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Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!

“To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes even better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact”
~ Charles Darwin (it's evolutionary baybeee!)

Wednesday, July 17, 2013

Crying Wolf II


In a 12 point email* to Charles Grashow, dated April 1, 2013, Mark Sisson wrote:

Why discuss this now? Oh ... it probably should have been dealt with months ago, but somehow I expected this would have settled down by now and this wouldn't need to be aired. 

You see, Robb Wolf got mad at me for asking what the paleo diet that the Reno First Responders were counseled to consume actually entails. Or near as I can figure that's what first got under his skin. Either that or the fact that he couldn't then, and still can't now, take a solid position on carbohydrates in the paleo diet. Either way, he felt the need to lie on his website, in this comment:


Oh really.  On the night of Monday May 7, 2012 -- actually it was at like 1-2am the next day when I awoke feeling agitated, couldn't sleep and decided to check email and stuff on the internet -- I received an urgent email asking if I was behind the @shitkrusesays Twitter account.   I was later linked to the Channel 5 report and watched that.  In case there is any doubt, I was fingered as the supposed NY "ringleader" he insinuated the FBI would be contacting.  What does this have to do with Robb?  Well, without Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson and Jimmy Moore, there is no phenomenon known here at the Asylum as Leptin Man.  Jimmy gave him podcast air time, Mark allowed the mega forum thread on his "leptin reset" to flourish and gain recognition and followers and offered him a book deal, and Robb saw Jack Kruse Neurosurgeon! as the ambassador paleo needed to go mainstream.  He was that MD that the big boys lack.  A charismatic character at that, with a weight loss story even.  The total package.  So what if he couldn't complete a sentence without a typo, talked gibberish science, plagiarized and all manner of other things.   He wove the word paleo into it ...

I've not shared some of the emails from that night before, but when I'm flagrantly lied about in attempts to discredit me, and when Robb Wolf even makes a point to complain that I "self servingly" withheld the contents of private communications, all bets are off.   

Now for several days in the wake of all of this, Richard Nikoley capitalized for page hits galore and stoked the flames.  He threatened me, Melissa and Emily in a tweet and played dumb in his comments about whether or not I was named.  So here's Jack's email to Robb to set that record straight:


You see, Jack "drug" Robb into this, not me. His email also included his detailed account of events as written in a letter to Carnival. It is from that letter that I was made aware of Jack's stateroom number, and no it's NOT creepy that when I later learned of Jimmy's room number I looked up the two on Carnival's ship plan to see just how close/far they were from one another. You see, anyone even hearing his story should have had questions from the get go because this sort of thing just doesn't go down without other people on the ship hearing about it, let alone those on the same deck, same hallway ... five doors down.  You see, Jimmy Moore could have set the record straight.  He chose not to.

If there is any question about Jack involving Robb, here's a comment hewrote on FTA:



You want silencing, threats and otherwise?  Do you think Robb was unaware that others' lives were being impacted by his actions?  Yes, he had a new baby, but that is no excuse for not doing the right thing.  Emily Deans wrote to Robb:


In retrospect,  Robb's post on PaleoHacks is so typically self-serving and blame shifting.  Everyone else is an idiot in Robb's eyes, he can't own up one iota to his part in all of this and how much differently this could have turned out had he doused the flames as well.   No ... must protect the movement.  Who cares what that puts someone like me through, I probably deserve it anyway for putting a $ in Gary Taubes' name a couple few times years ago.  Sigh.  Let's revisit just a little of what Robb considers his all out effort at putting out fires:
When I first heard all this I was wondering if the story (Jack getting removed, bioterroer etc) was even true. Shortly it became apparent that yes, it was true. Jack texted me and said the FBI were involved, I replied “Nail their ass to the wall” because if I could get my hands on the @shitkrusesays and I had no legal recourse for my actions, it would not be pretty. This jack-ass has created a hell of a situation and ironically the Law of Unintended Consequences is having a laugh, at least initially at your expense. You landed Jack on the media, gave him a phenomenal story and an opportunity to curry support and favor.
Smart work asshole(s).
I seem to remember counseling against behavior like this, allowing attacks from anonymity, but that was ignored and someone pointed out I’ve changed my position on fish oil dosage, so everything I say should be held in contempt.
I then received an email with a link to the Kruse news piece. I tweeted it saying something to the effect “some folks have done some stupid shit.” I did this because…well, people have done stupid shit. This situation did not, as I just wrote above, materialize out of thin air. People who dislike Jack made all of this happen. If you do not see the accountability here you are a moron on par with the folks who do not see how training the Taliban against the Soviets might have had long term repercussions for us.
No, the situation did not materialize out of thin air.  People who "dislike Jack"?  I don't dislike him, though he was rather obnoxious on PH.  Being critical of someone's science has nothing to do with liking/disliking -- just as friendship should not be the barometer by which one assesses someone's qualifications or ideas/writings.  I'd say the bulk of Jack's critics liked him to some extent -- especially those who met him in person.  No, his critics didn't make anything happen.  It developed in part because of your, Robb's, inability to understand the problems with Jack, or your refusal to listen to what others were saying, and whatever gripping fear you have of the movement crumbling.  I can understand how someone who exaggerates their resume as much as Robb might be paralyzed by such fears ......

click to enlarge
image link
Now, going back to Mark's email to Charles, he used that term "cry wolf" twice and I wonder if he perhaps meant cry Wolf, even though I didn't do that either.  Even if the latter would still be inaccurate, that former accusation doesn't even make sense.  Perhaps Mark should put down the Grokuberry Tales and read the fable.   Mark was involved in one "what are we going to do about Jack" email ring that included Robb Wolf and Richard Nikoley.  You see, Kruse's antics with a stick of dynamite, not to mention bottles of wine, weren't enough.  Because, "Dude I'm a Neurosurgeon".  The Holy Trinity post of delusion ... nay.  Even the MRSA stunt wasn't enough for these people.  No, the sheer idiocy of Kruse's account of events on the cruiseship, that the caller was named Lance (which for those who don't know, as every one these folks did, Jack was obsessed with Lance Armstrong and this was just a bit too coincidental).  Nah ... not enough.  It took these geniuses until May 16 and the picture above to finally cut this guy loose.  Here's the pertinent parts of the email (image excised):

Why do I get the impression from that email that Robb was helping Jack post-Cruise for some time despite Emily Deans' assurances?   Somewhere in this man's muddled memory, he "remembers" me being the cause of his problems.  I wasn't.  It was his own doing.

Now, apparently Mark thinks I was sounding false alarms when Nikoley was calling me a moron see you next Tuesday every other opportunity.  Yeah, I was sounding false alarms when he used the word annihilate multiple times.  Well, let's see.  Kurt Harris put Mark and I in touch following Kruisegate, and we spent almost an hour and a half on the phone.  I've not even done the usual name dropping Nikoley is so fond of here about that, let alone discuss the content of that exchange.  We discussed a lot of things, not the least of which is that Mark's blog exists to sell shit.  And he put that almost that bluntly -- his blog/forum is not to help people.  I.T.  I.S.  T.O.  S.E.L.L.  B.O.O.K.S.  A.N.D.  S.U.P.P.L.E.M.E.N.T.S.  Oh, and apparently I would be surprised at how poor his supplement sales actually are.   He considered my criticisms of his to be fair and we laughed about his carbohydrate curve.  Mark asked me where I see myself, what my plans were, etc.   When a few months later newly "concerned" commenters used eerily familiar terminology in their advice, I knew the source.  You want to talk censorship?  Mark silenced the FitBomb and the Whole9 when they criticized Primal Fuel.  This dude is no angel and he stays out of things or gets involved only when there's something in it for him.

So let's see about my crying wolf and clear the air about a couple of tweets to/about Mark.  You see when it comes to censorship, threats and all of that, Nikoley is king.  I posted something about Robert Lustig that elicited yet another vulgar mention on FTA.  You see it would be OK if I were critical of anyone's crappy science so long as that anyone was a vegan or mainstream diet person.  Mark had mentioned speaking with Nikoley from time to time during our phone call.  So I reached out for his assistance when Nikoley was escalating the attacks.  


Here is Mark's response:


You see, Mark never did anything about the Jack situation.  Well he sort of took a no-position position, and linked to FTA in the process.  That is what he referred to in the aqua highlighted line above.  

From cruise ships to tweets to ice baths to supposedly hacked social media accounts, Dr. Jack Kruse the man is nothing if not controversial. But what about his ideas – do they have any merit? That’s what many of my readers have been wondering, along with how I feel about them. I’ve remained pretty silent on this matter, because Jack was doing his thing and apparently helping a lot of people in the process. I was doing mine and helping people in my own way. And all was well. Now, though, the questions are coming in droves, and I can’t really ignore them any longer.

Yeah, yeah.  All was well if you don't give a crap that you played a role in allowing Jack's threats and intimidation to persist by NOT speaking out.  It's the business and only the business folks.  I swear how these guys don't need daily massages to work out the kinks for patting themselves so hard on the back all the time escapes me.   It's also just a little humorous that in that email he states that he and Robb are not scientists when the linked post is yet another "Ask Mark" what he thinks about some science stuff.  But I digress ...  To repeat:
Meanwhile, I see we linked to his [Nikoley] site the other day on the JK post. I'll not be doing that anymore.
~ Mark Sisson, 5/24/12 
So, in the Twitter exchange a while back, that my stalker got all fussed over (too lazy to find the link, feel free to help me out in comments), when Mark weighed in on mine and Robb's altercation, I quipped that he might need a memory supplement.  I stand by that because apparently his word means nothing, especially if it is offered freely.  There was no change of heart on Mark's part as towards the end of July I received the email below:

He wanted to make sure to connect with me.  I never got a chance to respond to that email and I guess Mark read my announcement on the blog as I received the email below about two weeks later.


We exchanged two longer emails that are mostly irrelevant.  Then in September I sent him this short email:

You'll notice the link is to Nikoley's declaration of war and at that time Mark had a blogroll of sorts that still contained FTA.   I also sent out a BCC email to everyone I had in my contacts list asking if anyone could do anything.  Mostly, I wanted to make sure that everyone was aware of that declaration, which I want to remind folks was:
But here's the difference, see. Unlike those two, I don't lie. Accordingly, and as it is a "war," I go "nuclear and chemical-biological" early. I will make zero pretense at "objectivity." This is for the purpose of smear and annihilation in words and images, with no mercy. I have no intention of fact checking, caring a lick about context, posting a scintilla of extenuating or exculpatory evidence. I will be seeking as much dirt, as much that is unflattering, as much inside information that's likely to be taken in the wrong way as possible. And I won't let up until I'm satisfied, and I don't even have a standard for that. I'll know it when I see it.
I gave them chance after chance, apologized once, made many public statements of regret for going to far, and they just keep at it and keep at it.
Let me remind everyone that while he called off that war, he has remained active in his efforts.  Robb Wolf knew just who to run to for cover for his lies.   Nikoley has never done a thing to right the wrongs from that episode and beyond.  In fact he has stated many times that he has no intention to.  

I guess Mark just thought enough time had gone by ... in our last email he all but blamed me for Richard's behavior seeing as I bate him (how not blogging about someone is baiting is beyond me).   I sent him one more in November to alert him to content rip-off.  But come December, Richard did a review of Mark's new sauce book, and in exchange apparently, Mark Link Loved FTA for the potato diet nonsense.  At that point I wrote Mark off.  Contrary to accounts, I had no further contact with him save those Tweets.  

Now ... since Jaminet and Wolf and Sisson are again including Nikoley in their linkings and postings, he has crawled back ever so slightly through the door.  He provided and continues to provide cover for them.  Sadly, Angelo Coppola even interviewed Nikoley.  None of this should be happening.   Not because I say so or write about it or have been the victim of this man's hatred, but because his behavior should be unacceptable.  It is, and yet they act like it all never happened.  

The Paula Deen post was about that.  And I'll have a follow-up on the 2013 post David Duke scandal when time permits.  So now y'all have a little more information.  For some reason, the "leaders" of paleo seem to think they are exempted from the usual rules.   Credentials?  Lack or extensively inflating thereof?  No problem.   Linking to blogs with misogynistic, racial and religious bigotry?  No problem.  Linking to people who unabashedly threaten others?  No problem.  How about true stalkers?  How about joking about stalking?  No problem?  Go on the radio show of a white supremacist (knowingly), lying about it and linking to said white supremacist's blog?  No problem?   

For some reason ItstheWooo thought my post was about Praguestepchild over a conversation on his blog.  Eh ... I commented over there to clarify and challenge some of what Sean wrote about me (and subsequently other commenters).  No biggie.  I'm not theatening law suits though if things continue as they are that's not out of the scope of possible outcomes here.   The intent of Robb and others is to silence me.  Because he can't have anyone look too hard at his "science".  Quite the overreaction to a handful, if that, of minorly critical posts.  If your scientific ducks were in a row, then nothing I write here would change a thing.  But the reality is that the LC boat has been taking on water for a long time and is all but sunk.  Paleo is trending but those in the "movement" are doing their best to sink it as well.   IF it mainstreams, this stuff will come back to haunt those involved.  As one can see from the media reports of Krusegate, the media isn't much interested in vetting these days ....

I'm sure there's a "what to do about Evelyn" email ring or three going around.  If I do ever end up taking legal action, the webs reach far and wide and are intertwined.  If my pointing that out seems threatening to you then it's because you know you're contributing to what has been going on.  Sleep well.   But here's what's really sad about all of this.  That somehow you have to be "in" to express your opinion on the internet after all.   You just need a sponsor ...  But I guess once you're in, you need permission to break ranks on any issue.  It's amazing really that Emily Deans publicly delisted Paul Jaminet from her blogroll of "Like Minds".  As they hemmed and hawed over Jack, they only cared about the movement and their bottom lines.  Make no mistake about it.  They were happy that it was low carb and not paleo that was mentioned in news reports.  They were happy because the Harvard speaking engagement was never specified as AHS.  They were happy none of their names were used.  That was what mattered.  The collateral damage of an "expert" they were taken in by and promoted the shit out of didn't matter to them.  Obviously.  

But they didn't need the email ring and any official position.  They could have just stopped promoting him.  Think about that.  This doctor got up on a TEDx stage (TED has taken the video off the web) and claimed to have undergone elective abdominal surgery, w/o local anesthesia, after having smeared and injected himself with MRSA.  There are only two ways to interpret that claim:
  1. It was true in which case he most certainly broke laws and professional protocols and potentially endangered the lives of untold people ... or
  2. He lied.
I submit that either interpretation is sufficient to say "Jack, sorry man, but I can't be associated with you because this is too controversial.  Please understand."    Simple.  No formal rebuke needed.  He should have been quietly disinvited from speaking on the cruise, if for no other reason than you just don't potentially "carry" MRSA onto a cruise ship.  Andreas Eenfeldt, DOCTOR Andreas Eenfeldt expressed regret at not getting to meet Jack.  What WAS he thinking?  1 or 2 above?   If Jimmy Moore does the right thing (for a change) this never happens.  What was HE thinking?  1 or 2 above?  What did Robb think?  Mark?  By not at least formally (no fanfare needed) distancing themselves, they lent their stamp of approval.   He fooled countless people and took their money as a result of these paleo elite.  They don't seem to care.  They weren't interested in helping people if it didn't impact their bottom line favorably.


Oh ... and by the way, as I was writing this up, Jack Kruse may well have been cutting into a human being.  Yes. Different state.  Different practice.  Same Jack?  Would you want your loved one to be a patient?   You see the paleo elite love to "help" you and link you to valuable sources of information.  Like Dr. John "Jack" Kruse.  But what does it say about them when they can't admit they were wrong or put something or someone ahead of their profit motives just because it would be the right thing to do.

48 comments:

George said...

I am gobsmacked that Mark Sisson has nothing better to do with his time than address 12-point emails to Charles Grashow. Literally gobsmacked.
I know where Jack Kruse's cabin was located on that fateful cruise. It was - Back... and to the left. Back... and to the left. Back... and to the left.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

I hit "post" on my last comment (mostly about Nikoley(X)) just before you posted this.

Occurs to me the best way for X to distract/deflect negative attention: accuse others of X's behaviour.

Best way: get some rabid fanboi to do it in X's stead

Sanjeev Sharma said...

> somehow I expected this would have settled

Quickest way to drive yourself insane is to expect others to be sane.


Can't wait to see the Nikoley sock puppet again, hopefully he'll escalate even more, maybe even a drunk psychotic breakdown.

Victor Venema said...

According to Alexa traffic statistics, the declaration of war, seem to be the last straw that broke the back of the free animal. Since then Nickoley' readership has plummeted below the ranked Alexa is able to measure. Alexa statistics are not too reliable, but at least it fits to me stopping reading that blog in disgust.

Jason Sandeman said...

The thing is:
Richard AKA FTA : Boring, one-dimensional "I'm loud and just learned how to string 4 letter words together in a vain effort to browbeat you with circular logic to hammer my point across "
Jaminet - boring, kinda out there. Wishy washy depending on what could line his pockets. Guess what, his book isn't torrented. Know why? No one cares.
Jimmy - boring, one dimensional "aww shucks, that's Jimmy" (because being the town clown is something to strive for.) it's sad that side show has been able to make money all this time.
Robb Wolf - would be okay if he toned down the ego a bit. It's okay to blog with authority, but not with arrogance. Plus, he has a book to sell see?
And... SISSON. I liked him. He seemed like, genuine.
It's hard for me to believe what he has done (without seeing the exchange myself) The thing is I had that niggle feeling deep down before about this.
I did a round of P90x so I got to see Sisson mug every day hawking the Beach body formulas. I guess that was the problem with seeing primal fuel etc.
I have the books (and they are heavily torrented which tells you they are popular!) and going through them there is a fairy tale.
A story about Grok. How he ate and had this simple life. Except apparently he was missing the 21 day manuals, workbooks, primal fuel, coconut madness, supplements.
It's not long before you are saying holy shit. I'm being suckered.
But then Friday rolls along, and you see another "success" story.

I might mention I got into a row with Robb Wolf over a "success ' story about a type 1 diabetic that went paleo and completely stopped her meds and insulin.
I called her out and Robb because in my mind, they have no business having a success story like that because us diabetics already have enough confusion around how to treat our disease. I got the" diabetic hand wringing" comment from Robb and I knew he was a salesman, a know-it-all jackass, and a dangerous person "helping" people.
http://robbwolf.com/2011/08/15/its-actually-become-a-way-of-life-controlling-type-1-diabetes-with-paleo/

Kruse - I knew he was a jackass from the go. He told me in comments once that he cured diabetes with a spinal adjustment on Nikoly' s blog. I called him out on it and the rest laid into me. Point is, he still looked like a jackass.

My point of all this is, they are all shyster, snake oil shilling losers. I'm sure between all of them they have a heart, but as all of them are fond of saying,

"follow the money! "

I like the science on your blog, I like the debunking of bullshit. Not too fussy on the personal side with these guys.

They obviously have a scheme, so play smarter than them. Continue to call them out, and if they continue to squawk, you know you've touched a nerve.

Who I like? Go kaleo. Amber is awesome.

Finally, that disturbed woman who is piece by piece dismantling this blog is a few screws loose. To think, Richard is the one who gives her the most attention, right?

Perhaps the money is really on the dresser. If the shoe fits...

Jason Sandeman said...

http://freetheanimal.com/2012/01/menace-to-society-north-carolina-board-of-dieteticsnutrition-ncbdn.html

Forgot to link my first meeting with Kruse.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

thanks for the update Jason, good to see you looking well.

Enjoy your site, will check out more.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Hi Jason,



I remember that thread, as it contained your comment about how eating more carbohydrate lowered your blood glucose & insulin requirements.

Things went downhill with Steve Cooksey about here http://freetheanimal.com/2012/01/menace-to-society-north-carolina-board-of-dieteticsnutrition-ncbdn.html#comment-949785031 (the post link is in the post date)

Things went downhill with Jack Kruse about here http://freetheanimal.com/2012/01/menace-to-society-north-carolina-board-of-dieteticsnutrition-ncbdn.html#comment-949784945


Cheers, Nige

Victor Venema said...

Hopefully, now the image with the FTA traffic rank from Alexa does work.

Simon Carter said...

Hi Evelyn,

Charles claimed that Mark Sisson said of you:

"In my opinion, Ev is a sad sociopath who spends her days trying to prove scientifically why her sloth and lack of diet discipline are not the cause of her weight-loss failures. I honestly have a measure of empathy for her. It must suck to have so much information and then to have to beat oneself up daily for failing to use that info. Since she can’t prove this “fact” scientifically, her fallback position is to try to tear down the work of others."



I haven't been staying up to date on the soap opera that all this has become, but did you confirm that Mark actually wrote this?

carbsane said...

It's too bad the paleo powers that be don't realize it.

carbsane said...

RN's behavior and a few others is to be expected. I didn't expect the out right lying and smears by so-called upstanding leaders of the community.

Simon Carter said...

Mark Sisson is a very smart business man. He had to know that Charles would put his email out all over the internet. It's all about traffic and getting more eyeballs on his site.

carbsane said...

Yes Simon, I have confirmed by multiple channels that the email was written by Mark, and Robb Wolf seems to have discussed it with Mark as well. I shall be discussing it as time permits because I am tired of having lies spread about me.

Adam said...

"trying to prove scientifically why her sloth and lack of diet discipline
are not the cause of her weight-loss failures. I honestly have a
measure of empathy for her. It must suck to have so much information and
then to have to beat oneself up daily for failing to use that info"


Such a statement disturbs me... why does everything involving weight loss involve moralistic undertones? "Oh she's just weak willed and it's her fault. Obesity is just a problem of will. No wait, it's the evil carbohydrates/fats/something else so let me sell you a book telling you the Secret*"


It seems pretty clear by now that obesity is a multifaceted problem and for most people the commons methods will not work. In such a case discussion of weight should not be moralistic but rather focusing on small life-style changes an individual can undergo to reduce fat mass.


I actually cannot give one iota about the drama (It makes my blood boil thinking about the stupidity of having such a debate in the first place. This entire drama is just people posturing for better positions in the marketing social game.) but the moralizing in that email is just...too much.

Jason Sandeman said...

Thanks for that Nigel.

After that whole fiasco, I emailed Big Dick. He told me we were cool. Then I realized for good it was all an act.

It's not really there to help anyone, it's more of a sideshow to drive the whole "movement" or whatever they are calling it.

You've these people "claiming" to be "helping" people, but it's Internet Marketing 101. If there is one thing in life that I hate, it's fake people.

For example: Robb Wolf hawks his books, and makes an affiliate off his "recommended products." If paleo was the answer, then why do we need supplements?



The whole scene has gotten pretty boring fast. As it picks up momentum it loses what attracted me in the first place; simple eating for health.


Now that we have lost grains, we are making substitutes that are even harder to make than what we are substituting. Instead of rice, now we need to grate cauliflower and make it like the rice. Except it's not the same, not even close.


Instead of flour for pancakes, now we're using almond meal. Costs 10 times as much, and is just as processed as the flour we are trying to replace.


I have no problem taking those "offending" foods out of my life, but the science spewed just don't support their silly claims. They are all over the map with what is healthy.


More disconcerting to me is the idea of "consolidating" the different movements into one, as if this was the WWE and we were taking over the different wrestling territories.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

My diet is based on meats, offal & veggies with a bit of seasoning for flavour & cooked in a Pyrex casserole dish in the microwave (don't shoot me, lol!). There's minimal washing-up. I eat other bits & bobs.

I follow Go Kaleo on FB & Twitter. I'll never be as active as her, but I love the way she inspires people. Eat da food, already!

Jason Sandeman said...

Eyes on my own plate. Hey, I have a microwave too. I'll make broccoli in it with my Cambro containers because let's face it - steaming is the preferred method, but I don't want to waste a bunch of water and heat. 3 minutes in a covered container, it's ready to roll.
I'm experimenting with sourdough right now. It's elusive, but very cool!

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Did you know that you can now edit your own posts as many times as you like until you get it right!

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I know who Charles Grashow is, so I'm not gobsmacked.

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

Interesting. I'd guess that was mainly from women deserting his blog, then lots of men deserting the resulting frathouse environment? The few times I'd been there, I'd also see some women talking about how fun and cool it was that the critics of Paleo were being called sleazy names. But then they didn't enjoy it so much when things progressed and they themselves became targets in the free for all.

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

The untutored masses think that saying "in my opinion" insulates them from defamation liability. That is patently incorrect. The standard is whether any statement refers to a provable fact. Here is the blatant example that's typically used: no one can say, "In my opinion, you are a child molester" and expect to get away with that merely because of the qualifier. Lots of people have found out the opposite, to their regret.

Regarding his statement, the test would be whether it would be deemed to be hyperbole, or conversely whether it was meant to be an accusation of having a specific mental illness. If the latter, then that would be considered libelous and probably also injurious per se to the career of the victim.

If the statement were made in a "private" email, then that limits the scope of the audience to which the victim is defamed. But as Simon points out, there is a very reasonable claim to make that the author of the statement knew (or reasonably should have known) that the statement would be made public.

If it were me I might make a public demand for a retraction. However, blanket demands for takedowns/retractions don't generally carry much weight and don't usually get taken seriously. A proper demand is constructed almost as much in detail as the civil complaint that will eventually be filed if there is no compliance.


There also seems to be developing some group liability, with several of these Paleos possibly acting in concert. The sum of the parts might be judged to be more liable than any individual statement. It's also relevant that some of the Paleos could readily be judged to be using defamation in their own economic interests, which takes things well beyond just an internet spat.

carbsane said...

Yes, group liability is becoming more of a possibility here. There are numerous clear violations of the law and even my critics know that "not too bright" is not an accurate description of me. I wonder if sustained carbohydrate deprivation does something to the critical thinking processes of the brain. It is really the only "innocent" explanation.

carbsane said...

This is why I allow it to be published and will reprint it despite it's nasty nature vis a vis me. It doesn't hurt me on a personal level. It shows Mark Sisson for the judgmental man that he is. His Primal Bul ... er Blueprint is a farce. He looks at any person who is overweight and assumes they are gluttons and/or sloths in the most judgmental terms.

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

When was Nikoley's "I will defame you with lies"? Tolling begins upon publication. The statute of limitations is short at only 1 year in CA. I don't recall the fed limit. However, his public statements declaring his malicious intent at that time might very well be admissible in any action over subsequent defamations. I wouldn't even be surprised if third parties could also use those statements. along with any bragging by him about alcohol use. Hopefully, people have been archiving his blog articles so that he can't just delete them and claim the statements never existed.


Even screen captures from relatively disinterested multiple parties, accompanied with an affidavit, might be acceptable though they are not ideal.



Then again, I can imagine his webmaster receiving interrogatories during discovery that require him under oath to reveal what has been deleted.

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

Imagine Nikoley in court, and that plaintiff's counsel has found a way to introduce all of Nikoley's "c-word" rantings. Now imagine the jury, trying to decide which side to believe in any unclear areas, and naturally using character as an indication of veracity. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, has he also has posted that "everybody lies", as if that is a normal and natural way to live all of life?

carbsane said...

Everything has been saved. And the appropriate authorities can get access to deleted stuff.

carbsane said...

I think shrewd is a better adjective.

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

Criminal defamation proceedings are very rare. But the nightmare for possible defendants would be a fed prosecutor who wants to get involved in internet law for the furtherance of their own career. This has already happened, as in the case of the teenage suicide.

However, having multiple defendants who have openly bragged about their deep pockets would pique some interest in a civil atty. Fed filing fee is only $350, about $100 more than most states'. I'm not familiar with any per motion fees.

Nikoley even shot himself in the foot so bad with his self-proclaimed malice that he would be laughed at if he ever tried to file an anti-SLAPP motion. (CA has the very best anti-SLAPP law in the country. But there is no fed anti-SLAPP.)

Don't forget that Nikoley is not using the standard hosting, so he might have total control over his server. Once a writ of summons is served, it would be a crime for him to delete anything. However, deleting anything with the specific intent of destroying evidence might also be illegal even before that. There are also computer forensic companies that can find just about anything, and also detect efforts to destroy evidence. The losing defendant who lied about not making deletions would pay those costs, too. A webmaster who lied would also be subject to sanctions. Most judges get personally angry when people lie to them.

Sanjeev Sharma said...

A question that will never be answered but must be asked


did Kruse post the picture BECAUSE he thought he had the paleos in his back pocket?

carbsane said...

There's got to be some Latin term for carelessness when one feels invincible

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

Nope, it's Greek: hubris

Sanjeev Sharma said...

yes, and also suicide by echo chamber

Lighthouse Keeper said...

Good point in the middle there regarding the paleo/low carb guru's altruism. Old chinese saying ( Confucius ) .... " Those who profit from their good deeds are the thieves of virtue "

Sanjeev Sharma said...

The way they all turned on Kruse: who remembers the elevator scene from "the Departed"?


Four head shots in 20 seconds.



As pertains to this coterie and these past actions - ancient history or prologue/foreshadowing?

Gene said...

Yeah, it's certainly not leveled at you specifically because you've publicly admitted an inability to stick to a diet of just about any kind for any reasonable period of time, eh?

carbsane said...

What I said in my interview with Moore is that I don't do well with structured plans for the long run. Why should any of us be on a diet ever? Seriously, if you aren't just snarking here. If one eats PB then we should all be lean. How about LC? Same claim. There are people (you never hear about them on pro-paleo/LC sites) who actually gain weight on such diets.


During our phone conversation Mark and I discussed weight and plateaus etc. This comment of his is inconsistent with that conversation.

carbsane said...

Rob made a mistake in getting overly upset about a post in which he wasn't even named ... back in December some time. I'm just guessing here, but I think that before the KKK thing Robb and Jimmy had a plan in place whereby Robb would back out of the cruise at the last minute so as not to tank the already low interest/registration. He kinda intimated as such and I have no idea what he was thinking about lying about our email exchanges.

Mostly these posts are to air the truth. I am tired of being lied about.

The diabetes link is interesting. Robb is ultra sensitive because he has ZERO formal knowledge or expertise and has apparently done very little to educate himself on pretty much every topic he claims to be an expert on with scientific literature. Gary Taubes and even Mat Lalonde are not sources of information. At a minimum, these experts should be able to cite PRIMARY sources.

Oh, and I finally figured out "torrented" LOL. Paul has moved on to PHD nutritional retreats. Mark&Robb are now doing luxury retreats together (so paleo/primal!) . I was fooled by Paul and didn't do my own due diligence in reviewing his book and relying on his blog and how PHD worked out for me (due to my low metabolic rate at the time, PHD worked out almost isocaloric P/C/F - maybe 30/30/40 for me as I tended to higher end protein. I also read it in bits-and-pieces the first time in a distracted state. Too bad because the problems with the book were picked up on back then it just got late-in-the-day of the original self-publish to review it. I had hoped the mainstreamed version would fix those issues but no dice. Contrary to what many believe, it, much like Bailor's Smarter Science of Slim, contains "science" that actually refutes the concepts put forth rather than supports them. Mostly with Paul, I didn't make the budget cuts in his Relationship Economics. He too seems to think that free speech is for everyone but me because how dare I simply convey to my readers that my email exchange with him regarding Jimmy Moore, David Duke and linking to the Mangan blog left a bad taste in my mouth. They did.

Simon Carter said...

"Why should any of us be on a diet ever?" I'm dazed and confused by your comment, did you mean for ever?

Simon Carter said...

Hi Myron, I am one of your "untutored masses", you appear to be an attorney. Are you seriously suggesting that Evelyn could try to sue Nikoley for the despicable things he has said about her and not get laughed out of any court in the US. Don't we have something called freedom of speech that even applies to a pathetic attention seeking drunk like Nikoley?

carbsane said...

Sigh. I knew I should have thought that wording out better. What is "going on a diet" vs. how a person eats? That was what I was getting at.

I will repeat that my "public record statement" refers to rigid calorie counting, meal planning and all that jazz. I can do that for a while, but it's just not a fit for me. I might add, most LC'ers and paleo types are also poor at this which is why such plans are attractive and work -- for a while. But the long term track record is no better. I also discussed in my podcast how the last time I lost a lot of weight before LC it was an ad libitum plan while I was training for a sprint tri, ELMM worked. Maintained that pretty well for a while though that level of activity didn't fit into my work schedule and it was rougher.

Since I'm expanding my remarks here, I would say that my diet for like 3 years would fit well into Mark's PB with about a 90/10% split ... is that demonstration enough for you Gene of sticking to a diet? Mark aims for 80/20. Heck, if you go PHD, the diet book Sisson wrote a forward for, you could up me to 95/5% without even trying. I've stuck to my diet for forever now because I do not diet.

Now some presume to know more about me than they do and how much I should weigh or what I should eat. That's sanctimonious BS. When I ate VLC for weight loss it worked because I had a sustainable non-diet mentality that included not believing in the nonsense theories about LC. Of course 100 lbs only means something if you're of like minds with Mark and Jimmy, right?

BTW, Mark laughed at Jimmy when we chatted on the phone. Who here is surprised?

Sanjeev Sharma said...

a few minutes with our friend Mr. Google showed me plenty of people win libel and slander suits in the US. It may not be as bad as in the UK but it's not unheard of.

There ARE REASONS why concepts like "tolling" and are well known in legal circles - reasons why states have anti SLAPP laws.

There are reasons why a lot of people in public[0] insert "in my opinion" on everything they write, thinking they've been immunized against being sued

[0] and like a lot of knowledge that's public, they appear to be wrong.

carbsane said...

People "change" when we get to know each other!

carbsane said...

Dang I wish one could search comments. If I put Tsimblist here, maybe he'll come out of the shadows and share sourdough. I think Galina shared some stuff on this blog too.


I love sourdough, a good rye, and dark russian rye (it's kinda like pumpernickel but not the same).

Myron Schwarzennecker said...

Hi, Simon. "Freedom of speech" refers to the government not being able to ban or punish speech. As far as private civil suits, one citizen versus another, that depends on what was said. I don't really know the worst that Nikoley said.

As far as 'untutored masses," I was mainly thinking about how I get a kick over Nikoley bragging that he is the victor of many lawsuits against big companies with high-priced attys, while he goes pro se. Yet he never gave even one reference to a judgment or even a filing. Bluffing often works, I guess.

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