An Open Letter to Sean Croxton (and Jimmy Moore, and anyone else buying his stories)

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Jimmy & Sean in April 2013
Last week, Jimmy Moore paid a visit to the Underground Wellness radio show/podcast hosted by Sean Croxton.

Jimmy Moore has a new book out, set to be released today.  Keto Clarity it is called, and in addition to the various therapeutic uses, sure to be over-hyped, this book will include the story of Jimmy's personal triumph over regaining roughly half of his LC weight loss despite remaining true to livin la vida low carb.

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Tom "Fat Head" Naughton & Jimmy, July 2014
***  I have no intention to waste time on this book.  Unlike Cholesterol Clarity, the subject matter is unlikely to have much of a broad impact.  If you have any of the conditions listed on the jacket, seek a licensed medical professional who is experienced in the legitimate therapeutic applications.  If you're in it for weight loss, there's Exhibit A.  Save your money either way.  ***

Contrary to the delusions of Jimmy's "friends", I really don't concern myself much with what the man is up to day to day.  When the conferences take place I like to follow the Twitter feeds and the inevitable pictures that go along with them.  I occasionally look at his Facebook page and mostly chuckle from time to time when things land in the Inbox etc.  

Jimmy Moore has long since separated himself from the truth of events as they actually occurred, and lives in his very own fairy tale world.  Most in his new community -- paleo -- are unfamiliar with the pre-2011 Jimmy Moore and they believe the stories he tells -- about his weight, and, apparently everything else.   It doen't really matter to them.  Jimmy Moore has a successful podcast and he could launch careers or at least get folks in with the right people with that alone.  Nobody cared much at that point about his personal story ... he could help them sell books and whatnot.  It's 2014.  In the past almost decade since losing 180 lbs, Jimmy Moore has regained and relost well over 400 pounds -- 20, 30, 50 pounds at a time.

His weight was ballooning out of control in late 2011 and early 2012 by the time most in the paleo community "met" him.  It would eventually top 300 in the spring.  There was snickering and worry aplenty going on behind Jimmy's back.  And I'm not talking about these so-called haters ... but his friends!  His appearances at the inaugural AHS and PaleoFX conferences had many wondering  what was up with Jimmy.  He barely resembled the 2005 avatars he had reverted to using at least a year before (and still does!).

In May 2012 Jimmy Moore embarked on his most extreme n=1 yet -- "nutritional ketosis".  To the new fans, this was something believable and novel.  He was a man dedicated to solving and fixing his health issues and determined to lose this weight that had found its way onto his body like fuzz on velcro.  To those familiar with his history, this was nothing new as Jimmy had embarked on crazy extreme schemes many times before -- the most memorable being the egg-fast of 2010, followed by beef, egg and coconut oil challenge of 2011 ... oh, and throw in a full week's fast.

But Jimmy  reinvented himself with a new story line.  Instead of these fluctuations, fad diets, challenges and such, he now tells anyone who will listen about how his weight crept up 10-15 lbs at a time, slowly, year by year.  Try as he might to stem the tide, the pounds just kept finding him, his metabolism failing him at every turn.  He bravely and honestly faced it head on despite all of his mean "hater" critics!!!!  This one lasted as long as it did fueled by his supporters and a dire sense of urgency.

The thing about NuttyK as I call it, is that it is not paleo -- nobody can reach that level of dietary fat without consuming a fair amount of dairy and/or refined vegetable fat, e.g. the beloved coconut oil.  So much for whole real foods.  Stretches your JERF there too Sean ... or is butter a food instead of a condiment?  Why even Atkins is probably rolling over in his grave learning of someone essentially consuming his "fat fast" macros for more than a few days.  

Where my interest in this has always lied is that I care about folks getting accurate information, not gimmicks.  In the arena of keto diets, blood sugar regulation and weight, there are way too many misconceptions and outright myths being bantied about ... the stuff of chocolate cakes and steaks for example. .  Many -- too many -- jumped on his bandwagon, and the low carbers gleefully proclaimed "Jimmy is losing weight again!"   The "haters" must just be jealous now was the mantra to deflect criticism.  

And so it went and Jimmy lost weight.  Hand over fist. Hurrah!  The old Jimmy was back and people eagerly awaited his monthly updates.  By October he had shed around 50 lbs and seemed to gather steam rather than fade.  He had even been invited to speak in Australia, which he did, in November.

Then, on December 7, 2012, Jimmy Moore stepped in it.  In any real world his appearance on the David Duke radio program and what followed would be career ending. (Of his own doing I might add.)  The whole sordid mess is detailed here, but here's the bottom line.  Jimmy Moore knowingly went on the radio show of Former KKK Grand Wizard and unapologetic antisemite David Duke's radio program.  To make matters worse, two weeks later, he listed/linked to David Duke's website on his own website, as a low carb, paleo or nutrition blog of interest for readers to check out.

It was actually the website listing that got him in trouble, not the radio appearance itself.  Which is odd really, but after that whole episode and what transpired next, nothing in this community will ever surprise me.  You simply could not go to that website -- even if linked directly to the health article section -- and not know instantly that this was *the* David Duke.  Jimmy's ultimate explanation strained credulity, and mostly  his friends were like the women of NOW after the Monica Lewinsky scandal.  They just didn't want to hear the truth about Bill Clinton.  He had done so much for women, or so the story goes.  The cause was more important than a silly little thing like standing on principle (and I'm not talking about the political/legal stuff that followed, I'm talking about defending his actions).    As is always the case, the cover-up is worse than what actually transpired.  Jimmy Moore had his finger-wagging at the American people moment back in December 2012 and carrying over into January 2013.

Jimmy did what Jimmy does best.  Blamed the "haters" rather than owning up to his mistakes.  In the end, the paleo community largely turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to the episode -- it might otherwise get in the way of promoting their books on his podcast, and the community was in full "protect our own" movement mode.   Vicious attacks were leveled at me in response, but I don't suppose you are interested in those, would you be Sean?  If you had even just the teensiest clue of what transpired last spring you might not wonder why I "waste" my time responding to any of this at all.  But do, please, keep your ignorance.  It is, as they say, bliss.  

The way I see it, I did what I felt was right in informing those who were interested in the truth of the facts.  As Jimmy's wife blubbered in the background, she accused me of making things up about Jimmy.  Not true.  I related what happened.   She, herself, has lost all credibility in my eyes as she sat there in Australia while Jimmy told a whole new version of his -- completely documented on his blog to the contrary -- weight regain saga.  

I won't hide my deep disappointment with many in the community who still support this guy.  But I let it drop.

I'm not the one who dressed him in an SS uniform and Hitler mustache for a good roasting.  That would be his friend Tom Naughton.  Hey Sean, you got a few minutes?  Watch this.   Do you get the Russian spy joke?   

Most in paleo don't.  That would be the first time Jimmy's lack of integrity first caught up with him as he plugged the dangerous Kimkins diet and raked in thousands of affiliate dollars.  But he survived.

I got a bit of a chuckle at that one, while judging from the groans in the audience, they'd rather not have been reminded.  Jimmy brought it up again in a print interview in August with Paleo Movement's Joe Salama (it's gone now ...).  How odd, it seemed to bring up that almost forgotten controversy.  Ahhh, but there were books to sell ...

I can't recall mentioning it since, perhaps in random reference when someone else has mentioned it, or when I shared this snippet from Fat Head's hilarity.  But really, it had gone away.  While you gather up every quack, crank and snake oil salesman for summit after summit, Sean, I read the scientific literature and blog about it here.  From time to time I'm asked about Jimmy.  I've blogged about him, but it's been far more rare.   There's not much left to say about someone who has become a caricature of himself.

And then there he was, on your show Sean Croxton.  And you bring up David Duke.


I know why.   Because it's been more than a year since Jimmy ended his "experiment", and by the looks of things he's been regaining ever since.  That's why.  Nobody, and I do mean nobody, is talking about Jimmy Moore, and his ketosis experiment anymore.  Well, except to rightly criticize his slab of butter for a meal antics or note his significant regain.  Oh, of course nobody at Paleo FX (where you posed for pictures with Jimmy) would actually *say anything*.  But speaking of that ... did you think to ask your friend what's going on?  Did you offer him advice or to help him with whatever was/is causing this latest backslide?  Doubtful.  But I wasn't there and I don't really know you, so I don't want to assume.

What I do know is that you gave Jimmy Moore the "floor" on your radio show to tell his side of his "persecution" and what transpired in late 2012.  Even Clinton knew better than to deny once the evidence was in.  Only what Jimmy did was tell yet another version of events.  A version that doesn't match the first version  he told, the "evidence" that still stands on his blog today.  Evidence he provided.

Now here's why I care that you brought up the Duke thing.  You don't have to mention me, I am implied and everyone knows exactly who he is talking about. You set Jimmy up by saying "oh I read about this on the internet, and I've never heard your side of the story" (paraphrase).


You say you are his friend.  This was a pretty big deal at the time.  Did you not think to discuss it with him in person?  If you've read about it, then you most likely read it here where I did link to his side of the story.  The mind boggles at how you think he has never told his side of the story.  But this was a set up and, of course, you know he did.  Right?

So let's recap what he told you now.  He claims that "Dr. Duke" emailed him to be on his radio show and he received this email after he had returned from his trip to Australia.  Innocently without bothering to vet the man he appeared on his show to talk nutrition, and only nutrition.  And that was that.  He made a mistake, he had nooooooooo idea who the guy was.  He didn't vet him properly because he was too busy to even do a Google search or click on the website after his whirlwind tour Down Under.  Just get on the phone for a -- at that time -- relatively rare appearance on someone else's show.

After which you stamped your "black friend seal of approval" on Jimmy.  "I know you're not a racist"   Let me be clear here.   IF you are going to wade into this, then it would be helpful to know what Jimmy's critics have actually said.  I have not called him a racist or a neo-Nazi.  It becomes increasingly difficult to not believe he sympathizes with those causes at this point though.  Still, the man's heart I do not know.  I do know that he hides behind his religion.  It is a valid question to ask for the paleo types, what a Creationist is doing in a movement based on evolution.  It is offensive that you would allow him to once again accuse his critics of anti-Christian bigotry.   This makes you either equally offensive or a fool.  His behavior is certainly not Christian, and his accusations against others vis a vis Christianity are unfounded and inexcusable.

In version 2.0 of Jimmy's side, he left out a very important  part of the story.  Linking to the David Duke website.  This is something that is not in question Sean.  He did it.  Two weeks after the radio appearance.  There was Duke's site as one of 36 sites for his readers to check out.  That's pretty damning.  Oh but it was the health page?  Thanks to Wayback Sean, we can go see what was on the site circa mid-December 2012.  For the health and fitness pages we have October 17, 2012 and January 15, 2013.  These should suffice to get the idea:

Oh lookie there!  A Vitamin D article in each capture.  You will notice that Duke makes no effort to hide his beliefs.  He makes it easy to learn about him if the banner tabs don't offer hint enough.  There is NO doubt this is *the* David Duke.  Why there's not even a stethoscope or white coat on the man to give the impression he is a medical doctor.

Perhaps the better question than why I care about this would be:  Why is it that you don't care?

According to Jimmy's version 1.0 of events:
It all started back in October when one of my “Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show” podcast listeners e-mailed me about this guy they had discovered named Dr. David Duke who was promoting some fantastic pro low-carb messages on his web site. You’ve gotta know that I get e-mails every single day from people making suggestions for people I should interview on my podcast, so this was nothing out of the ordinary. Honestly, I’d never even heard of this guy before but I clicked through to some of the links my listener provided and saw some superb articles about why we need Vitamin D for optimal health, the dangers of consuming wheat, how cutting carbs can improve health and weight and so much more. In other words, it was obvious this guy understood many of the exact same ideas espoused by most of the other guests I have interviewed on my show. So I contacted him inquiring about whether he’d like to appear on my podcast for an interview to talk about his ideas on nutrition just as I do with other prospective interview guests virtually all the time.
Within a day, I heard back from Dr. Duke (that’s how he signed the e-mail) himself stating that he’d love to be on my podcast, but that he would like to interview me on his radio show first. No problem. Since I had been a guest on plenty of other programs before, I agreed to appear as part of his “Fitness Friday” segment on December 7, 2012. He noted in his e-mail to me that he liked my “down to earth explanations of low-carb, low grain, high natural fats and protein, essentially Paleo eating and living lifestyles.” Awesome!
Does this square with the version 2.0 you allowed him to "set the record straight" with Sean?  I'd like an answer to that, though I doubt highly you will provide one.  It's not.  Now Jimmy claims this all went down after his trip to Australia, and that Duke emailed him asking him to be on his show.  As these are both his own conflicting versions of the same events, you can't be blaming others for any confusion or distortion when telling "their side".

But you go right on along helping him blame the "haters" (grow up already!!) for his predicament.  He needs buzz to sell books.  More importantly, he needs the diversion so as to avoid scrutiny of the fact that his unhealthful diet is not even working for weight loss anymore ... and he's pretty much run out of carb-cutting options at this point.  His loyal supporters must be rallied in his defense against teh ebil!

There's a saying that there's no such thing as bad publicity.  I think that Paula Deen has demonstrated otherwise.  I thought long and hard over whether or not to give Jimmy the attention he so clearly craves by responding.  As you can see, I decided that I would.  I'm hoping that this time, the community is receptive to the truth and tired of the lies.  They'll probably prove me wrong and disappoint once again, but I gotta think there are a few more who will see this for what it is this time.  Just another shameless cry for sympathy ... playing the downtrodden victim, one more time.  Pointing fingers at "haters" who only expose the truth.  

For what?  To sell books.  Victory Belt and all the authors who received free advance copies -- they likely didn't even skim let alone read -- who will flock to Amazon to leave their 5-star reviews, must be so proud.  You, Sean Croxton, must be so very proud of your good friend.

That is, unless, you have actually read the links in this post.  Then I suspect that feeling inside is rather not a welling up from pride, but a churning caused by  something else.  The question is, what will you do about it?  


carbsane said…
I don't want to edit the post so let me just say that the David Duke part is around 22 min 30 sec into the podcast. Also, for those who don't follow me on social media, here's an example of something that landed in my Inbox around a year ago. Seems Jimmy loves to challenge people to the Words w/Friends game ... at which he also, apparently cheats. :p
charles grashow said…
Let us not forget that Dr William "Wheat Belly" Davis also appeared on Herr Duke's program as well! Has he ever offered an explanation/apology?? Has Dr McGuff ever offered an apology/explanation??
The "world-renowned expert" who did two hour-long interviews with "Dr." Duke is Doug McGuff MD, an emergency medicine physician from Seneca, South Carolina
A controversial figure interviews a top-selling Milwaukee author

Notice the bottom of this page
« PREVIOUSViolent Jewish Supremacist Racism Covered Up by Ziomedia
NEXT »Racial Polarization of America Continues: 0% Black Vote for Romney

Jimmy had to have known - or is he really that STUPID??
Kenny M said…
Was that Tom Naughton Roast suppose to be funny? The audience was barely making a sound during the whole thing.

Could someone explain the Russian spy joke? Who is the person in the second picture that he seems to be poking fun at?

I actually asked Tom "Fat Head" Naughton about the Jimmy/Duke thing....and he rushed to his defense, just like Jimmy's internet buddies tend to do. Everyone else is just a "hater".
carbsane said…

MacSmiley said…
I was puzzled about how this app works, since Apple's iOS apps are sandboxed, isolated from other apps. So found the app's website:

Turns out it scans screenprints the user takes of the board and provides both words and scores in a list. Hardly fair at all.
MacSmiley said…
Seen that before in my travels on YouTube before I discovered your blog. Nice to have a bit more context. Evidently, nobody in LC believes in guilt by association.

PS. No it's not OK for Dr. Wheatbelly's appearance on DD, either, but greed greases all palms.
Wuchtamsel said…
Damn, this pic of Naughton and Jimmy...
I'm so jealous, cause I never will look as special as those two nutrition-, health- and fitness-experts. Do they wear fat suits under these oversized shirts? Or are they carrying their personal strategic butter reserves in some kind of suicide-bomber vests?
John Smith said…
Not everyone has what it takes to look like crap, it requires years, nay decades of strict adherence to a highly restricted diet.
Kenny M said…
Didn't you know? Naughton has been lifting weights, so that's most likely muscle bulk under that shirt. See his stupid looking lifting-face here: Don't stare too long or you'll see a pic of him shirtless and flexing, and you will feel a nauseating feeling in your stomach.

As for Jimmy, see Evelyn's post on Tom Naughton claiming Jimmy gained a pound of muscle in each bicep. LOL. Must be those gathered Kerrygold butter sticks.
Wuchtamsel said…
By the way, did anyone read this piece of s*** that Naughton published last week?

Is it really asking too much for him to grasp a very basic understanding of confounders, statistical adjustments and how they are done? Really? I mean, shouldn't he then stop blogging immediately and rather engage in some kind of recreational activity, read an introduction to statistics for fourth graders or improve his professional skills? The latter seems to be pretty urgent to me. But heck, what do I know, he is the "humorist"...
River Rance said…
The irony! CarbSane tells the truth about Jimmy Moore and is branded a "hater". Tom Naughton creates a Nazi image of Jimbo and not a peep from Jimbo (maybe he likes the look)......maybe Naughton is a "closet hater" I'm sure there are plenty of evolutionists (paleo types) that would like to expunge a "creationist" (Jimmy Moore) from co-opting their movement......maybe Naughton's stupid/ignorant attempt at humor finally did it....there's just nothing humoruous about creating a Nazi look for Jimmy Moore(unless JM is a Nazi sympathizer) or anyone for that matter.....take it from a Jew. And why Croxton didn't take Moore to task makes him really appear to be more of a "Tom" than I first believed.....
carbsane said…
Ya know, while I'm not a huge fan of that term, because it is often misused, I have a hard time disagreeing with it vis a vis Croxton given his response to this post. ( He doesn't care.

I wonder about Tom sometimes. It wasn't his brightest mood to date, but I'm happy to share his art and humor!
carbsane said…
Tom has been front and center in initiating and perpetuating the slanderous stalking charges against me. Also he was still blaming me for Kruse when even Angry Dick had gotten the memo! The man lacks a certain moral compass.
carbsane said…
Hi Kenny,

The "Russian spy" was one of the photos that Kimmer aka Heidi Diaz used as an "after" picture to promote her Kimkins website and diet plan back in 2007 (or before?). Turns out she sourced these pictures from a Russian mail order bride website or something like that! The picture that replaces it was the real woman.

Per River Rance's comment below, it is mighty odd that Naughton would bring up these episodes in his roast -- I am pretty sure he brought up Kimkins the prior year as well.

In all of the current accounts, Jimmy's Kimkins association is left out, but he raked in an estimated $15K in affiliate dollars before the scam was revealed. It's all here:

There are five plans to choose from on Kimkins and I decided to start with the Kimmer Experiment, commonly known as K/E. This plan dictates that you eat lean sources of protein, such as turkey, chicken, salmon, lean roast beef, lean ham...all of which I consumed on Atkins during my original weight loss. You are allowed to eat as much of it as you need to satisfy your hunger. No calorie restrictions are necessary.
Sure, it's been a little boring so far, but the results have been nothing short of miraculous for me:

Day 1--I LOST 6 pounds!
Day 2--I LOST 4 pounds!
Day 3--I LOST 1 pound!
Day 4--I LOST 2 pounds!

Let me add that up for you: 13 POUNDS LOST IN FOUR DAYS!!!

Holy moley! Do you realize in a mere 96 hours I have lost ONE-FOURTH of my goal for weight loss?! Amazing, simply incredible!

One thing this has done for me is it has refocused my efforts to be constantly on guard about my habits. Yes, I still avoid sugar, white flour, starchy foods, and the like. But I got lazy and allowed the compulsion to eat without hunger to creep in.

I know, I know. It's pretty stupid to do that, but this just goes to show you that it can hit any of us at any time. I'm not too proud to admit this because I want to help others make livin' la vida low-carb their permanent lifestyle change.

Kimkins has put me back into ketosis again by getting me back to the basics. Yes, I could have started Atkins Induction again, but I wanted to shake things up a bit this time around. I'm pleased with what has happened.

Now, lest you think it's all been rosy for me, it has not. The typical Induction symptoms of being lethargic, having body aches, sleeping longer than normal, trouble concentrating, and all the other temporary, short-term Atkins flu reactions have hammered down on me hard this week. OUCH!

Even still, 13 POUNDS ARE GONE! Sweeeeet!

I'm not sure how much longer I will stay on K/E, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. At some point I will begin the Kimkins Boot Camp which incorporates low-carb veggies and even some exercise to kick the weight loss into high gear. I'll blog about that if I move into that phase.

For now, I'll stay in K/E because I'm starting to get used to it. I never would have expected to lose weight...AGAIN...this fast! Thousands of brand new members have signed up this week to join Kimkins because it really works. It has for many others and now it has for ME!

~Jimmy Moore June 2007

Note all the lean protein he was eating and yet he got into ketosis. Keto Clarity folks!

As to Naughton bringing up his Jewish wife ... so that makes it OK? Like a black internet diet/fitness marketer saying so makes it OK too?
carbsane said…
Looks like Sean is enjoying himself. I had expected silence. Glib like this, not so much. I cannot respect this man.
Wuchtamsel said…
Ugh, he should have left that shirt on for sure... Smells like a body dysmorphic disorder to me.
Sanjeev Sharma said…
He once invoked Carol Tavris to support Taubes; what can anyone expect quality wise after that?
Sanjeev Sharma said…
The Ben Greenfield award fer sure.
Can't wait for Sean to start being true to the nature of Paleo and start selling those bracelets.
River Rance said…
A panderer interviewing a panderer;

"A panderer is someone who tries to please others, not to help them but
for an ulterior motive. A panderer kisses up to get something. A
panderer is sometimes vulgar. Politicians are often panderers,
especially the ones who say or do anything to get a vote or raise money.
Pandering is dishonest because the panderer says what they think others
want to hear, not what they really believe."
Kenny M said…
LOL, I saw that too. That post was pure garbage.

Let's not forget, Tom claimed that Jimmy's LVLC site was "one of the most useful health and nutrition web sites in all of cyberspace." back in 2009. So they are basically inseparable at this point. I feel bad that Tom has taken on the offensive duties with Evelyn and spreading all the stalker rhetoric anytime she dares criticize Jimmy.
Kitty said…
The recent picture of Jimmy and Tom... I have no words. He could be enjoying pizza and beer every day and look just as "healthy."

At least he's educating everyone he meets by telling them the secret of his success. That way they know what not to do. However, I think most people already know that eating a stick of butter with eggs every day will make you fat.
John Smith said…
"Angry Dick" is the nickname Anthony Colpo came up with for Richard Nikolay
On the issue of individuals who bring up their own personal background to get a pass on their less than stellar sense of social tact. . . or tendency towards cultural and/or political insensitivity. A load of sheerly self-serving nonsense and hogwash.

[CoolStoryBro]: There was drama recently within a close association of my friends when one of the guys--who kinda' went off the rails in recent years--while going on an annoying, utterly baffling racism-denialist crusade, started to simultaneously claim racism against himself. It happened when another one of our friends jokingly--truly in jest to make a spectacle of himself in a one-on-one conversation--used the slang form of certain word. From that point on, it was all about racism to this lunatic, to the levels of outright harassment and threats... and we thought this guy was postal before his racism shenanigans. Defending Donald Sterling's credibility and character to shameless extremes in one breath while accusing a trusted friend of his for merely misusing a word that is a regular internet meme in another.[/CoolStoryBro]

With certain individuals, racism and bigotry are a ridiculed myth propagated from their ivory tower of convenience... But completely true when they can personally play those cards themselves to manipulate and deface others with extreme prejudice. The savage hypocrisy, irony and appeal to convenience is nauseating.
Hmm. I think River Rance is really onto something with the whole 'Tom Croxton' angle.
MacSmiley said…
Interesting. So, then, what does Angry Dick call Colpo? ;-P
Rosie May said…
Well said Kade, there's something lurking behind Paleo that's not very nice at all, it keeps peeping out from between the lines on many a paleo and low carb blog.
Wuchtamsel said…
After all these years it's still a mystery to me. Don't these idiots who follow Moore realize that? Don't they see what a ridiculous, retarded(!) blob he is? It really makes me angry to witness something like that.
John Smith said…
What is lurking is untreated mental illness, for some reason Paleo/LC tends to attract people who suffer from a variety of mental illnesses. Due to the disdain for conventional wisdom and treatments the mentally ill people it attracts are the untreated ones.

Imo this is why some of the more sane commentators finally threw in the towel and either stopped contributing or only contribute sporadically. For example the Paleovore guy, he finally had enough when people gave him crap for eating a bowl of Rice Krispies.
Kenny M said…
When I asked Tom in the comments section about Jimmy eating a full stick of butter, he tried to play it off like it was perfectly OK. I then got him to actually admit that he'd rather have his two daughters eat a full stick of butter than 1 slice of wheat bread. This is what paleo has become.
StellaBarbone said…
I think that paleo appeals to anti-government libertarians and the libertarian philosophy appeals strongly to racists, so you get a somewhat coincidental overlap based on sticking it to the government by eating saturated fat. A lot of libertarians celebrate smoking and consuming large quantities of soda to defy Bloomberg, the first lady and other diet and health do-gooders they detest.
While I try to refrain from collectivising and rebranding movements as some kind of socio-political cultural monolith, you've definitely highlighted an alarming reality beneath the veil that Rosie was referring to earlier. Frankly, they've boxed themselves into this stereotype and many of them are rather proud of flaunting this fact.
carbsane said…
Good points one and all!!
Evan said…
Sad to see another African-American endorsing Jimmy's book. I left a comment about it, but it's not appearing for some reason.
carbsane said…
Whether "appealing" is the correct word or not, one of the more popular libertarian sites is Lew Rockwell dot com. I wouldn't have to look too long to find examples of racism espoused on that site.
StellaBarbone said…
This isn't really the place to discuss this, so this is my last salvo. There is a fairly sizeable number of L's who do not like government anti-discrimination laws (unfortunately, the absence of such laws does not lead to no discrimination), many of whom, ironically, like having laws that make it difficult for women to have access to certain medical procedures. Racists are drawn to a philosophy that says that anti-discrimination laws are wrong. The L's can certainly find common ground with people who find the history of Jim Crow laws appalling and who feel that it is government's role to act as a broker between citizens with competing visions, as imperfectly as that role may sometimes be executed. It took the federal government to end state and local JC laws 50 years ago.

You are explaining a theoretical libertarianism without acknowledging how it is practiced in the reality of 2014. I have heard your argument before, but I can see that there are definitely people who call themselves Libertarians and who fall far short of your ideals.
billy the k said…
Hi Stella
Agreed--this ain't the place to discuss this, and I do promise Evelyn not to drag this out.  

But I didn't bring it up, and (although I tried!) I cannot acquiesce in the conflation of Libertarianism with racism.

And laws that compel or prohibit women from doing whatever the hell they want to do with their own bodies are ipso facto anti-Libertarian. Those who favor such prohibitions and call themselves Libertarians thereby manifest their ignorance about what the principle of Liberty requires.  Which in this case (as in most others) is: HANDS OFF.
David Pete said…
As a self described libertarian (small l) I have to reluctantly agree with Stella's assessment. As mentioned by Evelyn, some of the Lew Rockwell crowd is subtly or at times overtly racist. There has been an influx over the last 10 years or so of "states rights" type libertarians who use it as a thinly veiled cover for racism or whatever. It makes it hard to even use the word anymore as many will instantly think of those types and discard any ideas that I might have.
I forget what the small l libertarians stood for, since I left the ideology a long time ago.

Anyway, good point . . . pretty much the cornerstone issue I have with many of the self-styled 'Libertarians' in American is the fact that they're basically old-world romantics--in all the bigoted ways--thinly veiled in liberalisms. Very little is going to change my mind over the notion that as an ideology, it is very attractive to some very pro-feudalism (they'll come just shy of admitting this outright), hard-headed ideologues.
billy the k said…
"[libertarianism]... is very attractive to some very pro-feudalism...

Certainly A-OK with me if you've moved on from both Libertarianism and libertarianism a long time ago, but Kade:

a.The status of peasants under feudalism was a condition of bondage.

b. Like slavery, bondage is a prima facie antithesis of liberty.
(I know, I promised, Evelyn, I know....)
All well and good. Of course, it doesn't stop people who will leverage and use such ideology in hopes to assert control as they have with any ideology in the past, especially with how agorism left much of the old Scandinavian tribes in a consistent state of low-level warfare.

I mean, I could get on every knee-jerk anti-Marxist forum, which would be a LOT for the American right, and go on about how Stalinism and practically every functional implementation of political communism was the anti-thesis of empowering the proletariat force and actual Marxism. This idealised notion didn't stop individuals like Pol Pot, Stalin, Bolsheviks, etc., from utilising the principles very handily for their totalitarianism. Just as it doesn't prevent self-serving individuals--such as those appearing at Lew Rockwell--from appearing as they do in the Libertarian movement, or the infinite memes about certain scholars of the Ayn Rand ilk and their very one-sided view of 'bums/unworthy/economic natural selection/Darwinian freedom'. To them, it's merely a methodical privatisation--for themselves and their allies--of the centralised institution of control and bondage that you've been criticising.
billy the k said…
Thanks Kade.

I appreciate your taking the trouble to further explain your previous comments re libertarianism.  I've got a better understanding of where you're coming from.

My own take on it derives from a lifelong aversion to coercion, bullying, prohibitions, mandates, etc., which do not respect individuals as autonomous subjects but rather as objects.

When I lived in Canada, David Lewis (then leader of the NDP) wrote a book detailing the entrenched system of of gov't subsidies routinely handed out to various wealthy Canadian corporations. The book's title became a term of common usage in Canada, as it succinctly nailed the hypocrisy of "Free Market" espousing corporations who had no qualms about laws that effectively rigged the market for their own behalf, or about pocketing the taxes taken from minimum wage supermarket cashiers: "Corporate Welfare Bums", it was called.

Just as in Canada,  The Right here is also full of Corporate Welfare Bums.  And a large number of this class (like a certain former resident of the White House) were, as the saying goes, born on third base but grew up believing they had hit a triple.  They talk it up about how hard work can make YOU rich just like them.  Hard work? Are you kidding me? I'd like to see one of them after, say, pulling a 12-hour shift on their feet waitressing at Denny's.  But there are just as many Limousine Liberals who share their opponent's lack of qualms about using the coercive power of the gov't to make the world conform to their idea of how things should be.

Both are antithetical to liberty.

As my own take on libertarianism has its roots more in, say, Henry Miller and Charles Bukowski  than in Alisa Rosenbaum Ayn Rand, I've never had aspirations to hobnob with the Captains of Industry and other obnoxious entrepreneurs down at Galt's Gulch.  My libertarian response to "Who is John Galt?" has always been: WHO CARES?

Interesting stuff there, Billy.

I wanted to be sure that I am not dealing with the Ayn Rand variety--although to be fair to you, I would've been shocked if you were one of those 'virtues of selfishness' types--because like any ideology or movement, Libertarianism truly does have countless flavours. I generally have to deal with the annoying task of running into the typical corporate apologists who'd much rather excuse the affluent bums while exercising the most heinous and capricious forms of Victorian classist judgement over the weak and the less fortunate.

Put it another way: It's the person, the idealist, that makes their own ideology, not the other way around and I am pleased to hear of your views in more detail. Often I run into the aspiring--I'm all about liberty--types, before they quickly descend into a diatribe about the ineptitude of the lower classes that are holding them back from realising their nation-sized 'Gentlemen's Club'. So in this regard, I myself am not all that different from you, but I take my stand against what is taking place in political practice. As you can understand, there's a form of Pop Libertarianism--something Stella took reference to earlier--that's essentially nothing more than a reactionary disdain for everyone else, and it has become the staple of the Tea Party and its overlords, with quite a bit of its scathingly reeking, reactionary rhetoric being gleefully imported into the Paleo paradigm.

I mean, writers like Henry Miller and Charles Bukowski would hardly even emerge on the radar of most of these wannabe-elitists. I don't think they even know what they're talking about, and quite intentionally so, as they belong to the 'I'm alright, Jack' school of thought. I think you get the point. In your case, I'm picking up on a strong notion of a humane and sober form of pragmatic Libertarianism that I hardly ever hear about in the face of constant: "Who cares about the Koch brothers?! It's all Obummer's fault! See, I contorted the libtards name, I've demonstrated the height of my intellectual fortitude." Your branch of the ideology, which I'm afraid to say is a shrinking and preferred minority, actually stands for something that many of these mainstream, right-bend Libertarians selfishly oppose. It's a double-sided approach to dismantling the vices of rampant crony capitalism and the invasive and selective governmental devices that it carefully erects for its own convenient ends. There is a possibility that beyond the broad-spectrum of semantics and labels of the discussion, you and I may well share quite a bit of political common ground.

Furthermore, I sympathise with your reaction to these comments because you feel passionate about a cause. It's just a shame that the concept of this cause has been lost as its label has fallen prey to the mass-marketed agenda of a very insidious cult of self-serving demagogues. I guess another reason why pigeon-holing individuals and assigning general labels tend to suck.

You said, "My libertarian response to "Who is John Galt?" has always been: WHO CARES?"

Ha! Ha! Nice one!
billy the k said…
Thanks, man.
For the sake of our dignity, it's good to remember to keep at hand Henry Miller's usual response to all would-be  prevailers:

"F**k you and the horse YOU rode in on, Jack!"
billy the k said…
Forgot to add: you mentioned "a humane and sober from of pragmatic Libertarianism..."

The term I found most accurate is the one I saw first used by Las Vegas
Art & Culture critic Dave Hickey to describe his own politics:
he called himself a bleeding heart libertarian.

(Yeah, that still sounds about right.)
NEPAer said…
"Contrary to delusions....."? And then you go off on a long diatribe about Jimmy Moore and talk about him in the next several posts.
carbsane said…
HE has been dinging me. The next several posts?

From time to time when Jimmy makes an ass of himself he needs to be called out.
carbsane said…
It's sad she is an "expert" as well.
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