You, PCS vs. Jack Kruse MD, DDS

I'm going through a period of intense disillusionment with the state of this larger diet/nutrition/fitness ancestral/paleo/whole-foods/LC community on the internet and beyond.  By far the greatest contributor to this disillusionment has got to be the meteoric rise of one Dr. Jack Kruse, NEUROSURGEON! , although there are certainly others adding to the malaise.  

The other day I forced myself to re-read -- more slowly this time -- his Holy Trinity post from the night of his Paleo Summit presentation.  Now, apparently Quack Frost (there are just so many good names for this guy, I have to rotate them for him!) has some inside information on how Lance Armstrong trains in the cold.  And Phelps too?  He implies that he does.  But in the Paleo Summit he states affirmatively that Phelps spends 18 hours a day in a 50 degree pool.  This is how myths start, because I just Googled "Phelps cold adaptation" and I come across this.  Folks I don't have a medical degree.  I was, however, a swim instructor, pool rat and lifeguard in my yoot (as My Cousin Vinny would say).   So I suppose one could claim that I have some special experience that qualifies me to know that nobody trains in anything near 50 degree swimming pools.  And yet it turns out that most people know this, even if it's from a report that says so-and-so went missing in 65 degree water with the dire prognosis of survival.  The fact that a doctor would even say this, let alone repeat it (Phelps is cited over 10 times in the Holy Trinity post alone) is disillusioning in and of itself.  That others seem to accept this without skepticism is disheartening.  That still others now repeat it as fact, moreso.

I'm recalling from my Olympic "feel good" coverage, that Phelps is the child of a single mom of limited means who sacrificed greatly for him to be able to train.  Although he's now (though he did his best to blow quite a bit of it) famous and enriched by his success, training in a 50 or even a 60 degree pool for however many hours defies logic.  No facility would keep their pool at anywhere near that temperature even if some young speedy swimming whippersnapper promised dreams of gold, because nobody else would use the pool.  Even if he could now afford it, how did he get to where he's at?  As a normal warm adapted mammal that's how.  Sure, he spends a lot of time in water colder than his body ... but not anywhere near 50 degrees.   NOBODY swims in 50 degree water for any length of time on any sort of regular basis without an insulating wetsuit.  The cold plunge at my recent vacation spot was at 60 degrees.  

So You, PCS --  those letters you've earned stand for Practitioner of Common Sense -- Practice your hard earned degree!

Ahhhh but perhaps Dr. Duvet simply misspoke there.  I don't think so because he's evoked Phelps name over and over.  What makes his swimming ability so superior?  Do not all the other swimmers also train in water cooler than 98.6F?  But let's move on to another claim by Leptin Man MD, DDS.

Next up we get the "freeze your ass off" theory of cold thermogenesis and weight loss.  In this part of the theory Jack tells us that cold adaptation or therapy or whatever leads to the die-off -- or that big word "apoptosis" -- of fat cells.   Now I'm going to ask you this, and go dust off and don your PCS cap and gown first before answering.  What evolutionary advantage would there be to a mammal that evolved in the cold (as Frosty claims) to have it's subcutaneous fat cells die off thereby making it more susceptible to the cold?  If we are indeed cold-weather mammals, who are supposed to reconnect with our cold-water brethren, what do You, PCS know of cold water mammals?  Ummmm .... they have lots of subcutaneous fat, aka blubber!  The purpose of which is to insulate them from the cold!  So, exercise your hard earned degree and reject this woo woo!  In his Underground Wellness Radio interview with Sean Croxton, Kamal from PaleoHacks called in and asked him specifically about this.  Leptin Man claims that applying cold to the skin in the form of 50 degree water is the same as killing off fat cells by essentially freezing them.  And Kruse stood fast that the mechanism was the same.  He evoked the fact that Koreans who had frostbite on their faces never regenerated the tissue or something like that.  Does this make any sense to you, common or otherwise??  On his blog he cites a study done on pigs.  They subjected the pigs to sub-freezing temperatures (-1, -3, -5 and -7 deg C) applied locally to skin, for relatively short periods of time (10 min) under anesthesia. This apparently killed off some fat cells without damaging the skin. How on earth this applies to ice water baths causing fat cells to release leptin I'll never know and I'm thinking You, PCS can see the difference as well.

On to the crux of the super dud Kruse missile.  What does a blast of cold do to you?  You, a warm blooded human being that is ... cold adapted or otherwise.  It, as the term "thermogenesis" implies, causes your body to shunt fuel use towards generating heat ... to keep you warm.  The studies that demonstrate reduced temperature extends lifespan have mostly been done in cold blooded animals (like our worm friends).  They live longer in cooler environments because it slows their metabolic rate.  Now remember, this CT stuff is for longevity and weight loss.  Jack claims that at Restaurant Depot he walks into the freezer and undresses down to his t shirt and when he comes out he's bright red and his skin is hot to the touch.  He also talks about lighting your internal pilot light.  This is true I suppose, if a bit exaggerated.  But it is also counter to the life extending reduction in core temperature.  I simply cannot muddle through all of his ramblings on CT to see if he actually suggests you cool your brain as well, but the fact of the matter is, to cool the core of a warm blooded animal, you have to trick the thermostat in the brain into thinking the body is warmer than it really is -- exactly the opposite of sitting in ice baths will do for your metabolism.  Jack MD, DDS does not see this although several folks have called him on it and tried to get him to understand that thermogenesis does not reduce one's core temperature.  I'm thinking You, PCS do, but just in case, I have one study for you in a warm blooded mouse.  They were able to lower the core temperature 
by increasing uncoupling in a region of the brain, generating heat near the "thermostat" in the hypothalamus.  Sensing warm temperatures, the hypothalamus doesn't send out the signals to the furnace -- the BAT in mice -- to warm the core.    The mice had lower energy expenditure, lower core temperatures, and lived longer.   It is not known if the mice sensed feeling cold all the time ....

Speaking of common sense ...

Quack Frost likes to jibber jabber about thermal coefficients and such.  If you missed it, I discussed some of this in Quantum Bullshit, but that was more about the electron nonsense.  Basically he talks about manipulating the thermal coefficient of the environment.  I finally figured out what he was trying to say, which is basic physics.   The rate of transfer of thermal energy depends on several factors:
  1. Temperature gradient -- faster the larger the temperature differential between two bodies
  2. Surface area of contact -- directly related
  3. Thermal conductivity of the bodies
I think the last one is the coefficient he's talking about.  It's why you can survive for a lot longer in freezing air (32F, 0C) than in ice water at the same temperature.  Numbers 2&3 are why your  beer gets colder faster if you dunk it in ice water vs. packing it in ice cubes vs. sticking it in the freezer.   (Those quick cool gizmos that spin a can in ice water are pretty neat!  And I'm not sure where Jack gets that ice water is 8 degrees F warmer than ice ...)  In any case, Jack discussed in his interview these coefficients again -- another Quiltism is that he talks conduction of cold repeatedly which you learn in any basic physical science class is not how it works.  Cold is the absence of heat.  Thermal energy flows from relatively warmer to relatively cooler.  Many engineering majors will take a class called Heat Transfer, not Cold Conduction!  But I digress ... 

Leptin Man as a boy in NYC?
So when asked how to do this CT stuff,  Jack talks about how you can do it with air but that it is very inefficient to get cold adapted.  So instead he got tens of pounds of ice and put them in a tub of water and immersed himself for two to four hours a night!  Yes you heard that right.  But what's funnier is that he talks of how metal is an even more efficient conductor ... and then ... with a chuckle .... he actually cautions people not to use metal to do this!  That's right, folks.  Don't try this at home!!  And why?  Because you see Dr. "I'm a Brain Surgeon" Duvet, Jack Kruse MD, DDS apparently did.  Although he doesn't give details, one gets the impression that little experiment didn't end well.    I'm quite sure You, PCS would not try this.  

OK ... Seriously now.  For those not aware, Jack Kruse has taken his schtick to a new level with a paid membership site.  For free you can be a Kruse Kruiser, for $48/month a Kruse Karnivore, and for $248/month you can be in the Kruse Klub.  Now nobody is forcing anyone to part with their money, but something like this only happens when enough people in positions of influence give a person like Kruse a podium of respect.  He was part of the Paleo Summit,  the inspirational keynote speaker at PaleoFX (in addition to giving a speech), he'll be speaking at TEDx Nashville, he's speaking on the Low Carb Cruise, and he'll be speaking at the Ancestral Health Symposium.  This is a travesty in my opinion.  I've covered the more "physical sciencey" stuff here, and will continue to do so.  Do also go please read Melissa McEwen's Uses and Misuses of Evolutionary Biology where she covers that angle.   Others are beginning to speak out about this and I think it's important that the volume get turned up.

As a formerly obese person who has struggled with my weight for decades, the one thing I cannot sit back and watch happen without speaking out about, it's taking advantage of obese people for profit.  Let me be clear here.  I have NO problem with people making a living and charging for their services.  Nobody owes anyone anything for free, and that includes those who have something valuable to say to help others improve their lives, be it healthy eating, fitness, performance, weight management, etc.  I do have a serious issue with separating often desperate people from their money with false promises and quackery.  The formerly obese, and worse yet the still obese, doing it just truly disgusts me.   I cannot and will not stand by silently when I see it happening.


ProudDaddy said…
Does coming from a state with the loon as the official state bird give me greater gravitas to say that we are dealing with a seriously addled motor-mouth!? I would have thought that only half a brain and a seventh-grade science course would be required to see through all the nonsense, so my respect for the paleo community was severely diminished even before you pointed it out.
PCS? Love it ... it's a new meme!

Re Kruse and CT, I suspect there are some parallels to Taubes and LC. Following the protocol appears to show results, so it becomes important to construct a plausible mechanism for why this is so.

As someone commented somewhere, folks who are willing to pile buckets of ice on themselves are probably pretty motivated. But I suspect there are hormetic benefits to periodic CT per Todd Becker.

I think the TED appearance may prove to be problematic for Dr. Kruse (the comment about injecting MRSA being one pretty jaw-dropping admission).

So changing your DNA with a thought? Or as a person at TED tweeted, "listening to the origin story of a super-villain" ... hmmm.
Unknown said…
There's actually a long hx of athletes using ice baths to hasten recovery after working out. Or before. I forget. But… I don't know. That anyone could read even one of Kruse's blog posts and not run away is beyond me. The very first thing I thought was that coldwater mammals are chunky, as are Siberians (to some extent), and frankly Olympic swimmers have a bit more fat on them than, say, the tropically trained sprinters. But I don't even go too much beyond that because why bother? If I'm going to try to sort the garbage of someone else's deluded fantasies I might as well go back to the beginning and look it up myself. The TEDx talk was apparently quite scary. I did not see it myself, but have read a transcript (confirmed by several sources who did see it), and it should be available in a month or so. He claims to have undergone a 6 hour surgery without pain pills or anesthesia via the power of cold, while dousing himself with MRSA. The whole thing sounds like a confabulation. And have you ever spent any time around surgeons? They are obessed with germs in the operating field, and rightly so. To have a surgeon deliberately contaminate his skin prior to surgery is like seeing a monk set fire to his temple.

Scary stuff.
Unknown said…
And where do you get MRSA? Culture it from a dirty swab in your fridge on agar? Maybe in bone broth? Steal it from the hospital micro lab? Seriously!!!!
Lesley Scott said…
"If we are indeed cold-weather mammals, who are supposed to reconnect with our cold-water brethren, what do You, PCS know of cold water mammals? Ummmm .... they have lots of subcutaneous fat, aka blubber! The purpose of which is to insulate them from the cold!" I know that Mat Lalonde, who in addition to PCS has some serious chemistry credentials to his name said in a recent podcast that this soaking-in-ice stuff will actually cause the body to adapt by, yes, padding you up with an additional layer of fat. Honestly, why people listen to this LeptinQuiltQuack nonsense & now apparently pay handsomely for it is beyond me.

The Kung Fu grip, perhaps?
Kindke said…
I tried the cold water immersion stuff myself last summer ( wouldnt dare try it in the winter ), I dont think I noticed any changes in body composition per se, but then again I could only bring myself to do it once per week because it was immensely stressful not to mention painful.

Not only that, I noticed an intense spike in hunger about 1 hour after getting out the bath.

There can be no doubt thermogenesis is how we expend most of our calories but I seriously doubt cold water immersion would be effective strategy for reducing adiposity. Unless your someone who loves PAIN, that is.
I find the concept of hormetic CT (rather than chronic CT) plausible. Perhaps this is what's at work in applying cold to the skin briefly as a non-surgical liposuction of sorts:

And it also seems plausible that CT could fill in for what used to be our normal seasonal adaptation to cold. I.e., evolutionarily, we used to alternate heat with cold, and feast with famine. Now we never have either cold (thanks to artificial environments) or famine. So while sure, as mammals we're warm-adapted, perhaps never experiencing cold is like never needing to burn fat b/c of hypercaloric diets. Maybe over time it has an effect.

That said, I would far prefer to cold adapt seasonally by walking outside in the winter every day! I have a high pain threshold, but it ain't that high ;).
Kindke said…
It is my theory that any extra calories expanded in thermogenesis due to extreme cold exposure is compensated for by increased appetite.

Not only is my appetite much higher in Winter, but my experiments of sitting in the bath and running the cold water tap up to my head for 30 minutes convinced me of this.
Unknown said…
I accidentally discovered another source recommending cold showers yesterday. I was looking for an explanation for the term "Buteyko Breathing" which I saw in a comment on Chris Kresser's blog. Here's a link to what I found:

I was fascinated to read the article and shook my head because the topic is so current in the paleosphere.

It goes without saying that I found nothing beyond vague references to "research."
Anonymous said…
There are no "sources" of MRSA. If there were a laboratory source one could legitimately access, and one were to actually expose oneself or others to it. that would almost undoubtedly be a criminal offense of some kind in the public health realm.

MRSA is a killer in the wrong host.

Kruse had better hope that any medical regulatory bodies in his state assume he is telling a lie, or he is in big trouble with that kind of talk.

What an irresponsible Carny barker. Like joking about HIV or Hep C to get attention.

It's time to put this Klown out of our misery somehow and it looks like he is quite busy doing it to himself.
Sue said…
Sisson should take responsibility for allowing all that leptin talk to take over MDA forum.
Anonymous said…
I'm guessing you don't live in the upper midwest. Even with central heat, the temperature extremes we put up with in routine daily life are a pretty robust stimulus. By Kruse's theory, Ice fisherman and bowhunters in my state would live to be 100. I assure you they do not.
Anonymous said…
I thought DeVany was into cold showers for hormesis years ago.
George said…
The term "paleotard" is looking more and more apt with every passing day.

Also, athletes who use "ice baths" to reduce inflammation after training typically keep the water temperature at around 50 degrees, and stay in the bath for 10-15 MINUTES. From experience I can tell you that it is not fun, and while you are able to cope with it a little better after a while, it still is absolutely hellish.

That dude is full of equine excrement.
bentleyj74 said…
Friendly neighborhood former pacific islander chiming in to mention that seasonal extremes are not "the norm" among all [most?] healthy and long lived populations. The artificial environments are attempting to mimic a natural environment that is both comfortable and associated with good health for a variety of reasons. We "can" populate climates that aren't really all that hospitable but why recreate the parts that suck rather than the parts that don't and are already well accepted to be beneficial? I can swim in January thanks to the same artifice that heats my house without even getting malaria :)
CarbSane said…
I do find the viral nature of that thread interesting. One would think Sisson would have cut it off long ago ... no? So one can assume he got something from the now over a million views. So yeah, I think he has some responsibility in this.
Kamal said…
Clearly you two did not catch the point of this. A TED talk right before April Fools' Day with a doctor self-injecting MRSA before a (tummy tuck? lipo?) in order to lose the weight he secretly gained on an unhealthy diet while avoiding all pain and infection, thereby proving his mastery of reality? TED just klowned us!

But in reality, Kruse is made of teflon. I know in my heart of hearts that this will gain him attention and followers to his website. You just don't get that popular in the mainstream by giving prudent advice.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Good work! Really missed James Krieger's "Bullshit Detective".
Nigel Kinbrum said…
I believe that our appetites increase a *lot* when we feel cold, in order to make us gain some sub-Q fat for heat insulation purposes.

That is how low-intensity exercise (done outside with insufficient clothing) works up an appetite.
CarbSane said…
The science of cold therapy for weight loss is pretty sound. If one can handle being cold, they will expend more calories to keep warm. I'm repeating myself but I'm absolutely certain that between time spent in the pool and several cold plunges a day offset eating more (and drinking) on my recent vacation. I think Beth is spot on ... it's Jack trying to put a new spin on something that can work for some people.

As much as I could tolerate and even enjoyed the cold plunge, it was mostly because I got out and went out into the 80+ degree warmth or into a steam room afterwards. We keep the house pretty cold in the winter and the thought of even a cold shower burst for 5 seconds makes me antsy!!

FWIW, it's around 45 degrees outside tonight and I'm sitting in my house with a fire going. It's probably 70 in this room. Jack claimed in the UWR interview that he was in his mancave with a fire going and it was 50 degrees. Ummmm ... C'mon!
ProudDaddy said…
Also living in Minnesota, I can attest that the the rate of obesity shows no advantage to freezing our butts off.
Sue said…
He must of got something from it. What about the leptin book they were supposedly writing together??
Sanjeev said…
Me too

There are always James Randi and Steve Novella,

And in your neck of the woods who can ever overlook Drs Singh and Goldacre?
Sanjeev said…
There's the problem.

They need to use dry ice or liquid nitrogen.

Pansies, the lot of them.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Dr Ben Goldacre hasn't touched Taubes or Kruse.
He *has* touched Zoe Harcombe (ooh-err, missus!).

I don't know who Dr Singh is.
Sanjeev said…
The guy the British chiropractors sued, and the lawsuit was a big factor for reforming the libel laws. I'll have to look up the status of that tomorrow.

His doctorate's in physics

When one fights with frauds of amounting to hundreds of millions like chiroquactic & the homeoquackery, tiny Quancktum (combine quack with quantum - would the plural be quanckta?) like Kruze & Taubes may not register.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Singh's home page is now bookmarked, thanks.
Goldacre dealt with tiny Harcombe. Mind you, she's British, unlike Taubes & Kruse. We still need Carbwoman!
Carbsane, at this point you and Melissa McEwan have spent enough time on the Quilt. Even though it must be great fun for you. You don't see Mark Steyn spending much time on Kim Kardashian, and for good reason. Apply your prodigious intellect and writing skills to other matters.

Congats on another outstanding and humerous post. I read you often, but don't often comment. Keep up the good work.

Wright Mind said…
Ditto for North Dakota, where obesity rates have increased considerably over the past two decades. Many of the so-called cold states don't fare too well. See
CarbSane said…
Your point's well taken Steve. I can only hope that I won't have to spend much time on Jack in the future and those in positions to elevate him in the community will think twice. I didn't realize that TEDx talk was Sat. night. Here are the notes someone took:

The claims of deliberately gaining 25 pounds to have elective surgery (there is speculation over whether it was lipo or more) and injecting MRSA really boggle the mind.

Unfortunately there's a new meme being used by Kruse's defenders that his critics just don't understand his brilliant mind and theories and he's being given the Taubes pass -- who cares if he's not 100% right, it works so ... Hopefully we'll hear less of that as more become aware of just how out there his claims are getting.
CarbSane said…
PS Hu-yoooge Mark Steyn fan!
Keenan said…
"This finding suggests that CON dorsiflexion strength in the ankle may be adversely affected immediately after ice immersion application."

"Core temperature rose significantly (0.3 °C) during ice bath immersion but a similar increase also occurred in the control condition. Therefore, cold water immersion caused a significant decrease in sprint cycling performance with one-hour recovery between tests."
Unknown said…
That's funny, I used to kayak whitewater and when you are immersed in 50 degree water it hits you like a punch to the chest, it's freaking COLD.
CarbSane said…
That's just because you're all VitD deficient ;) Kruse was going on and on about how one should blast their AC in their faces, etc. etc. My hubs and I wage war over the AC in the summer b/c he doesn't tolerate heat very well. He likes to set the AC too low -- 65 would be his preference -- but I don't even know if our AC could cool our room down below 60! In any case, I don't like the cold because it makes me tired and lazy. In my weight cycling days I always gained weight in the winter and lost it in the summer -- whether or not I was in/out of pools all the time.
CarbSane said…
Welcome George! Kinda makes the claims of ice baths for 2-4 hours a bit much to swallow, eh?
CarbSane said…
It was called the plunge at my resort for a reason -- there's no slowly lowering yourself into that water and that was only 60 degrees. It does sort of take your breath away and almost hurts.
Armi Legge said…
Hey Emily, you're right about athletes using cold for recovery, but the research doesn't support it. So far, cold therapy has been extremely weak for hastening recovery. Although, NFL athletes still use supplemental oxygen too, so I guess they aren't too concerned with what the research says.

You're also dead on about Dr. Kruse. Couldn't' agree more.
Frosty said…
Great. It you are going to keep calling this bozo "Frosty", I'm going to have to change my username (which I had way before he started this BS).
CarbSane said…
Sorry! I'll stick to Quack Frost >:)
Johnny said…
Whoa, I'm pretty sure that the idea that energy expended is compensated by increased appetite is a bullshit idea, pushed by Taube$. He invented the idea "working up an appetite" in the year 2004. Before that, the concept was unknown.

Right, CS?
Dan P said…
Please see Jack's comment on my polyphasic sleep post for Robb Wolf.

I was totally perplexed that a doctor or anyone for that matter could be so uninformed about fundamental scientific concepts.

Jack Kruse does not make ANY sense. I will not question his motives because I do not know the man; however, I am certain that he will only hurt, not help, people.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Re-read what I wrote above.

Any appetite increase from exercising outside is due to *feeling* *cold*, not increased energy expenditure.
Koofster said…
There is a thread on Dr Kruse's blog suggesting he be nominated for a Nobel prize for his MRSA experiment. MRSA is an extremely dangerous organism that can cause a multitude of serious infections. Introducing this in an operating room is terrible. I can't believe this is true
Sue said…
He didn't reply back to your comment. He doesn't like to explain his reasoning for recommending or doing certain things. I am going back to read your two,part post now - looks interesting.
Anonymous said…
@Bentley74 - Exaclty. It's not like homo moved into cold climates and took a few thousand years to come up with the idea of shelters and wearing fur and building fires, is it? Trying to even out the extremes has been part of the whole spreading around the whole planet bit from the git-go. Our metabolism works in a narrow internal temperature range and we die if we exceed it. It's called being warm- blooded.
Anonymous said…
If he claims he was up to his neck in ice water for 4 hours he is lying. Simple as that. Maybe he had his feet in the tub and a parka on at the same time. BTW, I was a completive swimmer in high school. The water is COLD if it is in the upper 70s.
Anonymous said…
I am authorized by Mark himself to tell you that the relationship between Kruse and SIsson was terminated immediately by Mark upon submission of the first draft, which as you can guess was basically totally loony nonsense.
Anonymous said…
It's as if Kruse has not noticed we have no fur.
Dan P said…
Thanks Sue. Didn't want to come across as self promotional here (hey, check out my post...) but it was my first exposure to this man and it left me baffled. It saddens me that he is given the platform (Paleo FX, AHS, TED) and considered a leader (by many) in the ancestral health arena.
CarbSane said…
@Nigel: I agree with your thoughts here -- perhaps some are more sensitive than others -- but if temperature alters appetite, cold should definitely increase it. Jack claims just the opposite, that the cold kills your appetite making the calorie restriction he advocates easier.

@dilly, that would be 2007, right? ;-)
CarbSane said…
Thanks for sharing that information Kurt. I am surprised anyone would even consider writing something with Jack as his writing is incomprehensible. The occasional typos and grammatical errors are to be expected in blogs and moreso in comments and on disco boards, and certainly for stuff composed on an iphone and such. But Jack's writing problems are not due to that stuff, they are just compounding the nonsense.
CarbSane said…
Welcome to the Asylum Dan! Feel free to link to your writings :)

Jack: In an evolutionary mindset maybe sleep is where we all start and evolution selected us to evolve wakefulness so we could explore our environment.

Dan: Does this mean that for thousands of generations people were lying around sleeping until one day a mutation caused someone to arouse and get coffee?


What Sue said here is so true ... Jack doesn't like to explain his reasoning. This is why I'm baffled at how popular his LR was over on Mark's forum and how many people tried it. It was never really concisely laid out, but mostly seemed to be a rip-off of another Leptin book (Byron?). I've no doubt that for many, eating a big ass protein loaded breakfast, not snacking and avoiding artificial light after dark can yield great benefits. But Jack never explained -- even if he made it up like Rosedale's "leptin spikes" -- how this reset one's leptin receptors. Only look in the mirror, if you're fat, your LR and need the reset. And if it doesn't work for you then you were probably LS all along. Ughh ...
CarbSane said…
Yes, Kurt, that's what I'm thinking. He told Sean he used 80 lbs of ice in his tub and was lying in it 2 to 4 hrs a night at first. It was a long interview/call in show that I cannot stomach listening to again ;)

Jack has a flair for exaggeration and he is a good story teller. I think a lot of people were drawn in by the endearing anecdotes about his childhood at the beginning of his Holy Trinity post. After reading those one tends to experience a mix of almost feeling sorry for him, wanting to believe him, almost rooting for him to be some sort of visionary. The reason I asked over on PaleoHacks what his age was is because I grew up outside of NYC. As it turns out we're about the same age. Those were not days when kids rode the subways alone and went to museums alone. Indeed it would be far more likely you'd see that these days than back then. Heck, if a kid wandered too far from the group on a class trip to the museum you can be sure some museum official would snag you and return you pronto! So I do not know Jack's motives for weaving tales, but when I read the preamble it just set off my bullshit alarms left and right.

But he's got that MD there and he's giving advice. And he's making dangerous statements like "good, you want to feel cold" and apparently numb is OK? He did also talk about how he supposedly convinced his brother in law to have that cryo fat procedure done (true?) and he was numb for like 6 months after??

I doubt the MRSA thing is true either. Unless he operated on himself in his own facility, I cannot imagine another doctor having anything to do with that experiment. So we're either dealing with a pathological liar here or a fool flirting dangerously with his grip on reality. The MRSA experiment is especially offensive to me. My Mom had knee replacement surgery almost a year ago and despite all safeguards contracted a staph infection (not MRSA thankfully). Several courses of AB's did not prevent it from eventually getting into the bone and required revision surgery and three months of daily IV antibiotics to erradicate. Six weeks ago I finally got my Mom back as she is infection free and has received her new implant and is walking unassisted most of the time now. She basically lost a year of her life to a less insidious bacteria. :(
Johnny said…
I was replying to Kindke, Nigel.

On a serious note, someone linked the other day to an old .pdf US Army report regarding the phases of adaptation to cold (acute and chronic exposure was in there) but I didn't download it. There wasn't "an" adaptation to "cold" but a lot of nuance depending on exposure schedule, I think...anyone recall seeing the same thing?
Lesley Scott said…
"I am authorized by Mark himself to tell you that the relationship between Kruse and SIsson was terminated immediately by Mark upon submission of the first draft, which as you can guess was basically totally loony nonsense."

Personally, I've always felt you're judged by the company you keep, be it in person or, in these days of Social Media, online. Especially professionally, where your brand is concerned. That's why I was surprised the marketing-savvy Sisson would have ever entertained the idea of a collaboration with Kruse. Sure, Kruse-buzz & his apparent ability to drive traffic is attractive - Leptinman sho' 'nuff knows how to get the masses talkin' about him - but I wonder how sustainable that will be over the long run for all the reasons we've all discussed at length here in the various posts & comments. Hmm, maybe he should have given med school a miss and gone into either the Mystical Guru biz (like Robert Crumb's Mr. Natural) or better yet, the entertainment industry PR, especially "big budget" (by which I mean brainless & plot-free) pow-kerplam FX-driven action flicks.
Greg said…
Kurt, a company called Zeptometrix claims to sell MRSA ( Just found it in a quick google search, and I would be surprised if credentialed researchers could not buy it. It is categorized as Biosafety Level 2 (second lowest of four levels). Here are the guidelines --

1. laboratory personnel have specific training in handling pathogenic agents and are directed by scientists with advanced training;
2. access to the laboratory is limited when work is being conducted;
3. extreme precautions are taken with contaminated sharp items; and
4. certain procedures in which infectious aerosols or splashes may be created are conducted in biological safety cabinets or other physical containment equipment.
CarbSane said…
@Greg -- not sure if you've posted here before so if not, welcome! I don't know if Kurt is reading these comments, and I don't speak for him, but I think he means that there's no "source" in the context of a legit source for Jack Kruse. Obviously research on MRSA is being done and it makes sense that companies like Zeptometrix exist. But the point is that ONLY credentialed researchers with specific purpose and proper controls a their facility can purchase it. That's not Jack. On his Facebook he claims to have gotten it from a friend and cultured it. WHERE? At home where potentially he exposed his wife and kids? At his clinic where potentially he exposed staff and patients alike? Makes his tales all the more unbelievable.
arbo said…
I want to back up a few mechanisms that Kruse is talking about, namely why he would say cold improves leptin, leptin gives most of the other benefits(solid) and then other observational ideas that we can't weigh on either way.

P1. Cold exposure creates a low energy environment in the body, acting in a similar way as exercise
P2. Our leptin sensitivity improves in extreme low energy environments
C. Cold exposure could improve leptin sensitivity

And another example is that inside of P2 is the assumption that we don't increase our calories or 'energy', so creating energy deficits through cold give a host of benefits. That's possibly it, and most of the benefits that he talks about could stem from the cold creating leptin sensitivity

The main story he says however is very true, that humans have an adaptive response to cold and that triggering cold response lowers bodymass if we don't replace the dispersed energy with more insulin foods. It's an energy deficit, he's using this in the same way Cronise and Ferriss have done : Give yourself an insulin deficit, and then don't refuel with heavily insulogenic fuels.

So I like his information, a lot of his theories about the biochemistry of how cells act in cold doesn't apply to us because we have the 'mammalian' adaption of UCP1 and BAT so our bodies will stay at a similar state of health.

Anyhow, I respect what he's doing but as a 22 year old I have easier ways to stay leptin sensitive, but for people like my mom who's 52, very over-weight, and with a muscle tear behind her knee, this could be a valid method. We're talking about creating energy deficits here, primarily creating an insulin deficit

^ If you make humans cold, they burn off calories through their BAT. This alone doesn't cause weight loss as our appetites will increase, but eating a low glucose producing diet will stimulate weight loss
arbo said…
That post should say in my fifth paragraph, "a lot of his theories about the biochemistry of how cells act in cold doesn't apply to us because we have the 'mammalian' adaption of UCP1 and BAT so our bodies will stay at a *similar temperature*, -- not at a 'similar state of health'

- Arbo
ProudDaddy said…
This just in:

Archeologists have discovered the 17th-century communal ice tubs that explain the Kitavan dearth of obesity.

Note 1. This post should bear the same date-stamp as the article to which it applies.

Note 2. Henceforth, 70-year-old ProudDaddy will be 71-year-old ProudDaddy. This change is unlikely to improve the coherence of his posts.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Many Happy Returns!
ProudDaddy said…
Thanks, Nigel. I've finished reading your entire archive. Still impressed.

To celebrate my birthday I am tonight having my first glazed doughnut of the year! My beloved bride mumbled a bit about it but finally relented.
Nigel Kinbrum said…
Well done and thank you. You deserve a medal for ploughing through that lot. I hope you enjoyed the music (& karaoke) videos.

Glazed doughnut, eh? I hope you don't become addicted to that sugary doughness!
Anonymous said…
Actually here in Finland we spend quite some time swimming in 32 °F water, hole in the ice. Others much longer us youngsters quite not so much, but nobody questions that it doesn't do hell of a lot of good for all of us.
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