Jimmy Moore's Presentation at 2014 Reversing Diabetes Knowledge Summit

Hey folks ...

I don't have the time to blog on this today, but I wanted to post Jimmy Moore's interview in what I'm calling the 2014 Reversing Diabetes ^ Knowledge Summit.

This video (audio) will only be live at this link until 10am EST tomorrow morning.  Anyone who thinks I have been unfair or maligned Mr. Moore by spreading misinformation should listen to this.

UPDATED:  Read these posts about Jimmy's "reactive hypoglycemia"  You might find them enlightening.
Dealing With Possible Reactive Hypoglycemia--One Month Later
The LC Doc was ... drumroll ........ Dr. Eric Westman.
Post-Low-Carb Meal 5-Hour Glucose Tolerance Test Produces Rather Odd Results
That meal was like 1000 calories of several eggs, butter cheese and a Chick Fil A chicken breast.  ← the obvious culprit in his metabolic woes!!!

The above are from mid 2008.

Realize that everything -- EVERYTHING -- I have ever said about the man comes from his own "mouth".  His blog, FB, podcasts, etc.  And no, I don't follow him around, I subscribe to feeds and people send me stuff.  Just how all of his many fans keep up with him (or used to), and exactly how he and others know what I have said around he internet.   And it's what he has actually said, not what someone who hasn't really read or listened thinks he has.

He is -- as amazingly impossible as it is to believe -- considered an "expert", been given book deals, and international speaking engagements!  It's crazy, I know.  But this man's disinformation is dangerous.  He is not promoting a diet that has any sort of long term track record.

This video is full of lies.  From nothing else working (he lost 170 lbs in 1999 on a low fat diet), to no mention of massive weight swings since his 2004 weight loss, beginning at least in 2007, to not knowing his triglycerides before Atkins, to numerous health problems brought on by his diet and a failure to admit his cholesterol levels are astronomical.  Food quality didn't matter to him until 2011.

As you listen, keep in mind that the sanctimonious interviewer is a chiropractor.  If you listen to nothing else, listen to them go off on doctors at the 8:30 min mark.   Do you REALLY think that doctors who SPECIALIZE in treating diabetics know less than a chiropractor?  Than Jimmy Moore?  Than half the "holistic nutritionists" out there with certificates from unaccredited "colleges".  Or PhD's from defunct mail order companies?    Also realize that his wife is visibly less healthy as he gets her more and more involved in his crazy schemes.

Jimmy says he's thriving.  If prediabetic blood sugars w/o use of berberine, "nightmarish lipids" including LDL-C over 300, LDL-P over 3000, TC over 400, "mild risk" arterial flow, protein, mucus and crystals in his urine, high pH urine, reduced immunity, low T, accelerated aging, increasingly concentrated abdominal obesity, sarcopenia etc. is thriving, then he's your man.


charles grashow said…
Jimmy Moore diet (NOW) 85-12-3 (fat/protein/carb)

Jimmy Moore diet (2007) 60-30-10 (fat/protein/carb)
charles grashow said…
We need to throw him a pity party.


charles grashow said…

Diet Detective: What physical activity do you do to keep yourself in shape?

Jimmy:In addition to living a fairly active life (e.g., I park my car far away from the store that I shop at, I take the stairs at work, etc.), I also like to play basketball and volleyball at my church as well as daily workouts at my local YMCA on the elliptical machine. I can usually get in a good 45–60 minute workout while enjoying all the natural, stress–relieving endorphins that get released from doing so. If I knew exercising could be this pleasurable, then I would have been doing it a long time ago! Better late than never!
charles grashow said…

Jimmy Moore is one of the "stars" of the low-carb movement. In 2004 he followed Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution and took his weight from 410 down to 230 pounds.

In December 2007 he began to do resistance training. Long story short--in the process of building up strength and muscle mass, Jimmy gained 30 pounds and couldn't seem to get rid of it.

An Update (October 12, 2008)
Jimmy followed this regimen until the middle of August and took his weight down to about 255. He then joined Isabeau Miller's FitCamp for two weeks and began doing all sorts of vigorous exercise, which he has faithfully continued during the subsequent weeks. To avoid muscle weakness and exhaustion during workouts, Jimmy experimented with adding in healthy extra carbs. He also returned to eating his favorite low-carb products and began eating more often. Bottom line: On October 3 and again on October 11 Jimmy weighed in at 270 pounds.

SO - between 12/2007 and 8/2008 he lost a grand total of 5 lbs!!
In the following month and a half he gained 15 lbs!!
charles grashow said…
Now he's claiming a low weight of 213.


Over the past few years, I convinced myself that maybe I needed to get down a little further and I was able to be as low as 213 at one point. However, I felt awful at that weight, became very weak with no energy whatsoever and experienced an unhealthy obsession with reaching a contrived number on the scale. While I don't think people who are carrying around loads of extra body weight is a good idea, it's also not prudent to try to force weight loss where it is unnecessary just to reach an artificial and arbitrary "goal weight."
Kitty said…
I don't understand how the heck this man has anyone paying attention to him. On his blog he actually said that he tried eating just 1200 calories a day and gained weight. I call bullshit. And he has the cajones to beg for money televangelist-style (actually using the term "sow a financial seed").

How is the advice to "darn well better get as much fat as you can" with lean meat working out for him? He's fat (and still gaining), weak and looks at least 20 years older than he is. Who in the world is hoping for his results? I just don't get it.
Hello_I_Love_You said…
9:49: JM goes off on a doctor who advised his wife, Christine, to go easy on SAFA: "What right do you have, what qualifications do you have, what knowledge, what education do you have to give her that kind of advice?"

13:38 JM goes off again about reactive hypoglycemia and insulin resistance. He understands neither and neither does the chiropractor. This is so sad. He's out chasing after an imaginary dragon, thinking he is reactively hypoglycemic.

JM used to be worse. If you listen to some of his older interviews, he used to berate and run guests out of his show for criticizing Atkins. He's toned down his act considerably.
Sue Staltari said…
Jimmy Moore is a joke
carbsane said…
The RH is why I've edited in the links to his so-called reactive hypoglycemia. It was NOT RH.

I could not get over that part at 9:49 outburst.
River Rance said…
It's very likely in the near future, JM will be in a healthwise situation, where he will have to turn to some "clueless Board Certified Doctors" to actually save JM's life....it won"t be Lustig, or Wheat Belly, or the Eades, or even Dr.Swede. Nope it'll be a real doctor with real practical knowledge, that will save his life....I used to laugh at Jimmy Moore, cause I thought of him as a comedian or circus clown....now I sincerely, do feel badly for his wife and for Jimmy Moore.
NS said…
My oh my. The degree of buffoonery never ceases to shock. Is he really that hopelessly, incorrigibly stupid? Or is this "theater" rather about his enterprise aspirations?

"There is no such thing as a healthy whole grain." Gee, I guess somebody should mention that to the Okinawans. On the other hand, eating "fifteen packs of butter" with one meal is A-OK. Classic.

The phenomenon of JM is not really different on many levels from the phenomenon of established religion. Your blog, despite your best efforts will not convince or persuade anyone from falling off the cliff in his "keto church" other than those who are already inclined not to fall. You cannot save stupidity.

This will end badly for JM, probably sooner than later.
Wuchtamsel said…
Yes, I've mentioned that several times before. There are many parallels to religion, creationism and so on. A terrible case of "group-think".
rudyInLA said…
We don't know if he's doing that now or has done it in the past. He sure measures a lot of stuff for a guy who keeps intimidating he doesn't care about numbers. As far as his diet and health......well....I defy anyone, even him to say what that is! What HASN'T this guy tried? How dishonest is readers and even yourself when you have to pretend that wolfing down a bunch of regular pizza slices is an experiment? JUST ADMIT YOU WANTED A FREAKIN' PIZZA! Then to obsess over what it DID to you and start calling doctors......that's not nuts? This man has no diet and is tiall say he doesn't eat what he tells his sycophants to eat. Yeah...up your protein and take creating for weight lifting. Sure....just like Arnold Schwarzenegger did. These undated posts of his make even more confusing as he seems to recycle abandoned eating plans. I guess he makes a living at this and maybe even a good living. As far as getting book deals, well my understanding is you can sell a LOT of books and literally get less than $10. The deal is all handled up front. Heaven knows what it's like to read one of these extended JM Mein Kampf tomes. His attitude is...hmmmmmm I eat massive quantities of food and my pancreas seems to be doing it's job! Uh Oh! He upped his carbs "as an experiment." Uh huh. Strange....the more balanced my diet is the better I react! What an idiot. I used to try and cut the guy some slack and whether he'h a crook or just stupid or just desperately delusional really is unclear, but he's definitely got a lot of dopey ideas that come from a very disordered frightened mind.
carbsane said…
I'm not trying to save the indoctrinated, but as this seminar and SO many others illustrate, the "Jimmy" people meet today is not the real Jimmy. It is my hope that, as with some of the others, folks looking for answers today don't follow his lead without the facts. I cannot think of a single long term low carber that exudes good health. Can you?
rudyInLA said…
Just walk up to someone you know and say this:

3. I must eat an egg no later than 30 minutes after waking.
4. The egg meals ideally should be eaten every 3 hours, but not more than every 5 hours.
5. I will follow this schedule even if I’m not hungry (I’ll have 1 egg when that happens).

I'm curious what their reaction would be. That's almost worthy of a Dr. Seuss book. Hey...he's DOCTOR Seuss after all right?
carbsane said…
It's a shame he took down the menus blog but I can understand why. The pizza thing was something like 17 slices -- but they were small. I am not sure I believe the BG went down except if he measured it at like 10 minutes. The other time he stopped measuring because it was time to eat again!

The books just boggle the mind. Self publishing is one thing. Victory Belt seems to publish any old thing. Cholesterol Clarity didn't do very well but I guess well enough. KC will flop b/c there really aren't that many people interested in that.
MacSmiley said…
Anyone know how tall JM is?
MacSmiley said…
I assume he and his wife visiting the doctor for a reason? Or was it a routine check-up?
carbsane said…
I believe she has insurance and goes semi regularly. She has some health issues from what I can gather.
carbsane said…
6'2" or 3"
NS said…
Well, I guess that would depend on the definition of "long term." :)) Dr. Bernstein. perhaps?

Yes, I know your intentions are admirable and I think your efforts elevate the level of the dialogue. Unfortunately, many of those "folks looking for answers" won't be able to do anything except "follow his lead." They will do so because that is who they are; their intellectual constitutions already guarantee that they will accommodate, embrace, and ultimately praise the promulgations of a salesman who criticizes the "science" in government nutrition policy and conventional medical practice and then goes to church to among other things denounce evolution. This theater, in its entirety, is largely, a matter of a fait accompli.

That said, I do think that there is a place for healthy semi low carb/paleo. Basing one's food pyramid on fruits and vegetables instead of fat is a good start. I reversed my own T2D on a high-raw regimen which included plenty of apples and grapefruit. Don't tell Dr. Bernstein!
NS said…
I would rather call it "collective-individual-thought-less-ness." :))
charles grashow said…
I ask JM the same thing " "What right do you have, what qualifications do you have, what
knowledge, what education do you have to give ANYONE ANY kind of advice?"
Wuchtamsel said…
The problem is that it's not even a lack of "thought". These fools "think" a lot actually. A lot more than their potential to do so allows for.
NS said…
"The goal of education must be to teach how to think rather than what to think." - Nietzsche
Wuchtamsel said…
At the beginning of my first comment I actually intended to quote Goethe. "Mit dem Wissen wächst der Zweifel." - With growing knowledge skepticism grows, too. (own free translation)
It's so irritating that Moore and co all talk this nonsense with this sickening degree of pathological self-certitude and without the even the SLIGHTEST hint of doubt...
NS said…
He is an established, published, and prolific cholesterol authority!!!
NS said…
"If I already know exactly what I'm looking for, why should I bother searching for it?" - Meno

"The hermit will doubt whether behind every one of his caves there is not always another......" - Beyond Good and Evil
rudyInLA said…
I don't know if it's the least bit true or just sour grapes but I heard he was busted being less than honest on his food log. Pics of restaurant food being pawned off as home made and the like. Wouldn't surprise me as a lot of people and websites do stuff like that. Did anyone sit through that Vimeo video? I couldn't. I got 2 or 3 minutes in. Really good interviewer...no really...he was great! Wasn't he?
River Rance said…
That was my tweet to Dr.OSullivan & Moore : Naturally got me banned from JM's twitter....no hate there at all...I was simply pointing out that contrary to O'Sullivan's gushing praise for JM, it was nonsense, 'cause Moore was a LC fail boat...In the narrow world of jimmy moore speak, pointing out facts and truths translates to "hater".
It's rather absurd
rudyInLA said…
Does Nietzsche have a food blog? If not....who cares what he say? Bet he ate carbs too. Loser.
rudyInLA said…
The doubt is hidden...but I guarantee you it's there. His "believers" have a burning coal of doubt in their minds as well. Even megalomaniacs sit with their backs to the wall and lock their doors at night.
Hello_I_Love_You said…
She does not have good insurance. Jimmy complains they had to pay out of pocket for FT3, RT3, T3, etc. She may work at a Walmart or some place where they give you a medical plan that works like most people's dental plan. In other words, there is really no coverage; you basically pay for everything including blood labs and your family members really have no coverage

Here he's been brainwashed by naturopaths that the secret to thyroid is in the Ft3/Rt3 ratio. But why would Chrstine have thyroid issues unless she's been LCing like Jimmy?
Kitty said…
Since he loves N=1 experiments so much, I wish he would do a meaningful one. I would love to see what would happen if for a month he ate only beans, greens and fruit ad libitum with a few nuts, olives and avocados thrown in for fat. It would be an easy way for him to prove his point. Although, the inevitable weight loss and health improvements would be problematic for his business model. There's just not much coin to be made Livin' La Vida Low Calorie Density.
Ancestral Chemist said…
Actually, the Okinawan diet was based around sweet potatoes and not rice like the other Japanese diets. Still, sweet potatoes are over 90% carbs.

Sometimes I wonder how people manage to believe him. With the sticks of butter for breakfast he manages to make even Rosedale look moderate.
charles grashow said…
Please explain to me why it's a good thing that her TC and LDL-C went down? JM preaches that these numbers are meaningless.


Joe Savant
I'm glad her's went down. My LDL-P is through the roof, my LDL-C is through the roof and my HDL hasn't raised at all. I'm limiting SFA and adding in more MUFA and PUFA. I'm still in ketosis, but if this P and C don't start trending down, then I'm going to have to try something else.

Jimmy Moore's Livin' La Vida Low-Carb
I don't necessarily think those things are as bad as they've been made out to be. But that's my choice to believe that, of course. I'm
monitoring for actual disease taking place and none is happening.

Joe Savant (Could this be JM's alter ego??)
That's awesome My particle count is over 3000, my apoB is 199 and my HDL is in the 40's. Total C is 318. I'm 43 years old. I noticed your's is pretty similar. So keep us informed on your CV health if you don't mind. I'm looking for ward to reading about it in more detail.

UH - Jimmy - no disease taking plac?

As Evelyn says - "If prediabetic blood sugars w/o use of
berberine, "nightmarish lipids" including LDL-C over 300, LDL-P over 3000, TC over 400, "mild risk" arterial flow, protein, mucusand
crystals in his urine, high pH urine, reduced immunity, low T,
accelerated aging, increasingly concentrated abdominal obesity,
sarcopenia etc. is thriving, then he's your man.
MacSmiley said…
213 at his height is still overweight. I can relate. But I don't consider BMI to be "artificial and arbitrary". Just inadequate. #TaleOfTheTapeMeasure
charles grashow said…

Look at JM's picture - the pinnacle of LC diet success!
rudyInLA said…
So Evelyn, giving the audio clip the little seriousness it deserves, being serious here, do you plans to dissect this piece in another blog piece in the future? I did listen until the pitch for his blog and books at the end, but I admit I was kind of dozing until about 30 minutes in. So, he explains how the Mayo clinic and doctors and all kinds of institutions don't understand Ketosis and he explains it to them? a his doctor tells him his ketones are too high and JM straightened him out? The Chiropractor interviewer is going to hand the book out when it's available? Beta Cell disruption (or did he say interruption?) is what you have if you have diabetes? Really? That's all there is? No hormones or liver or muscle cells or glucose transporter issues? He knows what causes diabetes whereas I have never heard anyone of any gravitas upon the issue make any such declaration? He ordered 15 pats of butter to eat or to see the waiters face, or both? The current advice is that is handed out by the evil dieticians and health authorizes is that Avocados clog arteries? Really? Or do they say that if you eat too much of anything you'll gain weight (ahem........uh.....sore subject I bet) Even if he never loses a pound his mind is as so sharp it's nirvana! Hitler was a vegan and use to say this too....although he was always at high altitude and probably had hypoxia or something.....anyway...I noticed the picture on of JM on the clip. You know....I'm going to start using a 20 or 30 year old pic on my passport and drivers license. I looked so much younger then! Why not? Probably get more chicks too! Well....maybe initially. He's gonna' be on a major TV show I'm telling you and it sure sounds like he's got the rap down they like to hear guests use. Even if he gets debated by someone in authority it will be a win for him.
Lighthouse Keeper said…
Ubermensch Radio .... make yourself superhuman.
rudyInLA said…
I'd be happy just to be average human!
charles grashow said…

"At 8:15am, I had that delicious egg and sausage meal that took me about five minutes to consume. At 8:20am, just after finishing my meal, I checked my blood sugar again and it had already dropped seven points to 86. Curious about this sudden drop, I then checked my blood sugar level again fifteen minutes later at 8:35am and it had jumped UP to 102. Hmmmm, now this was interesting. That made me want to see what would happen in fifteen more minutes at 8:50am and my blood sugar was back down to 92 again. For kicks, I measured it two more times at 15-minute intervals at 9:05am and 9:20am and my blood sugar was 89 and 92 respectively. I stopped measuring because it was almost time to eat

SO - at 8:15 he eats 2 eggs and 2 sausage patties - then @ 9:20 (1 hr, 5 min later) he eats again!! And he wonders why he gains weight!!
charles grashow said…
Christine now

TC - dropped 42 points from 240 to 198
LDL went down (22 points from 137 to 115)
HDL went down (15 points from 79 to 64)

(LDL) particle number…”
JIMMY: “Went up.”
DOCTOR: “…went up a little bit, but your ApoB went down which is also related to the LDL particle number.”

Christine then


Total Cholesterol 183
LDL-C 113
HDL-C 47
Triglycerides 113
LDL Particle Number 1262
Small LDL-P 722
LDL Part. Size 21.2
Large HDL-P 9.5
Large VLDL-P 0.6

Interesting that her LDL-P went up but good ole JM doesn't give the number.
Her previous LDL-P and especially her small LDL-P were very bad
Bris Vegas said…
Sweet potatoes are only 21% carbohydrate by weight and 83% carbohydrate by calories. Sweet potatoes are very low GI, high fibre and packed with nutrients.

White rice is basically a nutritionally empty junk food. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5722/2
Bris Vegas said…
Jimmy may be spouting rubbish but so are the government and the dietitians because both groups are controlled by the food industry.

Most dietitians are not experts in nutrition. They are clinical educators who have received a very basic grounding in biochemistry, physiology and food science. They are primarily trained to recommend minimal 'healthy' modifications, such as using low fat milk, to conventional diets.

A major employer of dietitians is the food processing industry. The role of these dietitians is to convince the public that the processed crap has some trace of nutritional value.

The continuing education of dietitians is very heavily influenced by food industry sponsored training that recommends unscientific 'balanced' diets based on very high levels of (processed) grain, meat and dairy consumption.

If you read modern basic nutritional research you will be informed that the healthiest diets are very low (<10%) fat plant based 'vegan' diets. These are the diets that many leading researchers also follow. However extensive lobbying by the food and agriculture industries totally transform this research into vague recommendations that barely change the existing diet.
Bris Vegas said…
More likely Jimmy will suddenly drop dead without warning from a major infarct. His supporters will explain the cause of death as being 'reactive hypoglycaemia' from the single spoonful of sugar he had in his final cup of coffee.
Susanne said…
This is to Kitty (since Disqus says I cannot reply to a post which is not active??) -- I've been rooting for that a long time too. Or a Mediterranean diet, a real one, not the one the low-carbers or paleo diets claim -- a traditional Greek island one which is very plant and legume heavy, works out to vegetarian or even vegan for probably 3/4 of the meals.

But he would have to ramp up to it, I get the impression he eats very few vegetables, or plants of any kind. If he just switched right over from what he is eating now, he would probably be in serious digestive discomfort, which he could blame on the Ebil Carbs etc.
Wuchtamsel said…
I have never seen such a huge variability of HDL-C in a woman, no matter what dietary approach. Did she take niacin or something?
NS said…
Wasn't the "justification" for the 5 buttered eggs along with the stick of butter itself is that it is his only meal of the day???
Sanjeev Sharma said…
> growing knowledge skepticism grows, too

sure, but how much knowledge?

Steve Novella claims (I vaguely recall that he points to studies on this issue) that skepticism often does not show up until late in grad school.
carbsane said…
She doesn't work, never has to my knowledge at least since they're married. It is absurd that she doesn't as we know some fairly well-to-do self-employed folks were one spouse works part time at a place like Trader Joe's where the wages pay for the healthcare for an entire family. AND those plans would insure Jimmy unless there's some serious pre-existing condition he's not disclosing. Even if that were the case they would still cover him but not cover that treatment.

Christine was not LCing back in 2009 or 2010. It seems he had her "really get serious" with it for their failed embryo adoption (ironically, when she couldn't stomach the eggs with morning sickness, they opted for pills right away over more anti-nauseating foods like toast that she usually likes). Then he put her on a keto diet to post her numbers last year, posted one week's and stopped. For some reason she is eating more and more like him.
carbsane said…
Bernstein does not exude good health. Creepy dude to me. (personal opinion I'm expressing in comments)
carbsane said…
So better to listen to who? The people who have some constraints on their bull puckies and have some liability? Or chiropractors and former Denny's customer service reps ...
carbsane said…
Yes, that was Stargazey who busted him for that. It was the ultimate display of your basic calories count ALWAYS journey. Only he still is in denial over that (although notice that he is "paying attention" these days ... but for "those who pay attention to meaningless silly things like that which we know really have nothingwhatsoevertodowithweightandobesity".
carbsane said…
The first ever menu of Jimmy's I remember was TWO 8oz burgers with cheese, side salad (who describes their homemade salads as a side salad?) drenched in ranch followed up by some dessert like an Atkins bar, some product he was promoting, a "cheesecake" (tub of whipped cream cheese with AS and flavor added), etc. He ate 2-3 meals like this a day at the time.
rudyInLA said…
I'm not a scientist, dietician, doctor or guru but offhand...I'd say the guy eats too much. Even if he is tall. He also happens to be wide. I used to be fat, not JM fat but fat. You know why? I ate too much. Imagine that. He and I have something in common. As far as the side salad, is that a southern thing?
charles grashow said…
2 different "experiments"
carbsane said…
Side salad is a restaurant thing of all different types. We went out to an italian place to celebrate Mom's day early. It's just a small salad. In many Italian restaurants in this area entrees come with a side of soup or salad whether or not the entree contains any veg. A cup of soup vs. a bowl, a small bowl of salad. Especially distinguished in the past 20 years since entree salads became popular.
H Ford said…
No he's not alone by any means as this lady says here. She is shown here after receiving her 75 year medal. She developed diabetes in 1934, 12 years before Dr Bernstein.

(it's one of several such videos of people who have had T1 for 50, 60, 70 and even 80 years)
charles grashow said…
Franziska Spritzler, RD


"As a registered dietitian, I can't endorse a low-carbohydrate diet consisting of 6 eggs fried in butter with 4 slices of bacon for breakfast, 3 hamburger patties for lunch, and a 20-oz steak with a tiny green salad for dinner. While certainly nearly carb-free, it's missing a lot of beneficial phytochemicals found only in plant foods and contains only a couple of grams of fiber. But I firmly believe that a carbohydrate-restricted plan that includes the high-fiber plant foods listed above can be a very heart-healthy way to go."
Sanjeev Sharma said…
As should be expected (when a group eschews real skepticism and standards for evidence in trying to get closer to reality)

to embrace cherry picking, the usual splits and schisms are developing. As I told Muata a long, long time ago on this site, as per usual with group dynamics the "moderates" like Kurt Harris left and the extremists are winning out (even Atkins maintained people should eventually go back to more mainstream eating), alternate holy books are developing
rudyInLA said…
I guess I've heard it called that but not in a long time and I think I was back east somewhere. Dinner salad comes up a lot in diners and stuff. I just thought it was a "thing" like "sweet tea" or something. Ever try to NOT order a sweet tea in the south? I swear...honest to heaven.....I have always said no thanks and the server brings me a giant one anyway and says "try it...it's great!" Dude.....it's tea with sugar in it....not a secret formula! Very funny to me.
charles grashow said…
AFAIK she hasn't but then again JM doesn't post much about his wife's regimen. With those lipids I don't believe she's eating what he's eating.
Lighthouse Keeper said…
One can see this becoming even more Monty Pythonesque as the gut biome science research rolls in, different bacteria will have their fan clubs eventually leading to increasingly bitter debate followed by sectarian split offs.
Wuchtamsel said…
That's rather the other side of the spectrum of nutritional religions and actually got NOTHING to do with the results of published research.
dancer80 said…
Okinawans eat rice but in smaller portions. My grandparents' generation ate more rice after the 1950-60s, but often the rice is eaten with adzuki beans or used as mochi either roasted in soup form. After the 1970s even the elderly people eat more rice than sweet potatoes, sweet potatoes were not ubiquitous like rice at meals. In fact I would say they eat just as much adzuki beans as sweet potatoes. The reason why rice is consumed in smaller portions is because of the nutrients-dense and fiber-rich dishes eaten with rice, such as various types of sea vegetables and land vegetables.
dancer80 said…
One of the reasons why a sideshow diet "expert" like Jimmy Moore is able to retain certain credibility is the fact that many of the low carb/ all carbs are the same "experts" are now mainstream as far as credibility goes. People like Taubes are still getting good, mainstream press. Read this article about the documentary Fed Up, and then read the comments. There is the usual, lazy connection linking refined carbohydrates with whole food carbohydrates. As it is the NYT, you have your usual high protein/ high fat Taubes acolytes kissing Taubes' ass. We did not become fat as a nation by eating whole food, unrefined carbs, we got there eating processed junk and unlimited portions of it.

rudyInLA said…
So three years ago their numbers were great and you could read "Lesson 2" (give me a break.....he calls the chapters lessons?) and you too could have wonderful numbers like he and his wife. Why is he still talking about it and changing his WOE every 15 minutes? The later piece you linked to shows the numbers getting better. Well either the damn numbers matter or they don't!!!!! WHICH IS IT? Stop testing if they don't matter!! if I was happy with my health, confident I was doing the best I could and felt great with tons of energy and a great workout routine, I might stick with it for a week or a year of three. I thought I was done beating this dying horse but it's just too interesting! Thanks for those links. I still say it looks like he stops at gas stations and buys Little Debbie Cakes to wolf down when he's alone.mIf he doesn't why does he just plain LOOK so unhealthy? Are the pics of him that deceiving?
Susanne said…
And posting the Lustig video. Is there a health article anywhere on the internet that doesn't have that posted in the comments section?

I've often wondered why vegetarians/vegans, paleo dieters, and low carbers are so vocal in comment sections, but calorie counters (and their relatives, Weihjt Watchers etc.) show up much less, although from what I remember in the National Weight Loss registry the latter are more dominant among maintainers. And when calorie counters do show up, they tend not to get drawn into long comment wars.
Wuchtamsel said…
Yeah, you know. I guess it's because they well know that... http://tinyurl.com/2fovorz
Wuchtamsel said…
What ever these strange little bulges on his arms are, they are neither biceps nor triceps muscles. I guess by excluding those they must be tumors.
carbsane said…
I think they are proof that insulin causes fat accumulation. ;-)

Wuchtamsel said…
Strange injection site though... ^^
charles grashow said…
Her numbers were good - his were CRAP
"Total Cholesterol 351
LDL-C 278
HDL-C 57
Triglycerides 79
LDL Particle Number 2130
Small LDL-P 535
LDL Part. Size 22.0
Large HDL-P 10.9
Large VLDL-P 0.4

Most physicians would look at this with big bug eyes and write a prescription for a statin drug so fast you wouldn’t be able to blink before he handed it to you! But despite my “high” total cholesterol of 351 and LDL of 278, take a look at my HDL and triglycerides. The numbers were 57 and 79 respectively and basically a ratio of 1:1. Low-carb diet research Dr. Jeff Volek from the University of Connecticut says it’s this triglyceride/HDL ratio that is more important than total and LDL cholesterol ever will be.

Although my particle number of 2130 is considered “very high” for this test, the particle size of the small LDL-P was just 535 of that — considered “low” according to the test. Additionally, the LDL Particle Size of 22.0 nm is indicative of the “large” fluffy kind and the Large HDL-P and Large VLDL-P numbers I had put me in the “low risk” category. In other words, 1595 of my LDL particles were this protective kind and the graph was off the charts.
Meanwhile, the small LDL-P number was less than half of the “goal” that is considered desirable. The numbers were well within the safe range.
rudyInLA said…
You're right but what I was trying to say is that HE thinks his numbers were good three years ago, and he keeps talking about how this or that number of his is just great, and whichever way it goes he considers it an improvement. Now he's apparently experimenting to some degree on his wife. I'm just saying if I didn't care about my numbers I'd stop testing and if my doctor didn't know what he was talking about I'd suing him! It's what I call a "flexible reality delusion"
charles grashow said…

Why not just take his wife??
dancer80 said…
I suspect the reason calorie counters and similarly sensible type of dieters don't get into such arguments because they are considered to be unsexy and simply too straightforward by the vehement paleo dieters. Even though paleo dieters eventually come around to the fact that calories do matter at some point, especially in maintaining desired goal weight or even getting to that goal weight. It's also why I believe people like Sisson and Jaminet started touting intermittent fasting concepts, tweaking them to suit paleo dictates. Jaminet can put in any way he wants, but when he puts globs of coconut oil in his coffee during these fasts, he is practicing calorie restriction plain and simple. I'm not saying calories are the end all and be all, but calories do matter and a paleo dieter will not be able to sustain weight loss or good health eating unlimited calories from animal protein and fat.

Does Jimmy Moore know about how ridiculous it is to test his glucose using such strange spacing patterns? Instead of blood glucose, he should be more concerned about his pancreas constantly being taxed to secrete enzymes to digest the huge amounts of fat he ingests. At his triglyceride level, I would not be surprised if his self-induced adventures in lipoprotein metabolism means some form of pancreatitis in his near future. Risking healthy functioning of the pancreas like that, by eating so much fat at one sitting, is basically asking for higher risk in pancreatic cancer. I actually would like to see him compulsively check his lipid panels rather than blood glucose, seeing as how his fatty, protein-rich diet is giving him that unhealthy, ascites look in people with bad liver and pancreatic functions.
dancer80 said…
Triglyceride of 43 is excellent! Didn't Jimmy Moore have more than one brush with high triglyceride levels in his evolving VLV/ high fat experiments, i thought I read about it though it's hard to keep track of his diet experiments so I could be wrong.

He has the outward appearance of someone with poor liver and pancreatic functions, the bloated face coupled with ascites appearance. Not saying he has ascites but that from looking at him you can tell something metabolically wrong is going on.

Contrary to what many VLC followers are made to believe, the longer you are on such diets, the higher the chances of your triglycerides inching higher. This is even if you lose weight and improve overall lipid profiles initially. When I worked with pediatric patients on clinical trials I got to see interesting trials from oncology treatments to one that really was interesting to me at the time, ketogenic diets for management of epilepsy. For some of the kids, their triglyceride levels inched upwards and stayed there the longer they were on ketogenic diets. It was fascinating but a little worrisome. Incidence of epileptic seizures may have been lessened but then in the process another set of possible concerns were created, mainly the body being in an acidotic state all the time and of course high lipid panels. All of them end up taking meds to combat side effects of ketogenic diet.
Sanjeev Sharma said…
We know which ones Behe will worship

I'll go for penicillium (I know it's not bacteria but hey ... BLUE CHEESE) and Koji and the bacteria in Kimchi & the yogurt from Finland, Viili.
Sanjeev Sharma said…
and also for me, Lenski's e-coli
charles grashow said…
This is the study that the keto diet people ALWAYS reject


Effect of a High-Fat Ketogenic Diet on Plasma Levels of Lipids, Lipoproteins, and Apolipoproteins in Children

Results At 6 months, the high-fat ketogenic diet significantly increased the mean plasma levels of total (58 mg/dL [1.50 mmol/L]), LDL (50 mg/dL [1.30mmol/L]), VLDL (8 mg/dL [0.21 mmol/L]), and non-HDL cholesterol (63 mg/dL [1.63 mmol/L]) (P<.001 vs baseline for each); triglycerides (58 mg/dL [0.66 mmol/L]) (P<.001); and total apoB (49 mg/dL) (P<.001). Mean HDL cholesterol decreased significantly (P<.001), although apoA-I
increased (4 mg/dL) (P = .23). Significant but less marked changes persisted in children observed after 12 and 24 months.

Conclusions A high-fat ketogenic diet produced significant increases in the atherogenic apoB–containing lipoproteins and a decrease in the antiatherogenic HDL cholesterol. Further studies are necessary to determine if such a diet adversely affects endothelial vascular function and promotes inflammation and formationof atherosclerotic lesions.
Hello_I_Love_You said…
dancer, that's why every study that involved those epileptic kids are prefaced with a statement that such a diet was for short-term and they're not sure about health consequences long-term of that kind of a diet. Short-term, it makes sense, as it is to treat a specific condition. Plus these are kids whose hormonal and immune systems have not matured. You see huge disparity when comparing kids and adults on such diets. One such thing is thymus atrophy which accompanies leptin deficiency. Adults who go through that diet will experience this and that is the key to the whole immune and hormonal dysfunction, from what I'm seeing. Letpin, unlike what Rosedale is claiming, is not just a satiety hormone; it actually controls all other hormones and the immune system. That pretty much explains why people are ending up with food allergies, cold hands, low T3, cold body temperature, dysregulated cortisol, and who knows other debilitating illnesses when attempting VLCing long-term. Just go to pubmed and type leptin and thymus atrophy
Hello_I_Love_You said…
That's what I keep saying to this guy and he doesn't seem to get the message. Instead of staying in the background and behaving like a potted plant, he keeps butting in and starts posting things that either detract from the overall message or grossly oversimplifies the contested point. His points are either irrelevant, trivial, nit-picking, or just plain retarded. He has strong opinions about some things, I don't know exactly why. But he cannot articulate what they are because he misreads most research and cannot marshal a single coherent argument.
Hello_I_Love_You said…
Bernstein suffers from a condition called common variable immune deficiency. He dislcoses that about 25-33% of his patients and dieabetics in general suffer from this condition. (This is bullshit; most diabetics don't suffer from this condition. Only diabetics who's been VLCing and had their immune system wrecked will suffer from this.) He is apparently taking intravenous immune injections (probably immunoglobulins) everyday. He in fact says he gets up in the middle of the night to take it and he's annoyed because the injections raise his BG!

He claims it is genetic in origin and his other family members have it. He apparently had a biopsy in 2011, which was related to possibly lymphoma, which results from immune deficiency. He claims again that diabetics are prone to lymphomas -- again, bullshit, that's the result of VLCing; your immune system tanks when you're under constant ketogic stress. I'll get you the full quote kater; I have to dig that out since I listened to it a week ago and I lost the exact spot where he says this and I'm quite busy this week. But this is exactly what I was referring to. This is the result of long-term VLCing. Oh boy, did he pull the wool over everyone, including his patients, ever?
Lighthouse Keeper said…
Being rather partial to sauerkraut I probably end up as a cheerleader for leuconostoc mesenteroides.
Susanne said…
It's true that calorie counting is boring and unsexy. And when I think about it more, one thing that veg*ans, Paleo/Primals, and low carbers share is a narrative, the "story". Narratives are very motivating, both for individuals and for unifying a group (sorry, anthropology lecturer coming out here.) One narrative they share is especially useful for group cohesion, the "Us against the World" motif. It makes them especially resistant to countervailing evidence, because any countering arguments (studies, facts) are just More Evidence of How Broad the Conspiracy Against Us Really Is.

The Science Based Medicine website has talked about how for many people, personal narratives (anecdotes) are more convincing than actual facts. (I think the Colbert Report has covered this too, in a more entertaining way!) That's why we need the scientific method and peer review. Part of its role is to counter the power of the anecdote, which even researchers can be trapped by.

Calorie counters need a cool story. The "We Just Need Willpower" one you see sometimes in comments is a dead end. Willpower is finite (there is scientific evidence for this) and is inevitably going to run out in the face of the huge number of food decisions most Americans have to make every day.* We might think of developing an Us Against Them narrative with processed food producers as the Them. For that we would have to overcome the realities of the profit motive in our modern society.

*I don't subscribe to the idea that obesity is increasing because there has been an erosion of willpower in current generations compared to Americans. But there has been a huge change in the number of decisions that Americans have to make every day just to feed themselves, because of the increasing number and variety of food products. If you are my age (born 1968) you just have to look at the change in the size of supermarkets from the 1970s to today.
Next: Specialised lab diet for rats?
Actually, I could've sworn I saw the beginnings of this over some Facebook feed where the gut biome of some indigenous, parasite infest meat-eating culture was used to argue that our mainstream understanding of the inflammatory critters might be wrong. Of course, the article itself was quite clear in how the critters were still a problem but that they somehow worked out for these individuals, incidentally so, for a variety of other reasons.
This is pretty much a central issue. Regardless of the audience's bias for the lipid hypothesis might be, if someone's going to try to convince them that blood lipids are bunk, then they can't have it both ways. Make a cohesive and consistent argument. They matter or they don't, ditto for these tests.
rudyInLA said…
I especially like the pride he exhibits as he explains he always to "educate" his doctor. Talk about a shriveled ego hidden behind a mask of confidence.
Can't count how many times some nimrod will emerge in a thread and go, "But you are misinformed... Have you not seen this epic video, Sugar the Bitter Truth, by Dr. Lustig?" At which point one must dig back a good few years since this stuff was addressed thoroughly when it was still new. It kind of boggles the mind that the hyperbole manages to sport a longer shelf-life than the actual debunking of said hyperbole.
Absolutely. While unlike others, I do think one extreme is less patently harmful than the other, and has fewer paranoid figures leading its camp, the types of conspiracy nonsense and paranoia propaganda that does emerge from both sides is almost identical. No ****!

One could literally swap around a few words and they're using the same literature. The same ol', it's the government killing us. The same old: our food supply is tainted. The same old: they don't know the truth about 'real nutrition'.

Of course, then the final answer is where they might differ, but really, something has to be said about these major overlaps in the MO of each side.
Not to mention, one has a reasonable window with fasting trigs. Try gauging his trigs after one of those 2000 calorie, 85% fat meals. That's when one is likely breaking the threshold by any standard.

Oh, and it's even more telling if one has high fasting trigs despite extreme carb restriction. Just like it's serious trouble if one is getting very high glycaemic response just from eating a measly steak or serving of meat -- that's one horribly messed up glucose metabolism.
Sanjeev Sharma said…
>still say it looks like he stops at gas stations and buys Little Debbie Cakes to wolf down when he's alone

IMHO we ought to leave this to FREDDY baby - but I write that firmly believing that deadly FREDly will only sling the accusation at unidentified members of his gym -
rudyInLA said…
Excuse my ignorance but who/what is FREDDY?
charles grashow said…
Remember that Dr Lustig is now saying - with the exception of grapes - that you can eat ALL THE FRUIT YOU WANT!
Oh, yeah! I also remember the recent mantras about a certain paper on sugar. Couple that with this latest oddity about all fruit 'with the exception of grapes' and his case goes from troubling to downright bizarre. At least when he was a general crusader against sugar, the narrative--flawed as it might be--was consistent, now it's just completely postal! LOL!
Sanjeev Sharma said…
Fredrick Hahn


rudyInLA said…
Oh him....the slow motion guy.
carbsane said…
Fred will be on the cruise in a week or so. Perhaps he can police the midnight pizza buffet ;-)
charles grashow said…

Most report continuing to maintain a low calorie, low fat diet and doing high levels of activity.

78% eat breakfast every day.
75% weigh themselves at least once a week.
62% watch less than 10 hours of TV per week.
90% exercise, on average, about 1 hour per day.
Mirta Ana Schultz said…
OK, how the hell is that reactive hypoglycemia. I don't see where his glucose numbers went under 70 or 60....if he's always in the 90s, isn't that the higher end of the normal glucose numbers? How is he hypoglycemic? So confuddled.
NS said…
Marketing material for the continuing sham and self delusion.... One wonders how much of it is sincere.
carbsane said…
Hey there! Nice to see ya, hope all's well :-)

Yeah, I remember him talking about this RH in 2009 and linking to that and mentioning being on metformin. None of it makes sense. RH is not going a few points below baseline some hours later. Nor was his insulin aberrant considering the size and composition of the meal. I especially don't get metformin for his "condition" as that should only suppress glucose production in the liver ... but I could be missing something.
carbsane said…
Reading through comments here and some FB conversations, it has become clear to me:

Jimmy Moore found what works for him in 2004.
He lost 180 lbs that year and by the end of he next year he was in pretty good shape.
He has been tweaking and experimenting ever since to make it work for him ever since.
charles grashow said…
As he has said - what worked for him then doesn't work for him now. I think his problem is that he's never figured out the maintenance part of his diet.
Mirta Ana Schultz said…
Well, maybe he could start by doing EXACTLY what he did in 2004 again in 2014 and see how it goes....as one of those experiments. A retro n-1
charles grashow said…
I really think that he's destroyed his metabolism to the point where nothing will work now. He's said he's so carb sensitive now that he can't even eat lettuce.
carbsane said…
Maybe instead of going to S.Africa next January he should check into a hospital in Cuba and go on Ma Pi. I bet he'd come out a new man providing he hadn't done permanent damage. We're quite resilient beings, and he's still rather young.
Mirta Ana Schultz said…
THe only way to restore sensitivity would likely be to cut the fat and increase his whole produce (get those micronutrient sans tons of butter) and get back to strength training with regularity. He might need medication for a spell, but to continue on the sat-fat train won't improve his sensitivity. I suspect that highhighfat lowlowcarb is what effed him up. He needs to move more to plants and away from Kerrygold and tons of sausage. Leafy greens may spike him short term, but moving back to greens and veggies and fiber and some fruit would probably help a hella lot more than hurt.
Wuchtamsel said…
Pretty much what I observed on myself back in 2003. TC from ~220 mg/dl to > 300 and LDL from 1~40 mg/dl to > 200 in about 9 months.
Regularly one can read about those kind of "results" in the forums and ALWAYS someone comes around and encourages people to further cut back on evil... Some LC Kool-Aid anyone???
BTW, now on a high produce low SF low cholesterol diet my TC hovers between 150 and 160 mg/dl. It's such a mystery, isn't it?
River Rance said…
Could be looking for a different experience. Who wants a hotel roommate with a stranger anyway?
billy the k said…
The key incident behind the title of Jerzy Kosinski's "The Painted Bird" (1965) involved catching a bird, putting a bit of paint on it, releasing it back to its flock--whereupon seeing that the returning bird now LOOKED DIFFERENT, the flock would straightaway attack it viciously and--peck it to death. What brought this to mind was reading the recent comments of Carbsane regulars attacking poor ol' struggling, inconsistent, up-and-down Jimmy Moore. Then too the Dr. Bernstein attacks.

Bernstein a low-carb "Nazi"??? Hmm...The sudden appearance of this other "N" word is a tipoff that the ground floor of civility has just collapsed. I've seen no reports of Dr. Bernstein holding a 9mm Luger to the temples of kneeling diabetics, ordering them to restrict their carb intake. By all means go after the soundness of Bernstein's dietary recommendations, but how does it advance your argument to ridicule his appearance? Calling someone a "creepy looking dude" carries a lot of weight in the schoolyard playground, but I'm pretty sure it's not a valid scientific argument. Particularly so in this case since Bernstein's deformities occurred prior to his low-carb diet. It was the chronically elevated blood sugars of his childhood diabetes that caused the deterioration of many of his body's systems--caused his growth to be stunted, caused fatty growths on his eyelids and gray deposits around the iris of each eye, plus "frozen shoulders", along with a progressive deformity of his feet. All the while dutifully following the ADA and AHA low sat-fat, 45% carb diets--for which he had to compensate with very large doses of insulin--injected with a 10cc "horse-syringe" (which eventually destroyed all the fatty tissue in the skin of his thighs).

Just guessing, but I don't think you'd call an adult who suffered the deformities of, say, childhood polio a "creepy looking dude." The best diet in the world cannot correct some severe damages suffered during childhood.
Nuff said.
Hello_I_Love_You said…
Bernstein has been off limits from attack for many years because of his age and his supposedly heroic status. Many think of him as St. Bernstein who promulgated an impossibly immaculate diet for diabetics that will maintain BG homeostatis. Sure, I can't be like Bernstein, but good for him and you should follow his diet! Let us at least try to imitate Bernstein, like you imitate Christ. We're all sinner and cheat except for Bernstein and his hardcore followers. His entire diet has been based on the theory that such a strict diet will result in an optimal A1c (4.1-4.4) that will stave off diabetic complications and also promote cardiovascular health -- even if there is no evidence that that level of A1c is in fact ideal or optimal for being healthy.

That perception is crumbling now behind what we're finding out about this guy and what kind of cover up he has been engaged in. Creepy is a term that was probably coined for his behavior for the last 15 years. I'll write more on this later but the question now is, what did Bernstein know about hormonal and immune dysfunction in his patients and those who follow a strict VLCing diet and when did he know it? Evidence is mounting that he's known this longer than any other diet guru and that he's been actively covering up such serious conditions.
Pinky Artichoke said…
Sharing expenses with your own wife doesn't really save you much. :)
carbsane said…
Yeah but it's anniversary time and he could bring her along and send her to the spa for a day or so while he rubs elbows with the paleorati then extent the stay for some sight seeing.
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