Perfect Health Diet Evolving??
Note: Some of the graphics I'm going to use in this post aren't great, but I don't think I need make much comment as to the changing picture of the so-called Perfect Health Diet.
Paul Jaminet has called his diet the most scientifically sound version of the paleo diet (small caps). In his tribute to Seth Roberts, Paul wrote:
Paul Jaminet has called his diet the most scientifically sound version of the paleo diet (small caps). In his tribute to Seth Roberts, Paul wrote:
The weaknesses of Seth’s approach to science show up best, I think, in how he ate. Although he considered ours the “sanest” diet book, he didn’t eat our diet. He prized his own experimental results above all else. If an experiment persuaded him that eating something would improve his health, he ate it.
To my mind, this led him on a somewhat fanciful peregrination through dietary parameter space. His approach risked two pitfalls:
- ...
- ... most modern health problems take 60 years to develop. So there was no way for Seth to directly appraise whether his diet would generate good health or poor health; ...
There can be no doubt that Paul believes his diet is backed by these principles, but if it indeed were, why has the diet changed in the span of around four years?
[For some of the reasons I do not believe Paul's diet to be backed by the scientific evidence see: No, Paul Jaminet, the LoBAG Diet Isn't "Close" to the Perfect Health Diet Either (this post contains links to other critiques and/or mentions of the diet). Also this: Perfect Health Diet Macronutrient Ratios ~ Part I: Breast Milk .]
from Fat Head Q&A May 2014 |
There has been a definitive dialing back of the fat content and upping of the carb content -- a 10% swing. Carbs are now 30% vs. 20% while fat has been decreased from 65% down to 55% . This may not seem that consequential, but Paul goes to great lengths to specify optimal ranges for humans based on various rationales. Further, an increase from 20% to 30% of total energy from carbs constitutes an increase in the absolute carbohydrate intake of 50%. The decrease in fat content is less pronounced on an absolute level, but significant nonetheless.
The Evolution
2010 e-book
Kindle Version (2011) of the Original Late 2010 Paperback
New Late 2012 Scribner Edition
2014 Version from Perfect Health Diet Retreat
Now, to be fair, these recommendations are similar to the 2012 book ... but in contrast to the infographic presented several times on the pages of that book. Indeed the ranges of macros in the book go even higher on the carbs and lower on the fat. (Beginning at Kindle location 203)
The Perfect Health Diet in Brief The Perfect Health Diet is, by calories, a low-to-moderate-carbohydrate (20 to 35 percent), high-fat (50 to 65 percent), moderate-protein (15 percent) diet. However, by weight, the diet is about 65 percent plant foods, 35 percent meats and oils.Again, it would be nitpicky in general were someone to point out inconsistencies in, say, the diet of a general population. These are "edicts" for "perfect health" however, based on years of research of human evolution and physiology. As such, they should not be evolving.
DO eat:
• About one pound per day— roughly, four fist-sized servings —of “safe starches ”: white rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, taro, winter squashes, and a few others. Add up to another pound of sugary plants— fruits, berries, beets, carrots, and such— and as many low-calorie vegetables as you like. Be sure to include a bit of seaweed, for minerals. In total, you might eat 2 to 3 pounds of plant foods.
• At least a half pound, probably not more than one pound, of fatty meats, seafood , and eggs. Once a week, eat salmon or other cold-water fish for omega-3 fatty acids.
• Eat 2 to 4 tablespoons of healthful cooking oils and fats per day— enough to make your food delicious but not oily. Butter, sour cream, beef tallow, duck fat, coconut oil, olive oil, and tree nut butters are the best fats. Use spices, including salt. Liberally use acids such as vinegar, lemon juice, and lime juice.
• Adjust the amount of food to fit your appetite, but keep these relative proportions of plant and animal foods. Adjust the proportions of fat, starch, and protein to make your food as delicious as possible.
The new graphic is now 3 pounds plants, 1 pound meat on the top end, while meat minimums have been raised to 0.2 lbs from 0.5 lbs (an increase of 40% of the previous minimum).
Some Strange Things:
- Honey, which is 50% fructose (calculated from sugar breakdown and assigning half of sucrose to fructose from here) is up there on the leaf with "non-fructose sweeteners". Honey is a very recent addition to the PHD for sure! PHD has always included verbiage on the toxicity of fructose, a la the man himself, Robert Lustig. Combined with the specific 1 pound recommendation for sweet plants, it seems an odd turn.
- Butter is the first fat -- pay no attention to its dairy derivation I suppose. Of all the so-called neolithic foods, dairy remains the one that we can be pretty sure humans rarely if ever consumed post weaning.
- Including fats in flavorings makes sense for a "balanced diet" (e.g. one where you use a pat of butter as a condiment). But the high end of 4T refined fats to round out the caloric needs of a diet limited in carb and protein? That's one-quarter cup of added fats. Not paleo, and not backed by evolution.
- I just think it is hilarious that a line is drawn between a peanut and a walnut or almond. One is a "never eat" legume, the others are "pleasure foods" alongside chocolate and dairy and sweets. The nutritional profiles of these three foods are quite similar (from here, here and here) and all the so-called evils of legumes are present in nuts and other PHD approved foods.
So meanwhile ....
Paul has made PHD into a full blown business what with luxury health retreats and the like. Ultimately, there is little science or basic human cultural evidence, to back up much of what is put forth in the books. There is some solid stuff in there, but the part that makes it PHD? That is just not there. The diet is really just another collection of rules cobbled together from cherry picked studies and personal preferences. Of all the paleos, he has least claim to the label given the foods advised. That would be fine, but for the fact that he weaves "paleolithic" lore into the rationale for the diet, after all, most of paleo isn't authentic (as much as it even could be) anyway.
It is more than unfortunate that a promising "moderate" approach could go so far off the rails in the name of science.
Jimmy Moore and his wife are currently on one of the retreats, and reporting blood glucose readings that are disturbing to them. There was a time when PHD seemed a great stepping stone out of the carbophobic rabbit hole: paleo or otherwise. But the more you look, the more you learn, and the books really paint a much more focused view than his website ever did. It is silly to even think that the metabolic damage (and it is damage, though maybe not permanent) that has been brought on by Jimmy's diet since 2008 or so, exacerbated by the uber extreme hypercaloric high fat diet can be addressed in even a month of a less high fat diet like PHD. Like others, PHD is only likely helpful coming from full on SAD-junk diet.
I'll leave you with this graphic from the 2012 book.
I suppose the Inuit are missing here, but it is clear that nobody reporting data are consuming under 40% carbohydrate. Contrary to Paul's claims, many traditional cultures from where he claims to glean food cues (e.g. Pacific Islanders), traditionally consumed more carbohydrate rather than the high fat diet he espouses. When it comes to self experimentation, it IS these high fat diets that are the self-experiment with no long term track record in free living humans to back up the claims of health ... let alone perfect health.
Comments
"There can be no doubt that Paul believes his diet is backed by these principles, but if it indeed were, why has the diet changed in the span of around four years?"
Maybe because his understanding of the principles and/or the specifics has changed as a result of further reading and/or research?
"I just think it is hilarious that a line is drawn between a peanut and a walnut or almond."
I believe Paul includes peanuts as much for their link to allergies as for their anti-nutrients wrt being a legume. Me, I hate all nuts, but at least walnuts and almonds are less likely to be a source of aflatoxins!
"Jimmy Moore and his wife are currently on one of the retreats, and reporting blood glucose readings that are disturbing to them."
They have been doing a ketogenic diet for how long and only started eating starch on Sunday?! I'd be surprised if they didn't have readings "disturbing" to them. Or did Paul advise them to ramp up carbs before they appeared?
Since we're on the subject of legumes, one thing I noticed changing between the first edition and the second was that the section at the end on how to be a healthy vegetarian was deleted. In the first edition, he recommended properly prepared beans, along with eggs and dairy (and seafood if possible), as part of a healthy vegetarian diet.
He also deleted his advice to vegans, which was probably a good move. (It was to read "The Vegetarian Myth")
Gordon
Gordon
__________________________________
In the shadow of the apple are foods to avoid: grains except white rice; beans, peanuts, and other calorie-dense legumes;
Jaminet, Paul; Jaminet, Shou-Ching (2012-12-11). Perfect Health Diet: Regain Health and Lose Weight by Eating the Way You Were Meant to Eat (Kindle Locations 228-229). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
F Wheat, corn, and other grains; peanuts
Jaminet, Paul; Jaminet, Shou-Ching (2012-12-11). Perfect Health Diet: Regain Health and Lose Weight by Eating the Way You Were Meant to Eat (Kindle Locations 3419-3420). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
F High-omega-6 seed oils: soybean oil, canola oil, safflower oil, corn oil, peanut butter
Jaminet, Paul; Jaminet, Shou-Ching (2012-12-11). Perfect Health Diet: Regain Health and Lose Weight by Eating the Way You Were Meant to Eat (Kindle Locations 3450-3451). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
Beans and peanuts— the high-calorie seeds of legumes— are just as dangerous as grains when eaten raw and still risky after cooking.
Jaminet, Paul; Jaminet, Shou-Ching (2012-12-11). Perfect Health Diet: Regain Health and Lose Weight by Eating the Way You Were Meant to Eat (Kindle Locations 4001-4002). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
Since human carbohydrate needs can easily be met with safer and more nutritious foods, we believe there is little reward and much risk to eating toxin-rich legumes such as beans and peanuts. The only legumes we eat are peas and green beans.
Jaminet, Paul; Jaminet, Shou-Ching (2012-12-11). Perfect Health Diet: Regain Health and Lose Weight by Eating the Way You Were Meant to Eat (Kindle Locations 4062-4063). Scribner. Kindle Edition.
________________
One of the links was interesting in that the slide he posted explained muscle wasting on a low-carb diet (body making glucose from muscle stores in the absence of carbs), and Jimmy (who has obviously lost what little muscle he had in "nutritional ketosis") scoffed at the idea. You'd think a guy with a sunken chest and enormous gut would be more open.
Too bad that too many people are looking for the quick fix and will pay money to fringe theorists... (no offense, but that's what Jaminet is)
So I don't know what Paul is thinking, only that apparently Jimmy makes the cut in http://relationshipeconomics.com/
I don't think Paul's understanding changed or that additional research has caused a change of heart. At least the paleo template folks will talk about "new" information. Paul pretty much dismissed the person who challenged his breast milk claim (that all mammals have roughly same macro ratios) a while back which I found disappointing. As well, the "nutrient transformation" stuff is still in the book. This idea from Barry Groves never did hold up in humans and calling SCFA "fats" in a metabolic sense is erroneous. By that I mean they don't go to the mitochondria to be broken down by beta oxidation, most are metabolized in the gut or processed in the liver.
Maybe he's sliding down the fat scale a bit?
I clipped a few quotes for Gordon from the latest version. He doesn't mention aflatoxin in the context of peanuts in the book. Mostly just labels all legumes "F" grade sources of nutrition -- a view that is pretty widely countered by the human experience.
http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/21/1/35.pdf
This paper is a killer, because white rice intake was positively correlated with veggie intake. You'd think it would be OK to eat white rice if you eat a lot of veggies, but apparently not.
Paul has a serious problem here. White rice has had most of its manganese removed, and manganese deficiency causes diabetes. Does he know that? Probably not, because the definitive paper was only published last year. Until then it was not known how high fat diets cause diabetes, and now we know they do it by lowering manganese.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23372018
The authors of this paper had previously shown in mice with hereditary iron overload, that the excess iron stops manganese from getting into mitochondria, so the enzyme MnSOD doesn't work. This caused diabetes, which means it's the iron-manganese ratio that matters. MnSOD is very important. The hydrogen peroxide it produces goes to the nucleus and activates an anti-ageing programme. Manganese is probably the micronutrient above all others which prevents age related disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18067683
BUT Paul thinks manganese is toxic so you shouldn't supplement it. Any other supplement but not that. His diet is quite high in meat, which has a very high iron-manganese ratio and is associated with diabetes, and in saturated fat which also raises the iron-manganese ratio.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11697763
Improper handling of any food can result in toxicity, that's why you shouldn't eat rare pork.
150-minute postprandial blood sugar reading after both rice and potato in my meal at the #PerfectHealthRetreat and it remains elevated. Was 101 prior to meal. Don't know 1-hour postprandial level, but I'm guessing over 150. Was it the rice? Seems plausible.
I went and looked at his list of recommended supplements. Good heavens.
Isn't that good?
I'd rather having someone say that my guidelines have changed because I know more about this or that than someone who just dismisses new information. Isn't science about learning, re-evaluating and evolving? In this area, there are too many marketeers cloaked as dietitians that refuse to update their knowledge.
In the beginning of your post you show that his recommendations have "evolved" by showing his levels of recommended macronutrients his slightly varied. Based on that, you then conclusively state "[u]ltimately, there is little science or basic human cultural evidence, to back up much of what is put forth in the books." What's the basis for that statement? Paul's reputation is that his recommendations are routinely based in science and ancestral health. His books have hundreds and hundreds of cites to scientific literature.
Thanks
but everything about the so-called AHC now seems so gimmicky and
fake-out. I was down the Paleo rabbit-hole twice in my life. First in
2004 in its purer 'anthropological' form, but the diet (high protein,
high veg, no grains legumes or dairy) was too impractical. Then again
around 2009-2011 when Jaminet, Kresser, Masterjohn and co. seemed to be
on a major roll, and the high-fat mantra was a lot easier to swallow
than the Eaton/Cordain original version. But there were always
inconsistencies: the discordance from any documented ancestral diet, the
contradiction by Kitavans, Blue Zones, cohort trials, and the selective
use of correlation != causation except when it's a message the AHC
wants to hear, etc. Eventually the cognitive dissonance was just too
much, and I had to let go of the world-view. Thus I'm not surprised by
the accumulating evidence that 'authority figures' within the AHC are
having to backpeddle or significantly revise the circa 2010 consensus
version.
I'm really thankful to have left behind both the food
obsession, and the dogma. I think Michael Pollan was more right than
wrong in boiling things down to, "eat real food, mostly plants, and not
too much". There's a lot that's wrong with the world, including our
dysfunctional food system, but the Paleo/AHC/PHD/Low-Carb/Whatever are
not part of the solution. At this point, they're part of the problem.
Do you seriously think his high fat diet that excludes legumes and oats is "ancesteral'
Apparently legumes are "Toxic". Maybe his views need to "evolve". Or maybe he needs to concede that his diet recommendations are based on cherry picked studies and his own intuition.
Somehow I've managed to include it in my slow cooked stews for the last several years without being overloaded with toxins. White refined rice is somewhat similar to refined sugar. Wouldn't someone who is interested in "whole foods" recommend the less refined brown rice?
Unfortunately, where evidence is concerned, Jaminet strains out the gnat but gulps down the proverbial camel. There is way more evidence which Paul ignores than science which he chooses to heed. Can you say cherry picking and pet theory?
he doesn't seem to share my perception of his selective application
... no mention of blockages / arterial health?
Charles, have you come across / seen any more valid info on Seth? Has Paul seen an autopsy's results? Do we know for sure Roberts did not have some kind of congenital defect like Jim Fixx?
... I somehow doubt "ROS" is on the death certificate
When Jimmy started his first safe starch nonsense, Paul ran with it to Mercola "debating" Rosedale. This was when Emily Deans delisted PHD from her blog roll (eh ... she still has MDA on there last I checked).
Of course anyone publicly speculating on the commercial success (dunno how successful) of PHD will be accused of jealousy.
With alcohol, he seems to go quite far in detailing how to imbibe and mitigate potential negatives (e.g. don't consume PUFA with it, etc). How about not imbibing? This is his view on fructose. 25g is his limit for toxicity. 1-3 drinks per day = about 15 to 45g alcohol.
Isn't that good? <<<
It would be if that's what is going on. You have two tracks in the IHC -- (1) those who stick to principals despite evidence (new or long pre-existing) to the contrary or (2) those who tweak based on "new" evidence (regardless of whether it is new to everyone else or just them).
Paul has sealed his fate as a #1 early on. So if his fundamentals are the same, there should be no budging on the diet.
Tossing in a bunch of divergent ideas and dietary models--that work in their individual contexts--isn't necessarily the hallmark of a bulletproof solution. As a matter of fact, it often requires cherry picking and selective analysis where other aspects of those same solutions, that may actually be useful, are discarded entirely.
So, let us partially emulate pacific islander style food consumption, but make it rather high fat and rid ourselves of those toxic grains.
Let us take some healthy habits from the blue zones, but then suddenly defer into an entirely digressive study of ideal fat and carbohydrate intake as it correlates with longevity in Europe. Because that's when correlations is causation, just because. Oh, and then mash the two together--but make sure the beans and legumes stay out--and we're sure this is going to work. The minor details, we can tweak.
This is the sort of insane hyperbole that leads to eating disorders and stupid diets.
Agreed. [And I've always respected Nathan Pritikin for rejecting
veganism on just this basis; he advised a pint of milk (skim, of course) & one serving of meat (lean, of course) per day, precisely to
avoid the need to swallow a calcium pill plus a B₁₂ pill).
But my question was rather about what your advice would be with
regard to Mn supplementation for someone who was not
eating a diet that supplied adequate amounts of everything needed. Such as someone who was currently eating a hi-fat low-carb diet—
[~50-100g/day carbs]. What amount of Mn supplementation do you think is advisable for such a person to avoid the insulin problems associated with hi-fat low-carb diets? 5mg/day? 10mg/day? 15?? [this isn't a trick question Jane—you've seen a lot of studies on this topic and I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you think an adequate daily intake would look like.]
Jimmy also said that his wife has been hungry on the (ad libitum!) Perfect Health Diet. Those two have either really screwed up their bodies or his wife is the brain-washed robot I suspect she is and is walking around quacking "Carbs make me hungry!" like a parrot.
Yeah anti-flu vax, anti-vitamin K shots for babies, anti-gmo Chris Kresser, the "Healthy skeptic" - LOL.
All of that x-fit must help Dr. Deans mentally hurdle that level of cognitive dissonance.
Air pollution as a causal factor in cardiovascular disease is now under serious scientific scrutiny.
All those of you who are apt to succumb to the absurd food fearmongering of the low carb and paleo movement better get your gas masks on if you live in a metropolis and toxin avoidance is the name of the game.
Maybe Don never built the same level of commercial / "social" dependencies and network before reverting ...
50-minute postprandial blood sugar reading after Thursday night meal at #PerfectHealthRetreat. That lower blood sugar reading I got after lunch earlier today seems to be an anomaly. Seems the starch is still producing a negative blood sugar response.
EVERYTHING that Paul says with regard to TC, HDL, LDL-P, LDL-C goes against JM and his ketogenic diet. What will he do?
I can see the point with childhood epilepsy or perhaps metastatic cancer, but these guys are tickling the dragon with every meal.
1. Imaginary ailments - consult total stranger who has internet blog
2. Actual ailments - deny they exist; when denial is no longer possible, argue that they are markers of good health
Not trolling, genuinely looking for ways to get back to at least zone-esque macro ratios, and it seems like folks here may have been down this same path.
My symptoms differed from yours: sleepiness was the predominant one, and a welcome one- these days I get insomnia after 2 day on low carb.
Milk took 6 months; getting used to one level of skim milk powder for a week or more then adding one more spoon per day
Every time I tried to go faster my results became ... ahem ... "suboptimal"
*I had more serious complications, like scary heart palpitations, but I was smart enough to eat some carbs at that point rather than consult a chiropractor or acupuncturist about what to do about it.
In those papers, it took quite a while for the glucose to normalise, and the lipids took even longer.
Mr Perfect health diet also likes to cite some obscure magazine article about how their diet was "greasy" to justify his recommendations.
This was some obscure magazine article from 1996. It surely overrides all the previous observations of the Okinawan diet.
Another hilariously put together argument by the low carb/high fat tribe is that Okinawan is the "land of pork". And how they ate double or even triple the amount of pork that the Japanese ate.
From what I have read they were known for their consumption of pigs during their celebratory holidays. Nothing I have read suggests they all lived through the 1920's on pork chops for breakfast and dinner as some would have you try to believe.
From all the diet surveys that I have read from Japan in that era, Okinawan was indeed the land of the pork. They had double almost triple the consumption of pig meat and fat. What they failed to mention was that Japan averaged about 20 grams of daily pork whilst the Okwinawans averaged around 60 grams of pork daily. Hardly a "high saturated fat diet".
'...The obtained results indicated that hibiscus and mate contained lower levels of aluminum (272 ± 19 μg/g and 369 ± 22 μg/g, respectively) as referred to black tea (759 ± 31 μg/g) or green tea (919 ± 29 μg/g) and suggested that mate drinking could be a good dietary source of essential micronutrient manganese (total content 2223 ± 110 μg/g, 48.1% leached to the infusion). It was also found that the infusion of hibiscus could supply greater amounts of iron (111 ± 5 μg/g total, 40.5% leached) and copper (5.9 ± 0.3 μg/g total, 93.4% leached) as compared to other infusions.'
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/796/art%253A10.1385%252FBTER%253A78%253A1-3%253A271.pdf?auth66=1413623826_408203dd5e71c814cc7c3ece84a306c5&ext=.pdf
healthy Asians' you speak of are not nearly as healthy as the Asians studied by
McCarrison 100 years ago, who did not eat white rice but whole wheat.
Their dietary habits--and health--changed substantially around the time of economic prominence, circa-80s and early 90s.
What's your argument anyway? That a high starch diet is harmful without being compensated for with heavy activity and hypocaloric intake?
Here's an account of McCarrison's work. It was published in 1938, and remains IMO the best book on nutrition ever written.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203cat/020301wrench/02030100frame.html
Thanks.
maybe, MAYBE after your HbA1c shows up as significantly worse than normal; As I understand it (this is NOT my specialty) some studies have found even outright diabetics don't get large benefits from monitoring BG.
I don't know if the Bernstein methods which some diabetics swear by have been skeptically analyzed
as far as information goes, more is not necessarily better.
Dairy and whole grains make a good combination because dairy is very low in copper, and the saturated fat can inhibit copper absorption. Whole grains have good amounts of copper, and also phytic acid, which improves copper absorption.
Gordon
If you're determined to have cow's milk, there is Lactaid (which I have never tried) or pills (which I have tried but which did not work for me).
Introduce reasonable amounts of fiber rich starchy vegetables and you won't see particularly bad blood sugar spikes. You should recover the storage of pre-formed insulin pretty quickly. The human body is quite adaptable to varying diets.
Yes, my guts are low in bacteria. Two different tests have said as much. Tummy trouble was one of the main reasons for having gone paleo in the first place, and it worked for a few years. For a few more years I was able to eat fewer and fewer foods. I'm hoping that adding carbs back to my diet will help some in that respect. Fermented foods and home made yoyurt, etc, have not.
I should mention that I'm possibly celiac. No tga test ever came back positive, but the first time I was tested was several years after going grain free. A genetic cascade test suggested that I have the genes for it. I haven't had a biopsy done, but I have no interest in having one.
I have no anxiety surrounding carbs at all. I've never been dogmatic about diet in the slightest. I went paleo to try to resolve a large number of real issues I have or had. At this point, I have a whole host of other issues that I want to see if I can resolve, to a degree, by adding more starch to my diet.
I'm not a hypochondriac, either, fwiw. I don't try to fix imaginary issues - I have plenty of real ones verifiable via bloodwork, to spend any time trying to fight make believe things. Just figured I'd mention that - I'm 100% completely anti-woo.
All of this said, I haven't seen any responses along the lines of "oh, yeah, that's normal, I had to add rice back a quarter cup at a time" or whatever. Maybe the best strategy, and the irony of this isn't lost on me, is to follow the PHD for a few weeks/months and then ramp up from there.
Thanks very much for all the input :-)
up-and-running. Low-carb intakes result in a functional atrophy of the glucose-using enzyme inside the cell—an evolutionary adaptive response to spare the protein catabolism which would otherwise occur to produce the glucose still required by the brain and other obligate glucose-using tissues. George Cahill explained that it'll take some time for anyone leaving a low-carb diet to get things back in shape in order to be able to handle the greater carb intake:
"A second process occurs [to spare nitrogen], namely a functional atrophy of the glucose-using enzyme in the cell so even if insulin should rise [i.e, as it will with the now greater carb intake], a diminished glucose uptake persists until the enzyme hexokinase has been resynthesized. These phenomena explain the diabetic-type glucose tolerance in any individual deprived of dietary carbohydrate." [George Cahill. Physiology of Insulin in Man. Banting Memorial Lecture. Diabetes. Dec. 1971. Vol.20; No. 12 [p.796]
So true. Especially when so much of the information out there is conflicting. NK cures diabetes! 100% starch diet cures diabetes! Going totally rawsome cures diabetes! Fruity 811 cures diabetes. Fructose, grains, sugar, meat, oils, toxins, etc.
But obviously even quantifiable data points like BG and rising temp can be problematic if you never get a "good" reading, or if they become focal points for paranoia.
I'm not that way. I'm just worried that I might actually be close to harming myself, and would rather not. OTOH, I'd rather not jab my finger if I don't have to.
Is there any real value in the 6 hour bg tests? I've read that even they can be highly misleading unless they outright show diabetes.
I'm trying to figure out if any of these people are raising children or have real jobs since on a week night I'm lucky to get 5 or 6. I keep waiting for Paul to post about the new rules about sleeping less now that he has a baby.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Acarbsanity.blogspot.com+blood+glucose+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=daRCVPzVLcSC8QfJiYCADw
The Andrew Kim articles I've read didn't trigger my skepticality but as I'm limiting my internet time I haven't delved deeply on his site.
Good talking with you and good luck - my big project was put on hold for a few days but starts again tomorrow & I'll probably only lurk again for a while.
Randle, for instance, put 5 normal healthy young men on a low-carb intake (<50g/d, with fat & protein unrestricted) for only five days; as compared to their pre-intervention values, they showed elevated fasting BG levels, elevated post-glucose load peak BG rises, elevated FFA's, and even elevated fasting insulin levels. On day 6, the men returned to their previous "normal diet" ( >200g/d carbs)— but things internally weren't rapidly returned to normal:
"In our experiments five days of carbohydrate deprivation led to abnormalities of plasma glucose, NEFA, and insulin during a glucose-tolerance test which persisted for at least two weeks after a return to a normal diet...After resumption of the normal diet the plasma concentrations slowly returned towards normal, but definite abnormalities were still found after fourteen days, and some may have persisted for thirty-five days." [P.J. Randle & C.N. Hales. Effects of Low-Carbohydrate Diet and Diabetes Mellitus on Plasma Concentrations of Glucose, Non-Esterified Fatty Acid, and Insulin During Oral Glucose-Tolerance Tests. The Lancet.Apr.13, (1963) p.790-94]
Are you taking anything for the stomach issues such as probiotics?
There
is a long story about how my husband and I "cured" our son's stomach
issues which I won't bore you with. However, the one thing that we
swear by is a particular probiotic. We needed to find a probiotic
WITHOUT bifidus - easier said than done. We found Nature's Way
Primadophilus Reuteri. We use the 5 billion CFU and adjusted the dose
for our son so that now takes 3 pills at breakfast. (Too much
probiotics will cause stomach upset.) I also make a 24 hour fermented
yogurt for him using Dannon Natural whole milk yogurt as it does not
contain bifidus.
I can give you more details of why we've
eliminated the bifidus if you're interested, but I really wanted to
share this idea with you to see if it's of any help.
Please see my comment to you below.
I told a friend about my experience with vitamin D and she shared it with her arthritic mother who is also feeling substantially better within weeks of discontinuing the D. If you look on-line, though, vitamin D is frequently recommended as a treatment although a recently concluded study showed no efficacy.
Thanks for the link, Charles.
I was making my own yogurt for a while. I used gi prostart, which IIRC doesn't have bifidus. It's from an scd friendly company for scd folks, and IIRC scd says no bifidus. I can't remember why though. In any case, I had the same results. Sometimes it was great, others it was not. Same batches with both the veggies and the yogurt. I've been meaning to try making yogurt again, though.
Evelyn is a part time blogger - not a nutrition researcher.
Obesity is a natural consequence of affluence. It has little to do with "Western" influences. It is a matter of more calories in and fewer calories out.
Obesity was relatively common amongst wealthy Thais long before there was any noticeable Western influence on diet. In the ethnic Chinese community being fat was considered a sign of prosperity.
"What's your argument anyway? That a high starch diet is harmful without being compensated for with heavy activity and hypocaloric intake."
Ancel Keys came to exactly that conclusion in the 1950s. He discovered the Cretans were healthy because they suffered chronic food shortages and had a physically demanding lifestyle. In other Mediterranan countries people who ate similar diets but had abundant food and less physical activity (eg Capri) were much less healthy.
Virtually every legitimate nutrition researcher in the world thinks that refined grains and naked starches are very unhealthy.
We did find the SCD to be helpful to an extent. It did not fully eliminate the bad symptoms (bloating, diarrhea, malabsorption) but it stopped the decline he was on. His pediatrician recommended a pediatric GI doctor. My husband is the one who has done the research and after what he had been reading he said we were not going to have our son go through the tests for ulcerative colitis, Crohn's, celiac, etc. The GI doctor had heard of the SCD and some of her colleagues used it but she, apparently, wasn't interested and so we decided to figure out what to do on our own.
With further research we determined that his small intestines were passing undigested food to the large intestines. The large intestines could not process it and that caused the inflammation and malabsorption. We decided to try probiotics without bifidus. We eliminated bifidus because it is already present in the small intestines and hinders the growth of the other flora there. It's more complicated than that but this is the distilled version. :)
One note of possible interest to you: bifidus is a sub-family of lactose bacteria so if you're lactose intolerant you'll probably want to eliminate (or at least not increase) bifidus.
We've created a dropbox account to share this info with you. The first page is just general notes and the second page has two links to papers that may be helpful.
My apologies for any lack of clarity in my writing. Morning is much better than evening for thinking and writing for me, but I wanted you to have this as we have been so happy with the results.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7xpuphohbd1dyus/Scientific%20Proof%20for%20the%20Risks%20Associated%20with%20Bifidus.doc?dl=0
McCarrison like many of his contempraries suffered from Shangri-La Syndrome.Tthey believed (in the absence of any solid evidence) that the Himalayan region was inhabited by people with exceptional health and longevity. The harsh reality was dicovered post WW2. Dr John Clark spent a year living ith the Hunza and found they had poor health are far shortter lifespans than generally believed.
http://biblelife.org/Hunza%20-%20Lost%20Kingdom%20of%20the%20Himalayas.pdf
The world's top health researchers such as David Jenkins now all recommend very low fat diets high in fruit and vegtables with little or no dairy, eggs or meat.
What does this have to do with Evelyn's status as a blogger or researcher? The post she did on the Thais was actually a very simple post with most of the facts grounded in . . . wait for it . . . the actual study. Yes, research that showed otherwise about what was very unhealthy and what wasn't, and it wasn't their use of jasmine rice. Try again.
Next: Ancel Keys was never nearly as reductive and every legitimate researcher has found that refined starches almost always correlate with additives and fats that turn them into hyper-palatable, caloric surplus food items, some of them being far worse than the 'naked starch'. But o teh white rice!
"Yes, people were just eating plain dry loafs of white bread with noting else, all day long, and getting sick." - Said no researcher, ever.
Like I could give a damn . . . He could be Chupacabra and that still wouldn't change the fact that he's provided a much more grounded view of the evidence than certain other fringe nutters. Of course, he has his bias, but he doesn't have to resort to extreme levels of mental gymnastics and apologies in order to support that bias.
He also mentions an outbreak of beriberi among military personell which was terminated in short order by replacing some of the white rice with atta (whole wheat flour). Machine polished white rice is not much better than white flour from roller mills, which were introduced at about the same time and also removed all of the bran and germ.
What do you mean by 'caloric surplus'? If people can't stop themselves from eating too many calories, there must be some abnormality in their satiety system. And indeed, there is. Stephan Guyenet's group has found inflammation in the hypothalamus of obese people and high fat fed rodents. Inflammation means damage, and in diabetes damage means iron overload. Well apparently obese people also have iron overload.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21189275
Obviously, the 'hyperpalatable, caloric surplus food items' you mention have had most of their manganese removed. The white flour has extra iron added. In the US, even white rice has extra iron. If you tried to design foods that would cause a diabesity epidemic, you couldn't do better.
Ask the person above who I was addressing on this whole issue. He's the one who brought up the statement regarding the Cretes doing better than their counterparts due to food scarcity and low caloric intake.*
Again:
"Yes, people were just eating massive quantities of plain dry white bread with noting else, all day long, and getting sick," said no researcher, ever.
I have nothing against whole grains, but to the whole discussion taking place above, the claim that Thais, or Chinese, or whowever else, suffered ill health solely due to white rice, is taking things a bit too far. There are a dozen other factors that are at play.
And you might want to observe another factor within the lines in his post. Refined starch/grains aren't an issue so long as one is active and exercising. Although, according to him, grains are bad anyway, but I think you're familiar with that argument as you've taken that one up with him.
I basically went from someone who was highly active (jiu jitsu, hiit cardio, strength training) to someone who can do a light exercise and yoga. Even walking the dogs can have unexpected results. I've had a bazillion tests done, multiple cortisone injections, nerve blocks, and an epidural. I'm looking at another epidural very soon for "pseudo-sciatica" and unexplained neuropathy, which basically means that whatever they're treating, they can't find on an MRI - "well, you have mild to moderate osteoarthritis in most joints - maybe that's it". This doesn't surprise me, since it took 2 years and 3 MRIs for them to figure out I has a major SLAP tear in my left shoulder. I digress, though.
If all I have to do is skip the vit D for a while, Id' be over the moon. I've certainly stopped for periods of a week or so when travelling, etc, but like you say, CW is that it is supposed to help, and usually travelling really screws me up. I have been taking vit D for *years* with various dosage strategies, like mega-dosing once a week (70-100k iu) or half that a couple times a week, and on and on.
How long did it take you and others to see results? It won't bother me at all to not have to worry about taking it, or paying for it. Honestly, I can't think of a single thing that taking vitamin D has fixed, other than insufficient levels in my blood. It's more like "Well at least I have that under control. Now at least I shouldn't get rickets." My Dr. is kind of woo-ish (and paleo friendly). Where I live, though, it's hard to find anyone who isn't a fan of the woo. At least he hasn't suggested crystal healing...
I did a round of rifaximin - my Doc wanted to have me on it for 3 weeks, but insurance would only cover 2 weeks, so we split the diff and did 3 weeks at a lower dosage (there's no way I could afford that on my own, IIRC). Results were somewhat positive, but short lived.
Tummy stuff is very hard to get information on, since the amount of woo, even in solid information, is off the charts. Many times I've been reading along in a very sane sounding document, only to take a strange turn off into woo woo land where what I'd reading could have been written by Hulda Clarke. It's always very nice to get real world feedback. Thanks again.
Indeed: I recall wondering: hell,—why stop at merely "perfect? Why refrain from the usual temptation to—as the phrase goes:kick it up a notch—by adding the other hyperbolic modifiers that have always been popular in the history of our American quackosphere,viz., promising not merely perfect health but health guaranteed to be perfect, radiant & joyous!
this is the best comment on rice and asians in these comments so far. this is coming from a westerner who lived in a chinese household for 7 years and speaks mandarin.
what is gluconeogenesis? do you need amino acids for it? can you get them by consuming adequate protein?
Let me guess, the Chinese take out around the corner is a good stand-in for 'traditional Chinese food' and the phrase De Novo Lipogenesis is nothing in light of the almighty 'the Chinese I know'.
Yes, to the balance scale metaphor of the mind's eye!
Also, to be fair to the "no added oil, not even olive" crew, ala Esselsyn. He's actually gotten people better the whole way and it applies well to those who are already in cardiometabolic trouble. His zealotry on the mantra probably gets misplaced because--and I might be wrong about this--he's found it very difficult to get people to really control their fat intake, so he tells those who have endothelial dysfunction to avoid it outright until recovery. Next to what I'm about to bring up, it's actually some of the most sane advice one can give to those who are dealing with serious atherosclerosis to the point of regular angina.
So, the story of the real nuttery. Well, with the vegan crew, the real nuttery is this stuff that emerges from the raw camp that shares so much more with the Arnold Ehret society and all this mumbo-jumbo that's fast becoming a slippery slope towards breatharianism. Just a few days back, I saw this response on a vegan friend's thread where the commenter was literally going on about how we're only suited to consuming very limited amounts of 'juicy fruit' and anything more than a few hundred calories of the stuff would impede our longevity and hyperstilumate the immune system. He added that he's had personal experience of this since having more than 500 calories of juicy fruit will make him unwell.
Yeah . . . Now these guys could join forces with the Kerrgold Keto Krew and pursue an all out war on human metabolism.
"...we're only suited to consuming X..." or: "Let's eat only what we were meant to eat"—as based on what?—what our ancestors ate?
A few items obtainable neither in our jungle past nor out on the savanna:
Salmon, canola oil, flax oil [sorry, Mr Cordain]
Olive oil, pasta, parmesan cheese [sorry, Mr Keys]
Mexican Cokes & Häagen-Dazs [sorry, Mr Peat]
Bacon & eggs [sorry, Mr Atkins]
Beans & rice [sorry, Mr Barnard & McDougall]
Trying to eat only what we were allegedly suited for or meant to eat? Good luck with that!
Expect to hear plenty of: "Hey honey—what the hell's for supper???!!
Weekdays, there's not any wiggle room at all. I'm up at 5:30 most days, am at work until at least 6:00 PM. Have to make dinners and lunches and help with home work and house work when I get home. I'm lucky to get everything done with by 10:00 or 10:30 PM, and then try to get an hour of studying in if possible. Sometimes there's no time for even that, like the days I don't get home until 9:00 PM, or when there's after hours emergency work, or scheduled maintenance, etc. There is *zero* TV or silly fooling around for me during the week. Yes, lots of people I work with play grabass all night, drinking, and ignoring reality, so I know that some folks *do* waste a lot of time. Me, I have have responsibilities goals. I can't ask my wife to deal with more of the work since she already has 2 jobs and is going to school full time.
Yes, obviously if I knew for certain that I'd die if I couldn't get another hour of sleep each day, I'd be able to skip my AM joint mobility/yoga, or whatever. Until that day, though, I have responsibilities and things I need to get done.
Again, people who make money by spreading harmful misinformation to credulous people are fair game.
Your anecdote definitely beats studies. Sure.
"sorry- you ignorant. you troll- i help you come out from under the bridge. i not jackychan, trollman." - Lol x 2
Interesting.
"i am doggie waving hi named weilasmith. with sunglasses. and cap to side with swag. you got lame pentagram fake thingy with wings. poser cool, man. not authentic. very hard rock- aka: old :(" - Lol x 3
Words can't describe how much that one made my day . . . You're okay, skid mark. Never change.
The ANS is largely responsible for deciding the content of American school lunches, the training of dietitians and the official dietary guidelines It's influence is orders of magnitude greater than Jimmy Moore.
foods into "legal" and "illegal" categories with out any clinical
evidence or scientific rationale .
The ONLY scientific paper published on SCD doesn't show any benefits.
The ONLY evidence based dietary treatment for irritable bowel is the low FODMAPS diet developed by the gastroenterology department at Monash University.
http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/
Bifidobacteriaare actually the most beneficial class of gut bacteria. They should be encouraged by eating fruits and vegetables containing fermentable carbohydrates.
Bioflms are completely normal and are found on every body surface (skin, teeth, gut).
SIBO is an imaginary disease that is not recognised by mainstream gastroenterology. People with irritable bowel disease usually have LOWER levels of bacteria in the small intestine.This is because their food spends much less time in the small intestine.
Lactose intolerance is not an issue because dairy
"foods" are intrinsically unhealthy and should be avoided.
I also had a non-seasonal flair of eczema. Or rather, the winter eczema never cleared up this spring, but I started Weight Watchers in January and the lower level of fat in my diet may have contributed. However, I got to the maintenance phase of WW and increased my olive oil around the time I stopped the D, so I'm not sure which is the contributor.
I had low normal vitamin D levels because I am a careful blond living in southern California. My father has taken a bisphosphonate for osteoporosis, but has never had a fracture (my mom is a jock) and that influenced my decision. I really did not need to supplement, but I decided that I should follow the doctor's advice and not treat myself even though I only used to prescribe D for nursing home patients. Doctors get sucked into woo too, way more than they should.
You are misinformed. Clark studied the Hunza long after their health had started to deteriorate. If you had read the book you would know this happened about 100 years ago, and was due to episodes of starvation following a doubling of the population. At their healthiest there were only 6,000 of them. Today there are 44,000.
Eating fruit and avoiding fodmaps can be difficult, and some of the info surrounding fodmaps is questionable. Like oxalate lists, *many* fodmaps lists disagree, and lots of foods (coconut?) have been listed and then de-listed. Which fruits do you recommend?
I'm not sure wtf to think about sibo. My Dr is big into it, and the gastro I saw also suggested it, but I have seen numerous "debunkings" of it online. In either case, when chasing it, I saw no improvement, for the most part, so I stopped worrying about it.
"The goal here is not to control blood sugar with medication or insulin but to identify problem foods that provoke blood sugar and insulin, thereby impairing weight-loss efforts. To do this we check blood sugar immediately prior to a meal and then 30 to 60 minutes after the start of the meal. Aim for no change in blood sugar when you take these two readings. If the after-meal value jumps up to, say, 138 mg/dl, look at that meal and identify the carbohydrate source that was too much for you, and then either slash your portion size or eliminate that food. (In the meantime, go for a walk, ride a stationary bike for 20 minutes, or engage in some other light activity to drop your blood sugar back to its starting level.)"
I'm pretty sure that the dumbest of Americans (and that's pretty dumb) aren't under the misapprehension that Cheetos and Dr. Pepper are healthy foods, so the ANS seems pretty impotent, but there are plenty of morons with heart disease putting butter in their coffee thanks to Jimmy Moore. It's like you think he should have more blood on his hands to merit a mention on a blog devoted to the diet wars.
Remember, unlike measly studies *and* experiences of others, he's actually lived in Taiwan . . . for seven years . . . and he can speak Mandarin.
Moreover, he's got style and swagger! He's Weil-a-Smith! Or is the last part pronounced 'Shmit'? I do hope I'm not getting this wrong. Can't have that!
If I had a doom laden atherosclerosis diagnosis and told that all the stents and statins in the world would do little to help .... I'd be round at Caldwell Esselstyn's office faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
Now K2 with Calcium and D3 makes for a good combination, but dosage would have to be realistic and would also depend quite a bit on the individual.
The ONE THING that my husband discovered is what WORKED.
Maybe you can share your REAL LIFE experience in dealing with your own gut/intestinal issues. I'm curious to know what worked for you. Thanks in advance.
I'm skeptical that fermented foods and probiotic foods and drinks are valueless, but I do admit that I wonder if things like sauerkraut are a poor choice for adding bacteria to a depleted gut. I haven't got the *slightest* idea what grew in the batches of the stuff I grew. It was tasty, but clearly it didn't fix me.
It is nice to have input from folks outside of the paleo/scd/gaps/whatever echo chambers. I really do truly appreciate the info you've provided.
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