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Saturday, January 5, 2013

The JimKKKins Trio: What did they know, When did they know it, and Does it Matter?

Since no other names have popped up over the past few days, it appears that only three people in the greater low-carb/paleo community were ensnared by the cunning "Dr." David Duke.  I've now listened to all three interviews on Duke's radio program.  Coupled with the stories/explanations each have provided, there are three different sets of circumstances for those trying to decide for themselves what appearances by these individuals on this notorious racist's show mean to them.    In order of their appearances on the show:

Dr. William "Wheat Belly" Davis:  Appeared 2/10/12 (rebroadcast in March)
  • The program begins with an audio announcement by Duke explaining that Davis does not know who he is.  Paraphrase:  "He doesn't want to get Davis in trouble"
  • Duke pretends to be somewhere in Central Europe at one point in the interview.
  • Duke mentions that he's a history professor
  • When introduced Davis responds with thanks or pleasure to be here or somesuch, but does not acknowledge the interviewer by name.
  • They discuss manufacturers and the word globalism of globalists comes up but of the three interviews there is the least mention of politics and most science talk.
  • There is no linking to this interview on the Wheat Belly blog.
  • When his appearance was revealed by Jimmy Moore and  asked about this on his blog, Davis responds 
    • It was a mistake to go on his show.
    • He honored a request for a rather long interview from a Dr. Duke in Europe at a time when he was being swamped with 4-20 requests per day.
    • His appearance does not reflect at all on his views
  • Davis gives no indication as to when it was he discovered he'd been duped.  In other words we don't know when he realized he'd appeared on the radio program of a known racist.
  • At this time, Davis gives no indication that he has taken any action to have the interview removed from Duke's website as a result of the false pretenses under which he agreed to be interviewe.
  • It is unknown whether or not his publisher was involved in setting up the interview.
Some Commentary:  Davis' response here is very strange.  This is a serious issue that he appears not to be taking seriously as he accuses others of trying to make something out of this.  Ummm.  Dr. Davis, you granted an interview, whether knowingly or not, to a notorious neo-Nazi former Grand Wizard of the KKK.  This man supposedly went to considerable lengths to conceal his true identity and location to con you into coming onto his program.  Are you not just a little more outraged that this "mistake" has resulted in a large bolded font headed blog post on the pretty-popular LLVLC blog connecting your name to the term neo-Nazi??  Would it not be prudent to formally disavow any association?  Have you or will you take any action, legal or otherwise, to have the interview removed from Duke's website/archives on the basis of his misrepresenting his identity?  How, at a time when you claim 4-20 media appearance requests a day, does a shady history professor somewhere in Central Europe somehow make the cut for a rather lengthy interview?  How was the interview conducted?  Did you call him, he call you, etc.etc.   It is definitely relevant and needs to be known whether or not Rodale had any knowledge of and/or participated in arranging this interview.  My take is that this response also raises more questions than it answers.   While Duke's verbiage is the most tame in this interview of the three, he still throws out mentions of his and/or his listeners' beliefs.  I don't consider myself the most worldly person of my age (which Davis looks to be at least that), but I've been around the block enough to recognize code words and the like.  So my question to Davis is this:  Did at any point in the interview you become the least bit curious as to the beliefs and activities of your interviewer?  Or was the whole "he didn't know who I was" known to you to cover your butt?  


Dr. Doug McGuff co-author of Body by Science.  
Appeared in a two part interview Feb 24, 25 2012
  • The interview also appears to have been pre-recorded with commercials etc. inserted afterwards.  It also appears to have been taped in one very long session.  
  • At one point you hear a buzzer and Duke says 'we need to go to break'.  One can probably presume McGuff was not hearing/listening to commercials.  While there's nothing nefarious in the commercials, Duke's mention of his videos and views and such would at least rate a curious inquiry.
  • There's an accompanying web page with David Duke Commentary containing this disclaimer:   My radio programs interview a wide range of experts in many areas of life, politics, finance, health, science, and the fact that I interview them obviously does not mean I necessarily agree with every position they may represent, and certainly does not necessarily mean the individual agrees with every position that I hold. I endeavor to engage the personalities I interview in a low key, almost anonymous manner, so as not to affect the interview by issues extraneous to the subject at hand.  I don’t want my other viewpoints to influence the candid response of the person that I interview on the subjects at hand. There is such an intellectual suppression going today, that the new inquisitors against free speech want to make some subjects and some personalities off limits. I will interview and engage in discussion with anyone in regard to any subject I find valuable to the well-being of my own nation and people and indeed all nations and peoples around the world.
  • Upon introduction McGuff responds with thanks or pleasure to be here or something like that (I will not relisten!) but addresses him by name: Dr. Duke.  
  • At about the 33:45 mark (I clipped out commercial break) Duke mentions that a lot of his listenership is very scientific minded and are anti-globalist.  McGuff responds in stride.  Listen for yourselves:
        Hosted by Kiwi6 file hosting.
        • When outed on Jimmy Moore's blog, McGuff responded.  Screenshot at right, click to view full size.  Summary:
          • Duke contacted his manager on multiple occasions
          • McGuff requested examples of his work which Duke provided, and there were no red flags in that material
          • "Dr. Duke" represented himself as a history professor at American University in England.
          • McGuff didn't know it was *THE* Dr. David Duke until a client/Duke radio listener left him a voicemail about his appearance.
          • McGuff wanted to puke
          • McGuff or his peeps did not do due diligence in vetting Duke and if he'd known about his full true identity he would not have done the interview.
        • There is no reference to this interview on the BBS website/blog, disavowing this.  
        • McGuff waited roughly nine months to speak out about this only after Jimmy Moore "outed" him.
        • It certainly does not appear that McGuff took any action in these intervening nine months since he admits to being aware that he had indeed granted a long interview with *the* David Duke.  
        • It would appear that his Ultimate Exercise (corrected from Ultimate Science) "gig" was the route by which this interview was arranged, but we do not know whether or not McGraw Hill, his publisher, is aware of this and/or had anything to do with the interview.
        Some Commentary:  Alongside many who have commented on this issue here at The Asylum, I share a certain disbelief in these stories based on the ho-hum nature of the response by McGuff.  As is Davis, McGuff is apparently a practicing physician first.  That may well not be either's main focus, or it may still be, I'm not sure.  But we are talking about an intelligent man here, whom we are to believe agreed to an interview with *a* "Dr. Duke" (first name David it would appear) and came to realize he'd been duped a long time ago.  Where was the outrage, moral or otherwise?    As he was doing the interview, when Duke started talking about his beliefs and that of his listeners and identified as an anti-globalist, did he not have the smallest of lingering thoughts/questions about who this guy he'd just chatted it up with for well over an hour?  I find that hard to believe.  

        I am very much interested in the outcome of Peter Heimlich's  inquiry into the role, if any, of the publishers in these two matters.  My gut says that the PR peeps at these two mainstream publishers are far too media savvy to fall for something like this.  This therefore raises more serious questions as to the personal involvement in the decision-making and arrangement processes ... as well as the fall-out and inadequate response to date.  And then there's 


        Jimmy Moore of Livin La Vida Low Carb blog, Appears Dec. 7, 2012.
        • For some reason or another, there is no blog post on Duke's website announcing this interview to his readers. 
        • There is no "disclaimer", either written or verbal setting up Jimmy's appearance, indicating that "Dr. Duke" engaged in any manner of hiding his full true identity to protect Jimmy or obtain unbiased answers.
        The remainder of this comes from piecing together from Jimmy's response and his accompanying comments and responses.
        • He knew him as Dr. David Duke pretty much from first contact but claims he didn't know of "THE" Dr. Duke.
        • In October, a reader sent him links to nutrition articles on Duke's site and urged him to get Duke on his LLVLC podcast.
        • Jimmy followed those links to the website claiming to be unaware of who David Duke was and was impressed by the low-carb-message-friendly nature of the various articles. 
        • No mention of if he clicked on the "About" tab to see who he was dealing with, or any of the other more potentially inflammatory topics adorning the header of the website on each and every page.
        • Jimmy contacts Duke to appear on LLVLC podcast.
        • Duke says he'd like to, but invites Jimmy to come on his Fitness Fridays segment first.
        • Dec. 7 Jimmy appears -- LIVE. This is an important distinction compared with the Drs. Duped, because he is interrupted by commercial music and it is a reasonable assumption that Jimmy listened to the non-interview content of the program.
        • To repeat, there was no lead-in by Duke informing the audience of how he had to trick Jimmy in order to get him to appear on his show. Instead there's a 5+ minute political rant on unrelated topics such as Hollywood, the globalist media, and alcohol and all that jazz.  
        • Later on Dec 7, Jimmy posts a link to the show on Facebook and his LLVLC Discussion board. 
        • That same day, a FB friend asks if this is the "infamous" David Duke? Jimmy responds "Yep!"  Jimmy now claims he thought "infamous" meant his friend had heard of this new LC voice that had been taking the community by storm that everyone was talking about.  / sarcasm
        • On Dec 12 another FB friend expresses his dismay that Jimmy would associate with someone of Duke's questionable character.  Jimmy does not respond.  
        • On Dec 22 Jimmy links to David Duke in his latest roundup of 36 Paleo/LC/Health blogs to check out.  By this point the third nutrition story on that page is entitled:  The Great Porn Experiment - One More Devastating Jewish Globalist Influence and How to Overcome It! 
        • In short order, he is asked on his blog if he's a fan of Duke by one commenter, and informed he's a neo-Nazi by another.  Jimmy responds that Duke's nutritional info is spot on and expands upon that stating Duke had invited him onto his radio program to the second  It doesn't matter to him what Duke's other beliefs might be.  Jimmy then deleted both comments and his responses.
        • On LLVLC discussion forum thread some replies were finally made, a conversation ensued, but Jimmy removed that thread.  At some point he also deletes the link to Duke on his website.
        • On Dec. 29 Jimmy writes his "response".  In doing research for that response, Jimmy discovered that Drs. McGuff and Davis had been on in February.  Jimmy puts this forth as evidence that he's being singled out because there was no blowback against the others.
        • In comments, in response to McGuff, Jimmy describes the above scenario as "almost precisely" like what McGuff described happened to him.  This was despite the only similarity being that he'd been interviewd by Duke, and after having described in the post proper how he had just that day learned of the McGuff's and Davis' appearances (prompting his post title). 
        • In the same comment response Jimmy claims that Duke had dropped the names of McGuff, Davis and others in order to convince him to come on the program.
        • Jimmy accuses his critics of engaging in gestapo tactics as used by 1930's Nazi secret police while claiming multiple times he had never even heard the term neo-Nazi before in his 41 years of life.
        Some Commentary:  First, I think it is important to break this into parts, beginning with distinguishing and evaluating what is going on here separately for each of the three individuals involved.  Each should be judged on their own circumstances and responses.  As such, while I'm left wanting from both doctor's responses, they should be given their own "fair shake" separate and apart from Jimmy Moore's unequivocally dishonest accounting of his experiences.

        That said, Jimmy has clearly been caught engaging in highly questionable professional behavior.  He is a "professional podcaster", a journalist of sorts with three profitable podcasts airing 5 days a week as of earlier this year.  For the better part of almost two years (if not longer), Jimmy has been viewed more in this light and credited more for bringing lots of good information and making many experts accessible to the greater community, than for his weight loss success story.  So one of the somewhat overlooked aspects of his story is that he contacted Duke.  Imagine, if you will, that Duke had not started his "Fitness Fridays" segment on the radio show, so there would not have been a reason for him to turn the tables to invite Jimmy on his show.  I'm only going by what Jimmy tells us, which is that he invited Duke to come on his program.  This after  having viewed the materials at the davidduke dot com website.  So this is pretty darned damning of Jimmy's vetting/screening process as to who he brings on to his podcasts and ultimately what info they share, not to mention what expertise they have.  He clearly didn't even do the most cursory vetting of the man reading the  About page on the website, let alone the simplest of Google searches, if that reading left any doubt about the man.  Can you just imagine how that would have gone down?  A LLVLC podcast discussing his views, perhaps sponsored by the latest book slandering Calorie Wizards by Adam Kosloff.  ( don't think sponsors necessarily get to choose which episodes they sponsor -- my own was sponsored by Sisson and Kosloff. )  Perhaps Duke sticks only to nutrition, but Jimmy mentions his website and links to it in the show notes.   But that didn't happen, seemingly only because Jimmy went on Duke's show first.

        As I mentioned in my audio commentary, what we have here is a situation where a not-untrivial "crime" was complicated considerably further by his "cover-up".   There are some claims open to interpretation or whether or not Jimmy Moore can be taken at his word.  There are other statements that are uniequivocally FALSE.  He cannot say he misspoke.  Duke injected non-nutrition views right smack in the middle of the interview with no response from Jimmy (either during or after).  Jimmy had visited and linked to THE official website of THE David Duke, even if we are to believe he had no clue because of his own lack of time to do miniscule poking about.  Jimmy had reason to at least investigate further after the Dec 12 FB message before linking to that blog on the 22nd.    It is not possible that Jimmy just learned on 12/29 of the Davis and McGuff appearances and that he was "conned" in "almost precisely" the same manner as the Drs  with Duke mentioning their earlier appearances.  Just not possible for these two "facts" to both be true.  Therefore at least one is a flat out lie.  Given just that FACT alone, there are any number of other inconsistencies for which one can no longer give Jimmy the benefit of the doubt -- some even less believable (I didn't know what a neo-Nazi was!) than the denials that came before (I never knew who David Duke was until some time after December 22, by "infamous" he thought his friend was referring to the non-existence of Duke being well known for his nutritional views).  Taken on their own, each of the latter claims can be explained away by a plausible, however improbable, statement.  Taken together?  



        THE BOTTOM LINES

        The Doctors: It seems to me that for McGuff and Davis, it is their association with David Duke in any manner that presents the most serious problem.  At the very least, we are now to believe they are both careless authors working with suboptimal intelligence when giving interviews.  This brings into question the level of intelligence and care that went into compiling the information in their books.  I have not read McGuff's, but Davis' certainly leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the science put forth.

        Jimmy Moore:  In Jimmy's case, while his appearance on Duke's program is the most damning  due to its live nature and lack of any disclaimer put forth by Duke regarding any effort to conceal his full/true identity, the more problematic hole Jimmy finds himself in is the one he has dug by lying about it.  If this were the first instance of this man lying in the course of doing business as Less Of Moore More Or Less LLC, this might not be as big an issue.  But it's not.  His past professional malfeasance with his involvement with the Kimkins scam has been revisited here and elsewhere of late for good reason.  There are too many parallels to ignore.  The promises Jimmy Moore made in 2007 when he apologized and asked for forgiveness were broken in 2012.   If you have not read that apology yet,  now would be a good time to do so.    The many parallels are endless and worthy of a post of their own.  For now I'll leave you with the following (please do read the whole thing, I am not trying to change the meaning by crunching down a few paragraphs to make this point, if anyone feels I am please feel free to state your case in comments):
        2007: .... my refusal to properly review and then hold Kimkins to the same standard as other plans and approaches I’ve praised and criticized was a glaring mistake of omission for which I regret. ... Call me stubborn, but for the life of me I could not see what the problem was; I truly believed I was indeed following K/E and honestly had not reviewed the other plans on the site. ... I regret that I allowed my excitement about my renewed commitment to losing those last few pounds I wanted to overwhelm me to the point I lost my good sense.
        I hope sharing this with you today will help us all avoid making similar missteps in the future. 
        and now 2012:

        In my opinion, if the Paleo and LC communities learn anything from this, it's a lesson in who to trust to bring you all the "latest information".  You just never know what you're going to get, it might just be being sent to the website of the notorious racist David Duke ... because being a former Grand Wizard of the KKK doesn't matter when you're spreading the Good Word of Low Carb.  Only it sure as heck does ...

        39 comments:

        fiero-flash said...

        Sorry for the long post, but...

        Part 1 of 2:

        I think Jimmy's been given too much of the benefit of the doubt. Sure, he could have made one incredibly poorly informed decision after another. He could have missed sign after sign about what was going on. He could have lived in a bubble where, despite his age and geographical location, he had never heard of David Duke (at least the other two more believably say they just didn't think it was that David Duke). He could have never had a racist thought in his life and somehow ended up in this situation, totally blind to what was going on. He could have interpreted the shock people expressed as a reaction to "Dr." Duke's extreme views on...nutrition.

        Even the hardline case against Jimmy is that, sure, he made some very bad decisions, being blinded by greed, and he should pay the price for that, but of course he's no racist. Not at all. He's even posted pictures of himself with black friends!

        Well, maybe, but...

        For whatever reason years ago I had an extreme interest in American racist groups. It was just bizarre to me that these people were living among us. I read whatever I could about the Klan in its various incarnations, the Christian Identity movement, The Turner Diaries, the Ruby Ridge standoff, and, yes, David Duke. So I have quite of bit of knowledge about these groups.

        One thing I think a lot of people don't understand is that these groups often claim to have no animosity toward non-white people. They say they simply think the races are too different and they should be separate. Put all white people in their own country, and they'll be much happier. Put all the black people in their country, and they'll also be happier. Everyone will be happier! (In case it's obvious, I do not subscribe to this view and think it's effectively a thin veneer over some really ugly ideas. More later on this.)

        Let's try an analogy: Say you went into a coma for a few years and woke up to find out that there was a widespread movement to integrate horses as full members of human society. Horses are everywhere! You go out to a restaurant, and horses are trying to eat off your plate, and they're not using the appropriate bathroom facilities, and so on.

        It's clear to you that this is a disaster and isn't working out well for horses or humans, so you become a big advocate for separating humans and horses, except for certain appropriate horse-human interactions.

        Now this doesn't mean you hate horses. Even though you want the horses back on the farms, you may still enjoy spending some time with horses you come across. You might pet a horse or feed a horse or even pose for a picture with a horse and put it on your blog.

        Back to the actual situation at hand, I think it's quite possible for Jimmy to agree with or at least have some sympathy for David Duke's views. Jimmy not fleeing in horror or attacking every nonwhite person he comes across doesn't prove otherwise.

        fiero-flash said...

        Part 2 of 2:

        A lot of racists believe they are devout Christians and that in fact their beliefs stem from the Bible. They say the Bible says God made the separate races and it's some kind of sin to mix and thus dilute what God created. They believe the mark of Cain is skin color and is a sign that people with different colors of skin should respect that mark and stay separate. And much, much more, but you get the idea.

        Now, this is very speculative, but it's possible Jimmy agrees with or has sympathy for some of these views, that he has been a fan of David Duke, and that he visited Duke's site and saw nothing that was offensive to him. He agreed to go on his show, thinking it was kind of an "edgy" move but wouldn't ultimately be that big of a deal. He probably thought he could brush off any criticism by simply saying he's not one to shy away from controversy. He may have even been motivated by helping to mainstream Duke, to show people that he's still not a bad guy.

        The evidence for this is thin, but it's not nonexistant: Jimmy never really condemns Duke's views in his supposed apology, instead vaguely saying he does not agree with with Duke "on anything besides nutrition", which sounds strong, but in reality is nonsensical (they probably agree on the color of the sky, etc.). He persists in calling him "Dr. Duke". He added new links to Duke's site in his apology (though he later removed them). A lot of his apology was still in essence trying to argue it was OK to go on the show. He never expresses horror at finding out what a racist Duke was. He doesn't say it made him want to vomit. He somehow tries to claim this was a misunderstanding but never describes how he realized who this was and his reaction to that. It just doesn't hold together.

        Maybe it's just me, but if there was, to use Jimmy's words, a "big hullabaloo out there in the Paleo community about me being some kind of a racist, white supremacist, Jew-hating, KKK sympathizer", I'd feel compelled to clearly state that I am none of those things. I know you can get into the trap of giving ideas some plausibility by even acknowledging them, so sometimes it's not worth even addressing some charges to deny them, but with that quote Jimmy has already crossed that bridge!

        ALL of Jimmy's initial reaction ("yep") indicated he knew full well what Duke stood for and he thought going on his show was a bold move on his part. If Jimmy is in a bubble, it's not a bubble where he never heard of David Duke. It's a bubble where he doesn't realize just how far beyond the pale Duke's ideas are to most people.

        So is Jimmy a racist? I don't know. Probably most people who go on David Duke's show are. Probably most people who link to Duke's site are. Non-racists that somehow are tricked would tend to be horrified when they discover what happened. Jimmy's reaction seems to have been nothing like that. So who knows?

        Getting back to how many racists think, just to be clear I do not find their "separation is best for all races" argument to be anything more than a mask over their hateful ideas. When you start probing into why they think, say, white and black people should live apart, you start hearing things like black people aren't as intelligent so it's stressful for them to try to compete with white people. You'll hear that black people are much more prone to crime and less bothered by it. And so on. So basically the same ugly, racist crap dressed up in fancy, sunny, "this will make everyone happier!" clothing.

        Harry's Acolyte said...

        Dude who tweeted to Jimmy pretty much spelled it out with the "#KKK" and other stuff he told Jimmy about. Jimmy told the guy to quit stalking him, or whatever it was.

        He was basically given notice that people knew what he'd done and that it was reprehensible, and Jimmy said that he did it and he doesn't care what Duke's "other" beliefs are.

        Emily Deans said...

        I wrote a book for Harper Collins back in 2003-4 and it was published by 2006 (I think! Paperback came out the following year). My co-author even went on Good Morning America. Back then the internet promotion was not quite as huge, but my co-author did several radio interviews, and I did some sort of online thing with Gather (a group site of some kind). I was approached by several other people, but given my clinical schedule, I didn't do much promotion myself. However, there wasn't much vetting that I was aware of by the publishing companies or my agents. The editors were extremely busy and had a ton of projects, ours was one more little pebble to throw out in the world.

        I certainly don't have any extra cash for lawyers, and I can see how if I ended up on a crazy podcast, I might just wish it would sink to the bottom depths of the internet and never be discussed, much less promote it myself, even with a disavowal. Were it discovered I would probably say somethig along the lines of what McGuff said.

        Actually, I was duped (more or less…perhaps that is putting it too strongly, you can judge) onto a podcast last year or so. Armi Legge (16 at the time) approached me to go on his superman radio or superhuman radio or whatever it was. He told me he was a triathalete and student biohacker (or something) and he wanted to share my ideas. I checked out his website, and it seemed legit, and I thought it would be cool to reach a younger audience about food and the importance of good nutrition. However, a day or two before the podcast, Armi let me know that his boss, the Bulletproof Exec, was going to be there as well. I was a bit annoyed at the last minute change, but I was completely swamped and didn't really google BP Exec until just before the call. Turns out (I think) between Armi contacting me and the podcast happening, Armi and BP Exec joined forces. I did the interview. I'm not the keenest person about "biohacking" and buttery coffee that goes on over at BP Exec but at the same time, hey, at least it wasn't Zionist conspiracy KKK garbage either. So I let it slide and, to some extent, let it be a lesson to me, and I don't think the actual interview was in any way bad. I just might not have agreed to a straight up interview with BP Exec, though he seems like a nice enough guy, it just wasn't the podcast I had initially agreed to, which is much more my speed.

        I'm just about Jimmy's age, but being from Texas, you can bet I know who David Duke is. I wish Jimmy had taken the tack that McGuff did, but it's Jimmy's life and podcast, not mine. Personally, I think saying that when McGuff found out, he wanted to puke, and apologizing to wife, family, etc. is a big admission of disgust and regret. About as strong an admission as you can get. Getting dug into a legal war with the neo-Nazis when you are trying to squash any publicity for the podcast on the enormous internet seems like a net negative, expensive proposition to me.

        I'm just telling my little story because it can be easier to be "duped" than you might think, and not all of us physicians with big publishing house books have a whole team of people protecting our interests.

        Emily Deans said...

        (and before an "on the record" post comes out, yes, I have changed some of my thoughts about nutrition since 2004, when I wrote a nutrition chapter for that book, which is mostly about coping with health anxiety)

        ed97c34e-52aa-11e2-9425-000bcdcb471e said...

        Thanks for providing this insight. I agree with you about both the lack of ability to vet due to time/busy schedules and about lawyers. I think this is a much more realistic way of looking at it than assuming these guys want to/should spend more of their already limited time and money on this. I think Duke takes advantage of the lack of time spend on vetting, the PR industry is very fast paced and streamlined. Probably pretty easy to hack, at least for a short time.

        Diana said...

        "Now, this is very speculative, but it's possible Jimmy agrees with or has sympathy for some of these views, that he has been a fan of David Duke, and that he visited Duke's site and saw nothing that was offensive to him."

        I'm not at all comfortable with such speculation. Not at all.

        What's on the record is bad enough.

        No need to embroider, speculate, or amplify.

        JMO.

        Zbig said...

        this David Duke is not popular outside the US,
        for foreign readers to help calibrate our "devices", where is he on a scale where -10 is Osama and +10 is Obama?

        and for comparison, where would OJ Simpson place?

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        I think you are capable of researching the topic and drawing your own conclusions. Searchin on his name and terms like neo-Nazi, holocaust denial, white supremacy should do you well.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        I am conflicted here. You see, I think that the aftermath and comparisons with the Kimkins episode are "easier" for the community and those considering "doing business" with Jimmy Moore moving forward because there is no need for them to even "go there" as to where this man's sympathies lie.

        And then I read the latest comment on his non-apology blamefest and it aggravates me that he's hiding behind his Christianity and claiming that his critics are impugning the religion. The truth there couldn't be further from the truth as I believe Duke's ideology is antithetical to that of the vast vast majority of Christians.

        Then I read posts such as yours and I'm shaking my head in agreement that he shouldn't be let off the hook for the appearance. For the doctors, it is a bit of a tougher call, but the live nature of Jimmy's interview make it almost impossible for him to disassociate completely.

        I believe this is the paleo community's "out" from the Jimmy Moore infringement. Whether or not they take it, will be a benchmark moving forward as to what is important.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        Yeah, and let's not forget the Zucker message on Dec12 from Facebook. Jimmy cannot claim he didn't know about that, he just ignored it. And long before the non-apology he made it perfectly clear to not one but two commenters on his blog, the second of which was the Diana who posts here and specifically informed him Duke was a neo-Nazi. His response was that he didn't care what his other beliefs were. So at the very least we know Jimmy is hopelessly intwined in spreading low carb like some religious cult. Matters not who he associates with or spreads the message to so long as he grows his fan ba$e.

        Zbig said...

        I could learn facts but not the emotional or cultural nuances.
        E.g. I know about KKK from movies showing 1800s (very bad stuff) and then from Freakonomics (stupid and ridiculous rituals of adult boys) and when I hear now "former grand wizard" then I don't know what to think about it in the 21 century - is the guy a "nonperson" because it's serious? or because it's not serious?

        I more or less know the story of OJ, I suspect on my scale he would be in the negative zone, just curious where DD is in comparison.

        Chris said...

        I think I have to agree with Emily on this one. Doug McGuff is a good guy judging from the interactions I've had with him over a good few years. As a point of correction his gym is called Ultimate Exercise, not Ultimate Science.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...
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        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        One cannot compare OJ and DD -- one is a multi cold-blooded murderer, the other a notorious fomenter of interracial hatred. But yeah, if OJ starts a nutrition blog when (if?) he gets out of prison for unrelated offenses alongside another hypothetical business crusading about the Zionist global forensic conspiracy that is DNA testing? And Jimmy Moore found out OJ went LC/paleo and went on his radio show where OJ discussed his views on DNA testing conspiracies (leaving out the Zionist of course), I'd say that would be on the scale of David Duke and what we're talking about here. Not a perfect analogy, but ...

        Duke apparently has moved his "business" to Austria and spreading anti-semetism where the message finds a more receptive -- in certain quarters -- audience. A message he can get out w/o the Zionist media keeping him down like they did here in the US. (sarcasm there)

        Jimmy Moore knew who and what this guy was all about. His initial (now deleted but forever preserved) responses and the later non-apology only make that all the more clear.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        Thanks for the correction Chris. I'll be traveling today and want to respond to this when I have a decent amount of time to make sure I touch all bases.

        Lighthouse keeper said...

        Evelyn, Duke under Austrian law would not be able to practice holocaust denialism in anyway whatsoever, the notorious british revisionist historian David Irving had an arrest warrant taken out on him by the Austrian authorities for holocaust denialism in the 90's and was sentenced to three years imprisonment for it in Vienna a few years ago. It would be interesting to know under what parameters his "business" operated there.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        I got that info from here: http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/12/04/3090552/david-duke-arrested-at-german-neo-nazi-event
        Perhaps he moved to Russia and is roomies with Depardieu ;)

        In other news, Jimmy is looking for a roomie for PaleoFX -- paging David Duke!

        Lighthouse keeper said...

        If that comes off let's hope the chambermaid remembers two extra pillow cases { for ceremonial purposes }. A Jest by the way!

        Galina L. said...

        Jimmy seems to be lucky. So far it looks like no one besides three female bloggers is paying attention on his troubles.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        >:)

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        His business has taken a hit already. No sponsors for Encore Week?! Unheard of!

        river rance said...

        Awesome! Hit 'em in the pocket book. Why would any legitimate company want to associate with him. Failed Low-Carb,Failed Low-Fat, soon to be a failed high fat. If one looks at him objectively he's a ball of confusion always trying to latch on to someone else's success. "Yep", "Yep", and for ever "Yep" that would be his Animal House knick name, not Flounder or Pinto but "Yep".

        A potential sponsor should read this and a couple other posts, as should Rob Wolf…still think he in it for the free cruise…cost him more than he'll know.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        More lies from Jimmy Moore: His current "bio" on thelivinlowcarbshow.com podcast page

        Jimmy Moore has been eating a high-fat, moderate protein, low-carb lifestyle for nine years and counting keeping off well over 160+ pounds and is healthier than ever before thanks to livin' la vida low-carb! Listen in for his incisive interviews of the leaders in the fields of Paleo fitness, low-carb nutritional research and real food advocacy.

        That has been changed from keeping off over 100 or 125 lbs that he updated sometime in 2011.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        Since I (and I doubt any of the other outspoken folks) didn't contact sponsors, I tend to think there is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes than we hear. I think the 2013 podcast lineup is quite telling. He's got through January booked and then it's alternating between the 2nd String Paleocarb Gang and OLD classics for Feb. Does he need a vacation again already??

        Galina L. said...

        Probably people indeed keep talking behind scenes. Besides feeling very negative about all nationalistic movements, I still think that story is just a stupidity case. However, it is also a big issue of trust and reputation.

        river rance said...

        How 'bout a real, permanent job at a department store working in customer complaints,good benefits,health ins,401, all the good stuff. Its a great place for liars, maybe comcast or time warner would be a good career choice also.

        Stephen Ferguson said...

        Yeah, like the 2013 podcast is full of B-string Paleo bloggers:

        www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/2013/01/34-dr-stephan-guyenet-obesity-and-the-metabolic-syndrome-how-do-they-develop-and-why-are-they-so-hard-to-reverse

        Storm in your teacup. No-one else gives a shit.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        His appearance was no doubt arranged well prior to this. I'm sure he and the other handful of Jan guests are in a bit of a bind as to what to do. I will still think less of those who choose to appear because there is no contractual obligation to do so. That is just my opinion that I'm entitled to and I'll blog about it as often as I like.

        If nobody else gives a shit, that is too bad. I think they do. Stephan is not B-string (nor is he paleo, nor is he low carb). I suspect if he appears he will do so in order to set straight some of the misinformation out there in the low carb community and figure that is worth whatever credibility he throws Jimmy's way. I have no inside info on that, that is just my impression knowing what I do about Stephan. But I won't count it a positive feather in his cap.

        Galina L. said...

        Many people hate conflicts.

        Beth@WeightMaven said...

        I think people are also willing to cut folks a lot of slack if they either 1) like or respect the person otherwise and/or 2) think that there but for the grace of God go I.

        As that wise sage Ricky Nelson said, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself.

        Stephen Ferguson said...

        Maybe you were right on the Guyenet thing - word on the street is that his appearance is "delayed" for a few months. You heard it first here.

        I stand corrected.

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        I hear you Beth. There's a lot of "incestry" in this community and I more than recognize that it is impossible to please everyone. This situation is a different line crossed. But unique to each individual and their particular circumstances.

        Diana said...

        Word on what street? Low Carb Dead End?

        Good for Stephan. I hope he considers that he cannot possibly gain by appearing on Jimmy's podcast. He's a potential star in the nutrition world. He should be careful whose company he keeps.

        And maybe he has a moral core too. Maybe he thinks that what Jimmy did was just plain wrong.

        Stephen Ferguson said...

        Jimmy told me via email...

        "I was scheduled to appear on Jimmy Moore's show "Ask the Low-Carb Experts" this Thursday. I don't consider myself a low-carb expert, but I do have expertise in obesity and metabolism, and Jimmy had invited me to discuss these topics on his show.

        Due to a confluence of events, I've decided that this is not the best time to do the show. I want to be clear that I don't intend this as a rebuke of Jimmy Moore or his show-- most of my reasons for postponing have nothing to do with Jimmy. Thanks for your understanding."


        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        Ahh. This explains a lot. Jimmy Moore is wasting time fielding questions from readers about his podcasts and C&P'ing Stephan's public blog post to them. Wow you got the inside behind da scenes sKKKoop!

        Stephen Ferguson said...

        No. I got an email from Jimmy last night - cos I'd asked Stephan a question that he was going to use.

        The quote is from Stephan's blog post. Jimmy didn't send that.

        Laurence Chalem said...

        I wrote a short note on Jimmy's blog about how appearing on David Dukes' site lent credibility to a known racist, and that pointing to other people's bad behavior, e.g., McGuff & Davis, does not mitigate one's own bad behavior. Jimmy replied to me personally in writing that he was sorry for lending credibility to the voice of racism and for being on the show. Jimmy has done so much good--and continues to do so--for the low-carb world. I have forgiven him and hope that, after your work is finished and you have moved on to other fruitful subjects, you will also be able to forgive and forget.

        Many thanks for all the work that you do & best wishes... - lc

        Evelyn aka CarbSane said...

        Forgiveness requires genuine acceptance of wrongdoing and contrition. Jimmy has compounded a mistake, if that is what it was (sorry, I am not required to believe him), with flagrant lies (there can be no doubt he is lying about how he came to go on Duke's show). Nothing new for him, unfortunately. Somewhere along the line, folks started using "he's done so much ..." as an excuse to tolerate any sort of behavior. Sad, IMO.

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