las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Friday, February 4, 2011

More Todd Becker (Getting Stronger blog) on Insulin

I am really enjoying the back and forth that has ensued between Todd and I following my Insulin Wars installment on his commentary on James Krieger's series on insulin.  For those who are unfamiliar, here are the links to content on this blog:


I received an email from Todd that he will be responding once again so stay tuned for version IV.2 and continued discussion!  Todd certainly gets the old gray matter working.  Reading a bit more at his blog I think we have some areas of agreement regarding this beleaguered hormone.

In the meantime, Todd has posted a discussion of his own at his blog:  Does insulin make you fat?  
I have some comments on that to add over there, hopefully soon.  

Also, don't miss Todd's interview with Jimmy Moore.  I haven't listened to this one yet, but I will be!

18 comments:

Christian said...

"Obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation resulting from insulin resistance, which stimulates appetite and naturally leads to caloric imbalance, including overconsumption of both carbohydrates and fats."

I hope you are going to correct him in so far that this would cause the space-time continuum to explode because of the magic net mass / energy creating effects - out of nothing - that obviously violates the first law of thermodynamics. Please don't disappoint me. ;)

M. said...

Christian, you seem fixated on the whole thermodynamics things. The only reason it has become an issue is because Taubes tried to use it as a gimmick to say that calories don’t count.

People have known all along that biochemistry can affect consumption and energy expenditure. Some people think that nutrient deficiencies are what drive people to overeat. Some people overeat when they are bored or depressed. People have tried to treat obesity pharmacologically for decades before Taubes wrote his book. Not wanting to die has been a good biological “motivator” to eat for millennia.

A biochemical “motivator” isn’t a new concept, and at the end of the day you still put energy in. I guess you can argue all day whether a biochemical “motivator” has anything to do with TFLOT and direction of causality, but it is really pointless.

Taubes just tried to come up with an argument (TFLOT direction of causality) that explicitly excluded the role of consumption or energy expenditure. In his Jimmy Moore interview he said his theory has nothing to do with satiety signals or other hormonal responses to foods (because that all links back to appetite and consumption.) It is all just a gimmick argument so that he can say that calories don’t count, and I don’t think anybody would be talking about it unless he brought it up.

CarbSane said...

Christian, I actually see Todd proposing the following progression: IR -> appetite -> overeating -> + calorie balance = fat accumulation. So he clearly believes, as some others do, that IR is a cause of obesity. I'll do my best to convince him otherwise ;)

Christian said...

And I am sure you will do an outstanding job ;). But don't forget to include the part where the universe explodes.

Margaret said...

Here's a good paper: "Where does insulin resistance start? The adipose tissue. Iozzo P. Diabetes Care 2009;32(Suppl 2):S168-S173." Note that there is a difference between the causes of insulin resistance in lean and obese people and it has a lot to do with cortisol. So Todd's proposal could be true for people who develop insulin resistance before they become obese, while other people develop obesity (through excess calorie consumption) that then leads to insulin resistance. There are also obese people who don't have insulin resistance. It all depends on your genetically determined metabolic profile.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Hi Margaret.

What do you think of Insulin Resistance: Solutions to problems.?

Nige.

CarbSane said...

Hi Margaret! I'm seeing a pic now so not sure if you're the same as a previous commenter. If not, Welcome!

Interestingly, I blogged on that very paper: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/12/where-does-insulin-resistance-start.html

This was a bit different than IR that develops over time (that also seems to start in the fat, albeit the liver and other tissues may not be far behind). As in that discussion, I am perplexed how fat tissue insulin resistance would lead to obesity, however. If insulin can't do its thing that favors fat mobilization so how would fat accumulate? It's going to be a while but I've got a "thinking out loud" piece on IR in the pike.

Sanjeev said...

at 30:45 minutes:
preprandial insulin "much much larger in overweight people"

(if you use "cephalic" in your search you'll get more hits than preprandial)

I didn't filter my hits - just reporting the top 2
a 10 second search (but I've done this search before & found other papers saying the same thing)

upshot: the absolute amount is SLIGHTLY higher for the obese, but adjusted for base level insulin it's lower.

and another slightly more detailed abstract

Sanjeev said...

(I picked studies from the 1st page, not articles).

If I remember correctly James Krieger in one of the insulin myths discussions (not in the article body) also pointed out that studies have found lower cephalic (preprandial) insulin in the obese

Margaret said...

Thanks CS - yes, I am the same commenter as before, I just got rid of one of my Google accounts and used the one with the pic instead! I look forward to seeing your "think out loud piece" - IR is a complex subject. Didn't realize you had commented on that paper before - I'll take a look at that, as well as Nigel's link, this weekend.

Leo said...

@Christian
Obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation resulting from insulin resistance

This is so anti-scientific to be embarassing.
It's universally known that insulin resistance is the way the body tries to PREVENT OBESITY, cells becomes resistanct so the body doesn't become fat.

It would be impossible for insulin resistance to cause obesity since IR if the biggest antagonist of obesity.

JC Carter said...

M,

low carb zealots have been misusing thermodynamic arguments for a long time before taubes took up the same stupid cause.

Christian said...

Leo, why do you direct that statement at me? I just quoted from Todd's page. I never claimed that insulin resistance causes obesity.

Wolfstriked said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wolfstriked said...

Taken from the Todd Blecker blog

"""""Insulin doesn’t make you hungry; rather, it suppresses appetite. (The critics proffer that low carb diets may work because protein is more satiating than carbohydrates, but they merely report this observation and don’t attempt to explain it)."""""

From above ....Insulin doesn't make you hungry rather it suppresses appetite.That first line is confusing.

I believe you need to forget insulin and look at lean mass maintenance as to how the protein suppresses appetite.Remember protein causes a very high insulin response also and beef is equal with many carb choices after all.So "reporting" as to why protein is higher satiating than other foods....the body "must" maintain its mass as when the mass of the body disappears.....we disappear.

Wolfstriked said...

There must be a way that the body senses positive nitrogen retention and is just not brought to the front like insulin is.When you are in positive nitrogen balance than the body has one less appetite to feed.

When your blood sugar drops is another appetite spark and is added to the above.This is where the insulin resistance adds to the problem and is made worse when the person becomes a sweet head and doesnt try to eat a good amount of protein each day.

As to fat,maybe there is a mechanism of fat release that signals appetite....wait isnt that leptin??

CarbSane said...

Wolfstriked: That Nutrient Fates post (it's in the top 5 roll upper right) discusses N balance and protein. I'm pretty sure that's the one anyway.

Leo said...

@Christian
sorry for quoting you wrong

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