las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Friday, August 31, 2012

I'm much less confused now!

So I listened to the Paleo Podcaster Roundup on Sean Croxton's Underground Wellness podcast guest hosted by Jimmy Moore.  Here's the intro:
Guest host Jimmy Moore of the Livin' La Vida Low Carb Blog & Podcast returns to UW Radio for a roundtable with Paleo experts including Stefani Ruper, Dean Dwyer, Dr. Colin Champ, and Abel James. The gang discusses the importance of the Paleo and Real Food blogosphere, critiques of the low-carb diet, and important steps you can take to find the diet that is right for YOU.
Yeah, Sean's on vacation, so perhaps Jimmy wrote this up, but for starters, how in heck did this gang become experts in paleo all of a sudden?  But ...


Half of the podcast was about ... podcasting.

Diet?  What's paleo?  Whole food.  A low crap diet.  Heck, they didn't even repeat the no grains no legumes meme that at least 90% of paleo seems to agree on (or maybe they mentioned it but I cannot listen again).   I've gone to Ruper's site time and again and can find no definition what "paleo" even means to her.  Folks eating real whole foods that grow from the ground (this was either Champ or Abel) does not require us to harken back to the paleolithic era!!  

Controversy:  Carbs!  Champ gets all passionate:  Just get off the addictive carbohydrates.  Sugar is more  addictive than cocaine.  Carbs make you overeat.  Most importantly, the people who have problems on LC are doing it wrong!  Fer cryin' out loud, I'm SOOO sick of this nonsense.  Jimmy started doing LC more "right" circa 2008 and piling the fat on his food ... remind us how he's faring??  And please, the ketogenic diets are NOT whole foods.    Here's where paleo fantasy comes in again and again.

The money quote, asked by Jimmy about the popularity of paleo, Abel:
Now we have something to call it right, because you [Jimmy] started this long before paleo was known at least in this way as being what it is today as  low carb but it's also subsumed all these other little groups.  You know you have the real food people, body building,  cross fitters, the science crowd, and so many people in between and on the fringe.   So I think because we have all of these distinct groups banding together it gives us enormous power.  That's promising stuff.
Paleo is not low carb, and paleo cannot subsume other groups to form any sort of unified vision.  This is why the symbolic gesture at AHS, where Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson joined WAPF was a hollow farce.  But Abel, here's a newsflash:  You DON'T have the science crowd.  You don't want to address the science.  Remember Jack Kruse Abel?  Yeah, Abel's podcast shot to #2 on iTunes in one month for one reason, and one reason only:  his podcast with known liar, scammer and science fictionist Jack Kruse.  And he did make an appearance here at the Asylum (I guess he just has a really really long list of guests and hasn't gotten to me yet -- grin!).  Ancestral could be a big tent to include paleo, but paleo can NEVER be a big tent to include "all those little fringe groups".   This is the problem because those groups and personalities are NOT banding together, they're being asked to suck it up for the sake of the community and just STFU if they have anything but praise for its leaders.  Nevermind that paleo and non-paleo types alike mangle and/or misrepresent science all the time and just flat out make sheet up.

And now there's newcomer to the party, Stefani Ruper, out to enlighten us on the science of the paleo diet for women-specific issues, right?  Sorry, she just doesn't count when it comes to science.  She did one post on fasting for women, but one would be hard pressed to wade through the PFW site to find it under all the kickass womanhoodedness.   More recently she got all excited that Mark Sisson is talking about female body fat.  (There are some claims in his post that don't add up, but ...).   Since Stefani started out the podcast discussing how she now felt confident bringing "honest science" and a voice to women in paleo, this is relevant.  So in her recent post on female body fat we get:
Women store fat in their abdomens during menopause fairly frequently. This is because estrogen levels are dropping sharply. Many women supplement with bio-identical hormones, in fact, and see their weight gain / weight shift minimize. Another great way to mitigate this problem is to eat a diet consisting of whole foods, which will minimize insulin spiking that can also contribute to abdominal fat gain, and which will also keep hormone levels fairly well-balanced.
I don't blog much about abdominal fat in menopause, not because I don't have an interest in it, or haven't tried to research it, but because I've come across very little evidence in all of that research that diet can change much.  Indeed my biggest disappointment with Eades 6 Week Cure was that it did not deliver on its promise of all the latest research on dietary interventions for abdominal fat, but rather that we learned offhand that Mary Dan used (uses) bioidentical hormones to address her middle aged middle.  Whole foods and insulin spikes?  Sigh.   But gee ... where have I heard about female fat before?  Why from Melissa McEwen at Hunt Gather Love .  Indeed Mark cites that post, so it becomes increasingly odd how Ms. Paleo for Women, and Ms. Rise Up & Roar encouraging women to speak up for our issues, ignores women's voices and turns her back on them when there's male attentions, accolades and acknowledgement to be had instead.  No blogroll of female paleo voices at PFW either, but I've gone on a bit of a tangent there ...

I'll wrap this up discussing the paleo podcaster in chief, Jimmy Moore.  What?  You say he's not paleo?  What?  You say paleo is not low carb?  Well, he is the biggest problem in the paleo=LC problem, antagonism, and all that jazz.  Melissa Hartwig of Whole9 recently tweeted dismay about this presumed equivalence.  I say to her and all paleos who have a problem with it, STOP going on his podcast!!   Jimmy mentions how he used to be surprised how many of those who listen to one of his podcasts don't listen to another, or read his blog, etc.  This is important ... because what picture did he send Sean to put on the podcast?  Why the 2005 "thinker pose" ... and as he sat around discussing real food and even addressing crappy ingredients in LC foods, how many of these paleo peeps that may be called upon as guests realize their podcasts are being sponsored by Leaner Living and now Diets to Go prepackaged LC crap.

Do they care?  It would appear not, and I'll leave you to ponder as to why that is. But thanks for clearing up any confusion I might have had ...

68 comments:

Charles Grashow said...

The entire "Paleo" movement is now nothing more than a giant scam that is being monetized by anyone who thinks they can make a $$$ out of any part of it.

No one knows what a "paleo" diet really is. If we did there wouldn't be so many variations.

Generally the only thing that the vast majority of people seem to agree on is that we should try to eliminate as much overly processed crap as we can - after that not much agreement.

Grains are good/grains are bad
Carbs are good/carbs are bad
Dairy is good/dairy is bad

Eat this/don't eat that

Fast one/two days per week/IF between 12-16 hours per day

Do this/don't do that

Take the red pill/take the blue pill

So much confusion



Zbig said...

I guess I have finally worked out what makes us fat. It's not carbs, nor insulin, not eating too much, it's .... our spouses!

If I'm not mistaken, you're pointing at your meals together with your hubby as a factor that keeps you from becoming a supermodel? If macros didn't matter and "eat less" worked then it shouldn't be a problem, because one can always control the portion size.

I had similar experience - only after I got married I gained about 40 pounds. So this would offer a pretty good explanation of why JM is overweight? He's married, please take this into consideration when criticizing him :)

The same applies to Robb Wolf - I remember Durianrider pointing at his belly a couple years ago.

So how to reverse it phenomenon? My answer is kids - Robb has one and is lean now, I got two and lost what I had gained, Gary Taubes is lean and has kid(s) as far as I know, Mark Sisson.....

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I know you're being facetious, but (1) I do not want to be a supermodel and (2) When Jimmy married his wife was sub 100 lbs. So his weight problems clearly caused her's and almost doubling one's weight counts. Peeps gonna interpret what I say however they want. In general, marriage is positive for men's health, detrimental to women's. FWIW. But I wouldn't give up my hubs for supermodeldom.

Galina L. said...

Which expert decided that being "ripped" and have no belly fat especially after 50 is Paleo for females? Having nipples on the belly-button level is much more in HG traditions.

Unknown said...

That is so hot ....

Sanjeev said...

Christakis & Fowler


copy and paste to ensure yourself it's work safe:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:uNplgsGkJ3AJ:jhfowler.ucsd.edu/spread_of_obesity.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiAr2hQvcdOsSAadnHGTgLN7wS_UYPpQdoxVOyMTQj_7UHnnVaKnP6BZCR54ALzzF5Vn2FA6fD6I2cWgsqQSOf-VfGHU6HUqaWlJRKli-I5wZJuIS3ZES1CHzLD3kAUUI-fAogu&sig=AHIEtbSPHkpbyGUwDJjV8_GvM1hq2oSaZA

google for more

copy & paste
https://www.google.ca/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=obesity+epidemic+modeling&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&redir_esc=&ei=qhFBUIuyNcqzygG-84DoCg#hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=EFY&channel=fs&sclient=psy-ab&q=obesity+epidemic+modeling+spread+&oq=obesity+epidemic+modeling+spread+&gs_l=serp.3...42978.45337.0.45488.10.8.1.0.0.0.200.1057.2j5j1.8.0...0.0...1c.FwhPHZxRxKU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=224690251ea67685&biw=1158&bih=788

Kindke said...

low carb is subset of paleo. Infact you could easily say low-carb is paleo without the tubers. MY definition of paleo is different to those who would call themselves experts, my definition of paleo is simply, eat foods as nature gives them to you.

Also your point about estrogen and bellyfat is right I would think, estrogen resists fat deposition in the waist/belly area, I seriously DOUBT any dietary intervention could make up for a loss of estrogen.

Its almost like saying dietary intervention could compensate for the loss of testosterone in a castrated man.

bollocks!!! :)

Charles Grashow said...

"my definition of paleo is simply, eat foods as nature gives them to you."

Does that preclude cooking?

screennamerequired said...

This guy done 71 videos dedicated to tearing down the whole paleo idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egqf7k5Lzhk
If you can get over his tone of voice and bias and wade through a lot of his videos he actually dispels a lot of myths.

bentleyj74 said...

Kindke,

Can't forget though that body fat also produces estrogen. I'm inclined to think that in most cases body fat storage patterns are largely genetically determined and overall having any sort of hormone either in excess or deficit is going to be problematic. I would not recommend to an overweight person with abdominal fat that they gain some more fat to produce more estrogen, I would suggest losing fat mass.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I see paleo and lc as two different approaches with some (but way overstated it seems) overlap between them. I find it hilarious that Dana Carpender, queen of Splenda, was at AHS -- likely to hawk her new paleo cookbook. Eat foods as nature gives them to you is not a bad definition, I'd think cooking could be allowed in such a plan. But all of these recipes for paleo pizza and added fats and coconut butter and almond flour pancakes and whatnot ...

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I've watched a few of those. You're right ... he does make some good points.

Charles Grashow said...

But Plant Positive is a strict vegan -

http://www.plantpositive.com/blog/

Welcome to The Primitive Nutrition Series! Created by someone who was nearly seduced by the Paleo Diet idea before going vegan, these videos provide a wide-ranging response to the evolution-inspired rationale for meat eating which so many have uncritically accepted.

Galina L. said...

As Evelyn pointed out in previous discussion about Paleo approach to a diet, my own diet contains enough of modern choices like coffee with cream daily and deli meats often in order to be considered modern, my hygiene practices are up-to date, there are some artificial teeth in my mouth,I color my hair,do not smoke like Kitovans, but I use some ideas from Paleo blogs like getting grass-fed meat and organ meats more often and try to opt less for conventional meat. I do not eat grains and sugar except very occasionally. When during target-shooting in my back yard with an air-gun a squirrel was killed by one of guys I skinned it , gutted, made a stew just out of curiosity. I am lucky to have other options to get my meat than shooting at squirrels.Adaptation to IF was at least partially inspired by Paleo-ideas. My health got better, so something or a combination of factors worked in a right direction. What else to want?

Lesley Scott said...

"all of these recipes for paleo pizza and added fats and coconut butter and almond flour pancakes and whatnot ..."

I keep thinking when I see this sort of thing that they're really missing the boat in terms of food reward. Now I'm just talking diet & weight loss here, but as Stephan G. has explained, it's food reward that keeps getting all this stuff into our/their mouths, leading to so much overeating amongst the LC-turned-faux'aleo crowd. They make these huge elaborate feasts, like the keto-egg & calorie bomb, without considering that replicating other high-reward foods such as pizza, just using almond flour & unrefined coconut butter is just a prettied up version of the basic problem: food reward, food reward & more food reward. Making it "paleo" may make the list of ingredients more recognizable to people like me than what you find on a typical frozen-pizza box label, but it's still a food that makes you want to eat it in excess, a calorie-laden high-reward dish, just classier & pricier. The lipstick on a pig analogy comes to mind.

Melissa said...

SOme transcripts on
http://plantpositive.squarespace.com/
but not the citations, you have to type the paper name from the video for that. I believe that is purposeful as many of the papers do not say what he says they do. Which is a common problem for paleo writers as well.

Melissa said...

I guess its to my advantage that I find those things utterly disgusting.

Gianni said...

When Jimmy married his wife was sub 100 lbs. So his weight problems clearly caused her's and almost doubling one's weight counts.

Might be true and probably is, at least partially.
But to be fair I'd point out the fact that, I don't have any idea about how old she was then nor what age she is now, I doubt she got younger since getting married.

How many are at 45 exactly at the same weight they were at age 23-25?
15%? Some gain little, some gain more, some gradually, some explode in the matter of time of 2-3 years.
Even among singles.
Those are no secrets.

Charles Grashow said...

Think Jimmy will change his diet

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/atlcx-episode-24-all-things-protein-protein-101-dr-donald-layman/15359

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=DK+Layman&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C31

LeonRover said...

I just listened to this: Laymon was good.

Will Jimmy lower his butter/cream/coco-fat/lard/dripping ???

Highly doubtful. Ah well . . . . .

Slainte

Unknown said...

Why did he kill a squirrel in your backyard, was it attacking him?

bentleyj74 said...

I wear the same size pants now that I did in high school and the same size as my teenage daughter. I'm not 45 but not miles from it either. Gaining half or more of your previous total body weight indicates to me that something is up aside from the passage of time.

Gianni said...

I wear the same size pants now that I did in high school...
Good for you, I suppose.
Still doesn't make it the norm.

Gaining half or more of your previous total body weight indicates to me that something is up aside from the passage of time.
For that matter, I'd argue that even when gaining "only" 25 pounds "something is up".
I apologise for my english, but I thought my premise was clear: I'd bet Carbsane is right.


But even more since the general correlation between age and weight stats is pretty obvious, I was stating that I strongly doubt writing "When Jimmy married his wife was sub 100 lbs. So his weight problems clearly caused her's..." is formally solid. Probably not even barely.
Plenty of women go from 50kg to 80kg, and for what I know JM is neither a mormon nor a muslim.


bentleyj74 said...

The question Gianni is, does it make me ABNORMAL? Have I got parasitic worms? Thyroid probs? If not and I'm healthy then there is a disparity between what's USUAL and what's NORMAL.

Outside of pathology, why do people gain weight? Why do people do anything? Our peers and environment and close relationships influence our outcomes tremendously. I agree that something is up with "only" 25 pounds [assuming the previous weight was healthy and the gain is fat mass] but when 50 or 60 is more than half your total previous weight it is a VERY significant gain. To make any sort of claim that this individual hasn't got a weight issue is...odd to say the least...but it's coming from a man with an ED.

Does anyone think her weight would be the same if she were married to Mark Sisson?

Galina L. said...

Actually, it was by the exigent. People who tried to aim into squirrels missed, one who wanted to scare the animal away killed it.Gave me a perspective about easiness of hunting small animals. On one hand I like to watch how squirrels jump in the forest in my back-yard, on another hand, it is a pain to watch how they damage my garden. I stopped growing tomatoes, peaches are a lost cause. First time in years they almost completely ruined the crop of pomegranates making just a small hole on the side of each fruit.It gets worse and worse. I bought a devise to scare them away, about to try it. Only citruses are safe so far.

lian johnston said...

He makes no secret that his vegan. But you can't dismiss the videos that easily. That would be like dismissing all meat/fat eating paleo bloggers because they have an obvious bias in promoting meat and fat consumption. To be honest his videos start of pretty weak but all in all they do contain a different perspective that will definitely make you think.

screennamerequired said...

And although I have fear of saturated fat per se. I tend not to think of it as some kind of essential health food that should be gorged on by everyone. Lyle mcdonald says both the "more saturated fat is better" and the "saturated fat is artery clogging poison" people are both stupid, and that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle given context.

Charles Grashow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Charles Grashow said...

http://www.jacn.org/content/28/4_Supplement_1/500S.full#sec-4

The Okinawan Diet: Health Implications of a Low-Calorie, Nutrient-Dense, Antioxidant-Rich Dietary Pattern Low in Glycemic Load

"Residents of Okinawa, the southernmost prefecture of Japan, are known for their long average life expectancy, high numbers of centenarians, and accompanying low risk of age-associated diseases. Much of the longevity advantage in Okinawa is thought to be related to a healthy lifestyle, particularly the traditional diet, which is low in calories yet nutritionally dense, especially with regard to phytonutrients in the form of antioxidants and flavonoids. Research suggests that diets associated with a reduced risk of chronic diseases are similar to the traditional Okinawan diet, that is, vegetable and fruit heavy (therefore phytonutrient and antioxidant rich) but reduced in meat, refined grains, saturated fat, sugar, salt, and full-fat dairy products."

"Although it is well known that the Japanese are the world's longest-lived people, less well known is that there is a Northeast-to-Southwest gradient in longevity, whereby the longest lived of the Japanese are those that inhabit the southernmost islands, known as the Ryukyu Islands (or Okinawa prefecture). Also known as the 47th prefecture of Japan, the citizens of Okinawa have the longest life expectancy within Japan (and likely the world), mainly because they avoid or delay major age-associated diseases such as cancer, heart disease, stroke, and diabetes."

"nsight into what constitutes the traditional Okinawan diet can be gained by examining the contents and cooking style of a traditional Okinawan meal. This would typically begin with Okinawan-style miso soup (water, miso paste, seaweed, tofu, sweet potato, and/or green leafy vegetables). The staple carbohydrate is the sweet potato (not rice, as in the Japanese diet). The main dish is a stir-fried vegetable dish (called champuru), which includes such vegetables as bitter melon (goya), accompanied by a side dish, such as konbu seaweed and konnyaku. This is typically simmered with a hint of oil, bonito dashi broth (for flavor), and small amounts of fish or boiled pork. Cooking styles center around vegetables and tofu. Smaller servings of fish, noodles, or lean meats with herbs, spices, and a little cooking oil may accompany these staples. Nbushi style uses water rich vegetables such as daikon (radish), Chinese okra, and pumpkin; seasons them with miso; and simmers them in their own juices. Irichi style uses a combination of simmering and stir-frying with less watery vegetables such as burdock, seaweed, dried daikon, or green papaya. The meal would be served with freshly brewed sanpin (jasmine) tea, occasionally followed with a small amount of locally brewed awamori (millet brandy).

As can be deduced from these descriptions of a typical meal, the traditional dietary pattern in Okinawa has the following characteristics:

1) High consumption of vegetables,

2) High consumption of legumes (mostly soy in origin),

3) Moderate consumption of fish products (especially in coastal areas),

4) Low consumption of meat and meat products,

5) Low consumption of dairy products,

6) Moderate alcohol consumption,

7) Low caloric intake,

8) Rich in omega-3 fats,

9) High monounsaturated-to-saturated-fat ratio, and

10) Emphasis on low-GI carbohydrates."


Traditional Okinawan diet food pyramid.

http://www.jacn.org/content/28/4_Supplement_1/500S/F2.expansion.html

Charles Grashow said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/business/lifesize-a-weight-loss-strategy-from-an-unlikely-pair.html?_r=1&hpw

Galina L. said...

I wonder how effective for health and longevity would be to adopt such diet for a person who is already not-thin. I think about it looking at Dr.Andrew Weill, a big proponent of an Okinavian-style diet, traveled there several times. Well, he difenetely looks overweight, as I understood from reading his book, it is a natural tendency for him. I tried such diet myself for one year 5 years ago and was very unhappy with the result because it increased carbohydrate consumption for me I guess. I became heavier and less healthy. I was not eating a SAD before , though. Diets should serve individual needs.

Charles Grashow said...

Read this about Dr Weill

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/andrew-weils-seasonal-supplements/

Dr. Weil is not a reliable source of health information. It’s unfortunate, because so much of his information is good, but he promiscuously interleaves science-based facts with belief-based opinions in such a way that laymen have no chance of distinguishing his wheat from his chaff.

He got his MD at Harvard but, instead of doing a residency, he dropped out, experimented with drugs, and went to live on an Indian reservation to study with a Sioux medicine man. Then he went on to become “the father of integrative medicine” and establish an empire. He has openly promoted “stoned thinking,” alleging that thoughts experienced while under the influence of psychedelic drugs or in altered states of consciousness are as valid as, or more valid than, scientific evidence. Arnold Relman explains all this and more in his article, “A Trip to Stonesville: Some Notes on Andrew Weil (1998),” available online and well worth reading.

Weil thinks his intuition trumps the results of clinical trials. For instance, he has seen improvement in children with ear infections after osteopathic manipulation (not surprising, since most ear infections resolve without treatment) and he continues to believe that cranial manipulation cures ear infections and to recommend that treatment to his followers even though there is no scientific evidence to support either its clinical usefulness or its fanciful underpinnings.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/weil.html

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/ART00660

Susanne said...

It's true not giving direct links to the citations is a flaw. But the critiques that I have read so far (the cholesterol denialism and high fat ones mostly) do a good job of showing how low-carb/paleo authors are taking evidence from articles out of context, including historical context. E.g. Ancel Keys' arguments and evidence developing and being refined over time, but they only cite the early articles. Also his argument doesn't rely on ad hominem attacks, which you often see from both sides. (Although he does get in a jab here and there. "Shirtless supplement salesman" ... hee hee.)

But I will mostly now love him forever for introducing me to both the Paleobiotics Lab and the concept of the Miocene Diet.

Craig in CT said...

Interesting excerpt from "New Rules of Lifting for Life":

Rule #8: You are not a rural Okinawan.

"...Here's what long-lived people tend to have in common:

* They live in temperate regions with year-round sunlight.
* They grow up in poor farming communities with very little social or economic mobility.
* They live in multigeneration households, including grandparents.
* Their daily lives include long hours of repetitive labor. Nobody truly retires.
* If they need to get somewhere, they usually walk.
* Their diets are mostly vegetarian, with a predominance of cereal grains. They don't overeat, but I don't know if that is by choice or necessity. You can't eat too much of what you don't have.
* They tend to have low-stress lives with a strong sense of community.

Some of that sounds appealing. But how does it apply to your life of mine? Can you tell your boss, "You know, I think we should shift our best practices to the rural Okinawan model"? Would you want to live with your parents or grandparents? Would they want to live with you?"

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Gianni, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding you ... maybe language barrier here. I also should have chosen my words more carefully, Jimmy's ED/weight issues have clearly contributed to Christine's. They are close in age and married 17 years so she was in her early 20's at the time. Folks gotta remember I was a regular at his forum and reading on his menus blog. In 2009 when Jimmy did Eades 6WC so did Christine and he said she didn't have a weight problem but wanted to lose some. And she lost quite a bit and they bought her a new dress for an event that still revealed a bit of a pooch. Thing is, when someone says to me that someone doesn't have weight issues, we're not talking gaining like 2/3rds of one's initial weight. I think Jimmy's dismissal of her weight gains likely elicited some of the problem. And/or just living with a man who had lost almost 200 lbs once before and goes up and down like 30 lbs is nothing.

I remember watching a YouTube vid and at the end you get that montage of other videos. I clicked on one, and it opened with a picture of Christine where she had a bigger double chin than me. So these sorts of things stick in this eidetic memory of mine.

Gianni said...

Yeah, I have no problem admitting that essentially I was splitting hairs.

I listen to some of his podcasts, though most of the time I only read the text cliffs, but I usually skip all the stuff that is even slightly personal (not my type: religion etc.).
So it could be, and probably is, that you others know almost as a fact that her wife follows devotedly his precepts.
(Even the I think Jimmy's dismissal of her weight gains likely elicited some of the problem. would mostly be something I learn about now.)

But still, thinking of 17 years (or so) and many common women, the use of the word "clearly" etc. nonetheless gave me a bit of a smile.
And it's more than plausible to me that even on the SAD (or single) she would have gained, maybe not 2/3rds, 1/2 of or her weight.

p.s. I have no idea what ED stands for.

Unknown said...

Were you at all concerned that it might come back as a Zombie Squirrel, one of the Living Dead, and eat the brains of everyone in your home?

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yeah, the "clearly" was ill chosen and reveals my bias. Because I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that this woman doesn't get to that weight (and it was more like a decade or so of marriage when she apparently hit the high weight).

ED = eating disorder. I was over mine by the time I married. My hubs' and my weights track mostly together, though this last time I lost my weight about a year before he followed suit (as usual, without trying). For us it IS habits, and it really is difficult to always have to say "no". Life is MUCH better finding workable solutions both can thrive on! For him he gains when he's inactive which occurred a few times when he wasn't working an active job. In fact with his new job it is far less physically demanding and he's going to have to do something to counter that difference or I can predict he'll gain weight (if he hasn't already ... shhh).

Anywho, I'm thinking back to when I was early 20's. I don't think I knew a single woman who weighed under 100 lbs. Of all the reunion pictures from reunions I've missed, and of all the reunions I've attended and such, there are very few with that kind of weight gain, even for those who have had several kids.

I know w/o the ED, I would not have ever gotten obese. A bit "shapely" yeah but not obese or even overweight that someone would have looked at me and thought I was "chunky" or somesuch. If I had one wish it would be to have grown up in the age of J Lo and Beyonce cuz I would have stood a fighting chance on the body image problems and likely never had them at all. I did still go through the ugly duckling phase though, but I think I would have survived that. Google Kristy McNichol and Family and put blonde hair on that girl!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Melissa if you're referring to Leslie's comment and paleo-ized foods, I agree! Unfortunately I find many of the real things not quite so bad. You can keep McD's and all of that, but a really good 10 ingredients fried rice I love. I asked Paul once for a recipe and I still can't put my finger on what they put in our favorite one that makes it different. So I either experiment or just have it once in a blue moon. Probably better to just have it once in a blue moon.

screennamerequired said...

People can say that paleo is not a low carb diet but they're really kidding themselves. It's by default considered high fat by nearly all and if you browse all the forums it's pretty obvious carbophobia is deeply ingrained. People start threads on whether they should eat a piece of damn fruit and the replies are generally "sure you can have a peice IF you can tolerate it, don't over do it and be careful with teh evil fructose though".

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I haven't scrutinized those videos much but was remarking more about some of the common sense arguments made. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between which is usually the case.

screennamerequired said...

Yeah, the Ancel keys story was another paleo just-so story that wasn't entirely correct. But once a story like that becomes part of the echo-chamber it's all of a sudden indisputable truth.
The videos aren't flawless and some of the stuff will make you roll your eyes but they're worth watching all in all.

His use of the term "low carb apologist" makes me laugh for some reason.

screennamerequired said...

I admit I kind of enjoy how Don matesz is stirring the pot just from all the angry reactions he's getting from meat eaters. The vitriol thrown his and his wifes way is kind of comical. I eat meat/dairy myself but I don't get offended by people being vegetarian like some paleos seem to. I'm not the "I eat 5 pounds of meat daily" rub-it-in-peoples-faces kind of meat eater though, I never really understood the bragging about eating lots of bacon as though it's some kind of achievement that makes you more manly or something.

Galina L. said...

Sure, some ideas of Dr.Weill quacky, not surprising for an alternative health guru. However, his attitude toward substances and cranial manipulation is hardly responsible for his Santa Claus body shape. I guess, his version of a healthy diet based on the study of Blue zones doesn't work for him like it didn't work for me. What is enough for Okinawans, not enough for everyone.

Galina L. said...

Such line of thinking is not typical for me. I am a cooking nut, in my native country squirrels are not hunted for meat, and I was curious how the meat may taste. I was squeamish about picking up a road kill, but I couldn't miss an opportunity to use that one, better than throw it away.

Galina L. said...

Don Matesz doesn't get an angry reaction from me . I am just dismissing any one who is a vegan. There are things I am not sure about and try to keep an open mind, but veganizm is not one of those.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Got me some squirrel stories! ;) I was at friends of my hubs and they were serving a big plate of teriyaki "wings". I was offered one, and they were delish. Only then did they tell me it was squirrel. I kinda think they might not have wanted to do that to many other guests. We had a good laugh and I ate a few more. Later that year hubs went squirrel hunting and he saved one tail as a souvenir. Somehow that thing got stuck in our rummage drawer (you know that drawer by the phone with all manner of crap). I would reach in that drawer to get a pen and aaaaackk. I must have thrown that thing out a dozen times -- somehow it made it back into that drawer!

Alex said...

I'm with Galina in completely dismissing vegans. I can acknowledge that some people seem to do well on vegan diets, but it's not the miracle panacea it's made out to be, and it's not a diet I'd do well on. Same goes for starches; humans are clearly adapted to eating starches, but my individual physiology doesn't handle them well.

Galina L. said...

People on my husband's job reacted on his story like they thought I was a complete freak. I don't know, may be they are right. Most guys there are only ones who cook food at home. One is a father of 8 children. Everybody in his house eats things like cereal with milk, PB sandwiches, crackers with dip, until the father comes home and cooks something. May be it is a way for the mom to have energy to deal with such big family.
Meat tasted very good. Very dark and reach tasting.I saw no fat at all even around kidneys despite the abandon amount of acorns on my two front yard oaks. Diet of my squirrels is excellent - acorns, blueberries, figs, peaches, there are insects whole year round. Bones are like made of carbon fiber.I would gladly eat more, but still not ready to compete with local vultures for a road kill or master my shooting skills. From reading I know turtles supposed to be delicious, I hope some day I will try it too.

Lerner said...

Here is Layman, another rising star on the horizon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7svkht_TP0&feature=related

At 7 minutes in, he explains that once Americans get past age 60, only a 'few' die from heart disease or cancer. Yep, according to Layman, most die from falls. Somebody call the AMA, this bitter truth is being hidden from the public in some vast conspiracy. But wait a minute, the AMA is probably the source of the conspiracy... according to modern counter-culture rebels.

Btw, the falls apparently occur because somehow low protein diets make them lose bone mass. The whole talk seems to be some pep rally for a MLM operation to sell "Metaboliq". I couldn't manage to finish listening til the end.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Falls are THE leading cause of death for old people.

ProudDaddy said...

Falls being preventable, I would like to believe they are the likely mode of my demise, but my Googling indicates that they are more like the 14th leading cause of death in the over-65 and 6th in the over-75.

No, Evelyn, I haven't missed the obvious - how do you define cause? My aunt was living an active healthy life, fell, broke her hip, and died within a year of heart failure. This, apparently, is not an uncommon experience. Was heart disease or falling the "cause" of death? Is falling only a cause of death if relatively immediate thereafter, like a major head injury?

If anyone has some good data, I'd really be interested.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yeah, should have been more specific again. I plead distraction :D In any case, I think you are getting at what I really meant. But first, worked upstairs from the county morgue for a summer. Now granted every death (especially of the elderly) does not require an autopsy, and falls being suspicious would. But the number of elderly deaths by fall alone was significant enough for me to be alarmed. (That and the number of people they pulled out of the dam/reservoir we used to go skinny dipping in, and number of murders we never heard about on the news)

That said, falls -> broken bones precipitate and or accelerate other diseases. I watched my own quite active 75 yo mother deteriorate immensely when she was virtually immobilized from a fall -- not down stairs, just a fall -- for about 2 and a half months. I'm happy to report she's back after an arduous year long knee replacement/infection/revision process, but I can only imagine what her life would be if she were not to have gone the TKR route. I honestly don't think she'd be with us today and it would probably be blamed on her heart or natural causes, but yeah, especially heart failure likely brought on by inactivity.

Lerner said...

Hey, ProudDaddy, I'd thought that I myself had fallen into the twilight zone when I saw Evelyn agreeing with Layman :) Your answer lets me know that I'm still on earth. I fact, on earth, heart disease and cancer have been in the top two causes for a long time.

CDC from 2006: http://www.cdc.gov/injury/Images/LC-Charts/10lc%20-%20By%20Age%20Group%202006-7_6_09-a.pdf

In a chart, Figure 5: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db64.pdf
In 2011, cancer becomes #1: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/health/01brod.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

"Heart disease is no longer the leading killer of Americans under age 85. Cancer is."

Offhand, I don't see a mechanism how a fall could turn a healthy heart into a failing one in a year. Regarding cancer, there is no way. Yes, there is the notion that a break can often cause a fall, instead of vice versa. But strokes can cause falls, too - along with many other causes.

I didn't come across any figures on falls leading to hospitalization, disability and then death. However, even in those over 80 or so, maybe pneumonia or cancer is number one anyway.

I posted about Layman because he's doing the same thing as almost all the wannabe stars: taking some basis in fact and stretching it beyond all belief... like "only the bun makes you fat".

I'm sure that would also hold in is claim about protein and bone loss.

P.S. The term 'congestive heart failure' has been mostly dropped, since the edema etc is no longer seen as an inevitable feature, in large part because of getting patients to exercise.

Lerner said...

Leading causes of heart failure: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/hf/causes.html

"The most common causes of heart failure are coronary heart disease (CHD), high blood pressure, and diabetes" IOW: muscle loss from ischemia, hypertropic cardiomyopathy, and microangiopathy

I think that Layman is preying precisely on the fact that a lot of people do know someone who fell and then went downhill and died. Note that inactivity is not a common cause of heart failure.

Lerner said...

A fat embolism from a fall is likely rare. VTEs would factor in somewhere, but you'd have to separate those from any post-fall orthopedic surgery.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

@Lerner, I didn't watch Layman ... otherwise occupied, so I was just responding to falls as cause of death. No doubt he's exaggerating, and yeah, I should have chosen my words better. The ultimate cause of death is almost always something else, and that cause may have been the same, just delayed down the line a bit. But bone/immunity/desire to eat/gut health/immunity/circulation/muscle tone/insulin sensitivity/etc.etc.etc. are all intertwined. It is frightening really, how fast an immobilizing fall can lead to deterioration in an older person.

He's probably playing on those who know someone ...

Is there data on age of death with onset of diagnosis vs. fall incidence? I doubt it as that would be very difficult to collect.

LeonRover said...

This "layman" was intrigued enough by Layman to click on Charles Grashow's "google scholar" link, and further find out the basis of Layman's protein recommendations. (Thanks, Charles.)

I understand his leucine/BCAA mechanism and how his 3 equal protein meals per day might work. In particular, he suggests that this protocol might be used by the "older person" to provide a dietary protection against age related sarcopenia. (If you lose it, you can't use it.)

I have, in general, a resistance to "protein shakes", but having examined the composition of Qinava's product, I found it easy to replicate by using raw eggs, cottage cheese and apple in my blender. (Irish milk, y'know, from which KerryGold is sourced.)

I was quite pleased that my 35 gm protein etc. shake resulted in morning long warm hands. I guess that I was experiencing protein digestion thermogenesis.

As regards "elderly falls", my mother, aged 81, who had lost much muscle, had a fall, was hospitalised with a hip break, and died there within 2 days, probably from shock.

Slainte

rodeo said...

Only about 50% of the protein from raw eggs are absorbed, I would suggest warming them in some manner, at least the egg white.

And sorry to hear about your mother.

Evenepoel et al. Digestibility of Cooked and Raw Egg Protein in Humans as Assessed by Stable Isotope Techniques. J. Nutr. 128 (10): 1716.

Evenepoel et al. Amount and fate of egg protein escaping assimilation in the small intestine of humans. Am J Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol 277 (5): 935.

LeonRover said...

Thanks Rodeo

Those refs were quite explicit: 50% vs 90%.
I will experiment with microwave just to get whites "white".
Everything is blended anyway - using milk as liquid.

Thank you as regards Mother, however, it was over 20 years ago.

Slainte

paleotwopointoh said...

Gee, nothing about insect consumption, which is a traditional component of Japanese diet historically.

Lerner said...

Leon, I probably would agree with most of the basic premises. What I object to are the usual mis-characterizations and hype. You might be aware of the leucine craze that lasted over a year and is finally ending.

No one is likely to make a big splash famewise or to sell their products by merely repeating the tried and true. http://buymetaboliq.com/ has "Burn Packs" selling for $260 - that probably makes even Grok shakes look inexpensive. If you made your own copy of that then I think that's great -- but I still don't believe in magic formulas. Once upon a time a fortune was made by the Met-Rx guy... It never ends.

I have been especially interested as of late in the need to consume protein to replace that which was glycated/oxidized/nitrosated -- as part of fountain-of-youth types of approaches. My personal theory is that exercise 'breaks' those proteins so weakened, and so protein after exercise is ideal.

Also, Muscle Protein Synthesis increases merely from eating protein - but not so much as PWO and I expect that effect wanes.

wrt "I was quite pleased that my 35 gm protein etc. shake resulted in morning long warm hands. I guess that I was experiencing protein digestion thermogenesis." Have you looked into postprandial vasodilation instead?

Lerner said...

rodeo reminds us of the eternal dichotomy between cooking food and thereby increasing absorption (meat or broccoli or whatever) but also destroying some molecules -- or OTOH having raw food with less absorption of some things, more of others but also more risk.

I've had as many as 10 raw eggs in a morning. They're also very refreshing on a hot day. But usually as a middle-road thing I just lightly cook them. Some go overboard and insist that even stirring eggs too much ruins something.

We usually think of raw foodists as being at the vegetarian end of the spectrum. But there are also raw meat eaters - even those who have 'high' meat. I've tried raw hamburg, raw chicken and raw chicken liver - but a news story of a woman who ended up with a live parasite in her brain made me stop doing that :) ...no matter how unlikely, it's not worth the risk. When I was twenty, I would have been too much of a weenie to even try any of those.

Lerner said...

"Dr Weill... looks overweight"

he's also quite the gourmand - being a food lover is a good way to get fat -- except not for Gordon Ramsey or Lydia's son.

rodeo said...

I understand eating the yolk raw but the egg white is very poor in nutritional value besides protein. Why waste protein and gain nothing (besides smelly farts)?

Beth@WeightMaven said...

Chris Masterjohn (who really needs a Mat Lalonde-like Kraken nickname) says that there's not a lot of benefit from consuming egg yolks raw and that egg whites especially should be cooked if consumed:

-----
Raw egg whites should not be consumed. They contain inhibitors of the digestive enzyme trypsin, which are destroyed by heat. Consuming 100 grams of raw egg white with one egg yolk compared to consuming the same food cooked was shown in one study to reduce protein digestion from 90 percent down to 50 percent.

Raw egg whites also contain an anti-nutrient called avidin. Avidin is a glycoprotein that binds to the B vitamin biotin, preventing its absorption. Biotin is necessary for fatty acid synthesis and the maintenance of blood sugar, and is especially important during pregnancy when biotin status declines.
-----

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Egg_Yolk.html

screennamerequired said...

He mentions you as an "excellent low carb blogger" in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4u-5Tb8WHk&feature=relmfu

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Aww shucks! I sure did keep myself busy ;-)

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