las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Wednesday, November 26, 2014

That New Volek (& Phinney) Study: Part II ~ More on Journal Choice, Funding and Thoughts on Press Quotes

There is so much about the recent study from principal low carbohydrate advocate Jeff Volek, that this may well be the subject or impetus for several posts here as we close out 2014 -- it is so much more than just the study, but more what it embodies vis a vis the whole low carb/keto schtick.  Along with Stephen Phinney and ten -- count them, TEN! -- others who claim to meet the PLOS One standards to be designated as authors, we were brought the following study:


In a way this tops off a year of disgraceful behavior on the parts of just about everyone in the IHC who seem hell-bent on deceiving people into adopting their extreme lifestyles. If the science were really so clear, then why can they not address it honestly? There is nothing, N.O.T.H.I.N.G. in this study that supports the following quotes from Volek that have been repeated in multiple outlets too numerous to cite (but I'll link the official press release from his new institution, Ohio State University, the presume source for all further "journalistic" resports):
The finding "challenges the conventional wisdom that has demonized saturated fat and extends our knowledge of why dietary saturated fat doesn't correlate with disease," Volek added.
“There is widespread misunderstanding about saturated fat. In population studies, there’s clearly no association of dietary saturated fat and heart disease, yet dietary guidelines continue to advocate restriction of saturated fat. That’s not scientific and not smart,” Volek said. “But studies measuring saturated fat in the blood and risk for heart disease show there is an association. Having a lot of saturated fat in your body is not a good thing. The question is, what causes people to store more saturated fat in their blood, or membranes, or tissues?
“People believe ‘you are what you eat,’ but in reality, you are what you save from what you eat,” he said. “The point is you don’t necessarily save the saturated fat that you eat. And the primary regulator of what you save in terms of fat is the carbohydrate in your diet. Since more than half of Americans show some signs of carb intolerance, it makes more sense to focus on carb restriction than fat restriction.”
Perhaps Volek is not aware that the favorite Ancel Keys "bashing" study by Yerushalmy & Hilleboe did indeed provide better evidence than his data provided for all fat,  for just such correlation between animal fat consumption (higher in saturated fats) and heart disease. Not only that, but plant fats (mainly unsaturated) fats and even carbohydrates were negatively associated with heart disease.  See Denise Minger's post on the Y&H Study and Keys where she lists the correlation coefficients.  There are statistically zero human cultures on this planet ever who have consumed a high saturated fat diet.  NONE.  

MacSmiley has posted the following link (direct PDF download) in comments on my prior post on this study.  It is a document summarizing one of the funding parties of the study, The Beef Checkoff Program -- involving just about everyone beef, so Big Bovine it is!  


When such clearly telegraphed expectations are there, it becomes all the more difficult to believe that funding source had nothing to do with this, especially when the principal investigator has such a long track record of low carbohydrate advocacy.



Speaking of that track record ...

2008:  Comparison of Low Fat and Low Carbohydrate Diets on Circulating Fatty Acid Composition and Markers of Inflammation  

Authors: Cassandra E. Forsythe, Stephen D. Phinney, Maria Luz Fernandez, Erin E. Quann, Richard J. Wood, Doug M. Bibus, William J. Kraemer, Richard D. Feinman, Jeff S. Volek. (italics indicate author of current study)
Funding:  The Dr. Robert C. Atkins Foundation 
Journal:  Lipids 
In this study they took 40 overweight men and women with atherogenic dyslipidemia and put them on a VLC diet (C:F:P 12:59:28) or an LF diet (C:F:P  56:24:20) for 12 weeks.  The details of this study - presumably providing anthropometrics for the participants - were "described previously" in Comparative effects of dietary restriction of carbohydrate or fat on circulating saturated fatty acids and atherogenic dyslipidemia. Submitted for publication.  I found one other paper by this research group citing that study (also with submitted status), but no paper was ever published that I can find.  [11/29 EDIT:  Finally found the publication as it was referred to on Richard Feinman's blog.   Here is the paper:  Carbohydrate Restriction has a More Favorable Impact on the Metabolic Syndrome than a Low Fat Diet.  I don't have time to edit in any implications of the weight loss differential, etc. from this paper.  Will try to address this in a future post.]

So of note, the subjects were reported to consume ~1500 cal/day for the 12 weeks of their respective diets.  We are told:  
Dietary saturated fat and cholesterol intake were significantly higher during the VLCKD than the LFD. The LFD led to improvements in some metabolic markers, but subjects following the VLCKD had consistently greater weight loss, decreased adiposity, improved glycemic control and insulin sensitivity and more favorable TAG, HDL-C and total cholesterol/HDL-C ratio responses. In addition to these markers for MetS, the VLCKD subjects showed more favorable responses in alternative indicators of atherogenic dyslipidemia and cardiovascular risk: postprandial lipemia, apo B, apo A-1, the apo B/Apo A-1 ratio, LDL particle distribution and postabsorptive and postprandial vascular function. Most striking, we reported that despite a threefold higher intake of dietary saturated fat during the VLCKD compared to the LFD, circulating saturated fatty acids in TAG and CE were significantly decreased, as was 16:1n-7, an endogenous marker of lipogenesis. There were profound changes, as well, in other fatty acids in circulating TG, PL, and CE fractions (Tables 2–4).
Unfortunately, the VLCKD group averaged an approximately 850 cal/day deficit vs. baseline, while the LFD group only averaged around 600 cal/day deficit.  Whatever these other markers were or how favorable or unfavorable they might be, the results are irreparably confounded by the differing caloric deficits and resulting weight loss differential.    I'll discuss the full results vis a vis fatty acids in my post addressing the findings of the current study, but wish to make a few observations:
  • They didn't alter total absolute (grams) fat intake or absolute saturated fat intake in the VLCKD in this study.  Intake was roughly equivalent to baseline at around 100g total, 35g sat fat (note: some numbers not adding up on table).
  • The LF group reduced absolute carb intake by almost 60 g/day (roughly 20% of baseline intake of ~270 g/day)
  • It had long been established that DNL was not a major pathway and that any significant increases in this required high carb load and/or overfeeding calories.  See here and here.
However, the results here for palmitoleic acid would work out as follows:
VLCKD Before:  2.11 g/L total trig x 5L x 4.53% = 478 mg  ,  VLCKD After: 1.04 g/L total x 5L x 3.10% = 161 mg  ,  VLCKD Reduction = 0.317 grams of palmitoleic acid
LFD Before:  1.87 g/L total trig x 5L x 4.54% = 424 mg  ,  LFD After: 1.51 g/L total x 5L x 4.53% = 342 mg  ,  LFD Reduction = 0.082 grams of palmitoleic acid


2010:  Limited Effect of Dietary Saturated Fat on Plasma Saturated Fat in the Context of a Low Carbohydrate Diet

Authors: Cassandra E. Forsythe, Stephen D. Phinney, Richard D. Feinman, Brittanie M. Volk, Daniel Freidenreich, Erin Quann, Kevin Ballard, Michael J. Puglisi, Carl M. Maresh, William J. Kraemer, Douglas M. Bibus, Maria Luz Fernandez, Jeff S. Volek (italics indicate author of current study)
Funding:  American Egg Board-Egg Nutrition Center Dissertation Fellowship in Nutrition Award.
Journal:  Lipids 
In this study, they did a randomized cross-over study of 6 weeks duration for either a high sat fat low carb diet (CRD-SFA), or a high unsat fat low carb diet (CRD-UFA).  The subjects were 8 weight stable men.  The six week time frame was based on assertions that this was the time frame for lipids to stabilize in response to fish oil/omega 3, but whatever ....  For the three weeks before each 6-week intervention, the "run-in" (or "washout") was a "standard" low carb diet "using standardized procedures from [their] laboratory":  10% carb, 65% fat, 25% protein.  The diets interventions worked out to 12-13% carb, 58-59% fat,  29-30% protein.   I would note that the baseline data reported in this study was a little over 2000 calories of 34% carb, 41% fat, 25% protein.  
Nutrient intake estimated at baseline from dietary records showed a lower than expected energy, 2,072 kcal/d compared to 2,513 kcal/d for the feeding periods. This was likely due to under-reporting at baseline (Table 1) [22] although it has been argued that the demands of gluconeogenesis and other processes require more energy for weight maintenance [23].  Habitual carbohydrate intake was also lower than the average American diet at 32%en reflecting two subjects who were habitually consuming a lower-carbohydrate diet
So with a small sample size to begin with, they included two subjects who were chronic low carbers?  Odd.  Again, I'll address the other lipids, etc. in a separate post, but at weight stable caloric intake, both CRD's lowered fasting triglycerides roughly 40 points from the baseline average of 122 mg/dL.  Of course (what else is new) we cannot compare these results directly with current reports because the fatty acid profiles are of nanomol/mL units instead of weight percent.  Longer chain fatty acids would represent a higher weight percent per micromolar (nanomol per 0.001L = 10^-6 molar) concentration.

So they gave us the concentrations of palmitoleic under baseline, CRD-SFA and CRD-UFA conditions.  These were 147.4, 55.9, and 58.4 micromolar respectively.  This means that there was a range of 280 to 740 micromoles of palmitoleic acid in the blood stream of these 8 men throughout the study.  So less than one millimole = less than a one-thousandth of a mole which works out to about one-quarter of a gram maximum.  

The OSU Press Release ...

I'm going to C&P these numbers into the short DNL post I did with the numbers on the current study.  But it should be abundantly clear that this quote from Volek is wildly misleading and inaccurate:

If you burn saturated fat preferentially, then how come saturated fats make up around 30% of recycled fats??  The overwhelming source of triglycerides secreted by the liver in the fasted state is excess NEFA released from adipose tissue with some contribution likely due to chylomicron (dietary fat).   This is just nonsense.  


The Journal ...

Perhaps the editors at Lipids finally got the memo on these studies and took a pass on this third installment answering the question on absolutely nobody's mind.   Rather, here's what they sought fit to publish in their most recent issue (the Look Inside links go to an image of the first page for those interested):

  1. Original Article:  Hydroxyoctadecadienoic Acids Regulate Apoptosis in Human THP-1 Cells in a PPARγ-Dependent Manner  Venkat N. Vangaveti, Venkatesh M. Shashidhar, Catherine Rush, Usman H. Malabu…Pages 1181-1192  Look Inside Get Access
  2. Original Article:  Alpha-Lipoic Acid Supplementation Reduces mTORC1 Signaling in Skeletal Muscle from High Fat Fed, Obese Zucker Rats  Zhuyun Li, Cory M. Dungan, Bradley Carrier, Todd C. Rideout, David L. Williamson Pages 1193-1201  Look Inside Get Access
  3. Original Article:  Inducing Effect of Clofibric Acid on Stearoyl-CoA Desaturase in Intestinal Mucosa of Rats  Tohru Yamazaki, Makiko Kadokura, Yuki Mutoh, Takeshi Sakamoto, Mari Okazaki…Pages 1203-1214  Look Inside Get Access
  4. Original Article:  Vitamin E Conditionally Inhibits Atherosclerosis in ApoEKnockout Mice by Anti-oxidation and Regulation of Vasculature Gene Expressions  Futian Tang, Meili Lu, Suping Zhang, Meng Mei, Tieqiao Wang, Peiqing Liu…Pages 1215-1223  Look Inside Get Access
  5. High Density Lipoprotein Level is Negatively Associated With the Increase of Oxidized Low Density Lipoprotein Lipids After a Fatty Meal  Sanna Tiainen, Markku Ahotupa, Petteri Ylinen, Tommi Vasankari Pages 1225-1232  Look Inside Get Access
  6. Original Article:  Effect of Compounds Affecting ABCA1 Expression and CETP Activity on the HDL Pathway Involved in Intestinal Absorption of Lutein and Zeaxanthin   Eric J. Niesor, Evelyne Chaput, Jean-Luc Mary, Andreas Staempfli, Andreas Topp…Pages 1233-1243  Look Inside Get Access
  7. Communication:  Treatment of Low HDL-C Subjects with the CETP Modulator Dalcetrapib Increases Plasma Campesterol Only in Those Without ABCA1 and/or ApoA1 Mutations  Eric J. Niesor, David Kallend, Darren Bentley, John J. P. Kastelein…Pages 1245-1249  Look Inside Get Access
  8. Methods:  Separation of Enantiomeric Triacylglycerols by Chiral-Phase HPLC  Tomáš Řezanka, Karel Sigler  Pages 1251-1260  Look Inside Get Access
  9. Methods:  Separation and Detection of Plasmalogen in Marine Invertebrates by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography with Evaporative Light-Scattering Detection  Shinji Yamashita, Akihiro Abe, Kiyotaka Nakagawa, Mikio Kinoshita, Teruo Miyazawa  Pages 1261-1273  Look Inside


The Press Coverage Deluge ...


Which brings me back to the press coverage of this lackluster, would-be obscure article published in a pay-to-play journal.  It was splashed everywhere, copying the same quotes from Volek, and totally misrepresenting anything meaningful gained from the study (which wasn't much).

I usually don't think all that much about industry funding per se -- it shouldn't influence things -- and in many cases it doesn't.  The data are what they are after all.  And yet it does, which is where study design and interpretation come in.  Don't get me wrong, we've seen this with research by those advocating other dietary philosophies as well.  It should always be considered and viewed with skepticism.  When industries like Big Bovine, Large Leche and Enormo Egg get behind the research of a clearly ideologically driven researcher such as Volek, it's plain as day what is going on.  Is it any wonder that The Big Fat Surprise got all the buzz it did?  Nina Teicholz's case in that book -- the vaunted supreme science -- hinged on Atkins and meat/dairy/egg funded research by The New Atkins trio:  Westman, Volek and Phinney.    Oh ... and not to mention Richard "Entropy & Mirrors" Feinman among the authors of the first two studies.

It's shameful really, that nobody in the mainstream media can even look up from their coffee and smell the ketotic stench.  Speaking of that (coffee) ... with WARNING regarding profanity, and w/o specific endorsement (also, Harley needs to learn about gluconeogenesis!) -- aaaaannnnd veering somewhat off topic -- I bring you Durian Rider discussing the recent ABC Catalyst program:


Oh ... and in case you don't follow me on Twitter or FB ... Look who bumped into the big Kahuna of low carbers himself recently!!  

Top two:   Early July 2012 2nd month of Nutritional Ketosis
Bottom:  November 2014 2.5 years of NuttyK

Forgive me please.  If I didn't get little chuckle over this nonsense every now and then, I'd probably cry!!  


73 comments:

Gordon said...

The first person I thought of when I saw those shirts was David Duke ...

charles grashow said...

Please try to explain to me how ANYONE can look a the most recent photos of Jimmy Moore and say that his diet is working????? He looks like he's gotten fatter - my guess is he's now close to 300 lbs!!

charles grashow said...

Watch the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxpUX6iIeWY

John Smith said...

Durian is looking a little haggard but Jimmy is a sexy beast.

carbsane said...

Jimmy is limiting calories? LOL

NS said...

Lol... brilliant...

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

DR's got issues, although he has normalised a bit since being kicked out of the raw food camp. However, this contrast is certainly something to consider. These two aren't actually that far apart in terms of age-gap, but more importantly, they've been at their respective routines around the same window of time.

One guy's pretty much remained more or less the same and despite meat-heads having an issue with his smaller physique, he isn't a walking list of metabolic problems and questions. At best, he's got a serious case of hucksterism, dogma, and serious YouTube nut-baggery peppered with ADHD that has always been a constant for him anyway. It is beside the point.

On the other hand, Jimmy, living life in the safe, low sugar lane and avoiding all those evil carbohydrates and what not else, hasn't managed to control his weight or his overall metabolic condition from spiralling out the way it has over the last decade. His metabolic profile is disastrous and things have only gotten worse.

People in this blog's circle love to talk about 'the two extremes' in life styles in an intellectually crippled attempt at equivocation. However, in this particular meeting of the anecdotes, it's patently clear that one extreme is categorically disastrous while the other isn't in any comparable way. Ditto for the individuals concerned. Harley/DR has serious problems in terms of character, but physically, he seems to be doing great; probably not an inspiration to those looking to beef up, but that's a matter of arbitrary aesthetics.

NS said...

I don't agree entirely but you make some good points. A fairer comparsion would be a formerly obese person who succeeded on DRs way of eating in comparison to Jimmy. Obesity is absolutely a (hereditary) disease and clearly, Jimmy is battling fundamental genetic obesity issues .... (his mom had bypass surgery, only to regain.... and the same phenomenon occurs in mice as well. It's a brain/leptin issue. No one is going to start blaming mice, so we should try to keep it real: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25349056 )
... he's battling genetic issues in addition to his blindly and incorrigibly stupid nutritional paradigm. If he wasnt so dimwitted, he might find success in more sane, safer methods like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE6dnu1YDtQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4V2Zo3xEIw

carbsane said...

Well said! I agree. All nuttiness and whatnot aside, I think Harley looks great and body-type and age-appropriate in appearance I might add.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Good point, but it is beside the point that I was making. In case it wasn't noted: I didn't play on the fact that Jimmy's struggled with the same problem or that this struggle alone is a measurement of his dietary strategy. DR himself wasn't formerly obese, so I can appreciate that point. What I actually brought up was the added matter that Jimmy's gotten progressively worse despite the excessive micromanagement and various experimentation with all manner of 'healthy low carb diets'.

On that note, Evelyn's already brought up plenty of studies on Macrobiotics and that 'Hawaiian diet' on this blog. Similar anecdotes also exist plastered all over the McDougall forums, where people have not only gotten themselves back down to an actual normal weight range from serious cases of obesity, but have managed to maintain themselves and their health markers.

charles grashow said...

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2014/09/thoughts-on-mcdougall-advanced-study.html

Thoughts on the McDougall Advanced Study Weekend

"If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to choose between the McDougall diet and the Atkins diet for the rest of my life, I'd probably choose the McDougall diet. Most of the people I met seem to be aging gracefully on the McDougall diet, and I still feel there are questions to be answered about the long-term health impacts of Atkins-type diets. I still have major reservations about a 100 percent vegan diet, however, particularly for children.
Fortunately, no one is putting a gun to my head, so I'll stick with my starch-based diet that includes lots of nuts and a moderate amount of olive oil, butter, meat, seafood, eggs, and whole dairy."

NS said...

Fair enough. And I largely agree. But to understand why his efforts have failed requires discussion of things that are insanely complicated. My personal belief is that a big part of his health issues (other than diet and genes) come from the fact that he's dealing with serious chronic inflammation, probably from a viral infection. The issue of viral obesity is almost completely absent from the discussion yet it is absolutely real. In this state, many people CANNOT do well on the majority of carb foods, probably because of lectin sensitivity, You may know of www.selhacked.com. He's really brilliant. I think a lot of what he writes is accurate. Paleo Mom also has good things to say about this. I believe she is also chronically infected but has managed for the moment to manage her ailments through her AI protocol. In any case, it is estimated that at least 25% of the human population is dealing with this kind of issue. In the not too distant future, it'll be everybody. We will soon all be sick with no real treatment possibilities. Many many perfect storms. Obesigenic genes, insane food enviroments, sedentary lifestyle, and now, chronic infections that never heal. So, the comparison with DR should be viewed in this context.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

In the above studies, was there an accurate nutritional breakdown of the carbohydrates used? In studies involving Ron Krauss, "carbohydrates" were a 50:50 mixture of unspecified simple and unspecified complex carbohydrates. See http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/69/3/411.full and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2952573/ for 2 studies 11 years apart.

Bearing in mind that the results of Krauss' studies showed rapidly increasing percentage of pattern "B" (small, dense) LDL with increasing percentage of energy from carbohydrates, a wild guess is that the simple carbs were probably mostly fructose and the complex carbs were probably amylopectin & maltodextrin with no significant amylose.

When a researcher has an agenda, it's possible to achieve almost any desired outcome by "fixing" the methodology and/or statistics.

sautterron said...

"Harley/DR has serious problems in terms of character, but physically, he
seems to be doing great; probably not an inspiration to those looking
to beef up, but that's a matter of arbitrary aesthetics."

it's not only aesthetics, for people who actually use muscles on a daily basis having high strenght is a health-saving and even life-saving necessity. Think like firefighters, soldiers, Even people moving heavy things around - low muscle strengths puts them and people around them in danger during their work. You need quality proteins and carbs to both build muscules and have your glycogen stores replenished. Durianrider's diet and lifestyle is not conductive to high muscle growth.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Muscle strength and size and Harley's life style and how much muscle he needs and how well he can handle the long list of varying survival tasks is an entirely complex and long-winded discussion that is far from conclusive. Certainly in no way when it comes to his own personal life style. We know bugger all about his muscle strength and that's the point. There are plenty of people with smaller builds and muscle size who do in fact have enough strength to more than carry out any of these 'life saving' scenarios, below and beyond that is really personal preference.

Also, yes, more protein is needed to get more muscle synthesis. This is obvious. Even DR's made the same point in his endless rants in the past. Of course, none of this has anything to do with his personal strength, his strength goals, and whether this state in physique is having any negative impact on his survival skills, which reason would dictate seem highly improbable given his general life style.

sautterron said...

It seems like Jimmy has some hormonal issues - too low testosterone.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/low-testosterone-levels-possibly-contributing-to-my-infertility-fat-loss-struggles/12529

(this explains his high voice pitch).

It's also unavoidable that he has high estrogen with so much fat around, as fat produces estrogen. But this estrogen also may be genetic - the sign being that he has quite wide hips for a man? Look at his height alone also shows that he has a lot of growth hormone, surely above an average person. All this taken together predisposes to obesity.

So Jimmy should adopt some antiestrogenic diet, perhaps get bioidentical testosterone (not some booster), and use his growth hormone to his advantage by lifting heavy weights to build up muscles.

I'm not sure if the avertised antiestrogenic diets work (eg. the one by Ori Hofmeclker), but the examples of foods on the allowed list are: cruciferous vegetables, citrus fruits, omega-3 oil, assionflower, chamomile flower, green vegetables, all kinds of berries, apple, papaya, and pineaple, legumes (excluding soy), whole oats, and barley, sterol-rich foods - nuts, seeds, avocados, olives, stabilized rice germ oil.

A citation from Hofmeclker book :"Statistically, those on a low-carb diet are prone to suffer from a fat-gain rebound, often regaining more weight than they initially lost. This weight fluctuation may relate to the high prevalence of excess estrogenic substances in low-carb diets."

Lighthouse Keeper said...

Something is off kilter here, the chance of these two meeting accidentally in a city of one and a quarter million plus and in the brief time Jimmy Moore is in situ should raise eyebrows. Would Mr. Moore really wear that brash and over the top t-shirt whilst simply strolling around what appears to be a mundane suburban area where it cannot possibly have any relevance or context.

MacSmiley said...

I can see your point. It's certainly possible that the meeting was pre-arranged. OTOH, why Jimmy would agree to such a polar side-by-side comparison goes beyond all logic… aside from self-sabotage.

MacSmiley said...

Muscle strength and muscle size do not always correlate. Considering Harley's road-based 2-wheeled occupation, his slight build is quite appropriate. Reminds me of Kenyan marathoners. If he were a track sprint cyclist, he'd be at a significant disadvantage. Those guys have monster quads, calves, and hamstrings.

Lighthouse Keeper said...

Jimmy is most likely moving towards a keto version of "healthy at any size"

charles grashow said...

https://www.facebook.com/197363716986830/photos/a.198413193548549.51699.197363716986830/811938272196035/?type=1&theater

My HbA1c levels after almost 14 years eating over 600g of sugars per day

Screennamerequired said...

It wasn't a chance meeting. They obviously met up, for whatever reasons.
Keto, according to Jim was about health and his ability to not feel hungry and "spontaneously fast". Though looking at the 80+ pound weight gain I would assume he still has major hunger issues, which the protein restriction didn't help him with, long term. He promoted the fact that excess protein is like chocolate cake, though restricting protein for a few years made him lose weight he obviously hit a dead-end like most low carbers . He now looks as though he wouldn't be much worse off if he actually did eat chocolate cake.

Screennamerequired said...

I don't think he's interested in "high muscle growth". Neither am I personally. He seems to be more into endurance. But judging from some of his video's he seems to be very strong despite the fact that he doesn't look like a bulked gym junkie.
I have an athletic but extremely thin friend who is one of the strongest people I know. When it comes to weight lifting, wrestling and arm wrestling he can dominate guys who are not only more bulked up but have a height and weight advantage on him.

John Smith said...

Yup for someone who races bicycles over long distances extra muscle is a disadvantage.


People will spend $4,000 on a bike because it is two pounds lighter and a little more aerodynamic than a cheaper bike. If every pound matters then the rider would have a strong motivation to make himself as light and small-framed as possible. A biker racer has no use whatsoever for pectoral muscles.

carbsane said...

I have a friend who used to be paleo and is a competitive triathlete. He very much was interested in losing weight and leaning out when he decided to dedicate more to racing. He's a near vegan now and eats a boat ton of fruit. I'm not getting the idea that DR's physique is somehow a disadvantage or potential burden to society!

When I moved into my first apartment, the moving crew (company paid!) consisted of two men one of whom had DR's physique and the other who resembled Michael Clark Duncan. They handily carried my behemoth sofabed up to the second floor apartment between the two of them. There was no "light end" on that thing!

carbsane said...

You know what else is needed for muscle synthesis? Insulin :-)

carbsane said...

This explanation seems the least likely of all.

carbsane said...

Not in response to anyone in particular so I'll put this as a stand alone comment. My purpose for putting the Durian Rider stuff at the end was because he cracked me up with the caffeine addict thing in his video, and it was a funny coincidence that the pic of him and Jimmy had recently been posted.


I think Kade probably "gets it" the most about any DR vs. Jimmy comparison. I do not believe that anyone expects Jimmy to be a small man, nor does he have to achieve some arbitrary level of lean, etc. to be an advocate for his diet. I certainly don't look at a Harley type, or any of the never-even-been-overweight folks I hang out with in real life or on the internet and think "wow if everyone just ate like him/her, we'd all look like that".


The point is the passionate advocacy. I recall folks linking here a few times to a 30BAD sucks website. Basically some folks were gaining weight on the regime (and other issues). This is not uncommon for any program -- PaleoHacks was full of posts by distressed folks who were not only not realizing the promised weight loss but were actually gaining. While initial gains on a VLC program are rare, reports of plateauing out well short of goal and/or regaining while remaining true to carbohydrate restriction abound. THIS is the issue with Jimmy, and calling him and other low carbers out on it in my 3+ year old series on LC morphing into HAES. It goes something like this:
* I went low carb, look at my amazing before/after and how healthy I look
* I love LC so much, bacon and butter is a lifestyle not a diet
* Don't look now but I've been regaining ... but XYZ LC is da bomb!
* It's for my health! What? You thought it was for weight loss?
* It's not about weight, look at my triglycerides. That fat pig ahead of me in line at Sam's Club ... that's the person you don't want to be!


OK ... yeah, this brings out the snark. This isn't about why Jimmy Moore struggles with his weight. With him, there have been enough clues (most recently provided by Fat Head revelations regarding some sort of abuse endured in childhood, not to mention Jimmy Moore himself talking about his feelings of worthlessness etc. in prior jobs) for anyone wanting to speculate. What is important here is that since Jimmy Moore upped the fat content of his diet -- circa 2008 -- and ditched the cardio -- a while before that -- he has struggled with significant regains. As soon as his 1 year "experiment" ended, the regain began. This much is evident from AHS13. Jimmy went silent. He was too busy "thriving" to admit that his NuttyK was failing him. Of course when he was losing weight with NK, we learned of all of these health issues he was experiencing on his "healthy low carb lifestyle" and what a liar he was telling anyone who would listen how he was "the healthIEST he's ever been" as he approached and surpassed the 300 lb mark.


Is he close to that now? I don't know and I don't care. He is not a healthy man which would be nobody's business were he not out there claiming that he is and encouraging others to follow in his footsteps. He is also NOT healthier for following his various diet schemes for the past decade. This is a sad reality, but he his health has been in decline since 2005. There is not a single biomarker in which he has seen further improvement or maintenance of his remarkable health turn-around in 2005. His is a mouthpiece for spreading disinformation and it is an incestuous, dishonest community in which he is considered a credible voice.

carbsane said...

Yes, Jimmy Moore loves that t-shirt.


But I'm not averse to the idea that the meeting was planned. Perhaps to drum up expectations for when Jimmy returns to podcasting after sacrificing his health so others may benefit. Perhaps some crafted conflict with a few you tube previews and lots of nastiness?

Eh ... he is the drama queen. Wonder how many will recall his first podcast with Harley which went rather ho hummingly smoothly w/o much if any animus.

charles grashow said...

Jimmy Moore has ZERO credibility. He's lied repeatedly in the past. If he's now talking about childhood abuse, feelings of worthlessness, the fact he was a large baby, etc is irrelevant. He's looking for pity. Poor, poor Jimmy Moore - he's trying his best.

He's a CON MAN in the purest sense

charles grashow said...

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-fall-2014-cholesterol-thyroid-and-other-health-test-results/23857

carbsane said...

I agree. This man wouldn't know honesty if it came wrapped in Kerrygold. And it's all around dishonesty we're talking about here, not the sort of intellectual kind one can at least somewhat justify in those like Taubes who have seemingly gotten sucked into their own self-reinforcing scientific black holes. Jimmy Moore is not a man of integrity. I feel comfortable saying that without reservation.

charles grashow said...

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/11/calorie-shifting-refeeding-for-max-fat.html

Calorie Shifting (Refeeding) for Max. Fat Loss: Classic Body Building Principle Has Overweight Women Lose 8kg of Pure Fat in 42 Days - 2.6x More Than Calories In vs. Out Predicts

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018593/
Calorie Shifting Diet Versus Calorie Restriction Diet: A Comparative Clinical Trial Study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157047/
Caffeine Treatment Prevented from Weight Regain after Calorie Shifting Diet Induced Weight Loss

MacSmiley said...

So do you think Jimmy is about to give in and go NuttyF? Nutritional Fructosis?? 😜

Nutrivorous said...

30 bananas has as much protein as 20 8-ounce blocks of Kerrygold butter.

Lighthouse Keeper said...

That was a good double bill, Durianrider and Don Matesz (after farewell to paleo) in one show, nearly ran out of popcorn.

Nutrivorous said...

If you're going to make stuff up, why make up 288 total cholesterol, 193 LDL and a 45 pound weight gain? I'd take him at his word that these are his actual test numbers. Some of the numbers might be manipulated by 'dietary supplements' or prescription medications, but I'm personally confident that he is eating what he says he's eating and that his numbers are what he says they are.

charles grashow said...

In Feb 2014 his TC was 392. He doesn't admit to taking any meds so please explain haw he could gain at least 45 lbs while normailizing his thyroid, decreasing his TC and increasing his testosterone??

2lbs of Starch said...

I don't think Jimmy knew Durianrider was coming. Durianrider probably knew about the Low Carb Down Under tour, and hunted him down. I messaged DR on Strava that day, but he probably was already in transit, and tracking Jimmy down. It made an epic photo comparing "nutritional ketosis" vs. "Carb The F*** Up".

Nutrivorous said...

He advertises something called "Glycosolve", which contains Berberine, which does lower cholesterol.

charles grashow said...

He stopped taking that multiple months ago

NS said...

Yes, it's hard for people lacking direct experience to see, especially since it's largely invisible and insidious. But have no doubt... it's there. Just like the germs that Semellweis saw that nobody else could or wanted to ... and for which he was put in a mental asylum and beaten to death, despite the fact that he was right. We will all be infected soon including our children and the obesity epidemic you see today will be mild compared to the coming explosion of metabolic pathology. Very few people realize this. But those, say, living with ME/CFS or Lyme or Hepatitis or any other form of chronic infection that never goes away... they know. It has already been repeatedly shown that these pathogens change one's genetics and "turn on" the genes associated with insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction. Jimmy's wife, based on my limited inspection of videos on youtube, seems to be suffering from the same infection I have. And if she has it, they both do, as well as everone else in their families. I have directly seen it causing extreme obesity, among friends and family, even in people with no prior history of overweight. People may think I am insane. That's fine. But they shouldn't dismiss the argument. I know what I've seen. Here are some links for your reference:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/10/2794S.long

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987708006142

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21609264

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19098853

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908526

http://www.microbemagazine.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5068:virus-induced-obesity-in-humans&Itemid=1252

http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070820/obesity-virus-more-bigger-fat-cells

http://www.obesityaction.org/educational-resources/resource-articles-2/general-articles/obesity-due-to-a-virus-how-this-changes-the-game

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/infectobesity-adenovirus-36-and-childhood-obesity/

http://blogs.plos.org/obesitypanacea/2012/10/03/infectobesity-is-obesity-transmitted-through-a-common-viral-infection/

http://synapse.koreamed.org/Synapse/Data/PDFData/0079JBV/jbv-41-65.pdf

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/western-surge-in-obesity-may-have-been-caused-by-a-virus-2084737.html

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/09/obesity-often-an-infectious-disease/

https://chronicsorethroat.wordpress.com/

NS said...

Here, a couple of more on the mechanisms:

http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/22275403/Adenovirus-36-as-an-obesity-agent-maintains-the-obesity-state-by-increasing-MCP-1-and-inducing-infla

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23409929

Screennamerequired said...

BUT TC IS MEANINGLESS iF YOUR TG's ARE LOW AND HDL IS HIGH.
It's that what he and his comrades have been saying for years?
288 still isn't a great TC to be bragging about. I'm guessing his LDL and LDL-p is still extremely elevated. Dayspring was the most qualified person he took quotes from in his book and he doesn't seem very comfortable with Jimmy dismissing his LDL and particle number.


My guess is that he's been experimenting with the raw potato starch trend whilst also sneaking in way to many stevia sweetened keto approved high fat desserts.

Screennamerequired said...

True. I think the bodybuilding paleo protein loving people are trying to justify their bulky builds as making them more healthy than the lean athletic types because it's part of the macho caveman stereotype.


I may be wrong, but judging from my time spent on forums I'm almost certain that the majority of these people have short man syndrome. Bulky protruding muscles and a macho attitude for them to them is a way to boost their self esteem. Slaughtering or catching your own meat only adds to your manliness.


IMO, nothing looks sillier than an extremely bulked up short man. I'd take durianriders psychic any day.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

(Insulin) Resistance is futile!

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Would this friend of yours happen to be CJ/Castle Grok by any chance? He has generally progressed along a similar path.

Anyway, regarding physique. I am least surprised by your example because that's what I've generally seen when it's come to people carrying heavy furniture and equipment in delivery scenarios. I could name countless anecdotes that also confer with this observation. It's actually intellectual dishonesty to frame people of Harley's physique in the manner that some of these paleo rationalisers do out of some misplaced sense of egotistical inadequacy. Some of the best general lifers--handling proper day to day heavy lifting tasks on a regular basis--and even martial artists that I have I seen, were actually on the leaner, smaller side with an ideal balance between basic body strength and agility. A far cry from anything that could be considered remotely burdensome.

carbsane said...

Yep that's him :-)


On the whole, paleo men are a low self esteem bunch with reciprocal egos to match.

John Smith said...

Paleos seem to hold DR's bike riding prowess against him, guess it's not macho enough to suit them, they like sports that involve swinging a large axe.

carbsane said...

Since you mentioned his wife -- her health has declined precipitously since she began adopting his diet more and more. No doubt some of his eating disorder has rubbed off on her, but in 2009 she was not following a low carb diet. She's another liar because she claims she didn't change a thing and gained 30 lbs due to thyroid issues. This does not square with blog posts and Jimmy's statements on tape where she's been in the background and he's asked her to speak up stating just the opposite (changing up the diet) . Well, of course one can never attribute any of these issues to the progressively more extreme LC diet, right?


It's a case of Occam's Razor with these two. Ignore all indicators smacking you in your face in favor of some mysterious culprit. Sorry but anyone capable of intermittent fasting on one diet but formerly consuming dozens of Cokes and boxes of Little Debbies is not someone who should be looking to infection as a cause of their issues. His butter antics are what is causing his obesity.


BTW, Jimmy's father (to whom he bears more resemblance than his mother who his late brother resembled more) is not obese though he has that tendency to carry what weight he does in his abdomen. If genetics have dealt him a bad hand it is that distribution.

charles grashow said...

https://www.facebook.com/LLVLC/posts/445459655582007
On 2/8/14 his TC was 392 and his HDL was 70

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-random-fall-2013-health-test-results/20619

On 11/5 2013 his total testosterone was 653

SO - his TC fell and his testosterone rose - both by over 100 points.

Why then does he lack muscle mass of any kind?? Why didn't the king of blood work run a NMR test this time to see what his LDL-P was??

He is not to be believed.

NS said...

CS,


I'm not at all disputing the insanity of his eating regimens, Little Debbies or sticks of Kerry Gold. And I agree with virtually all of the sentiments here. He is a liar, an ideologue, spectacularly senseless, deeply lacking in sincerity, couldn't give a hoot who is hurt in the process of his brainless LLVLC webpire, if one can call it that, etc.. And yes, his wife seems to be at least equally intellectually bereft as well as character flawed as he is. But even such people can get sick and develop ailments that make their struggle fundamentally different and exponentially harder. For decades, ME/CFS patients have been utterly ignored and offered only useless cognitive therapy and even more useless antidepressants. Only recently have the NIH and others including top viral researchers begun to take their disease seriously. Did their disease only come into existence when the NIH decided to take them seriously? This is the nature of visibility and invisibilty in scientific discovery. It's always like that. Phenomena always come first... and our explanations and theories of them, much later, if ever. Above, I have posted many, many links which show the strong association, and highly suggest the causal relationship between chronic viral infection, inflammaton, and fat orage, This is a new area of research in dire need of attention. But I don't need research to convince me of what I have personally seen and experienced. I know what I have seen. Absence of evidence is not in any way equal to evidence of absence. I would suggest that you take time to review the links above and seriously consider the consequences on our current understanding of obesity.

charles grashow said...

A day in the life of Dr. Steve Phinney

http://instagram.com/p/v-G4e3TJqv/



compare and contrast with JM's

charles grashow said...

http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot.com/2012/12/does-nutritional-ketosis-require-85-fat.html

Does "Nutritional Ketosis" Require 85% Fat?
For some if you bring calories into the discussion of low-carb diets, you're pontificating, unless of course you're not.

"...of course, if one eats too much fat during that low-carb diet, you're not going to LOSE WEIGHT; there are differences in metabolism, but calories count in the process of eating a low-carb diet."
-Steve Phinney
August 25, 2012, Ask the Low Carb Experts Podcast


http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2012/08/23-long-term-stalls-weight-gain-even-on-a-well-formulated-low-carb-diet-dr-stephen-phinney/

23: Long-Term Stalls and Weight Gain Even On A Well-Formulated Low-Carb Diet | Dr. Stephen Phinney

charles grashow said...

http://aaron.emascc.com/diet/ebooks/Lyle_McDonald_-_The_Ketogenic_Diet.pdf
The Ketogenic Diet: A complete guide for the Dieter and Practitioner
Lyle McDonald

2lbs of Starch said...

Looks like torture. These guys must think that bread and noodles are poison. Or they think that the more extreme a diet is, the more effective it is. They scrutinize all the biochemistry down to the mitochondria, showing how adaptable and amazing the body is at fueling itself. Then they conclude that they have to avoid even 10g of carbs at all costs (and a million years of human evolution).

This LCHF obsession is more like an extreme hobby club than anything else. It's semi-competitive, and you earn points for eating the most fat and the least carbs.

Rosie May said...

With 2 cups of mixed greens on the menu? Jimmy would have to avoid this meal plan like the plague, unless he wants a new career as a sumo wrestler.

Rosie May said...

This has me thinking about the awesome strength and technique of male professional ice skaters and ballet dancers who can lift a 6-7 stone woman clear above their heads with one hand and hold them there without wobbling,some are quite well built but some aren't !

charles grashow said...

It's also way too high in protein - according to Jimmy. That ICE CREAM - with sucralose/xylitol!! He'll faint at the mere sight of it!

Screennamerequired said...

Another thing I found interesting. Durianriders psychic is much closer to the various skinny hunter gatherers that the paleo people seem to idolize. I've seen countless tribes of extremely thin hunter gatherer's. Apparently the maasai are one of the paleo templates for good health, but they are often even slimmer than durianrider. Apparently he is unhealthy looking but just do a google search of hunter gatherers and see what you find.

Screennamerequired said...

If a real hunter gather walked into a paleo gym his slim build would probably be laughed at. They would probably be recommended the paleo diet. lol

John Smith said...

There is also the possibility of mental health issues, which are not unknown in the LC world. He appears to be self-employed so, prior to Obamacare, health insurance would be totally unobtainable for him, even slimmed down there would be too many red flags for him to get a policy. Even if he now has insurance I doubt he uses mainstream healthcare resources because they would read him the riot act.


People who turn LC into a lifestyle rather than a diet tend to be on the nutty side.

charles grashow said...

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-do-i-eat-2013-update.html

What do I eat? 2013 update
Breakfast is always the same. I melt about 100g of butter in a frying pan. I crack 11 eggs yolks in to this (I fry the whites later for the chickens!) and fry them until they hold their shape. I then pour 8 yolks for myself and Hazel, with all of the free butter, in to a bowl and mash them with a fork before stirring the mix in to an "egg soup". Hazel has a dollop, I have the rest. We like it quite solid. I finish any Hazel doesn't want, hopefully I get six yolks worth. Daniel likes his yolks just fried, he has the other three.

If I feel like it, I have a creamy cocoa, ie about 4g cocoa powder, 2ml honey, maybe somewhere between 30 and 60ml double cream. Usually a decaff coffee too. Sometimes with caffeine, though I tend to prefer my caffeine in the evenings.

Lunch on work days is portable stearic acid as 100g of Lindt 90% cocoa solids chocolate. Sometimes with 100g macadamias, sometimes not. Occasionally 300ml of soured cream along side some chocolate.

Supper is a meal. It varies a lot. If you scroll down the index to the set of posts starting with "Food" you get the idea of the sort of things I eat for a main meal. I have been known to eat green leaves with supper. I have been known to eat parsnip chips. I have been known to have gluten free home made cake for desert under a centimetre of butter or drowned in soured cream. If fat has been a little low with supper I might make ice cream with just a little added sugar. Or rhubarb baked in cream and flavoured with cinnamon. Or another creamy cocoa.

Alcohol, some. I like dry wine and gluten free beer. Never a huge amount.

carbsane said...

He had insurance before he chose to be self employed. He has spent thousands on keto sticks and what not ... even with no insurance, these funds alone could have diagnosed his life threatening (kidney) health issues long ago. I have numerous friends who are quite well off entrepreneurs where one spouse works part time just for health insurance. Last I checked these two are both able bodied.

Lighthouse Keeper said...

I agree, no reason on this earth why any hunter gatherer would have to have heavier musculature than Durianrider. This concept of a Herculean body ideal belongs to mythology and hero worship.

albie_cilliers said...

Not a lot people seems to know this ...

Bris Vegas said...

Thousands of wild chimpanzees will be shocked by your revelations. I mean how can they have 1% body fat and 6x the strength of a human when they get 90-95% of their calories from fruit.?

Bris Vegas said...

Insulin is classified as an illegal performance enhancing drug for athletes. [Unless you are a medically diagnosed diabetic.]

Bris Vegas said...

Unfortunately road cyclists are at high risk of spinal osteoporosis because they never exercise their upper bodies.

Bris Vegas said...

Most bodybuilders are closet gays. Very few heterosexual women are attracted to hugeuscles - they like lean and athletic physiques.

Bris Vegas said...

I had fat parents and I have two very fat sisters. I'm lean. There is no genetics involved. I exercise and eat carefully and my sisters don't.

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