelyn food is burned directly in the mitochondria - no need to worry about all that tricky anatomy and physiology. No one is intolerant to any plant protein and all gut and metabolic diseases are mere hypochondria.

Don't worry about fact checking because everyone (actually only Evelyn) knows that ALL cells use glucose and it is a myth to claim that any cells use fat for primary metabolism. The textbooks are all lying when they state that cardiopmyocytes use lactate and FFA as their primary (80%) energy source or that colonocytes rely on SCFA for energy.

The gut microbiota don't count because humans are not animals. We are engines that burn fuel according to a simple textbook formula.

carbsane said...

Do you feel better? Allow me to respond point by point.

Cordain - PhD Exercise Science -- not nutrition, and certainly not anthropology

Kruse - ????? Seriously? Jack Kruse. Exactly what that I have written about how off the wall this guy's ideas on nutrition and "quantum biology" are you complaining about?

Peter? - He's a vet, not a physiologist. He also routinely manipulates data and misrepresents things.

Eades? - His undergrad background was civil engineering or somesuch. It's no surprise he misrepresents things incorrectly as a matter of routine.

Shou Ching Jaminet - LOL - When I hear HER discuss the diet in the book that bears her name we'll chat. As it stands, it is a man with a PhD in applied physics that is doing the nutritional talk and his research skills leave much to be desired.

Emily Deans - I don't recall every challenging her one way or the other on science ... she doesn't write much about it and I'm not particularly interested in evolutionary psychiatry.

They are all qualified to comment, but it helps if they get things right, no? Instead of just making shit up or ignoring large swaths of contemporary research and research done by scientists in the various fields?

Now, as to your characterization of me as a former lab tech, you are mistaken. I have over a decade of real scientific research under my belt and it is obvious that most of the "big names" including one "former research biochemist" have done little if any such research. What is Cordain's *primary* research record? Not ethnographic atlas smoothiepology. Actual research?

Outdated text books? Are you for real? I'm not the one who cites 1960's texts or who wrote a book with less than 1% references post 2000. Are you reading he same blog I'm writing? I mean most of what I blog on here is post 2000, much of it post 2010. I have a collection of text books that are generally newer than 2005 as well, though it is remarkable how well *SOME* of the older ones hold up under revision.

Please don't put words in my mouth about metabolism. You are hopelessly ill informed as to my opinions and knowledge as you are in general based on your commentary I've read over the years. I did not say gut diseases were hypochondria. You said that. I have said that "leaky gut" as put forth in the alt.med. community is quackery. How about they start with something simple. Can we measure levels of these substances or antibodies to them in people so afflicted? I haven't seen much on this. There's a doctoral thesis out there for WGA that indicates otherwise. Others are free to read, distill and disseminate information. DON'T MAKE SHIT UP.

Where have I EVER stated that there are not cells that do not use glucose as primary fuel? Heck, Kresser links to a paper I put in the "library" here about lactate, and I tweeted this out a little while ago https://twitter.com/CarbSane/status/456384248459440128

I've made quite a few posts here on SCFA ... did you miss those? I didn't say gut bugs don't count, but several detailed analyses have determined that in humans they play a minor role in energy balance. Perhaps rather than trolling here you could help me find the Swedish (I believe) study where they did fecal transplants in obese diabetics a few years back. At the time there was some improvement in glucose metabolism but no weight change. There was mention of followup -- never heard more. Does the almighty blogblogBris have a clue what I'm talking about? Care to expend some skull sweat to help me out rather than pissing on the floor here? Thanks!


Don't worry about fact checking? As you can see with me letting your stupidity through, I welcome challenges here and if someone wants to engage me on the facts I'm always open to that. Somehow they'd rather kvetch for days over what size pants I wear or why I don't post selfies every other day.


You're pathetic.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Bump! Josh, I'm interested in possible adverse effects of excessive intestinal permeability, regarding the risk factor for developing autoimmune diseases. Can excessive intestinal permeability allow excessively-long peptide chains from incompletely digested proteins to pass through the gut, stimulating an inappropriate autoimmune attack? Ditto for allergies?

Regarding your above comment about the adverse effects of a high-fat diet, would a diet providing ~80% of energy from fats (but free from gluten & lectins) be any cause for concern?

Josh said...

Based on what I've read, I wouldn't consider an 80% fat diet to be healthy or anti-inflammatory, even absent gluten and lectins. I actually haven't found any papers indicating lectins (aside from WGA) affect intestinal permeability or inflammation at all. High-fat diets actually promote greater endotoxemia during lipid absorption in the small intestine, which would theoretically lead to a greater inflammatory response, as endotoxin is what binds to TLR4. I've seen research that shows different fatty acids have different effects on inflammation, with omega-3 and monounsaturates being less inflammatory than SFAs and omega-6, but that's already fairly common knowledge.

As for autoimmunity, that's exactly what happens in celiac disease. Gliadin binds to tissue transgluttaminase, which triggers the autoimmunity. I'm not sure if any other lectin would have that effect. And I'm not sure how it would to allergies. Sorry.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I was asking about an ~80% fat diet because of this -> https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152118669537864

I was wondering about the effect of excessive IP on AI diseases other than coeliac disease, such as Eczema, Dermatitis herpetiformis, Sjögren's syndrome, Cerebellar ataxia, Multiple sclerosis, Type 1 Diabetes, Rheumatoid arthritis, Asthma, Lupus erythematosus, Autoimmune thyroiditis, LADA etc.

By allergies, I meant the rapid adverse reaction to a repeat exposure to something e.g. peanut protein.

Josh said...

I don't think Hahn is doing himself any favors eating like that, though at least it's more varied and has more plant matter than Jimmy Moore's diet. If he wanted to do that more healthily, he could eat mostly seafood and a lot more non-starchy vegetables. As for autoimmune disease, I don't think there's any research focused specifically on IP and autoimmunity, if only because IP isn't itself a causative factor in disease. It's a transient response to eating. I think Cordain unfairly extrapolated the disease process of celiac disease to all autoimmunity with the lectin fear. I've gone looking and haven't found good evidence that lectins themselves are the causative factor in inflammation and autoimmunity, and - depending who you ask - it isn't lectins in wheat to blame for inflammation, but the gluten.



There's research on the hygiene hypothesis/parasitic infection and autoimmunity/inflammation, which I think down the line is going to be very illuminating.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24744099

Food allergy is a tough issue and ultimately may be unavoidable.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863871/?report=classic


Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

carbsane said...

As you can see, I'm happy to host these sorts of conversations here. Now how about you show me a little respect and properly apologize for your tirade against me. It was utterly uncalled for. I'll wait.

Josh said...

I apologize. I lacked context and made an inappropriate rant. I was too embarrassed at the time to apologize in that thread.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Thanks. I was focusing on excessive IP as a possible cause for several AI diseases, prompted by Cordain's "Cereals - Double-edged sword" article. There are studies referring to increased IP & type 1 diabetes, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22290506 , which made me wonder about other AI diseases.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

IP is directly implicated in only one autoimmune disease, Celiac Disease. However, IP is a symptom of all autoimmune issues, according to Alessandro Fassano. But IP does not cause such autoimmune issues; in fact, Fassano is very emphatic about this. IP presumably results from autoimmunity and is not a causative factor.


Cordain has it wrong regarding the inflammatory potential of cereal grains. We've been eating grains for thousands of years prior to any uptick in autoimmunity. Now gluten from the modern wheat could be involved in the increasing incidence of CD. However, it's not implicated in any other autoimmune issue. Having said that, since IP does seem to reign if you are autoimmune, most people claim their symptoms improve when they stop eating gluten and dairy, where supposedly casein is similar in structure to gluten and give rise to antibody attack from molecular mimicry. Now that's the whole rationale behind the autoimmune protocol that calls for eliminating gluten and dairy.


I have no problem with this autoimmune protocol when food elimination is limited to the offending agents. I have a problem when these Paleo and low carb morons start cutting out all carbs as part of such protocols, as carbs are "inflammatory." If you cut out carbs when you're autoimmune, you will directly affect mucosal immunity and put stress on your thymus, potentially affecting t lymphocyte functioning. That could not only lead to immunodeficiency but further proliferation of autoimmune issues. If you have RA, for example, the next issue that will piggyback is Sjogren's, then Lupus, then Hashimoto's, then T1. Cordain knows zero about autoimmunity. Terri Wahls is a GP who's only authorized to treat veterans. She's doing a great deal of harm because if an autoimmune follows her ketogenic AI protocol, the weight loss-induced reduction inf metabolic inflammation will temporarily abate autoimmune inflammation. Over time, that will worsen symptoms and enable other autoimmune issues to piggyback. She's lucky she's not treating any autoimmune patients, else her ass will be sued and quarterly antibody tests will show that her diet is worsening, not improving, autoimmunity.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Do you know why food sensitivities are widespread in Paleosphere? It's because of carb restriction. Sudden food sensitivities and other issues like rhinitis result from immune deficiency, which result from VLCing. The standard protocol is, you cut carbs, see some metabolic symptoms disappear, but then you develop food and dust sensitivities that you never had before, you wonder what's going on. Start reading PaleoHacks or MDA and you see everyone is coming down with weird food sensitivities and you start thinking, I must cut the carbs even more, cut gluten, cut dairy, nightshades, egg whites and soy. Then you see your symptoms improve somewhat. But then, when you've gone full hog Paleo with all its restrictions and practically on a zero carb diet, you contract autoimmunity, usually low T3 first, which may eventually give way to Hashimoto's, or Raynaud's, which may progress to RA, Sjogren's or even SLE. It's happening in Paleosphere everyday. Just read some of the forums and how people are coming down with immune deficiency and autoimmunity. The diet that you adopted to become healthy is giving you lifelong and irreversible conditions that you may have to deal with until the day you take your last breath.

Josh said...

I completely disagree about these being "food sensitivities" at all. Take it from a guy with IBS, it can get to the point where it feels like literally all it takes to destroy your body is a grain of sand. That's why people are cutting out foods left and right. I even cut paprika out of my diet at one point because it's classified as a nightshade. When your philosophy is shaped by the belief that compounds in plants cause inflammation, you're going to restrict what you consider to be possible problem foods. Fast forward to today, my philosophy is shaped by actual research into IBS and intestinal inflammation, and lo and behold, after all the needless food restriction, what I really needed all along was some Florastor. If you consider where a lot of paleo dieters come from, either a low-fiber diet of processed foods or an absurdly high fiber vegan diet, which invariably relies on legumes, it makes a bit of sense that adopting a high-fat diet rounded out with pounds of FODMAP-heavy roughage could make someone feel like hell.

But it's not just my perspective that changed, it's the perspective of the whole community. Check out the resistant starch cult and the influence it's had. A newbie to the Primal Blueprint can't quote Mark's old blogs or his book on his own forum without being run out of town. Maybe you're right about immune suppression, and I know the gut and the immune system are closely linked, so maybe I'm just arguing the other side of the coin, but this all reads like needless scare-mongering. Either way, I don't support a typical low carb paleo diet. :/

Hello_I_Love_You said...

How is it possible that this is all related to IBS, which isn't exactly easy to pin down. What makes you think they're not food sensitivities that you develop as your diet starts restricting carbs and other supposedly food toxins? It's not scare-mongering? You want me to quote you sample threads from PH or MDA? It will take me 15 minutes. People are coming down with bizarre reactions to foods that they used to tolerate and often to dust, airborne materials, and other particles that induce rhinitis or sneezing symptoms while Paleoing. Here, the usual Paleo these people follow is the carb-restricted kind. Btw, if you apply Cordain's and Wolf's Paleo as they're written, you basically end up with a VLC diet. Unless you load up on fruits, you're VLCing, possibly not ketoing but could be teetering widly on the edge. In fact, Cordain used to also mention about the thyroid effect of going too low on carbs but he also deleted it a la Eades. What am I getting at? These guys all have something hide. Food reactions are one thing, low thyroid is another. But the common denominator is immune dysfunction, whether autoimmune or immunodeficient. Yes, the immune system basically resides in the gut so it's entirely understandable. But starvation-induced immune dysfunction, brought about by severe carb restriction, is a fairly wide-known phenomenon that breaches mucosal immunity.

Josh said...

I would like some example threads if you don't mind. And I'm interested to read more about starvation and immune dysfunction. Most of what I see is people attributing newfound bloating/fatigue/indigestion to a "detox" or "carb flu," which is nonsense. I've been there and figured it out; it's nothing more than poor reactions to fiber. It's always carbohydrates and never meat, from what I see. What I was referring to as scaremongering was your claim that the autoimmunity brought on by low carb diets could eventually lead to T1D. When has that ever happened?

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Thanks!

Hello_I_Love_You said...

I mentioned T1D as a piggybacking effect of autoimmunity, since such issues cluster one after another and take their time doing so. Actually T1D piggybacking on a pre-existing autoimmune issue is rare compared to other diseases; you test for T1 antibodies once and you're done. It's usually child-onset. For most Paleo, the issue is Raynaud's, which masks itself as low T3. There is no ab for Raynaud's and it will progress to usually rheumatic autoimmunity given time. That could be pretty serious as many connective-tissue autoimmune diseases are systemic and could infiltrate your internal organs and blood vessels; conditions like SLE and systemic scleroderma are life-threatening. The next most frequent is obviously Hashimoto's, which has close affinity with rheumatic diseases. Basically you develop one and then the other piggybacks within a span of 5-10 years. So if you're worried about a low thyroid and low T3, you might be worried about becoming hypothyroid, because you're told T3 is a thyroid hormone and you're low and you could then become subclinical, then test positive for Hashi's which is 90% of low thyroid. Well, the bigger threat is really joint-related autoimmunity which can take its time to manifest clinical symptoms. You're not gonna test for antibodies when you're asymptomatic. I bet you, many of these guys are probably antibody-positive for such rheumatic diseases right now. Alternative medicine is thriving in Paleosphere because of the low T3 that results from all the carb restriction; then these quacks, NDs, DCs, DOs can prescribe bioidential hormones to appease their clients who're left out in the cold by conventional medicine. But the issue is not specifically thyroid-related but generalized immune and hormonal dysfunction. If you're low T3, chances are good you're also going low on T and FT and high on cortisol, which also famously dysregulate from carb restriction. Paleo, in other words, is Alternative Medicin'es cash cow. The gravy train will run as long as low-carbing is letigimized and it will stay current for long as immune and hormonal symptoms are vague and cannot be accurately pinned down.

Josh said...

You clearly know more about this than I do, so let me ask you a couple questions. First, is it your thought that the increased risk of autoimmunity on a paleo diet comes from excessive fat, or insufficient glucose? Just clarifying, because it seems like the latter.

But it's my understanding through research that it's the high fat intake that would have the largest impact on the immune system and inflammation through greater endotoxemia than you would see from a high carbohydrate intake. Is this only half-right? Logically, eating less fat and more carbhoydrates would reduce endotoxemia and inflammation, which would resolve the Raynaud's phenomenon, but in that scenario, it's the reduction of fat that would be therapeutic.

I guess that's pretty much the same question. Could you fill in some gaps in my general knowledge?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23985302
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24834253
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717075

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Insufficient glucose. Glucose = mucosal immnity. Glucose deficiency = mucin deficiency and dry out symptoms of mucous membranes. Dry eyes, esophagus, colon, and digestive tract. That is what you see in malnutrition; you become susceptible to infections through pathogens. Now, the gut bacteria imbalance is a new thing, admittedly. But you don't need gut dysbiosis for immune dysfunction. A stressed out thymus itself is sufficient so induce dysfunction. And immune dysfunction is basically the mirror image of hormonal dysregulation. Low T3, Raynaud's, T, Cortisol, etc. are linked to immunity and perhaps gut microbes that contribute in varying ways as well. But you don't need to introduce this guy bacteria angle to show that VLCing will induce immune dysfunction.

Having said that, most people become autoimmune via SAD. Most autoimmunity starts with genetic factors and metabolic symptoms frequently accompany the onset of Hashimoto's or RA. In fact, you can say that about 50% of the American population has autoimmunity or is in the process of developing one. Autoimmunity and immunodeficiency are notoriously difficult to diagnose. You need a specialist and even then until you start showing clinical symptoms, you're on your own and that's why Alternative Medicine is thriving. What VLCing does is get you over the hump; it could accelerate the manifesting of clinical autoimmune symptoms, could directly be linked to T lymphocyte dysfunction.

Art Ayers is a low-carb PhD but started acknowledging this recently.

"I was shocked to learn that there were some paleo (meat and veggie) eaters who were getting cured with resistant starch. I didn’t know that some were sick and, as I said in a previous post, I would not have guessed that starch was good for anything, but spikes in blood sugar ... People get sick on paleo, because they don't feed their flora. Gut flora are needed to supply vitamins, short chain fatty acids and immune system stimulants. If you don’t feed your flora you get vitamin deficiencies, gut inflammation and autoimmune diseases (Treg deficiency). It is very important to remember that feeding your flora means matching the soluble fiber with the existing flora. Many people lose species of gut flora as they change from diet to diet, eat processed foods lacking soluble fiber or use antibiotics. The loss may be permanent, but need not be. Food intolerance and most “allergies” merely reflect missing species of bacteria, and introducing new bacteria fix the problem. Lactose intolerance, for example, can be cured by eating live yogurt. Similarly, many immunological problems, such as autoimmune diseases, result from species of gut bacteria that are needed for the development of the immune system, which takes place in the lining of the gut in response to gut bacteria. New bacteria need to be introduced to fix the deficiency and diet alone is not enough. ... Just to be clear; meat-exclusive paleo can lead to autoimmune diseases, because of deficiencies in gut flora diversity/species and adding back soluble fiber can only cure the diseases, if the bacteria needed to digest the fiber polysaccharides are still present or are reintroduced."

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2014/02/paleo-gut-flora-repair.html



Like I said, you don't need the gut flora angle to establish all this. The evidence was there before. We have the statistics from the patient populations of the Eades, Bernstein and Cordain's own comments which show that there indeed is a huge skeleton in the LC closet.

Josh said...

Thanks for the response. I'm neither a supporter of alternative medicine* nor low carb, so I don't really have anything to debate. But I will reiterate that the tide seems to be turning in the paleo community regarding carbohydrates, starting with the resistant starch craze. Hopefully it sticks. Nothing wrong with fighting the good fight against low carb dogma, but I'm always questioning the degree of its influence these days..



*with the admission that leaky gut approaches something resembling out of context truth.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Yes and no. The LC influence has waned certainly but it will persist since (i) the allure of weight loss is too strong if you're morbidly obese, (ii) it is seen as the only way to maintain BG among diabetics, and (iii) it is seen as a cure or reversal of (a) autoimmunity (a la Wahls), (b) neurodegenerative conditions like Parkinson's and Amzheimer's (a la Perlmutter) and (c) cancer (a la Seyfried). These people will trade away their life savings and other aspects of health for momentary palliative relief from their desperate conditions. The allure is too strong and the initial reduction of metabolic inflammation is too plausible for these people to think otherwise. And the sales pitch is slick and rooted in personal experiences which add a power emotional dimension. Wahls: My MS crippled me and I could not get out of my wheelchair. But now, after I minded my mitochondria, I can bicycle 20 miles. Many tear drops. If you have MS, can you be rational about this and say, "Ok, let's think about this. is Wahls really making sense here or should I go full hog ketogenic to rid myself of MS"? The allure is too strong and who can blame desperate people.

Lisa said...

Was it just florastor that cured your IBS? Did you make other diet changes too? I've been working on reducing fodmaps but I'm sad to give up beans and broccoli and cabbage.

Josh said...

I haven't cured it, unfortunately, but my health plummets whenever I'm not using yeast, be it s. cerevisiae or s. boulardii. I can't tolerate beans or cruciferous vegetables, either, so I feel your pain. Sweet potatoes are one of my favorite foods, but I can't digest them. :/

My general tips for IBS, though, if you're interested: Drink luke warm/hot water with lemon juice, eat oatmeal, adhere as well as you can to a proper day/night cycle, and reduce psychosocial stress. A poor lifestyle usually punishes me more than a poor diet. Diet-wise, I can tolerate rice, potatoes, pineapple and plantains as my primary carb sources.

LWC said...

The effects of low carb on the thyroid is something that interests me. But what is the role of the thymus in adults? I've read that it tends to transform after puberty (into fatty tissue) and doesn't have a role.

Lisa said...

Thanks so much for the advice Josh. I'll be looking for those yeasts. At least there's plenty of starchy carbs I can still eat. I was looking at a book in the bookstore 'Digestive Health with REAL Food' that addresses FODMAPs and inflammation and looked pretty cool until I saw Robb Wolf did the introduction. I put it back on the shelf as fast as I could. I blame the paleo gurus for leading me astray. I used to have no trouble digesting any of these foods before my paleo/low carb misadventures.

Gina Licul said...

A therapeutic Ketogenic diet modeled after the Johns Hopkins protocol has ostensibly healed my partner of debilitating migraines for 6 months now. He used to get them 4-5 days a week like cloc work for over 30 years.

Previously only trip tans could abort his migraines. Now, adherence to a Ketogenic diet has relieved him of migraines

Please offer insight as to why that is. Perhaps I can optimize his diet even more

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