Channeling Nina Teicholz: Latest LC/LF Study Should Be Ignored
I'm sure by now you've heard ... low carb "bested" low fat once again in a gold standard randomized controlled clinical trial. As usual, some weighed in even before the full article was published, but I guess this is to be expected these days.
Before discussing this study, perhaps next week, I wanted to point out that by the standards of Big Fat Surprise author Nina Teicholz, this study should be summarily dismissed. Why? Well:
Not Representative of the General Population
It was conducted in 148 obese adults of which 88% were female and 51% were black. Thus the results are not applicable to the general population. Teicholz relegated a well designed and implemented 2 year RCT on the Mediterranean diet to a footnote in her book for this reason. I discussed this in detail here, which was prompted by this footnote in BFS:
XXXI . There was one other long-term (two-year) trial comparing a low-fat to a Mediterranean diet, with results in 2004. It showed that the Mediterranean diet performed better. But the study involved men and women with metabolic syndrome, not a normal population, and could not be generalized (Esposito et al. 2004). {Kindle Location 3493/12033}
You can click on the table to enlarge if you don't want to view the blog post.
Clearly a trial conducted on a group with metabolic syndrome would not be generalizable to the American population - [/sarcasm]. I don't understand why large trials such as this are conducted if they aren't going to even attempt to make them representative of the general population, or focus on a specific sub-population. You want to look at women? Then do your study in all women -- why throw 12% men in the mix when there are clear gender differences in the way metabolic parameters such as abdominal fat and HDL are concerned (to name just two). In the study they mention wanting to see how the diet impacted blacks who may have been underrepresented. Again, given as body composition was a factor, and there are some known racial differences, then do a study only in blacks. Was the distribution of race equal amongst the genders? We are not provided with that information and there is no indication that any post hoc analysis was done with subsets of subjects to control for either factor.
Race factored prominently into the Discussion section of this paper. The subjects "included a substantial sample of black persons (a group underrepresented in previous trials)". Yet we can all agree that 51% would be a gross overrepresentation. I wonder why they didn't present a separate analysis for just the blacks, even if just to say that they did so and found no differences.
Race factored prominently into the Discussion section of this paper. The subjects "included a substantial sample of black persons (a group underrepresented in previous trials)". Yet we can all agree that 51% would be a gross overrepresentation. I wonder why they didn't present a separate analysis for just the blacks, even if just to say that they did so and found no differences.
It was Not "Controlled"!!
By that I mean, using Teicholz's definition regarding compliance. Teicholz has brutally lambasted the LA Veterans study, both in the book and moreso even in some interviews. I discussed this in depth here. Teicholz declares:
In the best (most “well-controlled”) trials, researchers prepare or provide food to study participants to control exactly what they eat. Sometimes subjects are invited to dine in a special cafeteria, or sometimes the researchers will go so far as to deliver meals to their subjects ’ homes— although these kinds of measures can be quite expensive. In less well-controlled trials, subjects are simply counseled about what to eat and perhaps given a diet book to take home. {1297}
As it turns out in this trial, unlike the LA Vet trial where special meals were prepared for live-in residents, 3 meals per day ... and unlike even the Shai trial where special labeling of meals in the workplace cafeteria was used for 5 self-selected meals per week ... there was no food prep. The participants were provided with one diet appropriate meal replacement shake/bar per for the duration of the trial (brand/source/funding unspecified). Other than that, as Teicholz would say, we have no idea what they were eating! Did they eat the fakey foods?
The participants filled out two 24-hr recalls at each time point (one week/one weekend day, baseline/3/6/12mos). There is NO -- as in zero, zilch, nada -- description of the nature of the diets.
They Didn't Control for Smoking ...
... or even account for it.
Comments
"Despite clearly differentiating the diets the two groups were on, this researcher considers it problematic that one group had a modest goal, leading to a modest weight change, while the other group had a wildly ambitious goal, and eventually achieved a larger weight loss."
"But did we really need yet another study to point out that comparing a wildly ambitious diet with "usual care" (30% fat) could yield generally disappointing weight loss in both groups with a slight (and temporary?) reduction in risk factors?"
"Unequal effort demanded of participants on Low-Fat vs. Low-Carb brings comparison of these loosely defined terms into question, and with it the main conclusion of the paper."
Exactly. Low carb works as long as you compare it with nutrient free rubbish.
“I selected these diets because one was the National Cholesterol Education Program diet that stood as the standard for decades for reducing cardiovascular disease risk factors and specifically cholesterol, and then the other is a version of the maintenance phase of the Atkins diet, which is very commonly used for weight loss and is also thought to be generally bad for cardiovascular disease risk factors. So I selected those two diets because they’re relatively standard.”
I tend to see a few paleo-adherents post their cron-o-meter screen shots on social media. Even on higher fat and decent calorie intakes (note: the latest useful idiot who's been rabidly conflating low calorie intake with low fat whole foods advice in the comments section), and their fibre intake is almost always at least around 40-50 grams.
I don't like getting cynical, but "more studies are needed" seems to be the preferred outcome of nutritional clinical trials.
what they want to hear. In the blogosphere this has become a validation to LC followers while those that oppose it find it riddled with problems.
It seems to me, from the interview you posted, that Bazzano was trying to find something people can follow, even if it's a watered down version of LC or LF.
And that to me is a major challenge. When the simple thing that kept us healthy in the first place has become, due to many factors such as the pursuit of convenience, a difficult practice to follow for most people. People do not seem to want to hear that too much sitting, too much processed foods, too much HFCS, too much white flour, too much trans fats, improper cooking methods, not eating plenty of vegetables, exercising CORRECTLY, managing stress better, resting properly are part of what we need to do!
"Nah, it's the saturated fat or the sugar, or the grains dairy etc." Most people want EASY answers not simple ones. The ego seems to find complex explanations easier to accept that way it does not feel challenged by being a victim of the obvious more simplistic answer.
New Answers About Carbs and Fat
Q. Perhaps I missed it, but I haven’t seen how the latest study defines low-carb eating. Is it 60 grams a day? 150 grams a day?
A. In this study, people in the low-carb group lowered their carbohydrate intake to 127 grams a day, down from roughly 240 grams. The low fat group, meanwhile, consumed 200 grams of carbs a day.
Another way to think about low-carb eating is to look at the percentage of your daily calories that come from carbs and fat. Before the study, eaters in both study groups had been consuming diets that consisted of 46 percent to 50 percent carbohydrates and 33 percent to 35 percent fats. In the study, the low-carb group began eating a diet that averaged 34 percent carbs and 41 percent fat. By comparison, the low fat group ate 54 percent carbs and less than 30 percent fat.
Tony Federico: So, let’s say you wake up. You’re rocking it. You’re feeling good. You know, get through the work day. When you actually sit down to eat, I guess I’m just
curious of what that plate breakdown.
Jimmy Moore: So, what it looks like now?
Tony Federico: Yes. Just so I could kind of visualize it.
Jimmy Moore: Yes. So, whereas I would have the couple of eggs with a couple of slices of bacon before. Now, you’re ramping up the calories and it’s by design that you’re doing this and I’ll explain why in a minute. So, that two eggs now becomes four or five eggs, cooked in purposeful amounts of butter, so two or three tablespoons of butter.
Tony Federico: So, we’re not just like doing a thin coating on the bottom of the pan. We’re getting serious with the Kerrygold.
Jimmy Moore: Yes, yes, and you have to because you don’t get to 80% fat in your diet
without ramping up the calories from the fat, from those kind of sources. So, then on top of that – and see, I allowed dairy. Dairy has never really bothered me, so I allow cheese on top of the eggs and then, I put sour cream on top of that. I have a whole avocado on the side of that and then, oh, yes, if I want a few more calories, I’ll throw a couple of pieces of sausage or bacon on the side of that.
So, as you can see, a much larger meal than that one I used to eat, but I could eat that meal I just described, Tony, for example, and I could go easily 12-24 hours before I have to eat again, whereas the two eggs, two bacon, cooked in a little bit of oil that I used to have on my low-carb, it was by design, so I could eat something at lunch because I knew if I ate more than that for breakfast, I probably would be hungry.
Her study would be more sound if food choices were not restricted any more than the necessary carbs in one group and fats in the other. So carbsane's suggestion is good, or even better, no named diet at all. No name LC vs no name LF. That's the ticket.
Now if the price fell along with the demand for the product a change in the tastes and preferences (In this case I believe you'd assert for health reasons would be the more likely cause.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/global-hunger-for-protein-fuels-food-industry-deals-1402444464
Now if I went back to eating carbs - i don't doubt out put 40 pounds back on in about 5-6 months.
Nina Teicholz: The Big Fat Surprise – (08/07/2014)
Nina Teicholz, Author, The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet
Ronald M. Krauss, M.D., Senior Scientist and Director, Atherosclerosis Research, Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute; Adjunct Professor, Department of Medicine, UCSF and Department of Nutritional Sciences, U.C. Berkeley - Moderator
Investigative journalist Nina Teicholz spent nine years deeply researching the effect that fats have on our bodies. She found the unthinkable: everything we thought we knew about dietary fats is wrong. For decades, we have been told that the best possible diet involves cutting back on fat, especially saturated fat, and that if we are not getting healthier or thinner it must be because we are not trying hard enough. What if those exact foods we’ve been denying ourselves — the creamy cheeses, the sizzling steaks — are themselves the key to reversing the epidemics of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease? Teicholz will discuss how the misinformation about saturated fats took hold in the scientific community as well as the public imagination, and how recent findings dispute those beliefs. Come ask your questions about this startling new report.
Nina Teicholz was a regular contributor to Gourmet magazine and has written on food for New York Magazine and Time Out New York. She has also contributed, on a variety of topics, to The New Yorker, The Economist, The Washington Post, The New York Times and Salon, among other publications. She was an on-air reporter for NPR for five years and was the associate director for the Center for Globalization and Sustainable Development at Columbia University, a think tank directed by the economist Jeff Sachs.
"My wife, Christine, had an appointment with our doctor, just to kind of follow-up on
some thyroid stuff that she was dealing with..."
Wonder what caused that thyroid stuff?
"So, what we’re talking about here is real, whole food sources of fat, so things like butter and ghee and coconut oil..."
Apparently he is unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "whole food."
"... but then, they’re like, 'But I’m not losing weight.' I’m like, 'Are you expecting this to be a magic pill?' It is not a magic pill for weight loss and I often joke with people. If I never lost another pound eating ketogenic, just for the brain health benefits..."
He did the Healthy At Every Size movement spiel repeatedly.
Welcome to the internet, where you can claim whatever you like. (Just don't expect anyone to find your claims compelling.)
Pro tip: The use of weasel phrases (e.g. "a bunch of people) is grounds for the immediate dismissal of any anecdote as fiction. We're going to need the names of everyone in the bunch along with contact information. I'll be passing through Bullshitfordshire later this month, so I'd like to pop in on a couple of them in order to verify that they haven't regained.
"a low-carbohydrate group that was encouraged to consume only 40 grams of carbs a day (the same amount in two slices of white bread, and the same amount recommended in the maintenance phase of Atkins), and a low-fat group, which was encouraged to consume less than 30 percent of their calories from fat and 55 percent from carbohydrates (based on the National Education Cholesterol Program guidelines). For ethical reasons, Bazzano chose not to include a control group in her experiment."
First, key word: "encouraged" - that's all the guidance participants were given, evidently. That skews all conclusions.
Second, missing key word: "calories" - this study means nothing at all unless both groups were given equal calorie levels. Otherwise all it proves is that switching from a standard diet to a low-carb diet creates a caloric deficit when you don't count calories. I see that they did track calories, but both groups started and ended at different levels. Were any of these pegged to BMI, body shape, size, weight? If not, it's just meaningless.
Third, What? Control groups are unethical??? That's just bizarre...
Christine Woodward Moore
I can attest to what Jimmy is saying. I gained 30 pounds last year without changing a single thing. After trying to figure things out for a year, we finally had my thyroid numbers run. Turns out I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. I've had symptoms for 10 years but the weight gain didn't happen until 2013. We took my results to my doctor and he put me on Armour. Since going on that, I've lost over 15 pounds.
http://www.acaloriecounter.com/blog/why-am-i-not-losing-weight/
11. Legitimate (But Rare) Medical Issues.
"The solution here however is less about eating less calories and more about solving the underlying health issue that’s preventing your body from burning as many calories as it should be."
http://www.news4jax.com/news/lowcarb-dieting/27895582
I can't tell the difference between his appearance from when he began his NK experiment and now.... all for naught it seems.
However, what can you do without raw data? Was it so difficult to gather? Or is it that these data are withheld? It would be instructive to see a deconstruction of a study like this, both for what is right and what is wrong, using complete data.
You have done a superlative job with what is there, and there is much more detail in your analysis than I have seen so far. The failure to eat the same calories is surprising, but it seems none of the goals were met, and all the restrictions exceeded. Was alcohol use reported? That would make up some of the calorie deficit to match actual weight lost.
In the beat the dead horse category, how can one assess CV risk without without knowing what was eaten?
I think there might be some value in this study in the area of how unmanaged under-reported-upon cohorts behave.The study design is interesting but obviously needs some work.
In your writeup you have a duplicated reference, note 6 and note 8, which is possibly in the original data. I hate to miss a reference though, perhaps from some c&p gone awry?
In these notes there is some info on replacement meals but I didn't get the logic of them: Why? What's the purpose? (And when you write: "Each individual received 1 low-carb and 1 low-fat meal replacement per day." Is that correct? Perhaps the 'and' should be 'or'?
The section "What you can't say based on this study:" is particularly cogent and I hope every media agent and dietary guru reads them before publishing.
As for your love of Darwin sentiment, the answer is no. :)
My favorite thing about getting people to do this diet is how other issues that people view as unrelated to diet clear up.
My mother for instance saw her rheumatoid arthritis vanish (she was about to go on Humira) and a girl I know saw her eczema diminish to the point she was able to stop treating with steroids.
Keep in mind they came to me telling me these things before I'd ever even heard these could be caused by diet.
I'm pretty confident it had something to do with diet though since she only lost 15-20 pounds (she was never what most people would call overweight) and told me she couldn't get out of bed the next day after she ate birthday cake on her birthday.
^likely the blood sugar induced some kind of auto-immune response.
Then you can look at the thousands of people like me, or even Lebron James and half the NBA now who've dropped weight without hunger.
Low carb is finally achieving the prominence it always deserved... finally.
I don't advocate complete elimination of carbs for most people actually but for me - I love the effects and it really is the only way for someone not genetically predisposed to leanness to get a body with 6-7 percent fat while still maintaining muscle.
(Muscle wasting on the low calorie - higher carb diet, was after all one of the things they found in the study this thread is on)
btw, my personal experience here completely *refutes* your contentions. And so does my long history with low-carb, zero-carb, paleo, etc., ad nauseum.
And unlike low-carb, there is one thing you can definitely say for counting calories. The mechanism is known...
I can say me at 172 from low calorie - looked very different that me at 172 from low carb (I've actually been at that weight twice from 2 different diets). the low calorie one was about 1000 a day with swimming a thousand meters a day.
Now the rda is roughly 2000 calories for a man - at 55% carb that'd be 1100 calories a day of just carbs. So as I said - you are reducing your carbs (by almost 2/3rds)
When I wasn't counting calories I was probably at 2300-2500 kcal a day, supporting my 240 pounds. During that time I wasn't tracking anything. I still believed in low-carb theory and often attempted it, but never successfully except for my first Atkins diet in 1998. But for a long time I kept my carbs low. We just stopped eating things with carbs. Very little bread, no sugary drinks. So even when I was gaining weight my carbs rarely went over 50g/day.
Today was fairly representative, if a little higher than avg for carbs. 64% carbs, 23% fat, 13% protein. Total kcal of 1131. That's 183g of carbs. yesterday was 138g, day before 85g, day before that 132g.
At best, my carb level might be *even* with my normal pre-weight-loss diet. But it's probably higher by 25-50%.
It sounds like you're on a modified low carb diet. You are eating just a fraction of the calories you used to.
To be clear I don't think it's the proportion of carbs that matter for fat loss but rather the total carbs. Most people who are at 100-150 carbs a day will see slow loss (if overweight) or maintenance.
I AM EATING MORE CARBS THAN I EVER HAVE IN TWENTY YEARS.
Does that make it plain enough? It's not a fraction of my previous carb level, it's DOUBLE. Yes, I'm eating lower calories. That's why I'm losing weight. But a lot of the lower calories came from cutting out fat and protein while increasing carbs.
Also, do you consider 2 lbs/week a 'slow loss'? Because I can't find anyone on the internet recommending anything faster than 2 lbs/week...
Zoe's post on this study is a little wild. I posted a comment and it is now waiting moderation.
"Nutritional supplements (multivitamin formula, essential oil formula, diet formula, chromium picolinate) were provided to subjects to be taken on a daily basis in divided doses."
http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/rdeleon/504/westman.pdf
*Be sure to look at the Appendix for the insane amount of things actually in these supplements*
Plus, it is well-known that protein intake is highly relevant with regard to lean mass retention on a diet (in my experience as someone who was into natural bodybuilding for about a decade, actual muscle gain only happens for "resistance training newbies" who take up weight training when they start to diet and don`t employ too drastic a caloric deficit, particularly if they have a lot of fat to lose; once one is beyond the "rank beginner" stage in the weight room and can boast a decent level of leanness (ca. 10-15% body fat), trying to gain muscle in a caloric deficit is a fool`s errand, regardless of macronutrient composition), and since the low-carb group in the study kept their (absolute) protein intake more or less constant while the low-fat group reduced it significantly, the results are hopelessly confounded, even if one were inclined to take the BIA results unduly seriously.
Incidentally, I recently tried out an isocaloric VLC ketogenic diet myself (purely out of curiosity; I don`t have a weight problem or medical problems that are thought to respond to ketogenic dieting); I had to keep my carbs consistently below 20 g a day and my protein intake below 80 g a day in order to remain in nutritional ketosis (serum ketones above 0.5 mM), which I kept up for three months; at that point, I aborted my experiment, because I experienced consistent lethargy and bad sleep that showed no signs of improving. Over the three months, my weight remained more or less the same (the expected water weight changes due to emptied glycogen stores did occur, of course), while my body composition steadily worsened (as determined via skinfold measurements and hydrostatic weighing, which are decidedly more accurate than BIA).
Bottom line: I most definitely did not lose and apparently even gained some fat, even though I consistently reduced my carb intake by more than 95 % for three months (I eat around 400 g of carbs daily on my usual maintenance diet) ! So much for the Carbohydrate-Insulin-Hypothesis of Obesity applying to my body - Glenn Dixon apparently isn`t the only one out there with an alien physiology...
(Seeing as I also had to substantially decrease my protein intake in order to remain in nutritional ketosis, this is only surprising in Taubesland, of course...)
and i have dropped 10 pounds in the last few months by practising intuitive eating, whereby i am learning to eat to hunger signals, cravings, and satiety cues. i restrict NOTHING unless it causes me problems repeatedly. on the odd days i have tracked, i have easily hit between 300 and 600 grams of carbs.
here are a few examples:
example 1
-----
3195 cals
102.4 grams protein
633 grams carbs
31.9 grams fat
ratio c:78.3%, p:12.9%, f:8.8%
all plant-based except for 160g of sardines
all nutritional rda's exceeded, except for vitE
example 2
--------
2061 cals
72.3g protein
387g carbs
29.5g fat
ratio c:74.2%, p:13.1%, f:12.8%
all plant-based, except for 80g sardines, and 100g pork
all rda's exceeded, except for vitE, calcium, and vitD 9which could easily have been met with added calories..the day was well under)
example 3
----------
2526 cals
114g pro
331g carb
81g fat
ratio c:53, p:18.7, f:28.3
animal foods - butter, cheese, chocolate milk & chicken
quite a few of the rda's not hit, but this could be addressed by adding more calories of plant-foods
example 4
------------
2713 cals
119g pro
316g carbs
105g fat
ratio c:47, p:18.1, f34.6
animal foods - butter, cheese, ice-cream, chicken, pork
again missing some rda's that could be addressed with more plant fodder
---------------------------------
this is just a sample of the last few months. i rarely track now, except to get a reference point
given your skill for analysis, you might find (were i able to submit daily charts), that the only common denominator was carbs in excess of 300grams - waaaay above sisson's >150g carbs insidious weight gain marker. in fact, left to my own intuition, i tend towards very high carb, and mostly plant-foods. in this manner i glance back, middle finger held high as i pass sisson’s >300g danger zone
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzQ3eBerHfM
the other common denominator is that deficit equates to loss. elsewhere, you commented about 'belief' in calories. unlike the tooth fairy, the caloric equation operates whether you believe or not. CICO is the back-end, bottom-line of the equation. it is what's left after all the back-and-forth caca-de-vaca, debate over food quality, spontaneous n.e.a.t adjustment, insulin this, ghrelin that, quantity absorbed and meatbolic advantage blah blah, effing blah.
bottom line…..for the day, week, month, or year....when all is said and done, was your body in energy surplus or deficit ??
this is not to speak about health, of course. food quality is important in the discussion of health. but often, what ails us can be cured simply with the removal of the offending foods. while food quality can have a profound effect on the efficacy of a weightloss plan, it is not essential (see 'debby cakes diet', and macdonald's diet)
really, the only thing you need to worry about is sticking to what is working for you, and that helps you maintain that deficit. if you want, for weightloss purposes, to take advantage of the satiation qualities of fat and protein, then go for it. but there is no metabolic advantage...no magic bullet
just be careful....unlike jimmy moore (who seems content to dispense health advice while his weight and health markers are running away from him), maybe it's not wise to recommend people eat saturated fat at such high levels (almost to the exclusion of a whole macronutrient), until the results are in. an analyst, such as yourself, should realise that the results from this study are really not the one's you should be waiting for :)
i'm not arguing with you :)
Review: Keto Clarity
"For reasons I explained in a previous post, I don’t believe a ketogenic diet was the default diet of our paleo ancestors, and therefore I don’t buy the notion that anyone who doesn’t thrive on a ketogenic diet is suffering from a metabolic defect that needs to be fixed. There’s simply no evolutionary reason we should all be genetically geared to feel fabulous on a diet that few if any of our ancestors consumed.
But I also don’t buy the argument that since our paleo ancestors didn’t live on ketogenic diets, a ketogenic diet must automatically be ineffective or even dangerous. Our paleo ancestors didn’t drink whey protein shakes either, but those shakes are certainly beneficial for people who lift weights to build muscle. A ketogenic diet, like a diet supplemented with whey protein, is intended to be therapeutic – i.e., it’s supposed to help you accomplish a particular goal.
Obviously, one of those goals is weight loss. That was the main motivation for Jimmy to adopt a ketogenic diet, and considering that he lost 80 pounds in a year, I’d say it’s working. I also suspect that most people who buy Keto Clarity are interested in weight loss. And the scientific literature shows that ketogenic diets are indeed a good tool for weight loss – not for everyone, of course, but for many, many people."
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2014/08/25/reactions-to-arguments-about-ketosis/
Reactions To Arguments About Ketosis
As far as metabolically the low-fat dieters were probably using less protein since they don't need to engage in as much gluconeogenesis to maintain blood glucose so I'm not sure your argument holds water.
I do like how the recurrent argument against all 24 (now) of the studies that have pitted low carb diets vs. some version of the low fat diet (most show favorable outcomes for low carb) is that they some how mis-measured or were biased.This of course completely fails to see that most of the people doing these studies were either firm believers in the thermodynamic theory of weight loss or agnostic.
I'd say you are all missing the forest for the trees on a truly epic scale.
Since I've lost weight keeping calories higher and shifting macronutrient content - I'm of the inclination that carbs are the primary cause of fat loss.
Don't get me wrong though, I think a low fat, low calorie diet is a great way to lose muscle and other essential tissue.
there's no discernible ketone difference in someone who fasts for a week vs. someone who eats all fat.
One thing nobody can explain to me is what people ate in upper North America and Northern Europe during the winter pre-agriculture. That's an awful lot of berries and, tubers to find and store. Even when Europeans arrived the meat consumption was crazy:
Food at the first thanksgiving (held at harvest time when plant food was most abundant) - notice all they talk about is meat. (I'm aware they ate corn in its original lower glycemic form but given the abundance of meat they are noting here - it hardly even seems significant)
“Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company ALMOST A WEEK [My Caps]. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others.”
-Edward Winslow
Your statement:
'If your diet helps someone with arthritis, it is almost assuredly nothing to do with ketosis and because they removed something they have a sensitivity too'
is not entirely correct, although it is possible that change of diet eliminated an causative or supportive agent for arthritis, however there exists a large body of research clearly showing that ketogenic diet through number of mechanisms (including ketone bodies) significantly ameliorates inflammation. Arthritis is a inflammatory disease.
p.s.
For the record, I do not follow any dietary regime, I just eat whatever takes my fancy at a spur of a moment
Ketosis is meant to be a survival mechanism for times of food shortages.
Even I throw myself out of ketosis about once a month. You people are so funny.
Funny - I never see fat wolves. Though I was watching a documentary talking about how there are fat, sedentary raccoons now - also omnivores - though in the wild they eat almost all meat and crawfish.
It's like there are signs everywhere we look - provided we keep an open mind.
Why is that? Why do you talk to us like that?
So - if you want to support your claim that thermodynamics do not govern body mass flux in a credible manner, show me the metabolic ward study that demonstrates this.
The body composition data provided by the study is so methodologically unreliable that it is ultimately impossible to determine whose "argument holds water," - which is the main point I was trying to make - but based on general observations, your gluconeogenesis reaoning is rather feeble, as (according to the reported data) the LC group ate 127 grams of carbs daily at the one year point, which should cover the daily needs of the exclusively glucose-reliant bodily tissues in the obese, likely largely sedentary and "fat-adapted" study subjects; after all, remaining in nutritional ketosis, whose primary function from an evolutionary standpoint is protein sparing, usually requires substantially less than 100 grams of daily carbs for a reason. Thus, it is likely that absolute protein intake and "available net protein" are largely identical in the LC group.
In short, this study is a perfect example of the adage "garbage in, garbage out," as even some of the more non-partisan low-carb/paleo proponents recognize; Denise Minger, who isn`t known to pull any punches as far as the low-fat/plant-based camp is concerned (just look at her China Study critique), calls it "the kind of shoddy research we should be ripping to shreds".
Yes, most of the available LC vs LF studies are indeed methodologically flawed (as they fail to control for protein intake, for example), as far as I can see - the persuasion of their authors seems irrelevant to me, as it has no bearing in and of itself on whether or not the research is methodologically sound.
All in all, the currently available data are simply too ambiguous to draw any firm conclusions either way, though both the LC and LF camps tend to interpret it in a way that manages to bolster their respective preconceived notions (if LF had had the better results in this study,the LCers would now be the ones harping on about the exact same methodological flaws the LF camp is currently busy critizising, as Carbsane`s Teicholz reference illustrates). Interestingly, some of the most revered LC iconoclasts appear to recognize this, as the shoddy state of nutriton research appears to be the "Nutrition Science Initiative`s" raison d`etre: Gary Taubes lamented in a 2014 New York Times article ("Why Nutrition Is So Confusing") that the "evidence doesn`t exist to say unequivocally who`s wrong," and that "the only relevant fact on which relatively unambiguous data exist to support a consensus is that most of us are surely eating too much of something," thus tacitly acknowledging that his alternative proposal to "the thermodynamic theory of weight loss," as you call it, remains a hypothesis not substantiated by sufficient solid evidence to justify a paradigm shift.
His proposed solution: Better research (hence NuSI).
In a nutshell:
You are the one who "completely fails to see" something that several pillars of the LC community apparently recognize - namely, that all the various and sundry factions in the presently raging "diet wars" are currently "missing the forest for the trees on a truly epic scale".
You seem to imply that all of us in the asylum are merely wasting our time nitpicking, and that our scepticism would vanish if we could only be convinced to give LC a try and experience its wondrous effects for ourselves. Just in case this impression is correct, let me assure you that I have conducted numerous n=1 experiments that involved extensive macronutrient tweaking in order to close in on what works best for me, which allows me to say with confidence that LC doesn`t fit the bill for me personally.
Apropos "wondrous effects": It bears mentioning that even if one takes the available data at face value, the observed results of longer-term dietary interventions, be it LC or LF, are overall rather modest: Things mostly boil down to a couple of kilos lost (usually less than 10 % BW) and slightly less horrific metabolic parameters after a year, which is quite different from the slew of anecdotes along the lines of yours raving about scores of pounds lost effortlessly without eating less while having endless energy and developing a fitness model physique with five minutes of exercise a day both the LC and LF camps love to rub everybody`s nose in.
Again - show us the metabolic ward studies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/04/animal_obesity_are_pigeons_getting_fatter_.html
Man I could educate you guys all day.
You'll notice that later in the article they say:
"Authorities agree that the Querechos were Apache and Navajo Indians.[5] The Apache were newcomers to Texas, having arrived on the Llano Estacado perhaps less than 100 years before the Spanish visited them there. A village farming culture in the Texas Panhandle, the Antelope Creek Phase, disappeared about 1450."
Teicholz made a huge "error" in her book attributing the diet of a singular tribe/region of Native Americans to several tribes in the Southwest who were rather known for consuming a high carb diet supplemented with fish, clams and game.
But even the buffalo eating tribe she mentioned was also known for consuming lots of potatoes that grew wild in the region.
One of the recommendations is to use sugar alcohols as mild laxatives. If your diet constipates you, it is probably not optimal. Change the diet unless there's a REAL therapeutic reason for it.
Without calorie targets, however, it seems unreasonable for the NECP folks to meet a target for fat percentage. I had a friend who lost a ton of weight by shooting for 30g of fat per day which the low carbers would balk at but would be about right for a Pima Indian or a Thai from the 60's & 70's. I don't recall her starving herself either.
We keep hearing that you won't absorb your fat soluble vitamins without drenching your veggies in butter. That doesn't even make much sense, but I have a study around here somewhere showing the amount of fat needed to maximize absorption is quite low, around 5 grams , not 50!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KGiKX-pEJrs/Uep4moOwi5I/AAAAAAAADvY/An_P5Zqh89Y/s640/Thai+diet+2.jpg
LOL. Yep, I'd bet 90% of those here are well versed in all aspects of diet, low carb or otherwise. I thought you might be too harsh that FS was a troll, but maybe not. Although, he seems sincere, the result is the same, whether he trolls or not.
Your final sentence above is right on. So probably was your initial judgment.
Quoted verbatim, so heavier but not it seems with any certainty fatter.
Texas isn't what I'm talking about - that's in the southwest - Plains Indians (the nomadic kind that moved with the buffalo - not the potato lol) were in the Northern midwest for 1000's of years - yes the Apache eventually conquered down into the southwest but that is erroneous to the topic at hand - a red-herrring.
I guess we'll have to disagree and just say the proof is in the pudding (I'm skinny and you're still fat) - I recently learned how overweight you are by doing research - kind of ironic you criticize people who've lost so much. I did have a good laugh at your expense (sorry).
Nobody is denying that Northern winters and lesser ice ages made winter survival a dicey proposition. Some of those remote ancestors went into ketosis due to starvation and still survived. However, carbohydrates in various forms were universally stored for winter in both hemispheres. Look at Charles' references to plains indian life. Nowhere can it be shown that any population lived chronically in ketosis. Additionally, it is quite clear that agriculture in the Americas appeared long ago with the domestication of corn (2500 years), potatoes (10000-12000 years) and other crops although having developed independently, it never resembled the agricultural practices of the Old World.
You are inventing a fantasy ancient world to justify your dietary beliefs. Grok, however, is really just a first cousin of Fred Flintstone.
So they're being advised (by the 'experienced NKers) to 'track.' But since they don't believe in calories, they are telling them to weigh and measure their macros--fat, protein, carbs. There is no logic here. If the person is in ketosis, what difference do the macros make? It's the AMOUNT of food that's causing the problem, but thanks to their leader Jimmy Moore, they believe it's hormones or some such stuff that's responsible. Can't be all that FAT they're stuffing into themselves, can it?
I would feel sorry for them, if they were not so ridiculously moronic. Confession--I eat very low carb because I'm extremely carb sensitive, and it's the only way I could lose close to 200 lbs 4 years ago--and maintain that loss ever since. BUT I never checked for ketones--but I DID (and do) watch my calories. That's a lot easier than all their blood letting, IMO. And my system actually produces weight loss.
But current 'low carb' ideology (thanks to Jimmy Moore)--calories are irrelevant, ketones are important--and weight loss doesn't happen.
It is simply not honest to present this as a "first line of attack" when "ordinary" low carb has worked for Jimmy in the past and worked for many many more. I'm not even comfortable with this diet as a tweak absent a therapeutic need, but that is for each to gauge risk for themselves. We simply do not know what the long term ramifications are of a diet like Jimmy's and it is irresponsible to present this as a healthy option -- especially absent weight loss and with seemingly uncontrolled weight regain.
This is one of the issues I have with the LC community and their "it's about health" because there is no indication that it is necessarily a healthy way to eat. That's just the reality and it's really how I got into looking into all of the research because I wanted to know if it was especially if weight had not gotten down to normal, etc.
The other 5% are the neurotic ones who have done every single advertised weight-loss plan in the universe. It's ironic (to me) because the few who admit that they count calories are the only ones who have lost weight--but the board is dominated by the 'veterans' who are still obese and now ascribe to the 'for my health' approach because they refuse to admit that their wonder plan has failed them.
All those sticks of butter take their toll:-)
"Today's metatheme is: there's simply no scientific or real-world basis for long-term ketogenic dieting. There's not, and this is undeniable, apart from fantasy stuff. This is not exactly the same as saying that a long-term ketogenic diet is bad for you. Rather, it's saying there's just no evolutionary basis for it. Combine that with the established science that a ketogenic metabolism is absolutely a survival adaptation to starvation, and proponents are simply, a-priori, stranded in the position that modeling starvation is, most enthusiastically, 'optimal for everyone' or, most guardedly, 'something you should try' ("See if Starvation Hormonal Cascades Work For You!")."
Thank you for that one! It really brought tears of laughter to my eyes
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