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Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Tuesday, May 6, 2014

The 2014 Reversing Diabetes Knowledge Summit

If you've been around the internet the past couple weeks or so, you're aware that it is apparently Summit Season!  Lots of videos (really audios) that you get to listen to free as a marketing pitch.  Nothing inherently wrong with this, but many of the recent ones have really gotten to the point of ridiculousness.  I mean Jack Kruse was supposed to do a talk for a weight loss summit ... along side Jaminet, Bowden and the Alphabet Soup Couple (the Caltons)?  Ben Greenfield?  Mr. Keto-bonking triathlete is everywhere these days -- fat loss, thyroid, diabetes?  This man sells superencoder bracelets and magic water drops!  What the ......   

So yesterday, the "2014 Reversing Diabetes Summit" began hosted by "Dr." Mowll, and ... get this ... Jimmy Moore.  Forget Jimmy's lack of any credentials or credibility to be hosting such an event, let's look at Dr. Mowll:
He graduated from Brandywine High School, the University of Delaware, and Life University in Atlanta, Georgia with Summa Cum Laude honors.


Wonder what his degree from UDel was in?   Life University?  Chiropractor school!    I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of back crunchers masquerading as medical doctors and nutrition experts.  Oh ... sorry, this guy is also a "Diabetes Educator" which means he completed some "classes" from an unaccredited organization towards some certification, the requirements for eligibility ranging as far and wide as having an advanced degree in social work, being a clinical psychologist, a certified sports nutritionist or being an optometrist or podiatrist.  Yeah cuz when I need new glasses I figure getting some diabetes education to go with that sounds like the perfect two-fer special!  He's also a Certifiabeed Functional Medicine Practitioner.   If anyone truly wants to worry over the state of medicine in this country, realize their real physicians can get Continuing Medical Education (CME) credits from attending stuff put on by this organization and Taubes lectures.   Have a degree of sorts in anything related and live in a state or country that licenses quackery as legit?  You're in!  

So today is Day 2 and Mowll introduces us to the diabetes basics.  All the wrong basics that the current and decades old understanding of the scientific research and the results thereof lead us too understand, but let's call it the Alt.Med. sponsored by SweetLife and participants with supplements and stuff to sell you version.   Oh and SweetLife has Health Centers ... and they have a dentist and a sex therapist on their Medical Board of Advisors.    I'd laugh, but this is diabetes we're talking about here.

Yesterday, the "keynote speaker" was none other than Ron Rosedale.  I woke up at like 3am last night because my sleep cycles are a bit off.  Wouldn't you know ... just a few minutes of L.Ron put me right back to sleep.  I'd rather not bother rehashing his talk here ...  It's the same old same old about carbs spiking insulin and leptin and yada yada ... smelly rooms, signaling defects, glucose kills.  He's semi famous here and was dubbed L.Ron for the televangelist "feel" of this photo ... so check out those links for background, etc.

Interestingly, he uses his stethoscope bio pic for the Summit, no doubt from his website, which is outdated, yet less than a decade old.  I dunno about you, but when someone fascinated with the aging process and longevity appears to be aging at an accelerated rate with their advocated lifestyle, it makes me wonder!

Keynote speaker extraordinaire for today?  Why none other than Mark Sisson.   Mowll is eager to get Mark's opinions!  Here's the video link that will remain active until 10am EST on 5/7.   My notes ... unformatted and disjointed.

Mowll: Eager to get your opinion on what is root cause
Sisson:  Complex ? Complex answer.
At root - almost all predisposed
our DNA on/off switches
inputs we create the situation
Inability to effectively use insulin
High BG
Options for high BG
1. Store excess (diet or GNG) in fat cells
2. Muscle cells become IR to allow SMALL amounts of glucose and amino acids and shunts them to fat cells -- gain weight
Could be unlimited access to sugar and refined grains
Transfats  frankenfats
IR -- flux in and out for glycogen -- lack of exercise
Mark says it can be cured
understand and embrace changes
Mowll:  it's a lifestyle change
Sisson:  T2 isn't a disease, it's a condition
Abuse genetic inputs
one day you have it
one day you don't
Get rid of blood sugar ... easier to get there again
Primal Blueprint
industrial seed oils
exercise Insulin sensitivity
be normal, massive temptations, appealing foods
conglomerate food companies evil pushers  He gets it!
behooves you to "buy in" (my words)
Mowll:   Food manufacturersprey on our primal limbic brain, you need to rise above.  Talk about EvoBio spin on glucose metabolism Mark!
Mark: Insulin original hormone
Need for life
nutrients scarce so insulin to unlock cells to allow sugar, amino acids and fatty acids inside the cell
sugar toxic in large quantities (he will use term to be synonymous with glucose)
insulin allows cells to store glucose for future use
scarce resources be able to store fat or glycogen critical to survive famine
paleo humans were hunter gatherer scavengers: roots shoots tubers berries nuts left over flesh from other animal kills
consume and store as fat, insulin plays key role
not just glucose, AA & fats too
needed to migrate forage have babies 
~14 min mark
Amazing ability to access our stored fat!
We are probably Obligate fat burners, fat is preferred fuel not so much glucose
Yes we need a little glucose to fuel brain, short bursts
Best at burning fats
we didn't find that much carb foraging
insulin went to town to convert complex carb to glucose -- increase glycogen , excess to fat stores
Food is everywhere now - brain is hardwired for over eating
2.5 million years wasn't much food
2000 cals of carb total storage, Hundreds cals of fat
Particularly large sugar = > insulin = > drive into cells
Muscle cells full then sugar (and fat and protein) = > fat cells
19 min mark
We've found a way to deposit excesses into the fat cells
at some point fat cells enough
Muscle IR = > fat cell IR = > sugar accumulates in the blood stream
circulation problems neuropathies amputations all that
Insulin - signaling responds to inc glucose, unlocks receptor
IR = > more and more insulin to try to get the cells to react
damaged receptors transfats and industrial seed oils
More and more insulin = > more resistance!
At some point beta cells get exhausted and they give up the ghost
IR cells cant hear
inject insulin to stay alive but still IR
T2's on high insulin pro-inflammatory
iflammation from high glucose
Heart disease manifests wildly in T2
Answer in most cases, newly diagnosed, cut sugars and processed carbs particularly grains, reduce unhealthy fats
produce, meat fish fowl eggs etc.
Exercise
1. move low level (walking)
2. interval training (sprinting -- 20-30 sec at a time)
3. resistance training (can be body weight)
Weeks or a month and work with physician to get off meds not a doc would rather you stay on meds.  Most physicians get it
27 min mark
Mowll:  UK 4 weeks 8 weeks lose fat reversed diabetes  <-- about="" font="" he="" newcastle="" s="" talking="">
Mark:  harbors no judgment on people's choices,blah blah blah
Why would people not choose to eat and live this way.
Mowll reads this information daily.  
31:00 back to exercise
Play
play golf without a cart
weather in malibu great in winter 2014
paddle court
ult frisbee kids play a game
37:00 back to diet
Carb curve
sedentary don't need much
reconfigure energy partitioning access stored body fat
insulin locks fat into cells can't be burned as energy
person hungry because it depends on glucose as only fuel hasn't learned how to burn ketones yet
eat glucose to satisfy the brain
sugar burner cycle more glucose stored as fat again
40:00 min - exercise burn off glycogen
cut carbs force it to burn fat < 100g/day
might get low BG for a while -- drugs lowered
brain can't yet burn ketones == ketones 4th fuel
ramp up fat burning ketone burning
re-altered your metabolism
burn off body fat less hunger
skip meals
off bg roller coaster insulin tries ... hypo blah blah blah  even energy level
Gene expression
reconfigure energy
become better at burning fat and ketones
with that comes insulin sensitivity
pancreas lowers insulin production, cells more receptive

Other stuff just before 44
Sleep  Tulum 165 people!  {Idiots!!! }  90% issues with sleep
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
artificial lights, entertainment
humans can live months without food
a week without water
die 4 days without sleep
that's how critical it is
sun exposure
more cancer w/o sun than from sun
VitD -- hormone not vitamin (I agree)
repair DNA
potent antioxidant multi --I make a great one!  Surprise Surprise
fish oil 1500 mg EPA/DHA
probiotics  gut health big story over the next two years
T2 let's do this
OK .... Congratulations if you got anything out of that.  Sorry, I just don't have the time at the moment to hit it all nicely formatted but ...  First the good:

  • Exercise.  Mark made excellent points in a field in which he is qualified to speak.  There's no need to go to the monkeys or paleo man though to discuss play or make everything into some bizarre reenactment ritual.  Playing golf without a cart is not primal.  Sorry.  But as a multi-sport athlete myself, one of the realities of adult life for me was simply lack of opportunities to play sports.  I took for granted having programs in school and college.  Once I was working and going to grad school at night, I  couldn't even take advantage of many intramural programs at work or in the community as games conflicted with classes, etc.  I miss raquetball ... damn near impossible to find, and forget a vibrant league schedule for all levels.  
  • Working with your doctor!  Surprisingly Mark did not come off all anti-doctor and even mentioned that they get it ... that docs don't really want their diabetic patients on a slew of drugs.  Can you say this more often Mark?  Likely not going to happen as it conflicts with other interests.
  • Diabetes is a reversible condition, not a disease.  Yes!  How come you don't ever talk about actually reversing it then?  Ever done research into that?  Apparently not.
Before getting to the bad I'd like to point out that buried in my notes, Mowll mentions researchers having success in reversing diabetes in 4 to 8 weeks with significant weight loss.  He is talking about what has now been dubbed The Newcastle Diet.   This link is to a hospital in the UK using this program ... responsibly!  I have blogged on this several times: 
 

Question:  Did anyone try to get Roy Taylor or someone from his research group on?  Rhetorical .....

 I realize that this presents a serious impediment to the LC industry and takes away their biggest selling point:  controlling BG without as many medications.  Because low carbers are not cured, many remain taking metformin or use supplements like berberine which does the same thing to keep gluconeogenesis in check.  They must never eat carbs, or pay the price, because LC diets suppress the early GSIS response and they see glucose levels spike (often worse than before) and remain elevated for hours.   So the cognitive dissonance with this group is high.  VERY high.  I can only surmise there's an element of jealousy for those that can reverse their diabetes and truly restore proper glucose (and fat and amino acid) metabolism.   Something is driving the hatred for anyone that dare suggest VLC is not the best and only treatment for their condition.  Diabetes is reversed AND beta cell function restored in high percentages of those undergoing rapid, significant weight loss, bypass surgery, and early insulin treatment (which is then discontinued).  The retorts that the crash diet is unstainable or that EIT doesn't "stick" for all, are not in the spirit of finding something that works for people!  The crash diet does not need to be sustained.  That is not the point.  Same for EIT which basically bails out the beta cell much like the fire department coming to pump out your basement after a flood.  If you don't change what's causing the water to come in, eventually you'll be back where you started.

Gastric Bypass & Diabetes
Diabetes Treatments
 
While gastric bypass is serious and drastic surgery, and not something I'm a big fan of personally, that shouldn't keep us from seeing the huge problem the results of the surgery on diabetics ... within days ... presents to the "exhausted pancreas" model for diabetes.  Indeed, the evidence is overwhelming that this model, put forth by Sisson and Rosedale, and no doubt to be repeated by the majority of so-called "experts" in the coming days IS FLAT OUT WRONG.   Perhaps if Mark's "worker bee" spies spent less time keeping tabs on me for what I might say that is damaging to the non-credibility of their employer, and more time reading posts like the following, he wouldn't repeat such patently false nonsense.

Insulin Secretion in the Progression of Type 2 Diabetes
The Myth of Starving Cells II
The Cause of Hyperglycemia in Type 2 Diabetes

None of these are my "opinions" or "ideas".  They are what the scientific research has demonstrated.  Verifiably, not through success stories on Mark's Daily Apple!

No Mark, the adipose tissue is not a major "sink" for dietary glucose.  No Mark, insulin resistance may not even exist in the way it is currently thought of, and most definitely does not progress from the muscle to the fat cells.  No Mark, glucose does not back up into circulation when cells stop listening to insulin, hyperglycemia is due to unchecked gluconeogenesis in the liver.  No Mark, fatty acids are not locked away in diabetics, they are relatively unrestrained (or rather inappropriately restrained) and released from fat cells of diabetics, and go on to accumulate in other cells (ectopic fat) where they exert "toxic" effects leading to dysfunction.

I could go on.  I have not the time.

Meanwhile, countless non-diabetics are following this advice and seeing blood sugars on the rise with so-called "physiological insulin resistance" hailed by some as a preferred metabolic state.  SIGH.









106 comments:

charles grashow said...

Since you previously discussed these I'm sure they will be discussed in detail at the summit

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2014/01/carbohydrate-and-diabetes.html

Realize that in this study, we're talking older, primarily women (avg. 60) who had diabetes for 9 to 31 years, NOT newly diagnosed cases.

ALL took insulin at baseline
ALL were off insulin at 6 months
ALL were consuming almost 400 grams carbohydrate (mostly starch) per day
75% were off all meds in 6 months

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dmrr.2519/full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3477773/

I mean - taking insulin dependent T2D OFF insulin on a high carbohydrate diet is important? Isn't it?

carbsane said...

Don't you know that Petro hath spoken on that? And Galina spread the word to all who would listen. Need special "macrobiotic" trained chef for that diet to work. Nevermind that (1) not really any such thing, involves cooking, and (2) even if that were the case, that has no bearing on the biochem/physiology that occurred.

charles grashow said...

And I was told
"Sometimes things come up in comments which are so good. As Johnny so
kindly obliged the person who linked to the macrobiotic study in their
request for comments:

Johnny said...

Yes I would like to comment. Please put your keyboard into a potato sack and throw it into the sewer.

And this

"Danny Albers said...Having spent time in Matanzas, Cuba, I am not sure I trust the study. Sorry if that sounds biased, but the Cuban government constantlycreates science pointing to natural methods to treat disesae to get around the fact its hideously expensive to get US style drugs in Cuba.

So I would very much like to see the replicable results expected to see in
other studies but have not had much luck finding them.

A choice quote

Macrobiotics was developed by George Ohsawa, based on two
ancient Asian theories (Yin/Yang and the Five Transformations)

Sanjeev Sharma said...

scraping the bottom of the barrel has jumped the Fonz as the Fonz jumped the shark

Kevin Klatt said...

Doing my weekly visit for some Sanity :) Keep it up, always learn from your posts!

Ancestral Chemist said...

About what you expect when you put Ron Rosedale, Mark Sisson, and Jimmy Moore in a room and record the ensuing conversation. Rosedale is really good at making his prose so incomprehensible that one is forced to conclude that he must be a being from a higher plane of existence. Is he the same way in interviews?

I really wish I'd found Jimmy Moore's blog sooner. Seeing those pictures of the butter eating might have saved me months of my life that were devoured by the VLC monster.

Wuchtamsel said...

"I really wish I'd found Jimmy Moore's blog sooner. Seeing those pictures of the butter eating might have saved me months of my life that were devoured by the VLC monster."


#2

carbsane said...

"Is he the same way in interviews?"


Yes. Worse perhaps ;-)

commonchild2 said...

Eating *those* carbohydrates did help those that had poor BG control, as seen in the huge reduction of meds needed and A1C. But many of us are using LC diets to have A1Cs that are already below the means that were reported in the studies.

Both a whole food, mainly plant based diet and a LCHF diet can help manage diabetes, especially compared to the SAD, but neither cures diabetes. Do Jimmy and the other LC gurus deny that Whole Food, Plant-based diets can be used by some diabetics to control there diabetes? Do Cambell and the WFBP crowd deny that LC can help diabetics? I think both groups don't deny it, but just think the other is not healthy in the long term.

So yes, this diabetes summit will not discuss these studies or related ones. And neither would the "other side". I think you are asking too much of these forums. How useful would it be if there was a cancer summit discussing how it is a metabolic disease if someone would keep bringing up "but it's a genetic disease - look at study x,y,z!" and vice versa. Science (and I do use this term loosely in this case ;) often takes different avenues and sometimes it's found that they are both right in the bigger picture and sometimes it ends up that one is flawed.

If you were diagnosed with Type II, how would you manage it?

On an unrelated note, as someone who is experimenting with the new Resistant Starch fad, I hope that Jimmy Moore does not do one of his n=1 experiments then posts a big list of all these things it miraculously cured. I don't think he get irony. Unfortunately, I bet he already bought his ticket and the RS train is about to leave the station. (not that I read that he has - this is just based on human nature).

rudyInLA said...

I'm still stuck on the guy with the "resonant"'bracelet and Holy Water (holy s***t! water is more like it) some of these folks should be grateful I'm not the AG in their states. That is, unless they might have wanted to learn firsthand about prison diets. I'm actually pretty furious so I'll just shut up for once.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

>Do Jimmy and the other LC gurus deny that Whole Food, Plant-based diets can be used by some diabetics to control there diabetes?

A certain woman I'll refrain from naming
Fred Hahn
Petro

high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/2014/01/macrobiosis.html

>>"There is no answer for diabetics other than LCHF."
>>"Yes I would like to comment. Please put your keyboard into a potato sack and throw it into the sewer"



I don't want your brains on my keyboard

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I perceive that for many of the LC gurus "what works for you" is short for two things

"shut up, go away while I tend to my money making sheep".

"this is NOT working for my health but IS pandering to my taste buds & "what works for you" makes me seem reasonable & may make them leave me alone

carbsane said...

You are incorrect.


Reversing diabetes = restoring normal pancreatic function and lipid/carb metabolism. This has been done -- and sustained for a period of several months to several years -- and verified -- in cases of (a) GBP , (b) EIT and (c) "crash diets" and (d) programs returning cultures like Pima to traditional (VHC/VLF) diets.


This is verified by passing an OGTT (pure glucose) and by FBG.


Managing blood glucose levels with LCHF = "remission" at best. These folks tend to see more elevated FBG's over time and will fail an OGT. NOT reversed.

commonchild2 said...

I'd be curious to hear what you (and cg, ss and other regulars here) would do if they were diagnosed with diabetes today.

1) GBP
2) EIT
3) crash diet
4) Pima or similar diet
5) LCHF
6) other

Radhakrishna Warrier said...

Frankly I don't know what GBP, EIT, crash diet etc. and have not much knowledge about what the Pima ate in the past or eat now. I was diagnosed as type 2 diabetic in 2005. Before diagnosis my diet was very close to what traditional vegetarians of the southern state of Kerala in India ate. I could do this because we get here in Canada all the ingredients of my diet that we could get in Kerala, and also because my wife is an excellent cook. :) I continue to eat the same diet after diagnosis but have reduced the quantities a little - for example, instead of eating 4 or 5 dosas I eat 2 - and increased significantly the exercise I do. My medication is solely 500 mg of Metformin a day - I am told that Metformin improves blood glucose control by mainly reducing glucose dumps by liver and NOT by stimulating pancreas to produce more insulin. My blood glucose levels are normal most of the time. A1c remains between 5.3 and 5.8.


Regards,
Rad

Tsimblist said...

I had a family history of T2DM (my father and maternal uncle). Then my Doc put me on statins and my fasting blood sugar elevated to 96. That is when I chose option 4 (Pima or similar diet). The diet was McDougall's starch based diet.


The cholesterol problem quickly resolved and I was taken off statins. The fasting blood sugar returned to the low 80s. I still lean toward a whole foods higher carb, lower fat diet. But I have relaxed considerably on the McDougall rules.

dancer80 said...

There is no basis for the statement "we are probably obligate fat burners". Sisson is basically saying the human body prefers fat as primary fuel for both healthy individuals as well as those with metabolic disease processes. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it the preferred method, even if the desired effect of fat loss and lower blood glucose level are achieved as short term goals. The sustainability of VLC diet both health-wise and habit-wise is the biggest obstacle to any claims of VLC diet as the ideal diet. Our bodies have built-in mechanisms, both instinctive and physiological, to insure survival. For instance babies are obligate nose breathers, however when under respiratory stress they reflexively breathe through their mouths, often via crying and opening up oropharygeal airway. When we have very bad stuffy noses, we instinctively breathe through our mouth too, but if our nasal passages were completely obstructed and we had to rely only on mouth breathing, how long could that continue, is it energy-conserving, other side-efftects? Eventually mouth-only breather develops atelectasis (poorly ventilated portions in the lungs) among other things. I guess I'm trying to make an analogy of this and the paleo notion of VLC/ high fat diet as the preferred diet for humans. Sorry if it's a bad analogy, but when I explain it this way to friends who are/ were on VLC diets, they seem to grasp the general idea. Relying only on ketogenesis/ gluconeogenesis as pathway to fuel the body, is example of reductionist thinking to the nth degree.

Inevitably those on VLC diets do crash, physiologically speaking. I wonder if that's why Sisson is always on his short-burst-runs-are-the-best mantra, because VLC/ high fat followers can't do more than short burst physical activities without feeling drained of energy. And I wonder why if this sort of letdown lead to his and other paleo gurus' fairly recent embrace of tubers like sweet potatoes. Because in earlier/ earliest days of paleo VLC or LC, tubers were more discouraged than encouraged. To them, starch in tubers were pretty much the same thing as sugar from sodas.

carbsane said...

For me? I'd opt for the crash diet -- it's not any crash diet, it's a protein sparing modified fast -- see the link to the PDF. I'm not a fan of such diets for the most part, but for a limited time for a specific purpose.


If I were my former self for whom such restriction would trigger binge cycle, I'd probably opt for EIT or at least go that route if any signs of trouble.


I might do Atkins Induction with leaner proteins until fasting levels (hepatic IR) restored and then I would transition to another diet.


A 10% fat diet is not really my cuppa tea, but I would try that short term and then work on maintenance.


GBP would be out of the question under any circumstances.


Any drastic diet would be to restore beta cell function. I do not believe long term low carbing which is truly high fat in maintenance is a desired metabolic state. It won't slow and could very well accelerate beta cell destruction.

carbsane said...

I have yet to see any long term low carbers -- heavy or thin -- that look and act healthy. That is, some still have the luck of genes in the first department, but the short fused, wired, insomniac is not a healthy person.

charles grashow said...

@Radhakrishna Warrier
Have you considered using Berberine instead of Metformin?

http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/2439-berberine-is-superior-to-metformin

charles grashow said...

http://vimeo.com/93316995

charles grashow said...

More stupidity

http://primaldocs.com/opinion/blood-sugar-roller-coaster/

5 steps to stable blood sugar levels (keeping you OFF the blood sugar roller coaster!)

1) Follow The Three-Three Rule. Eat a combination of the three macronutrients (protein, fat and carbohydrates or PFC!) every three hours (four hours MAX!) to keep your blood sugar levels balanced.

2) Try to never eat carbs alone. If you’re in a pinch and cannot find all three PFC, opt for two out of three. Try to find a protein or fat source to go with your carbs to soften the effect carbs have on your blood sugar levels.

3) Consume less sugar and processed foods. This may seem like a no-brainer, but it’s worth saying because these are the carbs that spike blood sugars MOST. Choose carbs that give you the biggest bang for your buck, like berries, spinach, sweet potatoes and
kale.

4) Have a bedtime snack! Having a bedtime snack consisting of healthy fat and carbohydrates is what you need to keep your blood sugar levels balanced all night long (since they begin to drop shortly after dinner. Side note: this is the only time I do not
recommend protein, since protein can interfere with sleep and sleep is important too!

5) You may benefit from MetaGlycemX. MetaGlycemX helps promote stable blood sugar levels and healthy glucose metabolism. If you are someone who is super sugar sensitive, has had issues with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar levels) or has been diagnosed with
diabetes or pre-diabetes, I highly recommend supplementing your real food eating regimen with this key supplement.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Amen, dancer. Dr. Ruscio, albeit another functinal doc, has started speaking out on this. Long-term VLC diets will eventually wreck your gut flora and screw up not only your hormones but immune system. That's why those who low-carb for too long end up with a host of conditions that in some respects are worse than the disease.

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Low-Carb-Diets---Your-Intestinal-Flora---Part-2.html?soid=1108299508055&aid=v8aSxm7XxD4



I think Ruscio got it partially right here. I know that Paleo is abuzz with the resistant starch thang and the only reason Ruscio hopped on the bandwagon is he crammed real quickly. But hormonal and immune dysfunction can be independent of the gut flora; there are mechanisms at work that do not involve your gut microbes being eviscerated.

Paleo Nouveau said...

I think part of the disconnect with the Paleo/ LoCarber's is that they incorrectly view the amount of fat storage as an indicator of "preferred" fuel for the body. Simple biochemistry tells us it's the fuel we use at rest or in an aerobic type activity. Can we conjure up walking long distances foraging? Looking for water? Shelter? What about inability to find food? Our adaptation to store fat and utilize it in this way does not mean it's the preferred fuel when running a marathon at a brisk pace. Nor is it preferred when you eat enough calories that are nutrient rich. Eating high fat is not associated with any of the longest life expectancy societies anywhere.
It may "feel" right but science and the evidence tend to say otherwise.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

You know I've been hearing about this guy Bernstein who's been VLCing and making his patients VLC for like eons. I've heard that he is sick as a dog, literally, suffering from multiple immune dysfunction and his patients, too, as well, are almost all hypothyroid, cold hands, have autoimmune skin issues, etc. I've checked around and it's real. I'll post as I obtain more info. This is the grand daddy of VLCing, a T1 diabetic who's calling every diabetic to cut carbs to the bone. He's like 82 but the guy has some kind immune condition that everyone knows about.

charles grashow said...

As Mark would say

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-metabolic-paradigm-shift-fat-carbs-human-body-metabolism/#axzz314hwgi70

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Here's some skinny on the usual suspects:

- David Mendosa is a former foreign service officer who became a Bernstein disciple upon turning diabetic. His epiphany was AGEs = EVIL. Like the Great Lustig, he believes fructose is evil. He won't eat carrots not just because it has some miniscule carbs but because it has fructose, which is aglycemic. He calls carrots "fructose stix." The knucklehead claims we should do an A1c test every month. Every month! Even though A1c measures 3 months' mean blood sugar. Not only the guy cannot add or subtract, he is a fructose scaremonger even worse than Lustig.

- Josh Axe, another backcruncher.

- Ron Rosedale became distraught when his disciple Mercola, embraced PHD over the "cold hands but live long" Rosedale diet. He's back to lecture us about leptin. The only problem is he doesn't quite understand leptin. He often seems to be confusing it for lectin.

- Jenny Ruhl, another Bernstein disciple who developed cancer and then became euthyroid upon VLCing. She wears many hats: by day, she's a software programmer; by night, she writes romance novels. Check out some of the bodice ripper erotic thrillers she has written, with titles like "Star Crossed Seduction" and "Perilous Pleasures:"

http://www.amazon.com/Jenny-Brown/e/B0034OPYUU/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

When not being Jenny Brown the romance writer, she's Jenny Ruhl the diabetic activist. She claims anything over 110 is killing our beta cells. Unfortunately, she should have taken her own advice, as her latest picture seems to show she has diabetic retinopathy.

- Stephen Freed is the lapdog of Bernstein who hosts monthly diabetic webinar with the great octogenarian. After listening to a few of these webinars, I became convinced that Stephen does not know how to push the mute button when when using Skype. Nor does he know much about diabetes except what's dictated to him by Bernstein.



Seriously, if you want a seriously warped perspective on how to manage diabetes, be my guest and attend this Diabetes Summit. Jaminet and Kresser are there as token carb advocates. But even these will fold like an accordion when surrounded by a mob of VLCing diabetic warriors.

charles grashow said...

First of all IMHO there is absolutely ZERO chance of my being diagnosed with T2D today or any day. Be that as it may - if I were - that is my A1C suddenly and without any reason spiked to a level that I would be concerned about - I would try the following 2 protocols

1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/

2) Ma Pi Macrobiotic Diet
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2012/856342/

Radhakrishna Warrier said...

I am not an LCHF (low carb high fat) fan. I don't believe that an extremely low carb and high fat diet is healthy. I also don't believe that Dr. Richard Bernstein is "sick as a dog" from all that I read about him on the internet, especially in diabetes related e-forums. He seems to be a healthy and very active person for an 80 year old who has been a type 1 diabetic since when he was 12 years old. A Wikipedia article on him has this to say "As of 2006, Bernstein had an HDL cholesterol of 118, LDL of 53, Triglycerides of 45, and average blood sugar of 83mg/dl.[3] By 2008, at 74 years of age, Bernstein had surpassed the life expectancy of type 1 diabetics. He attributed his longevity to the low-carbohydrate dietary approach and lifestyle changes he had developed for diabetics." In this video that I found on the internet dated 2010 (when Dr. B was 76) he looks healthy for his age:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyOI9bk3VZc . It may be interesting to know that he graduated and worked as an engineer before entering the medical profession and earning his MD in his middle age.


Regards,
Rad

charles grashow said...

Robert Lustig now says - with the exception of grapes - you can EAT ALL THE FRUIT YOU WANT!!

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/learning-to-cut-the-sugar/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Q. A lot of the recipes in your book use fruit to add sweet flavors. Was this a way to limit refined sugar?

A. Exactly. People always say to me, “What about fruit? It has sugar.” But I have nothing against fruit, because it comes with its inherent fiber, and fiber mitigates the negative effects. The way God made it, however much sugar is in a piece of fruit, there’s an equal amount of fiber to offset it.

There’s only one notable exception: grapes. Grapes are just little bags of sugar. They don’t have enough fiber for the amount of sugar that’s in them. But I have nothing against real food, and that includes real fruit. Eat all the fruit you want. It’s
only when you turn it into juice that I have a problem with it, because then it loses its fiber.


SO - is he now been ex-communicated from the movement?

Radhakrishna Warrier said...

I am not a fan of the LCHF (low carb high fat) diet. I don't believe that extremely low carb and high fat diets are healthy. I also don't believe that Dr. Richard Bernstein is "sick as a dog" from what I read on the internet, especially in e-forums dedicated to diabetes. For an 80 year old who has had type 1 diabetes since age 12, he seems to be very active and healthy. A Wikipedia article on Dr. Bernstein has this to say "As of 2006, Bernstein had an HDL cholesterol of 118, LDL of 53, Triglycerides of 45, and average blood sugar of 83mg/dl.[3] By 2008, at 74 years of age, Bernstein had surpassed the life expectancy of type 1 diabetics ." In this video dated October 2010 that I found on the internet, Dr. B looks fairly healthy for his age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyOI9bk3VZc. It is interesting to know that Dr. B was an engineer who earned his MD and entered the medical profession in his middle age.


Regards,
Rad

Hello_I_Love_You said...

I agree Lustig is not against "endogenous fructose" in fruits that have fiber. He himself has said he's not as rabid as Dr. Johnson, who believes fructose also increases uric acid. But sugar is a dose-dependent "hepatotoxin," as he calls it. The same with juice, which has no fiber.

Jenny Ruhl originally embraced Bernstein. Then fell off the wagon. Developed cancer. Then restarted. Developed the typical low T3 euthyroid cold hands and body temperature. Then realized the Optimal Dieters were developing cancer. Got scared. Decided to notch her carbs up to 80-120g. But her book claims that beta cells are killed off not by hyperglycemia but at normal levels such as 110-120, which makes insulin dependency inevitable for most diabetics and diabetics inevitable for even normal people. The latest evidence does not support her claim.


Here's Jenny Brown, the bodice ripper novelist, describing herself. Only a few people know that Jenny Brown is Jenny Ruhl. And she's worn more hats than you can count: singer/songwriter, publisher, astrologer, etc.

"Jenny Brown ... earned her living in many different ways: performing as a singer-songwriter in Western Massachusetts and Nashville, writing nonfiction, and, for the past fifteen years, running a successful small press.

Jenny has been a student of astrology since her teens. This ancient art helps her make sense of her life and accept that the way she is, with all its oddities, is the way she's supposed to be."



I think that last paragraph describes her best. Only an astrolger could come up with some of the weird notions about diabetes she cooked up in her book. For example, she claims that carbs and protein are not the only macronutrients that raise BG; SAFA can as well. She doesn't grasp that it's probably hormonal dysfunction that's raising fat. She once believed that eatings lamb chops for a month would make her lose weight. Seriously, you cannot make up this stuff up. She is a certified wacko.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I've noticed her around but read nothing that drew me to learn more


> Jenny has been a student of astrology



OMG please let it be the real North Indian ... ahem ... "schtuff". That would make my day.

carbsane said...

He's actually worse than Bullshitfull Exec, but Asprey markets his quackery more directly and forcefully.

dancer80 said...

Exactly, there are no documented, healthy, long-living societies which thrive on high fat/ very high animal protein/ VLC diets. Invariably you get outliers here and there, like you'll hear about someone's elderly relative living to 100 and that relative ate fried chicken everyday. But again that is an outlier, just as my grandfather who died aged 98 and smoked cigarettes since his teens up until he died.

Convincing newly indoctrinated paleo followers to abandon all the science behind saturated fat + cholesterol takes a lot of salesmanship. But still it's an easier sell to people when you tell them they can have unlimited portions of their favorite meats or enjoy those 10-eggs omelette cooked in one stick of butter. They are assured they can eat this way out of metabolic syndromes such as Type 2 Diabetes by simply halting the body's need for insulin to begin with. Simplistic thinking yes but problem solved! Well until now when you have a lot of paleo low-carbers unable to sustain good mental and physical health on the diet. I know some of them secretly grumble about having high blood lipid profiles, plus they're still on Metformin....but then they get advice to eat more coconut oil and pastured butter.

dancer80 said...

Good lawd, this Jenny person sounds umm...interesting.

Robert Lustig actually is not as militant in his recent lectures, and even he makes distinctions between complex carbohydrates and simple sugars. He still gives regular lectures (they're always packed) at UCSF where he also has his clinic, I went to one of his lectures almost two years ago. He makes the most sense when speaking out against the proliferation of added sugar in children's diets.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

The best way to manage T2 diabetes is to tailor it to your insulin sensitivity. If your C-Peptide is below 1.0, you might have to low-carb but not VLC. Even at that level, most people can do 100-120. Watch FBG fall. Introduce carbs strategically on a divided basis per meal based on GL.


If you're insulin resistant with high CP, you have a chance to go even higher with carbs. Non-starchy carbs ad libitum, starchy but moderately GL carbs like yams, sweet potatoes on a portion controlled basis at 30-50 per sitting.


Trust me, most people can manage T2D very well with 100-200 carbs by sticking to fiber-rich vegetables and some starchy veggies, as well as portion-controlled grains. VLCing is not the only way, as Peter believes. Peter is often credited with coming up with the concept of physiological insulin resistance. VLCing is not the only way. LCing could be the way. Once your insulin sensitivity improves, 150-200+ is possible. you can be within 4.8-5.3 if you're insulin sensitive. Don't be fooled by the Blood Sugar Cult's 4.3 optimal A1c. You'll never believe it but I've seen it being done numerous times and such people never experience VLC side effects nor diabetic complications.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Yeah, she kept the 2 personas separate since her belief in astrology could undermine her credibility when it comes to diabetes. You're right, Lustig cannot be compared to those who abstain from the carbs and fructose in fruits and carrots like Mendosa and Bernstein.

Karen Norris said...

I wonder if that's why I have had such good luck with FBG. When first diagnosed I cut out so much. Went from 4 32oz regular cokes a day and a candy bar for breakfast and lunch out always as I was working and a big meat and tatoes dinner to no coke no candy ever period bagged lunch with particular foods and meat and salad for dinner. The dentist I worked for was concerned I was killing myself lol. But I lost 40# in less than 2 months and another 30 over 6 months. Sounds like the calorie restriction quick weight loss thing to me.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Just one thing... Mendosa was originally--for a good many years, possibly a decade--into GI/GL approach to carbohydrate and medication management. He migrated to the Bernstein school of thought somewhere around 2008, this has really amped up his ideas on things like carrots and what not else, and one can see this happening as they read through his catalogue of writings.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I perceive Lustig as worsening, in the extreme.

At that "fructose summit" I felt he'd been backed into a corner and forced to admit RCTs were needed.

Then Sanjay Basu's paper came out, wherein IMHO Lustig's peer reviewers forced him to remove the "now it's proven" type language and specifically put in "this ain't proof" type language.



But in his speeches he says roughly that, and pushes that SINGLE paper as having as much probative value as the MOUNTAINS of papers on global warming.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

He had a couple of really informative articles way back

>a bandwagon or ideological indignation becomes the default solution

A point I keep returning to: low carb has been given the same public, real-world test as a lot of other diets and failed for real people just as badly- the bandwagon emptied out(if anyone still remembers the trickle of corporate product support that grew to massive volumes and number of products in 2007, which is mostly gone now)


The bandwagon now is of a different character than the usual popular one.

carbsane said...

I knew Jenny was a writer, but the full bio is rather enlightening!


Cancer? I don't believe she mentioned that in the presentation. On the one hand I liked some of her moderate approach -- and in the interview I get the feeling she had a falling out with the Bernstein gang -- OTOH, her science is quite bad in many places. Also -- she flat out declared that you cant get rid of diabetes ... odd considering the title of the summit. Yes, hers can't be (MODY, likely MODY2) but T2 most certainly can be.

carbsane said...

Interestingly she mentioned developing an eating disorder trying to follow Bernstein.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Indeed, and that's where the fringe-like ideological indignation fills the void.

billy the k said...

Low carb fans claim that fat is the "preferred" fuel; Pritikin and like-minded high-carb advocates claimed the same for carbohydrate. But as our good friend Taubes pointed out [GCBC; p384], it's wrong to say that our cells burn glucose or fat because our cells actually burn neither: what they burn is ATP, which our cells make from the carbon atoms of all 3 macronutrients with equal facility. It's the Krebs cycle, and Hans got a Nobel prize for discovering this in 1953: "...Krebs had initiated his research assuming, as was common at the time, that carbohydrate was "the main energy source of muscle tissue." But he came to realize that fat and protein also supply fuel for muscle tissue, and that there was no reason why carbohydrate should be the preferred fuel. All three major macronutrients of food supply carbon atoms...for combustion," he wrote."

rudyInLA said...

About a week ago isaw on Dr Oz (no...I don't know WHY I watch it!) was really trying to mainstream the lapband. Apparently they have medically and legally lowered the weight where docs are allowed and reimbursed to perform the surgery. I don't think I'm exaggerating but he was REALLY telling his audience to go for it that it was no big deal and had amazing and immediate benefits. as I so common today the main theme was it's not our fault we're all fat. Of cours not! This was done to us! By whom? The usual suspects. Of course, there were plenty of miracle breakthrough pills never featured on the show before! No pill or supplement is too out there and of course, any mention of side effects is either non-existent, super minimal, or is featured weeks or months later as the next big danger to avoid! That guy slays me! Heaven help his audience. His demonstrations are the most insultingly stupid things you'll ever see.

carbsane said...

Oz treats his audience like they're a bunch of mind-numbed robots ... I've come to conclude that anyone who relies on Oz's opinions and/or advice likely is. What is depressing is that there are enough to keep his show on the air.

carbsane said...

Might have been! I think this is why VLC works so much better as well. Depending on the starting point, many are drastically cutting calories even 1000 per day.

rudyInLA said...

Yeah. I often get the feeling that audience doesn't really buy most of his advice but they do love those pills! Any substance or food he mentions causes sales to go off the charts. We Americans sure likes dem pills! If you LOOK at his audience a few scenarios might be, what he says doesn't work or they don't follow his nutty advice. I have to say that the audience REALLY just think he's good looking and seem to fantasize about being his girlfriend or wife! Many of them seem to pretty much say that. I have to believe they think his demos are ridiculous and why the want to rush down there to stand next to him wearing those silly purple gloves so they can handle human organs is beyond me. The human body is amazing but I don't know if I need to hold a pancreas or liver on national tv while he tells me I'm killing myself living my life. News flash....everyone who follows his advice or ignores it is going to die. I guarantee it!

Hello_I_Love_You said...

After being indoctrinated by Bernstein, he came to believe that A1c = Health. Nothing else needs to be looked at other than A1c. Then he realized, wait, A1c is a weighted mean, in other words, the last month of the 3 months is weighted more than the first 2 months. Thus came his stroke of genius: why not measure A1c every month?

Here, he tells a story about his A1c rising from 5.1 to 5.5 and felt how he was asleep at the wheel.

http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=1411#more-1411



First, the moron is checking not plastma A1c with a lab but a blood spot A1c with Bayer's A1c, which you can buy 2 for $19.99 at Kmart. They're just not very accurate and have larger margins of error. Second, any daily checking of BG for fasting and post-prandial once after your largest meal will flag overall deterioration in BG control; you cannot miss it with your meter if it's reasonably accurate and you're checking daily, even just once every day.


This guy is completely illiterate medically and has swallowed the whole BG myth propagated by the Blood Sugar Cult.

dancer80 said...

Maybe I am basing impressions I came away with from just one lecture, and a very specific lecture couple years ago. I did not know he doubled down on the more controversial aspects and language of his books. The lecture I went to was on pediatric obesity and the rise of Type 2 Diabetes amongst this population. Sadly it is true we do see more pediatric patients with this condition, more sad is the fact that their families don't tend to want to change eating habits, instead ask for meds. We teach them insulin injections and they in turn regard this as normal part of life, most refuse to change eating habits, I have seen many instances where the parents sneak in junk food for kids who were supposed to be on diabetic diets while hospitalized.

So from my perspective, I think Lustig bringing attention to the problem is a good thing. Though I agree he does go overboard sometimes.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

If Lustig wrote it I do NOT believe it; quite in fact

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1832542

> There was a significant decrease in obesity among 2- to 5-year-old children (from 13.9% to 8.4%; P = .03)

I don't claim JAMA is some kind of god of truth, just there are two sides to this story and If he's still saying it without qualification as if it's an unmitigated slam dunk he's more of a douche than I thought

rudyInLA said...

He definitely goes overboard when he gets going. Some lectures are tempered and deliberate and others get a little preachy and sometimes he gets REALLY wound up. The themes Re generally consistent but he has done a bit of bobbing and weaving over the years. There's nothing that dramatic or enlightening in anything he says but I'm sure it cN help someone who for some reason hasn't heard or can't figure out their kids shouldn't be drinking 2+ liters of soda or juice. Are there such people?

rudyInLA said...

Karen, you had no choice but to drink those sodas and eat those candy bars! https://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-news/fed-up-exclusive-clip-documentary-katie-couric-164732676.html

dancer80 said...

"Are there such people?"

Yes, unfortunately there are. When we go over dietary patterns as part of health history/ assessment, some parents are surprised that the foods their kids are eating are considered culprits in developing Type 2 Diabetes so young. I remember one mom in particular who bragged to me how healthy her child's meals were, and how she was surprised her preteen child was obese and was borderline diabetic. Turns out a "healthy" breakfast was 1-2 big glasses of juice or 1 Odwalla fruit smoothie, Frosted Flakes cereal with milk, toast with jam and peanut butter, and eggs. The child also had ADHD and wouldn't take prescribed medications without handful of jelly beans. Then there are the parents who were aghast at just how much soda and junk food snacks they were allowing their kids to eat, mainly because they were eating that way too. Though now instead of soda, which most parents know as unhealthy, energy drinks like Gatorade are likely to be given to kids. Kids love energy drinks because it's basically sugar water, plus they've been told it's healthy since it has electrolytes and vitamins.

carbsane said...

As a scientist, I can't get past Lustig's mangling of basic biochemistry.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Here's Jenny's view on the Newcastle study. Clearly, she didn't read the study or is simply biased. The same with gastric bypass and intestinal gluconeogenesis.

http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.com/2011/06/idiotically-dangerous-diet-reverses.html



So how is this diet any worse than being in ketosis, especially when it's short-term, focused, and is meant to rid oneself of diabetes? Jenny thinks there is only one kind of malnutrition: caloric malnutrition.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

If you think Jenny has an "interesting" background, you should check out David Mendosa's: former civil servant, poet, journalist, women's shoe salesman, Radio Shack salesman, nudist, chairman of a commune that celebrated alternative lifestyles, including swinging and polyamory, living in various communes and group homes across the country, flirtations with becoming a marijuana farmer in Hawaii (wisely aborted). Seriously, you can't make this stuff up. All this is from his Website. Here's David taking a mudbath with the Aricans, a human potential movement which apparently believed in living in one big yellow submarine:

http://www.mendosa.com/radical.html

David has had 5 religious conversions and 3 names changes. His name is David now because he converted to Judaism. He really seems like a colorful guy that I would love to have a beer and shoot the breeze with (fully clothed, however!) But I wouldn't take his pearls of wisdom regarding diabetes seriously.

Bris Vegas said...

"Turns out a "healthy" breakfast was 1-2 big glasses of juice or 1
Odwalla fruit smoothie, Frosted Flakes cereal with milk, toast with jam
and peanut butter, and eggs."


The Dietitians Assciation of Australia actually recommends diets like these. The DAA was even recommending confectionary as a part of a 'balanced' diet for children a couple of years ago. This is due to the insiduous sponsorship by the food processing industry of every major dietetics body in the world.

Bris Vegas said...

I'd go on a fruit and (non starchy) vegetable based diet with a few baked beans to top up my protein. You can literally eat a bucket full of these foods and still stay under 1000Cal/day. Plus they do wonders for the gut microbiota.

Bris Vegas said...

Humans evolved from frugivores not starchivores.

The problems is that most nutrition research is based on rats. Rats can't tolerate sugars but they thrive on starches. Humans on the other hand tolerate sugars (as whole fruit) extremely well. Cooked starches are higly insulinogenic. Whole fruits have negligible effect on insulin and blood glucose.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Man... that's quite the leap he made. It wasn't that long ago (somewhere around 2009, or something) that he was actually trying to be realistic about ideal A1C levels and confessing that while Bernstein's ideas sounded 'interesting', most of the research indicates that the ideal is somewhere around the 4.8-5.4. Quite the shift in gears from pretty much what Sanjeev said about him from the days of yore; he used to produce grounded and realistic information and I did find that his background, writing and research skills were being put to good use in his honest pursuit of improving his own anecdotal experience. Now it's down to the reductive inanity of monthly A1C testing and absurdly low A1C levels? Bloody hell.

Of course, monthly gauging of A1C--let's not even get into the inaccuracy of the store-bought testing kit--is going to show some serious fluctuations, so anyone engaged in such a level of idiocy should be awfully mindful of a realistic range to accommodate such fluctuation. What I find amusing though, is that certain folk who do develop cortisol-driven high glycaemia, a generally poor state of fasted and overall glycaemic health, also start to exhibit higher A1Cs despite those low post meal glucose reads. When this happens, they rationalise the high fasted sugar and A1C away by over playing the haemoglobin card. Frankly, I am not all that impressed by the glycaemic figures boasted by *certain* low carbers although no denying that a reasonable approach to their diet can help restrain glycaemic issues. However, after someone is below 5.2, it is absolutely meaningless how much lower they can go and we know that for individuals like Jimmy Moore, it's a confounded matter since he supplements to keep his sugars low since his diet isn't accomplishing this result on its own. Before glycosolve, his fasting glucose reads were far from great and his A1C would have been something far different than the oddly deflated lower 4 figure that he's been presenting as his silver bullet against chronic disease.

Too bad that Jimmy doesn't look all that great for someone with such a low glycated haemoglobin. Perhaps it's not all about sticky and oxidised sugar-proteins and more about a combination of variables, including certain elevated hormones such as cortisol and their downstream effect of a stressed liver, and frankly out of control endogenous overproduction--paired with insulin resistance from all that overdosing of 'healthy SFA'--of glucose and lipaemia that no manner of exogenous glucose deprivation will be able to mediate.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

any reason to believe he has temporal lobe epilepsy?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22temporal+lobe%22+religious+conversion&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=X7JsU7vYGOeM8QewnYGoBw

carbsane said...

She's simply biased. When that first came out I read several "takes", hers among them. I think she has convinced herself of the "fact" she repeats about the percentage of beta cells already destroyed upon diagnosis. What bothers me is that IF this were true, you wouldn't see the reversals. They've known at least since the 60's (my silly hobby of collecting old literature these days ;-) ) that normal to near-normal glycemia could be restored in T2s with a couple three days of fasting. This could not be the case if the beta cells were destroyed. Cognitive dissonance. But she's apparently not much of a deep thinker.

rudyInLA said...

I understand what you're saying but I'm not going to buy into the theme that the average adult has no exposure to info that 2 glasses of orange juice, a smoothie, jelly beans and energy drinks is good food for a kid or themselves. the most minimal contact with any form of media, even entertainment media, would let you know how stupid, to be blunt, that is. Now you dans choose to live that way and claim your brain has been hijacked by the food companies, or that gluten rots your brain, (see Dr Oz yesterday and his Perlmutter segment) or the "hide" secret deadly ingredients in your food, but I'm not buying it. I have never met anyone who was overweight, which I myself have been a couple of times in my life, that didn't know how they got that way. Yes, there are a few people who claim they eat nothing and gain weight, eat well and get fat, but they're often delusional in their assessment of what. they usually eat or have a bad case of portion distortion. It's a big subject as any layman's studying shows, speaking as a layman, but the only time I have gone astray in my health is when I listened to restrictive eating plans hawked in the media. I think even if you ate to the oft hated "Food Pyramid" of yore as it was intended, not as we hoped it could be interpreted, you'd be better off than eating like JM or Asprey or any of those guys.

carbsane said...

WOW GANG! SORRY!!! I didn't see so many comments in the queue. Not sure why they all got sent there anyway :(

rudyInLA said...

Yeah but you have to make sure it has Banaba Leaf in it. Kidding.

rudyInLA said...

How date you live your life! Don't let it happen again!

carbsane said...

LOL! The long timers have probably noticed that I'm less interactive here than usual. Just soo much going on.


Disqus is great -- especially vs. regular blogger -- but sometimes it just doesn't refresh real-time. I try to whitelist most as there are really only ... well ... one bad apple ... but it's not perfect.

billy the k said...

Dr. Bernstein may appear to be extreme in his carb-phobia (he's been called the "Taliban of Low Carbers"). He counts the carbs in an EGG [0.6g]. Likewise, Nathan Pritikin counted the fat in an APPLE! [0.47g] But I think that we who still make even some endogenous insulin should cut Bernstein some slack: the man makes absolutely zero insulin. Which means that even if he eats nothing, he still has to inject insulin to "cover" the glucose his liver produces. If he eats even ONE gram of popcorn--a couple of kernels--the weight of a paperclip for crissakes--his blood sugar will rapidly rise about 5mg/dl. This is a tremendous cross to bear just to remain alive.

rudyInLA said...

Oooo....now I'm wondering what the "bad apple" (too many carbs in fruit!) try to post! The nuttier the better! If they're mean or constantly degrading then I have no interest in them. In any case your judgment is no doubt more sound than mine on such things. I don't know nuthin' bout no bloggin'!

rudyInLA said...

I could be wrong but I seem to remember the book saying something about bell peppers are to be avoided but if you MUST have them, a tiny amount of the green was OK but to avoid or the yellow and red as they have more glucose. OK...maybe. I guess the fact he's still alive and if he's as active as he claims then bless him but the advice is still nutty to me. I also seem to remember him talking about his patients needing to take olive oil and rum, something like that, to keep the weight up. Uh huh......OK.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Bernstein wants to put people with 5.1 A1c on insuliln. Do you fully realize the extent to which this guy has pulled the wool over everyone's eyes?

dancer80 said...

I'm sure the average, fairly informed adult has exposure to health info from every form of media. But somehow with kids, the problem is made more complex by issues of guilt or the belief that you should let kids eat more than they should because they're growing. Vast majority of parents with overweight/ obese children are very much aware of what the problems are, if they are the sort to be well-informed. But there are a lot of families that literally have no clue why their kids are fat and diabetic, and that goes not only types of food but portion size. There is no concept of portion size, so teaching them that one serving a bagel is actually not the entire huge bagel you get from the bakery, but half of that, so on and so forth.

rudyInLA said...

Agreed. It's hard to say no to kids whether yours or anyone else's. Even for adults, if we allow ourselves to ignore the consequences and our better judgement, which I have definitely done in the past, we think nothing of having a bagel......or two. Aww hell.....give me a muffin for the road too! Oops...that muffin didn't make it out of the parking lot. Oh well....it's OK. There's a McDonalds on the way home. WHY IS THE FOOD INDUSTRY MAKING ME DO THIS?!?!? Watch the "Weight of the Nation" videos for a really warped view of what's going on with enough truth and science in it not to be totally discredited. I think the series is free in the iTunes TV store.

charles grashow said...

If cholesterol doesn't matter then why is JM bragging about his wife's low numbers?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152477327101320&id=91566951319

Her numbers go down = great news
His numbers go up = great news

1) You CANNOT have it both ways
2) I don't believe for a moment she eats the way he does

carbsane said...

The problem is
(1) Bernstein's advice is followed by all diabetics as if it pertained equally to them.
(2) His advice is from the "old days" when a lot of the new technology was not available.
(3) I cannot get over the source of Bernstein's recommended BG's in the 80s and 90s all the time rec -- that is because the sales reps all had such levels when he measured them at random? What kind of crap is that? There are many studies out there measuring glucose back decades ... that doesn't fly.


I am not familiar enough as to what his advice exactly IS to a T2.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Ok, Carbsane, you wanna hear this quote. Hold on, I gotta get this quote correct. I purchased about $300 worth of his tapes and borrowed some from a diabetic since I was told I'd find what I'm looking for in there. It's simply disturbing not just what he is preaching but what his patients ended up with. This is seriously a guy who's frothing at the mouth.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

You've been hearing too much propaganda. Whenever a group behaves like a cult, everything stays behind closed doors. Anyone abandoning VLCing is considered a traitor. I believe Jenny Ruhl was savagely attacked for even daring to question Bernstein. To me Bernstein is the single guy who's gotten away with all this. But what comes out is enough to convince me that this guy pulled the wool over everyones' eyes and has tried to hide the serious health issues arising from long-term VLCIng. Most of his patients are hypothyroid and are on medications. Jenny Ruhl even confirmed this. Yet he claims in his tapes that hypothyroidism is "inevitable" with diabetes. No, it's the result of VLCing, Dr. Bernstein.

billy the k said...

Regular visitors to Carbsane will be well aware that Bernstein's low carb advice applied to people other than Type-1 diabetics is NOT going to reduce muscle insulin resistance, hepatic insulin resistance, or restore ß-cell functionality [carbs @ 6 + 12 + 12 = 30g/day max--including the carbs in eggs and--yes--bell peppers]. This ketogenic level of carb restriction will keep you locked-up in that increasingly common Low-Carb-Hellhole of insomnia, palpitations, progressively rising fasting BG levels and the daily dismay at seeing your glucometer register 136mg/dl because you merely SMELLED a piece of toast. My point, however, was that if, like Dr. Bernstein, you make zero insulin, you'll definitely want to not only know the correct amount of insulin to inject, but to also minimize that amount needed, and for such unlucky folks, scrupulous carb counting is not foolish.

carbsane said...

The "bad apple" is Razwell. Every now and then his meds wear off and he'd enlighten us with a litany of all caps nastiness name dropping his "friends" and what not. It got distracting. He still does it on occasion on my YouTube channel, I think he's on his 15th or so identity there ;-)

Mostly I have had a loose hand here for 99% of the time. Blogger only had "on" or "off" for moderation and no way to ban a person. Disqus offers nice options, but newbies get caught in the queue as do most posts with links. I still believe I have the best commenters on the interwebs. I may be biased, but I have only had to delete a very small handful of comments over the years.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

She is a low carber, dude. Not VLC? Sure, but she is very much a low carber.

And grapes are bags of sugar? *Face Palm*

Karen Norris said...

As a T2 diabetic this, except for the last advertisement, this is the same info given by diabetic educators.

Karen Norris said...

Lol Rudy!! I kinda think I did but I just wanted what I wanted!

Hello_I_Love_You said...

That's pretty much the point. Jenny has escaped from Prison Bernstein but she still has shackles on. She says, "starvation diets like this one are unnecessary: It's all about the carbs." Check out her explanation:

" ... the research suggests that the real reason ... people "reverse their diabetes" after gastric bypass is ... they can no longer tolerate carbohydrates and will experience projectile vomiting if they eat enough carbohydrate to raise their blood sugar. Weight Loss Surgery therefore forces them to eat a very low carbohydrate diet and THAT is what "reverses" their diabetes."

Only a knucklehead or someone intent on willfully misinterpreting the study will harbor this view. She can't figger out intestinal gluconeogenesis because that goes against her grain; she's mired in the progressive beta cell dysfunction view of diabetes, which supports her magic 140/120 postprandial breach lines for hyperglycemia and 110 for beta cell death.

This is why Jenny has to let go of astrology and start reading some science journals. I hope aliens from Uranus abduct her and take her to their mothership to deprogram her because her mind is still under the control of Bernstein, who parrots the same thing. Why do you think so? It's ideological, not substantive. Fear, and vested interests in their long-held view, makes people deny things that have more or less been scientifically proven.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Charles, listen to my favorite astrologist, Jenny, before using Berberine. According to Jen, Berberine is harmful. Why? I don't think the planets line up when you start taking Berberine:

http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.com/2013/08/berberine-works-but-may-very-well-be.html

Bris Vegas said...

Cuba has an excellent healthcare system.











Int. J. Epidemiol.
(August 2006)



35

(4):

817-824.



doi:

10.1093/ije/dyl175 (Free full text)



















http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/817.full

Many drugs do little more than mask the symptoms of disease and almost nothing to cure the disease. A bit like disconnecting the warning light because your engine overheats.

carbsane said...

I agree with everything you are saying here.

What bothers me is how the 140 mg/dL traces back to her as if it is "law" or something. Did she get that from Bernstein?

carbsane said...

Also, her use of "here's the scientific proof" and "this has been proven" gets me.

rudyInLA said...

ZZZZZZZZactly! I did too. Some media and a certain group of folks want to convince us udderwise.

rudyInLA said...

well he's certainly lived with his condition for a long time and has helped a lot more people do better than I have so I have to keep that in mind. I was cherry picking his comments to make a point which was stupid of me. Still.....if life comes down to staring at a piece of chocolate for a week trembling at the thought of eating it or panicking because you realize that you just ate the wrong color bell pepper....is that really a good thing? We can drive ourselves nuts with what we think we know sometimes. I do it as do a lot of other folks.

carbsane said...

When I was researching to blog on the insulin suppressing drugs that Lustig researched, I came across a patent application for them -- for the "novel" treatment of obesity.

It turns out he has had some success with them with children with hypothalamic obesity -- a rare form indeed, with a biochemical/physio explanation including abnormal insulin secretion.

But as his studies failed, I guess he had to look for a different route to fame and fortune.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

don't forget he uses the "sugar makes kids hyperactive" myth (found mythical by multiple RCTs) as the starting, motivating point of many of his speeches.

His entire argument's fatally flawed right from the very start; the consideration that's the motivator, the keystone of his entire "quality of life" schtick is plain old MYTH.

carbsane said...

Interesting ... because I know in at least one lecture or interview (perhaps his podcast with Jimmy) he said that eating sugar makes the obese kid slothy because it traps fat in the cells.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

exactly: "normal" kids respond to food with hyperactivity, the obese kids's fructose induced "metabolic damage" (liver, brain, insulin, leptin) prevents them from doing it.

billy the k said...

Regarding Dr. Bernstein's advice to Type2's, you may be surprised to see the following: In his first book ["Diabetes; the Glucograf Method for Normalizing Blood Sugar" (1981) he thought that his strict dietary guidelines [i.e., 30g/d of only very low glycemic, zero fruit, zero starchy veggies] probably encompass the maximum amount of carbs that fully insulin-dependent (Type 1a) patients can tolerate without eliciting substantial BG disturbances. [BUT (p..170)]:
"Diabetics who are producing significant amounts of insulin (Type 1B and Type 2) can probably tolerate diets with more calories coming from complex carbs. Such diets can offer at least three advantages to the patient:
1. Carbs are less expensive than protein, calorie for calorie
2. Carb calories are readily available without the presence of fat
(a desirable aspect--in 1981!--for overweight Type 2"s)
3. Addditional carbs can add more variety to any diet
4. Additional carbs offer the opportunity to add grains (important sources of B-compplx vitamins) to the diet without the need for vitamin supplements or lots of green vegetables

My understanding is that Bernstein later came to the conclusion in his practice that almost without exception a common characteristic of his Type 2 patients was their lack of motivation/willpower--seemingly incapable of controlling themselves when allowed to re-introduce carbs. And so he concluded that they would be better off in the long run to also stick to that simple, strict, rigid Type1 30g/d limit.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Dude, Bernstein still sees patients. He won't see patients that do not follow his 30g carbs diet. You have to fax your daily carb ingestion and meal sheet to him before he even sees you. He is the most extreme VLCing guy out there. With the exception of Volek and Phinney he's had the most follower and patients on the most extreme diet for the longest time. For the longest time. Sounds like some hit song here. Because diabetics trust Bernstein and consider him a God; if Bernstein says do it, I had better follow. Or I'll lose my foot.


It's no wonder his patients have the most severe side effects of VLCing. He gives his patients no choice. Plus most diabetic forums have been taken over by these Bernstein Nazis who believe there is only one way. He himself has suffered such side effects of VLCIng but he has been very slick at covering them up; he attributes every VLC side effect his patients suffer to diabetes.


Michael Eades is also taking a page off Bernstein's. Eades once admitted putting some of his long-term patients on T3 medication but then denied it. For Bernstein, it's 90% of his patients. He himself writes prescriptions to compound pharmacies for T3 medication. The horror stories from the low-carb crypt will not be complete without including Bernstein and what his patients have suffered.

billy the k said...

Yes, I do know that Dr. Bernstein still sees patients--I've occaisionally phoned his office to get his latest recommendations re glucose meters. I also know that he's not above trying to make an extra buck or two off the multitudes who worry about or are just curious about their diet and health [you refer to me as "Dude"--not
"Buster" or "Pal" but remember it wasn't me who shelled out 300 smackers for his "lectures."] Carbsane visitors will know that he's got loads of company in that club: Atkins' candy bars, Pritikin's Rejuvenation Centers, McDougall's soups, Mike Eades' various entreprenurial adventures, etc., etc.

Do I think that 30g/d of carbohydrate is a choiceworthy diet for anyone other than totally insulin-dependent Type1 diabetics? I've
already answered this.

And while he is indeed a very low-carb advocate, I do believe that you verge on an error claiming that Dr. Bernstein is "the most extreme VLCing guy out there:" check out Petro Dobromylskyj's
"What do I eat: 2013 update."

billy the k said...

Dont forget insomnia, dehydration, and palpitations ["we need more glucose--MAKE IT!!!"]

Hello_I_Love_You said...

How about autoimmunity and diseases like lupus, scleroderma, and rheumatoid arthritis triggered by long-term immune dysfunction. We're possibly talking about conditions that are worse than "mere" t1 diabetes. These conditions are potentially fatal and could kill you earlier than you suffer from t1 diabetes? Or lymphoma, a byproduct of immune deficiency which some of Bernstein's patients are ending up with.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Bernstein Telecast 12/2011


Question: Is there any truth to the statement that the carbohydrates provide nutrients for the friendly bacteria in your digestive tract that help you digest your food and assist your body's absorption of calcium? Found it in "Nutrition for Dummies."

Bernstein's Answer: It does sounds like it was written by a dummy. I doubt there is any truth to this. In fact, if you give a diabetic high carbohydrates, you are eventually going to cause neuropathy of the vagus nerve and they'll lose all semblance of digestion. And I've seen this over and over in new patients who come in the office.



[This statement will come back to haunt him.]

billy the k said...

Really? From low-carb diets? That is one hell of a parade of pathologies, if true. References?

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Listen to his tapes.

billy the k said...

Say what? Bernstein's tapes are themselves the references that confirm the claim that the aforementioned parade of pathologies is secondary to his own low-carb diet???
No comprende, amigo.

Hello_I_Love_You said...

Bernstein: "Hypothyroidism is an autoimmune disorder just like diabetes. We find autoimmune diseases come in clusters. I don't think I found a patient with just one autoimmune disease. For example, almost 100% of my patients have both diabetes and psoriasis, at least mild psoriasis with rough elbows. About 80-85% of my patients are hypothyroid, etc. Hypothyroidism frequently happens long before the development of diabetes. In other individuals, it may develop long after the onset of diabetes. For most diabetics, hypothyroidism comes along sooner or later [No, Bernstein, your patients are coming down with low T3 because of the VLC diet you put them on]… I have absolutely no experience in 30 years in treating hyperthyroidism [Again, if you understand T3, you'll realize how come you'll never see hyperthyroid patients in a low-carb practice. You need high T3. Bernstein here wonders why. Duh.]"

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