las

Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Tuesday, December 18, 2012

It's official. Jimmy Moore & Co. aren't interested in solving metabolic mysteries after all

UPDATE 9/14/13:  I am in the process of deciding exactly how to deal with one Dr. William L. Wilson, discoverer of the imaginary CARB Syndrome.    This appears to have been the only post of mine he links to in his unsolicited diagnosis of yours truly with this made up mental illness.   Further he offered treatment in the the form of his Carb-22 supplement.  

My purpose for this update is that some have -- rightfully, IMO -- taken him to task for making this bizarre diagnosis on the internet, of someone he has not only not met in person, but apparently knows very little accurate information about based on skimming a few blog posts.  After the fact he emailed me a link to the post, and posted one on another post on this blog.  He is busy answering many challenges to his post on his FB page at the moment.  

Rather than re-evaluate the prudence of his actions, he seems to be digging a hole.  One way he is doing that is claiming I am some public figure and it's fair game for everyone to diagnose me ... oh, and because in this post I essentially did the same thing with Jimmy Moore.  Now, this would not justify his actions, especially since as a licensed and practicing physician he is clearly subject to laws that I, a mere blogger, am not.   But let's clear a few things up anyway.

In his post he wrote:  
You might wonder how can I possibly diagnose someone with a disease who I have never personally met? Yes, to some extent I am speculating, but in medicine we often speculate about possible diseases in patients we have never seen when discussing cases with our colleagues in “curb side” consults. CarbSane even does this herself when she speculates that Jimmy Moore has Klinefelter’s syndrome and she doesn’t even have an MD behind her name. Over the years I have successfully treated thousands of patients who fit the CARB syndrome pattern and in my opinion CarbSane clearly falls into this category. After 35 years of clinical experience, my diagnostic skills are very sharp.
On FB he's written:
Out in the world physicians and every Tom, Dick and Harry speculate what might be wrong with public figures like CarbSane. Physicians do this all the time on TV and in the media. Even CarbSane does this when she speculates whether Jimmy Moore has a genetic condition.
You call my analysis of CarbSane “mean spirited”, yet she suggests that Jimmy Moore has Kleinfelter’s syndrome. Perhaps she was trying to give Jimmy information that would help him but I doubt it. Klinefelter’s syndrome is a genetic disorder you really can’t treat. If CarbSane really does have CARB syndrome, it is a reversible disorder that is quite easy to treat. If she doesn’t want to deal with it, that’s her choice and it’s fine with me. If she is interested in checking out, I have information that might be helpful to her.
There are more, perhaps I edit them in, perhaps not.  In any case, I can see how he thought that ... my wording is not always crystal clear, this is a blog after all, and I don't proof, edit and consolidate nearly as much as I would like to if I had infinite time.  But as it turns out, I did not.  Here are the exact words:

It has come up in comments here of late that Jimmy might have Klinefelter's syndrome which is one cause of hypogonadism.
Klinefelter's was raised by someone in comments  here (no I do not have the time nor desire to track a link down).  I also recall that I said at least once that I do not believe this to be the case.  A chromosomal condition like that is usually diagnosed early on.   However, there are many other causes of hypogonadism and he displays enough symptoms that if he were getting proper comprehensive care, this would at least have been addressed.    So let's be clear, I did *speculate* that this may be an issue for him, I did not diagnose him.

I did not wish to get Regina any more sneers aimed at her at the time so I didn't quote her post I linked to, but I will now.   Not to bring her any belated headaches, but because folks like Wilson are apparently too lazy to click through links and read the content that has stirred me to write what I do here.  I don't write this blog in a vacuum.  In this post, Regina wrote:
Since it is the endocrine system which largely controls our weight and hunger, it needs to function well for weight loss and maintenance. Yet, there are some endocrine issues which a diet alone cannot resolve - they are genetic - and Jimmy has, we've learned through his posts, hypogonadism.
Simply understood, that's where you, if male, have low testosterone, elevated LH and/or FSH, and often it leads to high serum ferritin (iron).

Jimmy has shared with readers that he has this condition - and it's something, that after reading up on it last night, one cannot change with diet alone. Now this isn't an excuse - but a reason that helps explain why Jimmy's appetite is such that he's driven to eat more than he requires. Those with hypogonadism are often insulin resistant, suffer abdominal obesity and gain weight easily.
Frankly, Regina stated this in far more definitive terms than I would have chosen.     Does he have hypogonadism?  I do not know.  But the point of the title of this post is that on some level, apparently, he does not care.   He is seemingly in a constant search for answers with blinders and very deep shades on in a darkened room.  He does not want to see.   For the time being the NuttyK was working for weight loss -- nevermind the worsening lipids, the stubborn UTI he had early on, the protein and crystals in his urine or anything else.  Mr. Healthy LC Diet was losing weight again.   

She also wrote:  
If nothing else, Jimmy is a prolific blogger - he's got websites, podcasts, YouTube videos, a forum, twitter and facebook - and this leaves us with a lot of information to ponder about his weight maintenance, gains and losses.
Yes he is.  And for those that don't know, I have a freakish memory and I remember a lot.  Especially numbers, images, dates, phrases, etc.etc.etc.  I see, hear and write a lot.  This reinforces it.  This may come off as obsession when it is not.  Jimmy used to blog daily about what he ate along with notes.  Routinely discuss struggles and ask for advice.  As he became more dogmatic and those offering advice kept giving him advice he didn't want to hear, he got mighty testy at times.  I vividly recall him asking for thoughts on a topic and when someone responded with their thoughts they were rudely shot down with a "nobody asked you".   I used to be one of those people who tried to help him.   Others remember me.  I remember them.  Eventually, Jimmy just started censoring any "advice" he didn't like ... and the pot shot posts at his "nasty" critics started insinuating all manner of bad behavior.  NEVER. HAPPENED.   

Regina, one last time (in response to Jimmy's comment in a post to which she was responding to:  "Was it the keto-adaptation or the calorie-cutting that has worked in producing the weight loss success I’ve seen? If you ask me, I say WHO CARES?!"):
Well, I care - not only about Jimmy as a person and friend, but also for those within the low-carb community, who despite doing everything seemingly right, fail to lose weight or gain and will do anything - even something extreme - to lose the weight.
So then, what has been going on?

What context might explain Jimmy's weight gains and losses?

And more importantly, why are those important considerations for anyone ready to jump on board the nutritional ketosis bandwagon and do what Jimmy's doing?
When Jimmy embarked on this extreme nutritional ketosis experiment seemingly everyone jumped on board.  I know not everyone, but enough.  Even a 100 lb perfectly healthy woman did.  Thankfully she had the common sense to stop before she harmed herself.   Three years ago now Jimmy went on an eggfast.  The following year on his lead a woman engaged in one.  Face went tingly, passed out.  Stuff like that.  I have highlighted here how SO many are stuck or weigh more than they ever did.   How so many see their insulin sensitivity worsen, their body composition and fat distribution change unfavorably.  For crying out loud one low carber had to cut her hair because too much was falling out  -- and still she advocates for the "healthy" diet.  There's more at stake than just money, but wasting money is enough of a bad thing, no?

I do NOT mock their looks or weight.  I do NOT attack them personally.  I DO think it is pertinent information that an advocate for a diet be honest in their delivery.  If a diet is not working for you, you really have a lot of nerve promoting it to anyone.  Period.  That Jimmy Moore is too mired in dogma to alter his diet ... Well, many have tried.  I may not have the friends Regina has in the LC community, but I do not want to see people potentially harm their health taking advice from charlatans ... even if many of those people don't particularly like me.

I provide my readers with the science here.  I'll occasionally share *my opinion* and clearly state it as such for people to consider as they see fit.   I think that on the whole Cholesterol Clarity will do far more harm than good and that it deserved at least one honest appraisal on its merits.   Jimmy Moore can't even be honest with himself any more what is going on with his health and it is evident throughout the book and the quotes he chose so selectively to entwine with his biased narrative.  






Original Publish Date:  12/18/12

I would like to give props and offer my support, though she probably doesn't really want it, to Regina Wilshire of Weight of the Evidence blog.  By the time I had found the LC community in 2009, her blogging had apparently tapered off and I had not really come across much bearing her name other than the occasional picture.  Oh ... and the post on Jimmy's now defunct and deleted menus blog identifying her as a "heavy low carber".  It was that post that caused me to mention her in a post of my own (2011) addressing the topic, hence due to Jimmy's inclusion of her in his post, her name got included in mine.   I also named a few of her low carbing friends, and the rest, as they say, is history.  I hope in retrospect, some of these folks are able to see that I meant no harm or ill will in merely highlighting what I did.  It's pretty obvious, to everyone except the low carbers it seems, that on the whole advocates of the lifestyle are more overweight or obese than advocates of other lifestyles.

Long before I started blogging, I questioned some of the theories about calories and how low carb diets work.  If you hit a stall on LC and asked for advice circa 2009-10, you were likely advised that you weren't eating enough fat and/or calories.  "Up the fat".  Unless that is accompanied by further restriction of carbohydrate and/or the new demon-macro, protein, that advice is bound to fail, as most did.   Sometimes a person would come on LLVLC, still considerably overweight, and list their menus, and wonder why they weren't losing weight.  I would often counter the "up the fat" brigade and encourage the person to assess their caloric intake and adopt strategies to reduce it.  And predictably I'd be shouted down about how I don't understand, etc.etc.etc.  Look ... if you are eating a "clean" low carb diet and not losing weight, adding sticks of butter to the two broccoli florettes and eating even more bacon is not going to solve your problem.

For about 2-1/2 years I subscribed to Jimmy's menus blog in my reader.  Anyone who even checked in on that blog from time to time knows how this man was always switching something up in his low carb diet.  I remember the first few days/weeks of menus I read included a lunch of two- 8 oz burgers with mayo, cheese and a side salad drenched in ranch and usually some dessert.  I did not know at the time he was struggling with regain -- this was not immediately available information.  By that, I mean he didn't hide it, but Jimmy knows well that folks who participate on his forum don't necessarily follow his blog, and the then menus blog followers don't necessarily listen to the podcasts, and most podcast listeners have probably never even clicked on his blog.  I was astounded at the amount of food he could eat and maintain his weight -- as the "About" on that menus blog claimed right on up to its closing in 2011.  

I've stated many times, and I believe this more strongly now than ever, that Jimmy Moore has squandered more goodwill in the community than just about anyone I can think of.  So much so, I think it is only the super fluid nature of relationships of such a community, coupled with the superficiality of internet relationships and his established presence, that allows him to even have a following at all.  The few close friends are apparently too close to see it.  With every bandwagon diet he jumped on, others followed.  Jimmy is losing weight!!    To which I would say, "So??"   It is nothing new for Jimmy to lose weight.  To lose it fast.  And to gain it back just as, if not more, rapidly.  But through it all, he would report the menus.  From time to time he reported calories, but since he only ever estimated portions, this information was sketchy at best.  His eggfest was successful because eggs and butter are fairly easy to portion and such, and he was eating as little as 1200 cals some days, and well under 2000 most days.  I've said it a thousand times -- Jimmy doesn't have a broken metabolism.  When he eats less he loses weight, when he eats more he gains.  It is no mystery.  I don't care if that keto-egg dish is only a once a day thing.  Most of the women populating Jimmy's forum would gain weight eating like that.  There's one woman I recall from my days there who has finally broken through a years long weight plateau to lose about 60 lbs.  How?  Well, by going VLC and ... eating 1000 cals/day.   

Now looking back, it was in 2008 when Jimmy began his search for the "mysterious condition" that was causing his body to accumulate fat again, or for weight to be "coming onto his body".  He went to Dr. Westman, he took Metformin.  Readers encouraged him to go sweet free.  He tried it.  And you know what?  Between that challenge and some calorie counting and portion control, he was back in the 230's in January of 2009.  Every time he claims that his problems began in late 2007 with the rapid mysterious 25-35 lb gain he attributes to creatine, and that he was never able to shake those pounds, he is lying.  L.y.i.n.g.   And his presentation to the LCDU crowd in Australia, was utterly disingenuous as he portrayed his weight struggles as a few, couple, five kilos at a time creeping back on.  That is NOT how it happened.  And Regina pointed that out in her first post addressing Jimmy's blaming protein for his regains.  And she states it more pointedly in her latest post:  The Calorie Talk Taboo.  

As I read the first parts of that, I started having flashbacks to participating at Jimmy's forum and the shout downs of any mention of calories.  What's somewhat funny is that from time to time people would drag out the "calories count but we don't have to count them" meme.  There's definitely a kneejerk pushback to mention of calories -- No!  I did/do NOT eat too much!  How dare you call me a glutton!!   But as she points out -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this -- Jimmy Moore does eat a ton of food.  I contend that he eats for reasons other than appetite that are being ignored, but let's presume he eats so much because he has an insatiable appetite.  It would appear that for him (for now) this nuttyK is working to suppress that appetite.  He eats only every 12 to 24 hours.  But Regina raised the hormonal context of it all -- just not insulin.

It has come up in comments here of late that Jimmy might have Klinefelter's syndrome which is one cause of hypogonadism.  Regina discusses this in her blog post.  If one searches on either in Google images, there are pictures that could almost be Jimmy.  As commenters have pointed out here, and Regina states, both the obvious features and the other health issues such as low testosterone and infertility and such point pretty strongly at this being the situation.  If I were him, I would stop wasting money testing ketones and whatnot and either get tested and/or comprehensively treated for the hypogonadism you so clearly epitomize.  How many times has Jimmy assured his audience that he would leave no stone unturned in his quest?  Here's a search on hypogonadism and hyperlipidemia.  Maybe there's a connection?

Now, in addition to the several comments here, I also received a few emails urging me to blog on this issue.  Frankly, I imagine this condition is a bit uncomfortable to deal with, and since Jimmy sees me as a hater, I didn't see how my "going there" would be seen as anything but mean-spirited.  However Regina is a friend of Jimmy's ... and she "went there".  And he read it.  And he linked to it on Facebook and I believe elsewhere.  Here's the Facebook response:
Jimmy Moore · 5,097 like thisSaturday at 8:09am · 
‎"The Calorie Talk Taboo" from the "Weight Of The Evidence" blog:http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-calorie-talk-taboo.html ~ My low-carb blogging friend Regina Wilshire continues her pontificating about my nutritional ketosis n=1 experiment. It's good to see her blogging regularly again and I do appreciate her thoughts about my situation. However, I want to clarify a few things: I'm NOT taking testosterone anymore (haven't since March), I'm NOT actively cutting calories as part of my NK plan (although it's undoubtedly happening spontaneously in response to the satiety I've received from attaining proper ketone levels), I'm NOT eating lots of food and I'm NOT taking the berberine supplement right now (haven't since early November--so far so good on blood sugar control without it). Interesting theory about why I desire eating large meals that goes beyond being a glutton. Many of the comments at the end of this blog post are good for a laugh or two for their absurdity. I love all the assumptions that are made about me without anyone ever attempting to substantiate them as truth or not. You gotta love the Internet!
So, we learn that he's apparently no longer under the care of that internationally renowned physician who prescribed the testosterone ... or he's no longer taking the testosterone anyway.  I can imagine he stopped in March because he was only gaining more weight eating his lacto-paleo diet with testosterone.  But I can not imagine any doctor treating this man in a comprehensive fashion overlooking the obvious.  So what exactly do all of these low carb doctors who have interacted with Jimmy think/say/do?  The list is endless.  From Eades to Eenfeldt to Briffa to Wortman (fertility guy) to Rosedale to Vernon to Davis to Westman to Kruse to Phinney to .... Medical doctor after medical doctor after medical doctor ... and in all these years not a one ever thought, ya know what?  Perhaps it's hypogonadism!  Really???   With my photographic memory, general inquisitiveness, and academic exposure (albeit not med school), I'm actually a bit embarrassed to admit that I never saw it.  (Yes, I saw characteristics, didn't connect the dots).  

But I post the FB comment because, you see, for now Jimmy will refer to Regina as "friend", but it's only a matter of time before the bus comes along for her.  You see, she's "pontificating" -- and, yes, she got some facts in the timeline wrong.  I think Regina is trying to do her part to turn around this Jimmy = LC = Jimmy trend before it is too late.  I think it is too late.  When the USS LC-Titanic sinks, hopefully it is clearer minds like hers emerging from the lifeboats to put forth a rational case for LC when it is warranted.  Unfortunately this may involve cutting friendly ties, as the NMS folks are not likely to extend a hand off that lifeboat.  

Now I've seen some older pics of Jimmy but they aren't too helpful regarding his current physical features.  Where I'm going there is that I wonder if long term LC has exacerbated his low testosterone endocrinology/physiology.  Only he knows the answer, but he needs to be asking himself and his doctors the question.  Since he left a full time job with benefits, he's a cautionary example of patient-led a la carte medical care fueled by the rebel-without-a-clue mindset so prevalent in this community.  What his labs and all indicated in 2005-6 vs. today, is that Jimmy Moore is NOT healthy at any size.  He is clearly one of those people who needs to weigh less -- I'd say less than 200 lbs given his unequal fat distribution pattern -- to be metabolically healthy.  He was close at 230-ish pounds.  What his more recent labs tell us is that this man's health is not improving on all fronts.  The higher in fat and lower in carbs he goes, the he resembles a man with familial hypercholesterolemia.  Sure he's seeing some improvements in hemorrhoids and skin tags and your basic all around feel goodishness that comes with not lugging around 50-60 extra pounds -- not to mention the stress his weight issues have put on him due to his livelihood being so tightly tied to his weight.

So is it all about the weight loss then?  Ain't that a 180, eh?  He's back to doing what he needs to do to lose weight, however extreme, and damn the nightmarish LDL-P!! Well, I hope for his sake that this takes him down to a weight he needs to be at  and this normalizes his metabolic profile.  So far, not so good in that regard.  But here's a couple of other things that stuck out at me.

1.  The first comment on that FB page:  
Sonya Michelle Jones Jimmy, I just can't bear to even go to that woman's site. She is bitter, uninformed and jealous of your success. It's too flinch inducing to try to read anything she writes.
That could have been written about me.  Indeed that and worse have been.  Wake up Sonya!  Do you really believe Regina is bitter and jealous?  Really??   Where do you get that in her writings?  

2.

Adam Kosloff If Regina and other CICO people really believe what they're saying, let them go on an all-Mountain Dew diet matching the calories they consume now precisely to calories of pure sucrose. They can even track things like you've done with your NK experiment. Track how they look, feel, weigh for 120 days+ on a pure isocaloric liquid sucrose diet. If she and others are so convinced that a calorie is a calorie, then PROVE IT. Otherwise ZIP IT!
Like · Reply · 
 · Saturday at 1:53pm

Oh my!  Our good buddy Gatewing with his slimataki pool noodles has weighed in!  I left a comment, we'll see if Jimmy leaves it up!  The comment points out that Adam Kosloff of Caloriegate and formerly How Low Carb Diets Work "fame" actually wrote a post on hypogonadism.  Now isn't that a funny coincidence?!  Does Kosloff remember that and urge Jimmy not to brush off Regina's "interesting theory" about why he eats so much?  No.  He takes pot shots at the "calorie wizards" with yet another ridiculous experiment to prove what has already been shown in metabolic wards.   ZIP IT?  Wow, does Adele Hite know her Outreach Chair is such an asshat?   I'm still waiting for the apology and explanation for his bashing me on his last podcast with Jimmy.  Give me a break.  And for the record, no, it is not those who believe in CICO who need to prove anything, the onus is on you to explain why getting fat is just like growing my hair or a horizontal growth disorder just like gigantism is a vertical growth disorder ... or whatever other magic beans and fairy dust you're passing off as science these days.

There's some good coming of all of this.  It seems that increasing numbers are able to air their disenchantment with Jimmy free from the stranglehold censorship he wields on his site.  More and more, low carbers are coming around to acknowledging calories.  You see bloggers and such actually advising folks to assess intake and .... eat less!  The sad part is that after long stretches of adherence to LC, that "less" is a whole lot less than what one considered "starvation" back in their LF days.  I've seen a 250ish pound woman break a years long weight stall to lose 60 lbs by eating 1000 and even under that a day and doing her BBS for 30 seconds a week (yes that's exaggerated for effect).  What awaits her a year from now?  Then there's the case of a 5'8" 185 lb man who can only eat 1400 cal/day or he'll gain.  These may seem like outliers but I've seen it many many times.  Jimmy is taking up collections to have tests run.  Perhaps we should have one taken up to commission an evaluation of his metabolic rate.  It would be interesting to compare it to 7 years ago.  

But the bottom line here is that Jimmy isn't really interested in getting to the bottom of anything.  If he were, he'd respond differently to posts like Regina's.  And he's not making any new friends or even keeping old ones by lashing out at those who follow him and dare to comment!  I mean he posts updates, tweets, FB, etc.etc.  Encourages others to prick and grease up, etc.  But if anyone follows too closely, and God forbid they criticize, then "what's it to them", they shouldn't care, they are just being mean and whatnot.  Bull and sheet.  You can't have it both ways Jimmy.

69 comments:

AL-209 said...

I am bored of hearing about Jimmy Moore Eve. Im really not interested in how wrong he is, ive always been more interested in how right you are. Now im beginning to not be interested at all, which is a shame. Your blog, just sayin'.....

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Sorry ;-) Skip on over these posts please. There's lots of other "meat" here. But this stuff has to be said because so long as Jimmy remains the face of low carb (and tries to be a face of paleo and now WAPF/real foods/primal) and influential in the case of his podcasts, folks need to know who they're dealing with. If they decide to listen/follow anyway? Well, then that's just a testament to how dysfunctional it all has become.

AL-209 said...

I understand Eve. And i think you are 100% right. I just MUCH prefer your sciencey posts. Its what you are best at imo...although you are a dab hand at shooting down low carb charlatans it has to be said...:)

AL-209 said...

They must hate your guts eh? and their own....lol

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I'm glad to see folks like Regina speak out. It's high time more do! Judging from the comments on her blog she'll be getting flack for "turning" on Jimmy. There are a lot of people who seem to care deeply that LC be taken seriously by the mainstream as it could potentially help many. I wish these people realized how much this circus side show is damaging that effort.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

BTW, this post was prompted in part by reading this: http://paleo.com.au/2012/12/the-truth-about-jimmy-moore/


Firstly, Jimmy has lost a lot of weight. He is far slimmer than his pre-Australia blog photos implied. A lot of people on the internet seem to criticise Jimmy, because he lost and then regained weight. But the thing is, Jimmy has always been honest about it. I have a lot of respect for someone who is able to put their hands up, say it isn’t working – and try a new approach.

Anything except eating some carbs and not dousing everything in fat or addressing endocrine issues on more than a fleeting basis. Oh ... and he lied to the audience about his weight history. Period.

Jimmy’s new approach, Nutritional Ketosis is working. Really working. He gave some very honest lectures, sharing exactly what he is doing, how it is working and how he feels. He even took his blood readings on stage.

Oh my! He even pricked his fingers on stage!! So?

I find it really refreshing and inspiring to hear an honest account of weight loss – what works and what doesn’t.

I do too. Which is why his yo yo and regains matter.

It was also an absolute pleasure to meet Christine, Jimmy’s wife, who is clearly extremely supportive of everything Jimmy does. If there is any dirt on Jimmy Moore, I’m sure Christine will be the one to dish it!

Yeah, Christine is likely to dish dirt that might be damaging to Jimmy's business. Ha!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I'm shocked!! She published my comment!!

river rance said...

Jimmy Moore's future will be some form of bariatric surgery(I've said it before). That will start a whole new round of commerce from podcasts to blogs to "hugs" for those that have struggled their whole lives like Jimmy and had to resort to the last resort. And as a "layperson" from a science point of view, help me here Evelyn; isn't surgery to reduce one's capacity for food intake the ultimate expression of CICO? Only with possible serious consequences? But it is definitely where he is headed.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I agree with you. Unless he gives up the LLVLC gig and goes to work for someone else behind the scenes. Personally I think this is what he should do, it's what I would encourage my own husband to do were I Christine. It probably doesn't help to have the short-term gratification of having your trip to Australia paid for, three weeks of meet-and-greets with fans wanting to meet you, looking much thinner than you did last time some of these people saw you, etc. Jimmy is a master of the aw shucks good guy Southern charm. It's heady stuff to pile on top of the usual compliments and adulation one receives when they are losing weight. But if he worked for someone else, the pressure would be off, he's very good at marketing and all that, he could work for someone who's dietary message he supports and I'm sure they would be happy to have him on their team. How much longer can a 40 year old man ply off of mediocrity?

Yes WLS works by reducing intake. Early on it is quite impossible to even "eat" let alone overeat. You get sick. As time wears on, the digestive system adapts. The pouch stretches, gastric emptying seems to figure out the timing again and all that. Then you learn to eat around the surgery. WLS would buy Jimmy 5-10 more years.

Diana said...

I seriously doubt that Jimmy has Klinefelter's. I'm not an expert but this is something I know about from genetics reading. I became quite interested in this particular issue.

From photographs I've seen of him, he has normal male beard growth. I think I saw a photo of him once in a tank top and he had chest hair. The vast majority of KF men have problems raising a normal beard and would be unlikely to have chest hair.

Height: They are also usually a couple inches taller than the norm for males in their family. I think that Jimmy comes from a tall, Anglo-Saxon background where being 6'3" is no exception.

Hips: Classic KFs have feminine hip formation.

Leg length: Classic KF's have feminine leg to trunk ratio (that is, longer).

Facial features: Quite a lot of KF's have somewhat more widely spaced eyes than males usually do - a feminized feature.

Learning disabilities: mild, but pronounced. A little bit behind norm for family. No evidence that Jimmy has ever had learning disabilities.

I always thought that Joey Ramone of the Ramones (born Jeff Hyman) had KF and covered it up. He was a classic: 6'6" inches, very skinny but rounded hips, long long legs. If you saw pics of him as a young man he looked like an esp. tall fashion model from the neck down.

He also came from a tall family but he was taller by 3-4 inches than his dad or brother. His body type was literally feminine. He couldn't shave, and was sterile. Not "fertility problems" - sterile.

I don't think Jimmy has KF. I don't think he has any genetic or metabolic problems except a gargantuan appetite.

It is true that Jimmy could be sterile but this one characteristic in itself doesn't indicate KF diagnosis.

Diana said...

I forgot another aspect of KF: musculature. Look at these pics of Joey Ramone: no muscles, girl's hips.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GRof26xNyX8/T8GjSf5gUUI/AAAAAAAAGxM/2Z4eUn0YfzU/s1600/Joey-Ramone.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/18188087/Joey+Ramone.jpg

Also when Joey took of the glasses you saw the classic KF facial features: widely spaced feminine eyes.

Diana said...

Whatever Jimmy's genetic issues are, if they exist at all, the fact remains that the LC "community"* is in deep denial and confusion about calories. Half the "community" sticks to the old metabolic advantage BS. The other half says that LC doesn't deny calories, it just claims that eating protein and fat satisfies you so much you naturally eat less.

Both these notions are in direct conflict, and the second one is demonstrably crazy on its face, as not only Jimmy's but so many other tortured LC confessionals prove. If the second notion were true then we wouldn't have LC forums full of baffled people testifying why their macadamia nut and cream cheese bacchanals aren't working.

*I put the word "community" in quotation marks because as you point out, how can something transient and anonymous truly be called a community? It's more like an audience.

eulerandothers said...

It's easy enough to skip over posts that address the latest Jimmy Moore developments.

I first heard him on his podcast about low-carbing. He's got a website. He's got a blog. He's got books. He's got podcasts. And you can donate to him! (Just as you can donate to Taubes - '90% of funds go to research')

How is observing Low Carb spokespersons, people who make a career out of persuading frustrated dieters to buy into the low-carb lifestyle, any different from watching the Home Shopping Network? If it's really just the science, why would you want donations?

The audience isn't just entertained, they actually apply what they hear to their lives - swearing off their crazy doctors who don't know 'the truth.' I'm sure there are low-carbing parents who think they will protect their children from obesity by keeping their carbs under control, even when the kids aren't overweight.

George Henderson said...

Hey, you'd probably approve of Prof. Feinman's latest post.

http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/hunger-what-it-is-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/

I know I did.

It occurs to me that no-one with a home and a steady job even knows what hunger is.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

It occurs to me that no-one with a home and a steady job even knows what hunger is.

I'll read the post later, but had to comment on this. So true!

Diana said...

I agree with you about hunger, George, but I had a look at Feinman's article and had the same reax as I do whenever I encounter the LC preachers. If a person isn't satisfied after eating a substantial amount of protein, maybe there is something wrong with LC dogma about satiety? Why is the favorite food of the Hadza, both men and women, honey?

julianne said...

Have you seen Neely's posts on her nutritional ketosis experiment? There are several.
http://www.paleoplan.com/2012/11-12/ketosis-experiment-update-i-yield/

blogblog said...

I agree. Jimmy is merely fat and flabby. He has no apparent symptoms of KF.

blogblog said...

Joey Ramone had Marfans's Syndrome - not KF.

gunther gatherer said...

Hey low carbers, just found a new youtube update on this Jimmy saga:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PutaZQN8R34

It's, well... wonderful.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

I don't think it's KF because I cannot believe he'd get to this point w/o that being diagnosed (if for no other reason than undergoing IVF with his wife in 2007ish. And of course now when I Google Image hypogonadism the images I was seeing aren't there. There are major similarities in his appearance AND issues he's shared that point in that direction. Which raises the interesting question if long term VLC hasn't contributed to some underlying issue. I don't buy that this has much if anything to do with his appetite, but some of his other health markers could be explained by this. In which case it is even more imperative, if he's interested in health, to adopt a diet that manages his condition better.

Diana said...

"Which raises the interesting question if long term VLC hasn't contributed to some underlying issue."

Actually - there are two kinds of low carb now that I think of it. There's the old Stillman diet, which was a true high protein diet - low fat and low carb. (I should say no fat except for what was in the protein sources, and no carb.)

And then there is what Jimmy and the 'bots practice: super high fat, moderate protein, VLC.

Perhaps it's all the fat that's the issue? Just asking.

Diana said...

Yes, that was the story. I'm saying I don't believe it. Marfan's doesn't cause sterility, round hips, beardlessness, learning disabilities....he got away with the Marfan's story because, as a rock frontman, admitting to KS would have raised issues of sexuality. Which is ridiculous, because KS boys are not intersexual and there's no evidence that they are more likely to be gay than non-KS guys.

Diana said...

Very funny but isn't it kind of dishonest in its own way? Not to defend Jimmy but he didn't gain back ALL the 180 pounds he lost, "only" 76 pounds. And they are very anti-meat, eggs, and dairy, which they say promotes disease.

Although I did like the dig at Sally Fallon. Her book, Nourishing Traditions, is the worst cookbook I ever had. She recommends you ferment vegetables in whey, which doesn't work at all, and the recipes are horrible. And her group promotes food neurosis, don't eat this, don't eat that, canola oil will kill you.

I am tired of the religion of foodism.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Yes, but not that final update. NOBODY, and I do mean nobody, should have been encouraging this woman. I am sad she even felt the need to try this herself ...

I see Attia is using performance enhancing drugs pre-workout*

*He has written posts and in talks equated carbs with performance enhancing drugs ... saying his minor drop in performance was worthwhile to avoid the negative "side effects" (just like he avoids PED's to avoid their side effects). So this is a fair representation of what Attia is promoting these days in SuperStarch.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Amen ;-)

Diana said...

Reading this made me sad, and also mad. The amount of fat this woman consumed was f*cking insane. I ate nothing but fat for a few days and got very sick. Is there something about eating huge amounts of fat that does this?

Diana said...

You devil! :)

gunther gatherer said...

I didn't post because of the veganism, just for the obese Jimmy and LCer tie-in. Yes, we all have to take a step back and realize we're all quite lucky just to be having these best-diet arguments at all.

Lerner said...

What struck me in the comments were the machinations and the amount of effort that people go through to enable sticking to an offbeat diet. Also one comment led to this:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread70009.html
which is the Primal Potato Diet, seemingly what the original potato diet guy did, except with the word "Primal" up front. So that is further dilution of the LC in Paleo, which is good.


Btw, I was at the supermarket today and coconuts were on sale. I asked the produce manager if the coconuts were grass fed. He looked at me like I was crazy. Apparently he doesn't know his job very well.

Lerner said...

That video was interesting on various levels. It's not quite fair to compare one example LCer to one example vegan (e.g., as was done in the past with Sisson to Ornish). But if there is an overall pattern as this video suggests, then that is relevant. Still, my guess has always been that macros ratios don't matter much, mainly calories do.

The video does show the appeal that a clever presentation can have. I'd give Jimmy a break, though, in that recomp takes more than 6 months... then again, the Extreme Losers seem to end up better shaped, probably because of more exercise.


Is the Cordain picture representative? A person can have one picture that looks uncharacteristically bad, or good. Ah well, it's probably representative; that's too bad. Cordain always struck me as a class act. Example: the vegans would criticize the Paleos for being too greedy with resources -- e.g., killing all the animals. The Paleos came back with the weak counter about how so many rodents were killed when big harvester machines went through huge grain fields. I remember Cordain saying that the criticism was true. That was on an SHR show some time ago. He's not part of Paleo, Inc. as far as I can see.

Diana said...

@GG - I thought it was a funny enough video - I just think that to be really good, grade A funny it should also have been 100% accurate, which it wasn't.

@Lerner, Yeah, Cordain and Sally Fallon have both aged quite a bit since their publicity pix have been taken, and people do get fat. That said, Fallon is IMO a food neurosis inducer, her cookbook is full of bad info, the recipes suck, and I'm not gonna stop eating small amounts of canola because she says it's poisonous, so I'm cutting her less slack than Cordain. She gotten quite heavy, and she recommends that people get over their fat-phobia - that is a huge part of her message. The part of her message that LCers repeat, because it enables their obsession with fat and their overconsumption of same.

Honestly, I don't think Low Carb should be called that. Let's dispense with the BS and call it what it is: high fat.

Back to Cordain, his old colleague Melvin Konner convinced me that caloric deprivation was the way Paleo man stayed in energy balance. Then I discovered Carbsane and the rest was history.

Diana said...

Sorry, I should have edited better. Fallon recommends people get over their fat-phobia (good) by eating loads and loads of fat. (Bad.)

lian johnston said...

"Is the Cordain picture representative?"

Absolutely. Just do a google image search of him. Mr paleo himself is very unhealthy looking imo. He could honestly be mistaken for someone who picks up a pack of cigarettes and donuts on his way to work. It's enough to turn anyone off high protein diets.

It's kind of funny see him talking about how unhealthy and stupid vegetarian diets are when there's so many people following vegetarian diets who seem to be doing better than him health wise.

Galina L. said...

Probably it is reasonable for anyone to refuse to discuss does he has or not a condition associated with things like small testicles, underdeveloped penis and other rather private issues (besides metabolic disturbances) and not to look like he is not interested in solving metabolic mysteries.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Galina, I never said he had to address these issues publicly. He could have just ignored Regina's post, but he's linking to them on FB. He ignored the main crux of her post. He's the one that shares way TMI ... I wish he wouldn't. But it was he who let the cat out of the bag discussing his infertility (low sperm count & motility), low testosterone, etc. Where body fat distribution and disease are concerned hypogonadism is related to these. You can't just separate out some hormones from others (yet another reason TWICHOO is so absurd). For example, hypogonadism is associated with increased CVD risk: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21852391

For the record, since our blogger friend is displaying her knack for lack of reading comprehension again, I did not diagnose him with KS (though he bears a stark resemblance to one image on Google) and I've stated in comments that I tend to think that is not the cause of his hypogonadism b/c he produces sperm. But there are myriad causes of the hypoG, he has shared that he has clinical presentations consistent with this condition, and he looks the part. But it's mean of me to simply repeat Regina's observations and suggest Jimmy address his hormonal issues (didn't say that had to be public). FWIW, here's Jimmy and his brother Kevin. Kevin is a different kind of obese, and he was not considerably overweight in high school where he was a football player. I think that's in Jimmy's odd tribute video. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2176/2241914573_79727fd172.jpg That's in Feb 2008, circa 265 lbs for Jimmy.

Galina L. said...

Sure, I googled hypogonadism and found out that it associated with increased CVD risk(together with low testosteron, abnormal testicles, small penis and the rest), and indeed JM was first to mention his sperm count and low testosterone. But, I guess, private issues like genetic abnormalities could really heart , and if it is the case, are not his fault like whatever he does or choices he makes.Just, probably, it is better to have more compassion when it comes to very private matters regardless of what his frenemy Regina said.

It looks like not only Dr.Emily Dean is aware of metabolism and mental health connection, it is going mainstream . I just got the new Science magazine issue, and there is a big article "Metabolism and the Brain" by Oksana Kaidanovich-Beilin, Danielle S. Cha, and RogerS.McIntyre. It is said in the summary (or the introduction) sentence under the article title - "Evidence for the role of insulin in meditating normal and abnormal brain function may lead to new treatments for neurological and psychiatric disorders". I predict soon the idea about the connection will sink into masses and blog commenters will start to accuse people with apparently unperfect metabolism in having all sort of mental issues because of that association.
The last part of my comment is actually a rant.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Well, when you called Regina a "frenemy" you lost me Galina. There was nothing wrong with her post.

I don't care if -- heck I'd rather not! -- Jimmy discusses his hormonal issues, but HE is the one looking for the answers to mysteries. HE is the one who claims to be on a quest for health not just weight loss. HE is the one who cannot bring himself to address the nightmarish LDL and sweeps it under the rug. Heck, he is the one who posted less than spectacular DEXA results that should serve as a wake up call to him in regards to his abdominal adiposity. But that is not where his quest has gone. Which was the point of this post. He doesn't care about "the truth" at all. Because he stopped the testosterone even though there is a plethora of scientific literature pointing to nothing but benefits for men in his situation.

I'm going to be sarcastic here in response to your rant. It's kidding around ... please take it that way. You wrote: " I predict soon the idea about the connection will sink into masses and blog commenters will start to accuse people with apparently unperfect metabolism in having all sort of mental issues because of that association. " I have noticed that ketones seem to cause mental issues with far too many in this community. ;-)

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

BTW Galina ... would you consider Jimmy *pretty* broad shouldered? I'd say he's pretty narrow shouldered. Yet I just listened to him tell audiences not once but twice in recent podcasts that he's a very tall guy (true, about 95th percentile) who is pretty broad shouldered. That's a JOKE.

Kade Storm said...

Calories are definitely the fundamental determining factors, but I think macro ratios can play a part in the equation depending on how the individual reacts to a given nutrient. Also, from what I know about de novo lipogenesis on this blog and other outlets (Lyle McDonald), it should be a little bit harder to gain weight on a low-fat diet, and even though DNL kicks into high gear when a person is consuming less than 10% of their calories from fat, it isn't all that substantial. Wasn't there some reference Evelyn made where it showed that the actual fat gain from DNL was feeble while the substantial adipose gain came from the dietary fat content?

Galina L. said...

No, I don't think that "broadshoulderd" is a good description of JM. I also don't think that he is looking for solving medical mysteries, rather trying to find a simple solution for his complex problem, jumping from one thing to another. Weight-loss is complicated, and keeping it off is complicated as well.
If I were a real friend of JM, and suspected he had a hypogonadism , I would try to communicate with him in private before posting my opinion on internet. One thing he discusses his low sperm count himself, another somebody else does it on the blog. You know, when a black person uses an "N" world, it is perceived differently than when somebody from different race does it.
I was sarcastic as well, besides I am not blessed with turbo-metabolism myself(there is no way I would loose 60 lb in 6 month doing combination of ketosis and fasting).

Galina L. said...

Satiety of a diet is often the determine factor in the consuption of calories.
I used to have gallbladder problems, then it was removed 12 years ago, so I had to give a low-fat diet a fare shot, besides back then I was interested in counting calories. In short I can say it caused satiety problems and frequent eating. I tried to count calories, but I it is harder when you eat often.
Probably, the worst application o LF eating I witnessed in people (my first MIL and her mom) - frequent hot sweet tea drinking with white bread smeared with fruit preserves (sometimes other spreads as well in a thin layer). They were not thin in case somebody is guessing.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Thing is Galina, we don't know that she didn't try. What is apparent in the comments (I wish she wouldn't allow "Anonymous" comments cuz it's hard to follow if you're reading the comments of one or several people) is that there are many Jimmy has slighted. Not sure the N word analogy is apt here. I think the LC community is nervous of this mockery Jimmy is making out of low carb. Either way it doesn't look good. Either he's (a) labeling LC strategies that have worked for many "mistakes" or (b) saying that eventually you'll have to eat this ridiculous diet or the weight will come back.

I notice he has been mentioning Robb Wolf a lot lately (after I wrote my post about Robb's latest on carbs) ... he brushed it off on FB. The LC cruise is going to be a disaster if just he, Robb and Bailor speak to their true beliefs!

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

That last paragraph should read that I noticed the mentioning after I had written my post ... not that Jimmy was mentioning him a lot after my post. Just wanted to make that clear.

Diana said...

The upshot of this is that Jimmy's life is an open book - and he can't pick and choose what silly things people will say about him. Full disclosure: I don't currently read his blog because I think it's a train wreck of bad ideas and dense type. But from what I gather here (and from my past reading of it), he indulges in all sorts of embarrassing personal disclosures. Not to mention filming his wife wailing in pain as she learned that her latest attempt at getting pregnant was a failure? Unspeakable.

However, I dislike bad info and wild conjecture, and that's why I wrote that I seriously doubt he has KF. Absent a published karyotype, I would be astonished if he had KF. He shows no signs of the condition.

I do think his obesity plays a part in his issues.

http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20060901/male-infertility-may-have-obesity-link

At this point it's pretty obvious that whatever is causing his obesity, he's a classic case. I don't know what the fuck is causing it. I don't know if it is his genes, his upbringing, or the earth's rotation around the sun, but this guy seems to get a kick out of living his life in public and on the edge, passively-aggressively starting conflicts (I think he LOVES that), keeping everything and everyone at full boil (drama queen?), succeeding, and failing, and succeeding again, so that he can pound his chest and belt out yet another chorus of "Nessun Dorma" (Vincero! cue the Puccini....)

Whatever this is, it ain't weight loss he's after. A cynic might say he's just losing weight so that he can gain it again.

Me? Cynical? If I tell you to bite your tongues, at least it's low-carb.

Galina, I know that I'm not gonna change your mind any more than you are going to change mine, but I just have to respond when you give us the line about how weight loss isn't simple. It IS simple. But simple isn't easy. Lots of things in the world are simple and hard. It is hard to live in an obesogenic environment and keep a normal, stable weight, esp. when that environment schizophrenically and cruelly derides the overweight with idealized images of super-thin women and super-muscled men.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Just to clarify, I do not believe he has KF but the only thing about him that doesn't scream hypogonadism from some cause is the body hair, which I've seen in many cases on websites aimed at those with hypoG. There
are many causes of hypoG and whether it's obesity caused it or it causes obesity ... who knows. I do believe it is not helping his fat distribution and thus metabolic profile whichever is the cause/effect resulting in that.

Yes, he thrives on conflict. That's why he had me on his podcast. He's just bummed he couldn't control the outcome which I'm pretty sure didn't include what's become of me since it aired ;)

Diana said...

I should be clear here too. I think his fertility problems are linked to his obesity. To me he doesn't look hypoG, KS or otherwise.

Galina L. said...

It didn't looked for me that JM gave the post his approval in any part, I could be mistaken.
I don't think Jimmy represents every LCarber, but he is watched as a public person, not necessary as a beacon to follow.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Not quite sure what you mean by giving his approval.

Jimmy is a huge liability for paleo (as an obese, not "true believer", Johnny-come-lately, rabble rouser) and he has become one to LC as well. Problem is he's had unwavering support and this has allowed him to become synonymous with LC. Of course he doesn't represent every one, but he's got the podcasts and all that jazz. Low carb blogger. Who do you think of? Next one on the list isn't even close. Low carb podcast. Same. And I don't see that changing because everyone including folks like Attia has to pass through the Jimmy Moore filter. It's really pretty pathetic!

Galina L. said...

Just in order to put things straight, until a menopause takes place, I will be mostly in ketosis for the migraine control. I have more than one reason to follow my diet.
Talking about weight issues,
@Diana, when I said the weight loss was hard, I mostly thought about that it required fighting own body systems. On the food regiment I am now, I would be loosing 1 lb a week 5 years ago, but it provides just maintenance right now, which is fine with me, but I am not sure about my future post-menopause situation .Hormones are not on our side as well. Probably, I have much easier life than other people in US who have to find ways to eat less. Due to being from another culture, the US environment is not obesogenic for me, most foods here that people can't resist have no appeal for me, like 99% of sweets are too sweet to taste good, and ready-to-eat entries have too much flavor, I don't like Oreos and cookies with chips or pb, it is a long list. I cook all food myself all my life. I noticed you put a lot of emphasis on self-discipline , and I also think it is important. In my case LC diet normalized my appetite and it made self-discipline much easy. At 50+ years I have no ambitions to look for a magazine cover-girl and am satisfied with my size 12, way better than 16 six years ago.

Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

Just curious ... are you expecting migraine issues to go away with menopause? Is this because they go with your cycles?

Galina L. said...

You asked me what I think. So there are just my thoughts:
First of all, I guess, many very overweight people may find it easy to relate to his problems,from their perspective , loosing the weight he lost may be not too bad at all (it fits the criteria of weight loss success even at 306 lb), and I doubt many of his dieting readers just have their extra pounds melting down month after month with constant speed, my guess, most dieters have at least some weight fluctuations. Even people with bariatric surgeries continue to have weight issues. After a person got to 400 lb, there was some damage done, making way back really difficult. His body is working hard to put him way back.It would be nice he became a person with normal weight, but how realistic to expect that , considering everything? Who knows, may be some will find a story of a perfect weight loss to be boring and rubbing their noses into it.
Second, Jimmy put the final fat dot in the discussions about the possibility to gain weight eating LC diet. It is possible. It is official now.

For LC community public figures he must be the guy who keeps trying, he would be the liability if he got into some health crisis (I hope he will not) beyond wrong cholesterol numbers. I don't think he does everything right, but he is not qualified as a failure, if you try to not only count negative things,but also taking positives into your consideration.

Galina L. said...

It is possible. Ketosis controls rather well migraines that are caused by stress,long travel, missing meals,but the after menstruation migraines are difficult to avoid, however it doesn't last for 3 - 4 days any longer, it is now 1 - 2 days, with less vomiting, not every month, Taurine seems to be helpful, sometimes I do myself magnesium. I spoke with ladies older than 60 who had migraines before, but do not any longer as they aged. So, I hope,a menopause will help.
I inherited migraines from my father, who obviously didn't have hormonal fluctuations.

Galina L. said...

I wanted to print "magnesium injections", sorry

Kade Storm said...

True, satiety and hunger signals are important factors.

Although I should add that most people who are on 'diets' are on them for a reason. Lack of slimness tends to top the charts.


I have a question, kind of unrelated and more about the whole allergenic aspect of diet. You said that you consumed soy on your low-fat diet and that it was quite offensive in terms of health outcomes. How much were you consuming, roughly speaking?

Charles Grashow said...

Why would anyone start then stop testosterone cream? Has he had his Free and Total testosterone measured recently?

Galina L. said...

It was 6 years ago, as I can recollect now, it was like 3 - 4 oz of tofu a day in stir-fry or smoothies with fruits,or in a mayo-like souse. It is difficult to single-out one food item as being an offender. I think it is also quite possible that LC eating eliminated another wrong for me food - a wheat bread. When I sometimes eat it now, I have a fluid retention and strange pains in hand joints. I never tried to eat soy foods again except for soy souse.

Kade Storm said...

Yeah, I was just curious because I don't consider it to be a good regular food choice for those who want to go low-fat, because, firstly, it's not really a low-in-fat food, plus (the part that I'm really interested in) there's all sorts of speculation--some extreme and some valid--about other problems that accompany soy. All my friends in the far east only consumed things like tofu sparingly--it was their 'once or twice a week item--and even fermented soy was consumed in very small amounts.

Wheat also seems to be problematic for quite a few people I know.

Galina L. said...

Probably, the tofu blended with buttermilk and spices in order to work as a very low-fat dressing in salads was the worst soy offender in my diet.
It took me a while to be able to eat fat again without a GI distress after a gallbladder was removed . Body is adaptable. I value a lot vitamins that are in animal fats, and I think the fat from grass-fat animals is an important source of O3 oil for people who can't eat fish, like me and my son due to allergy. So, I don't think it is wise to keep animal fat in a diet as low as possible. It is much more than just some source of calories. I think my skin and hair look better now.

Kade Storm said...

Skin and hair. Yeah, I've heard about the benefits and ones that go beyond just the O3 content or O3 to O6 ratio of the food source.

Well, thanks for that, Galina, and a good seasonal time to you.

Galina L. said...

Thank you, Kade, have a nice Christmas and New Year season, whatever you are celebrating. People of different cultures try to find ways to make the darkest time of the year as pleasant as possible.

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