There's no dietary need for saturated fat ...
Random Bump!
Original Publish Date: 6/15/12
There's no dietary need for saturated fat ...
... or monounsaturated fats, MUFA, for that matter. Therefore low fat diets, where most of the fat is essential PUFA, are optimal. The body can make all the SF and MUFA we need from carbohydrates. Furthermore, relying on this metabolic pathway as a source of body fat is metabolically advantageous for weight management as making fat from carbohydrate is an energy intensive process.
Original Publish Date: 6/15/12
There's no dietary need for saturated fat ...
... or monounsaturated fats, MUFA, for that matter. Therefore low fat diets, where most of the fat is essential PUFA, are optimal. The body can make all the SF and MUFA we need from carbohydrates. Furthermore, relying on this metabolic pathway as a source of body fat is metabolically advantageous for weight management as making fat from carbohydrate is an energy intensive process.
Sounds a little silly, right? I think so. But so, too, is the ridiculous mantra from low carbers citing the fact (true) that there's no dietary necessity for carbohydrate. You know the drill, we can make all the glucose we need by gluconeogenesis (just saying that makes me feel smarter) therefore LC diets are optimal. There is a metabolic advantage built into LC diets because gluconeogenesis requires energy to convert protein to glucose.
And then there's the teaspoon crowd. You know them, the ones touting the whole "you only have a teaspoon of glucose in circulation at any time" meme, that makes you think eating a normal carb load will explode your brain. That's based on this calculation:
I repeated that calculation for NEFA which is a little more complicated as fatty acids come in different masses/sizes so converted molar concentrations are more approximate. Still, using typical fasting levels of 400 µmol/L and 250 g/mol as the molecular weight of the fatty acid (palmitic acid for example if 256):
Do they make 1/10th teaspoons? OK, those calculations are a repeat, but when you keep hearing the whole teaspoon thing, it bears repeating the calculation for fatty acids as well. It is largely irrelevant, but just as postprandial glucose levels can be spiked by dietary glucose w/o appropriate metabolic response and clearance, so too postprandial NEFA levels can spike w/o the appropriate metabolic response to trap and prevent inappropriate release from adipose.
But let's go back to the "dietary need" argument shall we? There is no dietary need for carbohydrate, but the body goes to great lengths to conserve glucose when availability is low, and to protect against too low a level. Thus, in all humans, gluconeogenesis occurs at significant rates for varying periods during every day. This is higher in low carbers with depleted glycogen stores to provide some of the glucose the liver must produce. Indeed it appears that gluconeogenesis is an "always on" process that is largely regulated via suppression. Apparently our need for dietary fatty acids is nowhere near as necessary. De novo lipogenesis, DNL, is a minor path in humans and difficult to stimulate to anywhere near significance absent substantial and chronic overfeeding. Furthermore, unlike glucose, the absence of fatty acids in the diet does not stimulate their synthesis. We go to great lengths to expend energy to make sure glucose is available, we go through no such lengths to make sure fatty acids are ...
Now I'm not saying this really means anything. Rather my point is that all of the glucophobic mantras intended to scare you into ketotic shock are rather meaningless as well.
Commemorative Teaspoons now available in the Asylum Gift Shop!
Comments
Karen
So maybe the people purposely going into ketosis not getting the results they want is because their body is overcompensating from their lack of dietary glucose and thus they're actually in essence getting more glucose than if they just went ahead and ate some potatoes/rice/preferred carb with every meal?
At first, as I was reading the subject line and first paragraph, I thought, "Um, did Evelyn sustain a head injury recently?" ; ) I should have known you were making a point.
Do you need potato's/rice/pastry/pasta/bread in your diet to be healthy? remember, no talking about molecules! Only foods.
And for that I need carbs.
_____
one diet does indeed provide the correct ratios of everything ...
There are risks of course ... Kuru is one.
Among the symptoms I believe[0] it makes one shave one's head and do things exactly at the same time one protests that they can't be done.
[0] facetiously
That said, at 300 lbs, 20 lbs in 30 days is nothing new for Jimmy. I think it has very little to do with ketosis, and everything to do with needing to eat pretty cleanly to maintain such levels. He also mentioned IF again ... which he did in Jan 2011 with his beef and CO diet. Point of reference, when I first did IF in 2009, my weight had crept up to 213 (being good on LC) and I lost 10 lbs in 2 weeks even having higher carbs every 4th day. He's not putting numbers to protein intake, but he said it's pretty low. Lean mass losses too?
Tell me your situation, and I'll give anyone half-dozen better things to spend $450 on than blood ketone testing strips. It saddens me he's encouraging others to follow suit, and shame on Volek & Phinney (and Attia) for promoting an 80-90% fat, essentially zero carb diet, where not therapeutically necessary. Sorry but that is incompatible with paleo too. No way we evolved on such a diet ... even the Inuit didn't eat that way. I'm sure someone will challenge this, but there are no long term studies of humans eating this way. None. The ones I know of on epileptics followed the diet for like an average of 10 years and were no longer on the diet for like 6 months when the testing was done. Meanwhile, there innumerable cultures who consumed the opposite -- single digit fat & protein and high carbs to support those who choose to eat in that fashion (sorry, not for me either, but perhaps there's an n=1 in my future).
My prediction? The novelty will wear off, Jimmy will rationalize (if he hasn't already) that cream cheese is very high fat, low protein & carb ... and start whipping up "cheesecakes" like the old days (tub of whip cream, flavor and artificial sweetener), though perhaps with stevia as homage to the paleo gods, plateau out in another 10 lbs or so, add a veggie to his diet, knock himself out of ketosis, blame the veggie. Well, if history is any indication that is. I hope for his sake this doesn't happen, but Jimmy hasn't changed so I don't see that the outcome will here either.
I don't think one gets hyperglycemic, but when you think about it, when you eat fat and protein without carbs, your blood glucose should go DOWN, and perhaps rebound a bit over fasting, but it should not "spike" as many see, especially with protein. This is (probably) the same unchecked postprandial glucose production in the liver that occurs in LIRKO.
And yes, I lump "real" foods like potato's in with flour based refined stuff for the above reason.
Unfortunately, testing RER by respiratory gas analysis costs an arm & a leg.
"costs an arm & a leg"
At that point, half-armed and half-legged, your activity level decreases.
It is a Catch 22.
May we now address you as Major Major Major Major Major Major Major Kinbrun?
Slainte
Absolutely not! My surname is Kinbrum :-D
I've listened to many of Jimmy Moore's podcasts and as I've learned more and more biology/biochemistry (college student looking for a Bachelor's in Bio. and graduate school for neurobiology or immunology), I find my annoyance level creeping up ever steadily when I hear his 'experts' inform me that potatoes will make my cells resistant to all manner of things, including leptin, insulin, and happiness. Though i think Jimmy is probably a decent guy, his judgment is so very clouded by the low-carb world. Interestingly enough however, the other end of the spectrum--Matt Stone and his attempt at 'science'--tends to be more potent of an aneurysm stimulator for me personally; I guess I'm just generally pissed off, who knows.
With that said, I find this site beyond refreshing. Though the pixelation of the site's background drives me up the wall (OCD much), I very much enjoy your frequent writings. Keep it going, this is awesome.
Thanks,
-Ian
Nobody needs to eat any food or food group. I refuse to be bullied by absolutists into believing I am only "allowed" to eat what I "need" ... especially when evaluated by someone else's arbitrary standard.
As to the background, the butterfly was something I wanted there for reasons I outlined in the Welcome. The original is quite dark and somewhat "pixelated" to begin with because it is a needlepoint. I used a program that "screened" it in white so it didn't seem so morbid despite the bright colors. That does seem more pixelated. I've since found some other ways to manipulate graphics -- so when I'm in the mood to play, I'll try and do a brightened/fade so it is very light. Until then, this is why the text is dark gray on white for the most part. You can expand to fit the browser window or resize the window to block the background.
The blood plasma NEFA concentrations vary with time following ingestion of a fatty meal between 0.1 & 5mm/L according to a chart in Keith Frayn’s textbook Metabolic Regulation, Chart 7.8 . So your value of 0.5g of fatty acid concentration is a maximum according to that chart and only at 6 hours after a meal (the concentration keeps rising with length of fast to several times the 6 hr max). BTW I am very grateful for your recommendation of Frayn’s book and papers and consider that the most useful contribution to my understanding of metabolism. For those interested, you can see the charts at wiley.com/go/frayn but not the textbook. I hope you return to your “normal” blogging mode and away from debunking. I appreciate the effort you put into explanations.
My personal experience seems to differ from that of many of your readers in that I was never significantly overweight. However I am able to clearly observe effects of eating patterns on aging biomarkers. In general my “explanations” accord with your view but in my I see more variables (which seem to be interdependent).
Good point you made. The first half where you mentioned carbs did nothing to me, then the part about the steak made me drool and yearn to eat. Me thinks you are on to something.
I don't care if they are "nice guys/girls" I'm not hanging out with them and don't really desire a relationship (although I think it would be fun to do karaoke with MC Triple Chin. Watching him rap You Be Illin on the LC cruise was entertaining, in a vomit inducing way), so as far as I'm concerned they can be mean old hermits that rape the fields and pillage the women. What I want is for them to be honest with the information they give out. Help people instead of being self serving fame whores.
______
but .... but .... look at all the benefits. If you eat no carbs you can have
rainbows for flatulence
frankincense for underarm sweat
myrrh for foot sweat
Teuscher chocolate for cr*p (dissolved in the finest cream when you have diarrhea)
IOW- you fart rainbows, shit chocolate, smell nice & pee beer (root beer in the US til you're 21 - or go to Montreal or Tijuana for the real thing)
I'll leave "other" fluids to the imagination ; )
I do like a good frosty mug of A&W "pee beer", they make it tasty. I do have quite the imagination as do you.
Cheers
Have you ever eaten isocaloric portions of steak and potatoes on different days, then compared your weight, so you can confidently say that potatoes make you "gain weight like crazy?"
Btw, did anybody ever figure out the mystery of Atkin's weight gain before he died? The last I heard, his weight actually was normal on his admittance record. Could all his massive weight gain have been from glucose in the IV and water? AFAIK, it's all clouded because the widow wouldn't release his records - which creates suspicion, of course. Like Taubes not taking the lipid panel on Oz and then showing up many weeks later with his own report.
From my perspective (not a LCer), Atkins is really just another n=1.
Actually according to the referenced chart NEFA rises between meals and Frayn explains this in para 7.2.1 ( I assume you have the text). What is interesting is the partition of energy (per day) from glucose & NEFA which Frayn gives in Box7.1; NEFA/Glucose: 6100/3200 kJ. Presumably this calculation is based on 3 meals/day Frayn uses elsewhere. So if NEFA continues to rise during the fasted state, longer intervals between feeding would result in greater use of NEFA by cells other than adipose tissue. This may be relevant to intermittent fasting and fat loss. How do you interpret this?
The below paper relates as well. It made Editor’s Choice in Science and is behind a paywall, but the lead author is very accommodating.
Time-Restricted Feeding without Reducing Caloric Intake Prevents Metabolic Diseases in Mice Fed a High-Fat Diet, Megumi Hatori, et al 1Salk Institute for Biological Studies, La Jolla, CA 92037, USA 2Department of Gastroenterology, University of California, San Diego, etc
NEFA levels, lipolysis, does NOT dictate fatty acid oxidation rates. This is the whole hokum word game trick low carb "scientists" try to pull. Even Taubes acknowledges that NEFA are always released and present in excess, and if they are not used, they are taken back up and re-esterified. Even those taken up by muscle aren't necessarily burnt for fuel, they can be, and are, esterified and stored in lipid droplets in those cells until needed. What dictates the rate of fat oxidation is the energy state of the organism.
Which brings me to the Hatori paper. I have the full text and if you want to email me, I'll gladly share it. I also have another paper that was similar, but looked at low fat and high fat diets with a slightly different feeding window ... AND assessed energy expenditure and activity. Guess where I'm going with that ... that's right, the intermittent fat fasters moved more than the rats who ate fat all day and all night long. I hope to get to blogging on those studies in the next month. If I forget, feel free to drop hints in comments or email!
Thanks for the reply. I am looking at the 2010 edition of the text and Fig 7.8. You can see this chart at wiley.com/go/frayn per my Jun 16 post. Clearly in that chart NEFA rise in exp fashion and not very shallow. Understand that I am a student (even though 73 yo) so I am not challenging anyone’s science. I quote from page180 of my edition: ”The overall rate of utilization of non-esterified fatty acids from plasma depends almost entirely on the plasma concentration: the higher the concentration on non-esterefied fatty acids, the higher their rate of utilization”. Further on Frayn amplifies the above statement so in my mind there is no question he means uptake of NEFA.
I do have the paper and am quite puzzled by it. I do not understand why metabolic cycles correlate with circadian rhythms. BUT my personal experience (nothing to do with overweight, my BMI is 22) supports benefits of extended time between meals.
Best
I would like to continue this discussion with you but it seems that this topic is not of general interest. I have no particular theory to push beyond trying to interpret my nutrition experiments. I would appreciate your critique. If of interest to you please send me your e-mail.
Best
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Nathan Pritikin died with perfectly clean arteries, as reported here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Pritikin
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