Zohan IV

Continuing to address Robb's on this post on his blog.    Robb writes
I told Evelyn why I chose to do the LC cruise. She has self-servingly sat on that information (shocker). In 2010 Jimmy asked me to do LCC 2011. I agreed, seemed like a potentially fun time to hang with some cool people, get a tan and talk about stuff I enjoy. Then, we got pregnant, the due date was April 28th, the LCC was May 5th. I waffled and hemed and hawed about giving the thing a go, but non-carbsanity prevailed and I backed out of the gig rather late in the game, apologizing to Jimmy who completely understood the whole thing. I PROMISED him I’d do the following year, this year for the reading impaired! Zoe arrived May 3rd, so had I gone on the LCC that would have sucked missing the first few days of my daughters life. As it was, Evelyn managed to get me drug into the whole Jack Kruse debacle , which I tried to keep that brush fire from turning into a full scale meltdown.
Anyone reading Zohan II knows this is a flat out lie.  I did not "drug him into" the Jack Kruse debacle.  He was part and parcel of it.  I think there's a part of these guys that thinks to this day Melissa and I were behind the SKS twitter account, that, for those who don't recall, was a parody account of mostly repeated quotes and pearls of wisdom from Jack himself.  Whoever it was did a slightly stupid thing with that last tweet that, while I don't know him/her, I do know was not intended as a threat.  Anyone -- including followers of that Twitter account like none other than Jimmy Moore himself -- trying to make it out to be lives on another planet.  In the end, though several targeted individuals did call the FBI, I chose another route.   My thinking was that if I reach out to them, then I never really know if I was ever a target.  In this day and age, if there was anything to this Homeland Security and/or the FBI would have been at my door before I got the first email notice. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody EVER contacted me about this.

Now Robb Wolf is trying to make it sound like I dragged him into this controversy.  Seriously?  There are apparently email chains a mile long of paleo luminaries trying to figure out what to do about Jack Kruse.   I find that quite amusing really.  By the time Krusegate occurred, Jack had posted the bizarre Holy Trinity post, stood up in front of a TEDx audience in Nashville and claimed to have smeared and injected himself with MRSA before undergoing, what was it, help me out here, 30" of cuts to his abdomen was it?  This was, by his account, unbeknownst to his wife and young daughter who from the telling drove him home in agony, and were screamed at to get the ice and what, a kiddie pool?, and put it on the bed where he then claimed to have spent hours submersed in ice. (TEDx has taken down the video of this debacle, I have a copy, you  know the drill.)  

The man had been suspended from his professional society for lying under oath in a court of law ... information independently and publicly available on the internet.  Which, BTW, I also stupidly (having been fed the information) blogged on so these folks could stand by and bash me for providing no value (to them) and play innocent while pointing "she's a stalker" fingers at me.   This was a conundrum for Wolf & Co.???  Thing is, outside this cult, very few people know or care about any of this.  Fox News, Extra or TMZ were not going to hound the great Robb Wolf or Mark Sisson because they have  no idea who you are!!  You all could have just frozen the guy out for Chrissakes!  What was he going to do to you for that?  It is beyond mind boggling.  Kurt Harris knew he was a quack.  Ever stop and think about why he spoke to you from the peanut gallery? Geez!  Emily Deans and Paul Jaminet thought and knew him to be a quack.  You just disinvite.  Done.  I just don't get it. There need not be some grand denouncement.  He never even mentioned when he was going to be speaking at Harvard on TV and nobody cared!  Do you really think that even local Boston TV would have descended on AHS12 to inquire why Jack Kruse had been disinvited?  In the email exchange from this post, Robb said:
I've not made it my directive to build myself up by tearing others in the community down.
No, it is a far more noble effort you were involved in promoting quackery, eh?  Now everyone knows that there were great email conclaves convened to discuss what to do about Jack when just ignore would have sufficed. What was the problem?  Whom among you were not on board with that??   
So, I agreed to go, gave Jimmy my WORD and intended to see things through. Then the whole David Duke, KKK gig hit. I’ll be honest, I was pretty stunned and none to happy with Jimmy. Someone on this site commented “Hey, what do you think of JM on the David Duke show?” I responded “The White Supremacist!? surely this is a different person!” Unfortunately, no, it was not. I was pretty bummed with Jimmy and was thinking hard about seeing through on my word vs. getting involved with this stuff. I had actually decided to PULL OUT (again, for the reading impaired, that mean “to not go on the Low Carb Cruise…I want to make sure people understand the context of “pull-out” after all). Then Evelyn decides it is her DUTY to ride me on this topic. I do NOT like being pestered. I still waffled some more but then decided I was not going to be bullied into doing something Evelyn wanted, just for the sake of her desires on this topic. AND I was not going to go back on my WORD just because it was going to bring some heat to myself. People are spineless coward these days and I was not going to cave just to make my own life easier. And trust me, bailing on the LCC would make my life much easier and it has nothing to do with Evelyn.
So let me get this straight. This guy is telling his followers that he had actually decided to back out of the LCC until I started riding him? Robb is a 41 year old man with all that he has accomplished and all of his supposed stature in this community, and he is worried over a few comments on this blog? Really? Chest puffer alert:
Several months ago I shared the work I’ve been doing with the Risk Assessment program here in Reno. In that program we look at yearly blood work from Police and Fire, triage for metabolic risks, then prescribe a LOW CARB PALEO DIET to address the myriad of issues these folks have. (We also counsel on sleep, Vit-d, and a number of other factors.) We recently published our preliminary material in the International Journal of Chief’s of Police.

We are working to get this program into a number of cities world wide, as well as getting this into multiple police and fire organizations in the US. I spend a significant amount of time every week looking at lab work, talking to people, and trying to get this program going. I do not make a red-cent from any of these efforts. The day that changes, I’ll let you know, but for now I look at this as work that is too important to not do everything I can to bring it to life. 
This will damage my credibility and income not in the least.

I could close this site, disappear form the interwebz and I will still have 5 lifetimes of work with the police, military and fire contracts I have.

CrossFit HQ thought I’d back down to them too for fear of a fight or losing my job. They were wrong and the break-up put another zero at the end of my yearly income.
Which is it Robb?  Do you not make a red cent, or do you have enough contracts to hold you for life if you shut down your website (and close down the fledgling supplement biz?).

Here you go folks.  Because Robb Wolf thinks I should have shared this with you sooner.

January 1
Hi Robb,

I know I'm not high on your list of favorite people at the moment, but I'm not writing about that today. When last we crossed paths you sent me an email about your appearance on Jimmy Moore's ATLCX podcast. I had some thoughts at the time, don't remember exactly what happened but it was a busy time and it got dropped. But the tone of your email gave me the distinct impression it was related to me wondering out loud on my blog why you would go on the LC Cruise after the 2012 debacle.

So hopefully you are aware of the horrible David Duke controversy. Jimmy Moore is lying about this as has been outlined on my blog and Melissa's paleodrama. Before this blew up, I'd been listening to a lot of Jimmyaudio as he's been on a few podcasts, and lectured at the LCDU tour in Australia. He has been dropping your name like crazy including your trifecta about how do you feel, look, perform or something like that. Here is the line-up this year:
It's a skeleton of what was there last year and I imagine registrations are down big time. In my opinion,Jimmy OWED everyone, especially ME, an open apology for what transpired following the 2012 cruise. Robb, his cabin was 5 doors down from Jack's. He knows it did not go down as Jack went all over TV and Twitter and elsewhere threatening me with the FBI and when it became obvious that wasn't working, law suits. One can know they are right and innocent and still could be harmed by this. I hope you can understand that. That Jimmy did not set the record straight even though he promised to is a black mark on his record, and in my opinion reason enough not to associate with his cruise.

I do not know what contractual arrangements you may or may not have had in 2012 or if committing to 2013 got you out of them, but Jimmy Moore just handed you an out. Are you planning to take it? The heat is going to be turned up over this David Duke issue, and Jimmy Moore has infected the paleo community that I know you love and have worked hard to grow and gain acceptance. I also wonder with your stance on LC what lending credence to the extremist VLC movement by headlining the cruise is meant to accomplish, but that's almost an after thought at this point.

There are several (anonymous to me) commenters who have come out of the woodwork who did the legwork to bring Kimkins to the fore. These people are asking me to exert pressure which, heck, I'm slightly flattered that they think I even can, but I'm not planning on devoting my energies to a letter writing campaign to bring down Jimmy Moore. I believe his insidious influence is best removed by folks like yourself just disassociating with him. Not going on his podcasts and cruises. I'd ask to be removed from his blog roll were I on it. But that's just me.

Anyway, hope all is well with you, your wife and baby Zoe.

Robb on Jan 2:

Hey Evelyn, really glad you reached out to me on this. So the readers digest:
In 2011 Jimmy asked If I;d come on the LCC 2012. I said, sure, seemed like fun and I honestly like hanging out with folks and talking shop. Nicki got pregnant and her due date was april 28th. We kinda rode it out for a bit but it was obvious I could either be gone for the birth or leaving days afterwards so I bowed out and committed to this year. Lucky thing as Zoe was born May 3rd, Cruze and associated debacle on the 5th! And oh, what a cluster that was. I remember all the Kruzian drama and had hopped that would be the high point of stupid shit that has gone down in the genre, but no, we now have some kind of linkage to a Neo-Nazi Grand Wizard.

I do not follow the medai a ton, never have, but when someone asked me my thoughts on Jimmy appearing on David Dukes podcast I said "You mean the neo-nazi?! Are you kidding me?" So, it's hard for me to believe that Jimmy legitimately didd not know about the guys past. Obviously I cannot prove that (vetting your appearances seems a wise thing, but that's a whole other thing) but it's tough to believe. So, I have been spinning on this a good bit and I 100% get what you are saying...I agree with all of it. My hope previously was that I might talk some sense into these folks but the main vitriol I received about my first part to the LC and paleo piece I did came from folks who circle aroundJimmy's flame. So, I don't know that ANYONE is ever going to reach that scene, let alone me. Add to that the Duke fiasco and it seems like a clear decision but Evelyn, I gave the guy my word I'd go. it may be a jack-asstic trait on my part by I really try to live up to my obligations and not be a worm...is that being ego driven and short sighted? I have NO contractual obligations with Jimmy. this was to be essentially a vacation in which I'd do some jabbering and that was about it.

So, and I'm asking you honestly here as I am legitimately conflicted. Do i stand by my word (possibly doing harm to the movement and highlighting behavior that no one wants to be associated with) or pull the plug? I know for you the answer is obvious...but it's a damn tough thing for me.
Me to Robb, Jan 2
Hey Robb,
I, like yourself, put high value in giving my word and when others give me theirs. However such oral contracts are never one-sided. If I give you my word on something, it does not give you the right to violate the unspoken pretense/circumstances underlying the promise. In tihs regard, Jimmy has -- not directly to you, but, frankly to everyone who's done business with him or contracted to do so -- violated his end of the bargain.  
I can only give you my "outsider's" view, but I think that may be just what you need. Because you are right. This would be a no-brainer for me and I see it as one for you. Jimmy did WAAAAY more than just make a mistake. If you read my comments or those of Regina Wilshire's Weight of the Evidence blog you will see this to be the case. In both places and elsewhere you see a lot of "Quack" and Duckiness going on. This apparently was the nickname of many who worked tirelessly to out Kimkins scam. They have been providing links and commenting on the similarities here. You see, I have felt, and been discussing, for quite some time how Jimmy is up to his Kimkins tricks. That saga unfolded largely before I ever found the LC community. Jimmy was all holier than thou by that point, trashing Kimmer, trumpeting the lawsuit against her, etc. An unknowing newbie would have thought he had been taken in by Kimmer. That's what I thought until someone posted a link once to a Kimkins Exposed blog and I followed that to more links and so on, and eventually read everything there is to still read (that hasn't been deleted). Bottom line, Jimmy wasn't scammed... He was knee deep in the scamming. And he claims to this day that he thought he was doing the responsible K/E plan and -- fingers in ears, la la la, Seargent Shulz "I know nothing". If you've not read this yet, do take the time to read it now: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/from-the-bottom-of-my-heart-im-sorry/1949
Before I continue, I first owe everyone–whether you are friend or foe–a very big apology for taking liberties with a highly critical comment of me at my sister web site LowCarbNewsline.com earlier this month. I didn’t simply ignore the comment or even delete the comment in question. I admit that I modified it to be positive and replied in kind. When called on it, I replied it was a joke and did not show the remorse I should have for something I should not have done in the first place.
Not only was this an abuse of my editorial powers at that site, but it was highly unethical and wrong. For that I am truly sorry, and promise that in the future when I find myself frustrated, I will simply leave comments as they are, step away and remember that not everyone will agree with me.If you go to that forum, then you will see I have apologized in like manner there making it clear to everyone that I was wrong and am truly sorry.
For over a year now I have had people email me and comment on my blog about his censorship and altering of comments once again.  If you read his comments on any controversial topic, they are highly lopsided because he moderates heavily -- despite his "official policy" to publish all but the most inflammatory comments.  He's even gone back and just deleted (hidden actually) comments on older posts rather than have to selectively go back and delete.  The newbie thus thinks there's still this consensus.
Fast forward to this scandal and he's at it again.  Only now he's contradicted himself irreparably.  He is lying about not knowing.  THAT is a fact.  According to him.  His story now stands at:
  • October, reader sends him links to Duke's site and he sees all of these great articles (and apparently ignores all the tabs there to Zionism, Jewish Extremism, etc.
  • Jimmy contacts Duke to appear on LLVLC podcast
  • Duke says he'd like to, but why don't you come on my Fitness Fridays
  • Dec. 7 Jimmy appears -- LIVE -- which is important b/c while McGuff and Davis may not have been aware of the commercials, etc., Jimmy was interrupted by the commercial bumper music and no doubt heard it all. As well, as I posted on my blog and the end of my audio comments on the JimKKKins post, Duke injected enought politics into their discussion that he should have looked into it.
  • Dec 7 FB friend asks if this is the "infamous" David Duke? Jimmy responds "Yep!", links to it in his discussion forum, silence for two weeks.
  • Dec 12 FB friend takes him to task about DD on FB. Jimmy does not respond
  • Dec 22 Jimmy links to David Duke in his 36 blogs to check out post.  
  • He is asked about Duke and informed he's a neo-Nazi (a term he absurdly claims to have never heard in his 41 years on the planet!) and he responds that Duke's nutritional info is spot on.  Then he deletes both comments and the discussion forum thread that now has some discussion about Duke.
  • I posted my post (his wife's FB tells the reality that it was not anyone else's criticism and posts but mine that prompted him) and he posts his "response" the next day.
  • McGuff tells his story which was Duke pursued him with multiple requests, sent innocuous links to other websites/interviews elsewhere (?), said he was a history prof from American U in England, etc.  Bottom line he claims he was conned -- which doesn't hold water but that's not important here. 
  • Jimmy responds to McGuff (a) that this was "almost precisely" what happened to him, clearly by his own tellling it was not. and (b) that Duke name dropped Davis, McGuff and others to entice him to come on.
  • In his blog post to which that is a comment response, Jimmy relates that just that day he had discovered Davis and McGuff had both also been on the program -- this was evidence that unnamed people (me) were on a witch hunt against him.  This directly contradicts his assertion that Duke name dropped to get him on.  
Jimmy is trying to play the victim but I don't think he'll get away with it. His Encore Week podcasts are usually huge and have outside sponsors (for example last year's Kruse Encore had Quest). I cannot believe that after his whirlwind speaking tour etc. that he couldn't get sponsors for this year. Someone pulled out! His sponsors thusfar: Dayspring = buy stuff from our Amazon store to support us, Bailor = Jimmys Diet Menus, Wahls = the new JM phone App. 
Really, I don't see how appearing on this cruise, especially with how much Jimmy parrots your philosophy and drops your name, helps at all, and to me, it's almost a near certainty to hurt. Robb, go read Itsthewooo.blogspot.com. She's a total loon (and loves to bash me almost as much as Stephan) but she's actually got a finger on the pulse of the way paleo is seen by the outsiders looking in. Nikoley has seriously harmed the face of paleo with his antics and political rantings. Paleo does not need to be associated with this circus sideshow. The c-word stuff is bad enough, but there is a SERIOUS scuttlebutt out there that paleo= fringe right wing nut EXTREMIST cult. I would hate to see that settle in as the routine association, but I think it's going there :(
OK ... that's it for now.  I have some other thoughts to share, but many things to do still this evening.  Till later,
Robb Wolf to me, Jan 2
Sweet paleo baby Jesus!!
I've never heard of this kimkims stuff. Damnit Evelyn! I have a really good scifi book I'm reading, now I'm going to be rooting around in this an doing google searches!

Ugh, let me chew in this and I'll ping you some thoughts in the morning. I really, really hate backing out on people but this is getting pretty damn thick.

Sent from my iPhone

OK gang, I have one more long back and forth with Robb to post up, it's just a royal PITA to format and remove links etc.   I will include this for now however:
And Evelyn, i really appreciate you taking the time to ping me all this. I know you have a life outside this shit and I also know how time consuming this all is. If I had a clear course of action that felt good I'd jump on it but I'm honestly really conflicted.
But it is email exchanges like the above that Robb describes thusly::
Evelyn has apparently NOT considered everyone who emailed her was being conciliatory to HER, to keep the Harpie off their respective backs and try to placate her in a way that did not level her staker-cross-hairs on them. But thinking of that would require stepping outside herself and considering the motivations of others, even if just to be tactical.
Haha Robb.  Honestly this is so very odd to me.  Were you just being conciliatory when out of the blue you sent me the Linkedin invite?  Paul Jaminet has been anything but conciliatory in our recent email exchanges -- oddly enough because all I said was that an email of his left a bad taste in my mouth and he got angry that my readers might read into that.    You want bullying?  Should I have shared those conciliatory emails?  Or how about the contents of my phone conversation with Mark Sisson that lasted almost two hours?   Just being conciliatory, eh?   Like I said folks, I never had any intention of ever sharing any of this though I think some may have a greater appreciation of just what my tongue has endured with all the biting these many months as all manner of crap has been flung my way as these men hide behind my skirts.

And now the paleorati are palling around a true stalker and buddying up with a man they all to a one have called some manner of a raving alcoholic psycho.   Made promises (conciliatory?) not to link to him, etc.  Who threatened to annihilate me "for sport" and openly declared war on me.  His father, by all appearances, was able to get through to him, but it did not last long as he is back in the fray.  You all paleos have him to blame for the Kruse "fire" (well, yourselves as well).   If not linking and associating with a guy like Nikoley is out of a conciliatory nod to me and not because the paleo community should hold no quarter for such behavior .... no words ....  

I'm sure there are a few saying to themselves, see?  Nobody cares about a little white supremacy amongst friends. Silly me, I thought bigger and better of this community than it deserves.  You don't have to do a thing but disassociate.  If you think paleo is misrepresented by the mainstream, just wait if it ever really goes mainstream because this kind of thing generally comes back to bite.  The general public doesn't tend to associate routine and unapologetic sexist, racist, anti-religious bigotry with worthy causes, and if you really aspire to change the world, it might just help to finally do the internal house cleaning that should have been done many months ago.  Vulgarity in your spokesmen?   Hello women of paleo?!  

Meanwhile, speaking of the mainstream ...

Paul Jaminet joins the list of paleo bloggers who having not read evolutionary biologist Marlene Zuk's book will weigh in anyway.  Tis odd that he seems to have read reviews, older works and anything but the book, but amongst some other gems Paul writes:
The title “Paleofantasy” may sell more books than “Paleohypothesis,” but the latter is undoubtedly more accurate. The Paleo movement is based on a scientific hypothesis, and exploring its validity is a very reasonable thing for an evolutionary biologist to do. The ancestral health community should be flattered, not offended, that its science is being engaged by other scholars.
Yeah, just don't ask what said hypothesis actually is, and there's one too many words in that last sentence.  For all of what Robb wrote in his Evidence Based Science post that started this all over a little tweet, I don't think he could actually describe just what it is he demands of scientists in the concluding paragraph.  What does it mean to view, say, current research into the molecular mechanisms of beta cell failure through a lens of natural selection?   How does that fix what is wrong in modern medicine?  {cue crickets}  Paul concludes is post with:
The Ancestral Health Society is forming a new scholarly journal, The Journal of Evolution and Health, to complement its annual Symposium.
It is coming at a good time: when scholars have begun to appreciate the significance of the Paleo/Primal/PHD/Ancestral movement, yet remain unfamiliar with its recent scientific and intellectual developments.
Yes, the scientific hypotheses on which “Paleo” began were flawed (though insightful and scientifically productive); but a newer and better scientific foundation has been developed.
The Ancestral health movement has become popular because it works: it truly does heal and prevent disease, and millions have experienced its benefits. So it is no fad diet, and will not fade away.
I hope that scholars like Zuk and Warinner will continue their engagement with the ancestral health movement, and help us refine the science still more.
I believe Paul is to be the editor of said journal.   Do you think they will be impressed that you are in Carole Sampson's Google+ circle?  That a religious Catholic such as yourself is tweeting to Richard Nikoley that great minds think alike?  I'm thinking not.  What next, "scholarly" articles on why gang rape is paleo?

OK folks, I'm spending some downtime the next few days.  Comment moderation goes on, I'll do my best to check in from time to time to approve and let everyone have their fair say.  But, as always seems to happen, this stuff happens at the least convenient times.  Best.


Ron said…
So I guess the question is why did Wolff feel the need to respond at times to this apparent stalker.
Unknown said…

So pathetic.
SamAbroad said…

I said before I'd leave this blog as I didn't think I could have a good discourse here as the comment's section got a little high-school bitchy. And that's true at times.

But I am back to say that I am appalled at your treatment. It really exposes the 'community' or whatever as a nice test bed for bullshit marketing over any sort of scientific endevour.

I think I will continue to paddle my own canoe and you should do the same.

The cracks are definitely beginning to show.

Yours in solidarity,

an3drew said…
Jane said…
I have been following all this as well as I can, and it seems to me that Evelyn is being accused of things she has not done. This is what happened to Stephan Guyenet. I followed what people were saying about him and found a lot of extraordinary stuff that was completely untrue, which nevertheless was being believed by a lot of people. It seems to be the same with Evelyn.

Unknown said…
People tend to be put off by highly negative things whether it is Nazis or rape, I don't think that sort of thing blends in real well with blogs devoted to health and wellness.
river rance said…
Who was the genius that recently said, “great minds think alike” or something like that? If he has a web site I’m guessing that should be posted as well, right? When do great minds quit thinking alike? Sorry I don’t know my paleo gurus very well...the whole concept is starting to appear silly. I do know, one guy fantasizes about a romantic caveman named “Grok”, another should have been a “jockey” would have been more famous, and could actually call himself an athlete instead of pretending to be one, and another has an eating disorder and proudly links to a KKK Grand Wizard, and his actions, it is pretty clear over the recent weeks, behind closed doors...is pretty much a “laughing stock” for the rest of the “Gurus/Wizards. This is some kinda crazy “movement”, no wonder “wing-nuts” want to be part of it.
Mirtika said…
I hadn't been there in a spell. I see he's still working hard on that misogynistic de-evolving. I'm looking forward to the mouthless puddle of cells stage. Maybe the milk diet will help with that.
CarbSane said…
Yeah, it is baffling that he engaged Carole.

@Travis: I enjoyed your comment, but to maintain peace I'm not going to publish this one.
Travis Culp said…
LOL...no worries. Save it for a rainy day.
Unknown said…
Richard is always going on about these "wars". Put the whiskey down and step away from your computer you clown.

It's truly amazing that the overweight alcoholic has kind of following in the heath/diet arena. Says a lot about the "paleosphere".
So now he's apparently doing an all milk diet? Wow, sounds like another smart idea.
Jane said…
I think Richard Nikoley is at the end of his tether. The vicious-sounding rants are in my opinion, evidence of desperation. He knows his health is getting worse but nobody can tell him what's causing it.