The Kruse Missile Defense System
I'm hoping this will be the last post I'll have make addressing the phenomenon that is Jack Kruse MD,DDS aka Leptin Man, Dr. Duvet, Quack Frost, Quilt, Digisurgeon etc.etc. According to Melissa McEwen over on Paleo Hacks, there are some bigwigs in the community who are concerned enough about this that they are planning to address it in concert publicly soon. I say, the sooner the better. Kurt Harris recently informed us of the severing of any ties that may have existed between Jack and Mark Sisson. This is encouraging to learn. However until then there are those who are inferring motive on some of his more outspoken detractors such as Melissa and myself and countless others who haven't devoted entire blog posts to the matter.
One of the more common defenses of Kruse I've seen lately, particularly following PaleoFX, is that Kruse is a genius and those who don't get him simply don't understand his brilliant ideas. They are often accused of not reading Jack's genius manifestos. Sound familiar? I've coined/spoken of this "baffling with bullshit" (BWBS) phenomenon here before. Use enough big words, sound knowledgeable/comfortable enough using them, and for good measure have a few letters after your name, and bingo!
I think Dean Dwyer summed it up best:
I think Dean Dwyer summed it up best:
Ah Jack Kruse. I must admit I am a huge fan of this man. But let me give you some perspective because he is a polarizing figure. Just to clarify, anyone who is looking to shake up any old establishment is going to be considered polarizing so I don't say that as an insult to the man.
He is a damn smart dude. And he knows he is a damn smart dude. And he knows he knows more than almost everyone he is talking to. And that's the rub. That is what throws people off. They get caught up in their own insecurities and in my opinion feel inferior around him. So instead of trying to understand seek to undermine him instead.
Luckily for me I have no such insecurities around him because the man knows stuff and thinks on a level that makes my head hurt. So I see a MASSIVE opportunity to learn a lot from him. As he said to me one night while we were chatting, "Dude I'm a neurosurgeon." While I must admit I never thought I would see "dude" and "neurosurgeon" in the same sentence, he is right. He is a freaking neurosurgeon. He runs in a world I will never run in and as such, he has insights that I will never discover on my own.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. I tried to comment on Dwyer's blog but it went into the internet IONOsphere apparently. Not wanting to make a nuisance of myself, I didn't bother to track it down, but if I'm being preemptively censored, wowzers is all I can say to that! In any case the comment was of the notion that Dwyer has been BWBS. He seemed to hang firm on that note, see his comment exchange with Karen P.
When I read comments like Dean's about Kruse they are insulting. Not because he named me, or anyone for that matter, but it's the flipside of Gatewing's schtick. Dean is humbly acknowledging that Jack is much smarter than he is, and he is unqualified to question his science. However because Dean sees Jack as brilliant, he's somehow smarter than not just Dean but everyone else in the room including any who might dare criticize. Dean is making assumptions about others' level of intelligence and knowledge. To Dean, if he reads this, I would say this: If you're not qualified to critically assess Kruse's theories, try not to infer that others are in similar intellectual positions. Best to stick to lauding Kruse if you so desire, but best not to judge others and imply that they are too insecure in their inferior intellects to admit their inferiority. How do you know if their intellect is inferior and/or how secure they are in their knowledge anyway? They might just possess a superior intellect to yours. I'm pretty sure I do. Does that insult you? I'm not sure which attitude is more insulting, Dean's or Gatewing's. The latter being the "I'm a smart guy -- Yaley at that! -- and even I don't understand this so you can't either" act. In any case, this tactic seems to be the most effective of the Kruse Missile Defense System.
Another major component of the KMDS are the sentiments expressed like those of an Eric S posting over on Paleo Hacks: The "well it can't hurt" defense. I would say that with the Leptin Reset, there wasn't much that could hurt. Try the BAB, no snacking and candlelight after dark thing -- if it works for you, great. If not, no harm no foul! However I would say that even there Kruse was giving some bad advice. I don't care if I'm going to live an extra year or so if my core body temperature is lowered a few degrees, it is not mentally healthy for me to feel cold and unable to warm up. One of the most uncomfortable feelings for me is feeling cold and unable to warm up no matter how many blankets I pile on. So when someone complained of this on PH and Quilt replied that "good, you want to be cold", I'd dare say this is harmful advice. Clearly someone is being counseled to feel like crap in order to reap unspecified benefits once their leptin receptors have been "reset" ... whatever that means anyway. So next came the Cold Thermogenesis protocol or CT. Now this was provided free of charge complete with scientific mumbo jumbo to BWBS, and ice is not all that expensive to come by, so what's the harm here, right? Well, I'd say when you have folks on his forums talking about extremities turning blue and white and going numb and Jack saying, apparently, that his own torso has been numb for six months, Houston, we have a problem. Couple that with outrageous claims, such as Jack saying he immersed himself in a tub of ice water for 2-4 hours at a time, and I would say we're definitely stepping over the "first do no harm" line. For those not following along on Twitter and such, at TEDx last Saturday, Jack spoke of intentionally gaining 25 lbs, undergoing elective surgery (lipo or tummy tuck?) without anesthesia (or w/o post-op pain killers) and injecting MRSA! That last one I think is what has finally woken up the sleepers who have kept quiet aside from isolating themselves from Jack (BTW, I don't necessarily fault these folks based on their individual situations. My career/business does not hinge on my internet affiliations and writings, others' do).
In this day and age, the fear of infection with invasive surgery is likely greater than the fear of the procedure itself failing. As I related in the comments on my previous post, that part is personal to me because my Mom contracted a staph infection when she had total knee replacement around a year ago. This past year was an arduous one for her, including an extra hospitalization for antibiotic treatment, several courses of oral and IV AB's, removal of the implant/placing temporary spacer, 3 months of daily IV AB's and several more months waiting period to make sure the bacteria had been eradicated. I feel like I got my Mom back finally only 6 weeks ago when she had the new implant placed. Actually I'm THRILLED beyond words!!! The thought that anyone would knowingly bring a more insidious AB-resistant agent anywhere near an operating room of any sort disgusts me. And if he's making it up for sensationalism -- as I believe he is, or he's just delusional -- that disgusts me even more.
OK ... let's hope this is the final word/rant on all of this from moi :-)
But I hate the overheated feeling worse, like when I was morbidly obese and hot all the damn time.
I'd pick being low-carb chilly over overheated. :)
BUT..I am not scientist and that guy just oozes whack. I worry about the folks who think he's an authority. Like there aren't whack doctors/surgeons? My husband asked, when I ws reading one of your Kruse posts out loud to him, "Why is he both a dentist and a neurosurgeon?" I said, "I don't know. Maybe he's just not that great at either."
I know, that's tacky. But it is what I thought. Now, he's Mr. Nutrition/Diet. It's like he can't decide what to be an expert in. I would have thought neurosurgery was so demanding and time-consuming, keeping up with new techniques, etc, that he wouldn't have all this time for ice experiments, travel to talk about diet, etc.
Or is he retired? I dunno...
He just oozes strange.
Dr. Jack Kruse
Hospital: Hendersonville Medical Center
Online Appt. Scheduling:
Accepting New Patients: Y
Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX (see link)
Med. School: La State Univ Sch Of Med In New Orleans, New Orleans La 70112
Grad. Year: 1993
Correct above doctor info
Rating: 2.5 out of 5, based on 10 reviews.
Dr. Kruse has a fair overall rating, based on the helpfulness and knowledge ratings of this doctor.
Neurosurgeon-related: nervous system, cervical and lumbar spine problems, brain tumors, neurovascular problems, peripheral nerve problems, neurological surgery, brain and spinal cord tumors, skull-base surgery, brachytherapy, aneurysm surgery, epilepsy surgery, neurological surgery
# Ratings: 10
Avg Punctuality: 3.5
Avg Helpfulness: 2.3
Avg Knowledge: 2.8
Overall Quality*: 2.5
Range: 1-5 (5 is best)
* Helpfulness & Knowledge only
The following ratings and comments have not been substantiated by RateMDs.com.
2/25/12 SYSTEM: First Name changed from "John" to "Jack"
2/24/12 3 3 1 3 This Dr thinks he is GOD! He is a know it all! Terrible bedside manner, and if you are a smoker, he will absolutely refuse to help you at all! He had to redo my neck surgery because a screw bent in my neck and came loose. He blamed me for it.
Insurance: Blue Cross / Blue Shield
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9/20/11 4 4 1 1 I went to Dr. Kruse for a bulging disk thats very bad for about six months. I went into the office,took MRI Disk, MRI test results, opinions from two other dr's. The diagnosis was a bulging disk pinching nerves. Dr, Kruse came into the room, asked me what can I do for you? I said your the Surgeon. He told me that I was in the end stages of Neuropathy. I thought I was a gonner (Scared me to death). He then proceeded to tell me how I could get better in just four weeks by starting his diet and nutritional supplements. He told me it would take a 2 years to be completly well. I was lectured 30-40 minutes on his story / diet. He said he was going to give me a book. I was handed some paperwork and went to the front desk. I asked for the book and they told me you already have it. It was three pages. My back, leg, foot are still hurting. I read his website. It's about his opinions / nutrition. Hard to understand. He also told me my other Dr.s were very bad etc.. I would'nt let him treat my cat
Insurance: Blue Cross / Blue Shield
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He seems to do a lot of neck surgery so perhaps his interests evolved from dentistry -> jaw/nerves -> neursurgery. I can't blame him in a way for this part of his persona as I share that characteristic myself in a way.
Also, I wanted to say that I don't think your blog is either condescending or elitist. If I don't understand something, and I can't find info on it myself I ask. I've never gotten the impression that you thought my questions were stupid, even at the beginning when I still in LC delusion mode.
"I didn't trust this guy at all. He dressed like he was going to the disco. He told me I could 'research the internet' to get details on my condition."
The day after the TED talk, I came home and randomly open up a book by TV celebrity medical examiner, Dr. G. (Jan Garavaglia). The very page I opened to warned not to mess with MRSA in hospital settings. That is sage advice. Whether or not Dr. Kruse was able to stop MRSA in its tracks by his ancient frozen pathways is besides the point. Amateur experimentation by a practicing surgeon in a hospital setting using MRSA does not seem wise. The whole "gaining 25 pounds on SAD to prove a point" thing...don't get me started.
I am curious to see whether his book gets past the editing stage.
worked on Dean Dwyer
You cite users in the forum turning blue or numb and that is there but there are also posters reporting amazing (possibly placebo) benefits and weight loss as a result of adopting "CT." I got that the guy is out there, but is there something to the protocol?
With the whole MRSA piece he is opening himself up to exceedingly easy criticism. The monster thread on MDA does not give him credibility but what it does say is there are a ton of people out there (many of whom have been in the paleo community and simply not seen the results they are looking for) who are looking for something new and he's giving them some hope.
By this point you may have figured out that I've tried some of his ideas (nothing with MRSA!) and I know enough to know that placebo effect can play a big part of an outcome but I will say that in at least the last 20 years I don't remember a day where I was able to stick to 3 simple meals a day without frequent snacking until about a month ago, a couple weeks after I got in the cold bath for a few minutes. I've done atkins, I've done zone, I've done high carb, I've done paleo with low carb and with moderate carb, and I should have been influenced to believe that I didn't need to snack by reading all the virtues of each of those plans, but I could never make it from 7:30am to even 10:30 before I felt the overwhelming need to eat something. I ate lunch at 1 today just because I felt like it was time.
I'm not doing the extremes here - haven't used ice or done a multi-hour soak in the cold. But 15-20 minutes in a fairly chilly bath does seem to do something for appetite control that nothing else has yet.
I still would like your views to my first question in the post. If I am simply responding due to placebo then I suppose it's best I know it so that I can move on to the next fad, but objectively have you given consideration to whether there is possibly something to the cold protocol that we should all be learning about from a less "extreme" source? I fear that maybe there is something good in his work that is going to be thrown out with the bathwater, so to speak.
Pretty much sums up all of quilt's followers
Speaking of evolution again, however, what survival benefit is there to be had where "cold adaptation" leads to one expending 1000 or more calories per day to simply exist?
Whereas in the TED transcript he came cross as scatalogical, in the interview he seems very well ordered and reasonable. There's even self-effacing humor, not megalomania. (I somehow thought he was much older until I heard the interview.) The interview tells his 'story', and that explains a lot about the TED surgery. As a small example, after surgery for knee meniscus repair, he never went back and simply took out the stitches himself. Another: after losing the weight, he had a 'tell the family' moment, just like after the surgery.
Now for some scattered thoughts:
-as far as spending hours in ice or ice water, the "Ice Man" Wim Hoff has spent ~2 hours in ice, in authenticated settings, like Guinness record type of events. It's in wikipedia - and yes, wikipedia likely suffices as good enough for illustrating that.
- FWIW, backyard rabbits don't get fat over winter - and Arctic rabbits don't get fat over perpetual winter
-I have not now nor ever wanted a guru to follow. Shudder. But the experimenting thing might explain Kruise's popularity.
-From the interview, I don't get the idea he'd ever be sending a snide and insult-laden email like that one you published from Gary-what's-his-name.
- It's unclear where the surgery took place (and purported 30" of scars is not what I'd do), or how any surgeon would agree to operate without anesthesia - that would seem to violate inviolable rules. But aside from that (let's say it was in some private clinic that didn't risk others), he did only risk himself. Some people think it's crazy to go to the top of Everest. Some who go there die.
-Speaking of which, Sherpas never got to the top of Everest before Hillary and Tenzing Norgay - AFAIK, they couldn't. Did Kruise misstate that in the TED, or was the transcript wrong?
- I'd expect a lot of suppuration from the MRSA, if there was none then maybe he didn't have live culture after all.
Anyway, all I know about Kruse is from those two sources. But he doesn't bother me, and I see no reason to stop discussing him. I might even listen to another interview some time. Maybe. After all, I do like that experimenting approach.
The benefit would be getting to survive in the cold place, rather than retreating from it.
Btw, in the other, earlier thread you mentioned about times not being able to warm up despite lots of blankets. For that, there is a truly magic solution: electric heating pad :)
Also, I'd imagine that the times when the caveman was coldest was when sleeping, as the internal furnace cools down. If there is validity to Kruse's theory, then I'd guess that was how it became inculcated.
wrt to Jim Whitman's experimentation, bravo. Keep up the good work.
Well, good for that :) One thing that was clearly seen during the whole Taubes debacle was the number of MDs and PhDs on blogs who were eager to declare that Taubes was "brilliant". For goodness sakes, the Japanese weren't fat!!!! How could calories not matter? Taubes should have been laughed off the internet from the get-go, but instead was glorified by MDs and PhDs. Those who haven't repudiated their past adulation, deserve to have their own credibility in question.
Having an advanced degree, whether in any specific field or not, doesn't establish much of anything - except understanding terms.
"... if you eat a lot of meat, you get fiber"
He is a fan, of course, of Gary.
My guess is that he got the injection idea from circus artist "Ice Man" Hof. One day I saw this about Hof, being the opposite to immune stimulation:
Hof took IV endotoxin (LPS) in a med center, but didn't have the expected innate immune response. The URL is adjusted to the spot showing his vitals, with systolic BP at 167 - rather than demonstrating hypotension/shock from the endotoxin. Cortisol is an immune suppressant, and synthetic corticosteroids are used for exactly that.
Note that the TED transcript says wrongly, "[Hof] Has injected himself with bacteria, neve got infection with the cold". In actuality, Hof took not-live fragments from bacteria cell walls and apparently suppressed his immune reaction.
The complexity of this T4 virus is almost unbelievable, like a spaceship:
His results from treating himself as a case study left me with a better sense of what he is about than reading the earlier posts in his blog.
Whether his speculation that leptin is the "master hormone" based on an evolutionary mechanism is justified or not, I now understand that his clinical practice is based on hormone tests, and in particular, on the use of HsCRP levels as a measure of chronic inflammation.
This does not come across in blog posts. However, spending £1,000 or $1,000 on panels of blood tests is a very expensive process - and as for telomere lengths . . . . . .
If he ever writes a book, he will need a first-class editor. At least GT learned his trade as a journo before writing his parvum opus.
...as though the human body was an inanimate machine with no compensatory systems in place. Is there any hunger like "just spent a few hours swimming in a modestly cold pool" hunger?
Having actually experienced an involuntary unanesthetized surgery my BS detector is at code red re his experiments. Unless he's secretly an alien hybrid [and let's not rule it out :)]. Lesser mortals such as myself were at "uncle" on the first cut and "incoherent shock" shortly thereafter.
High-sensitivity C-reactive protein is within normal levels at the very onset of first ST-segment elevation acute myocardial infarction in 41% of cases: a multiethnic case-control study.
It's a registry study from ERs.
Without looking, I think I can predict that the counter-to-the-counter would be: that CRP at <2 was still not low enough. Or else that IL6 or TNF should be used, instead of CRP. So, we'll see what develops.
Also, as far as replacing hormones? That reminds me of Suzanne Sommers from a few years ago.
Haha, parvum opus nee epic tome :)
it turns out that bacon is a high protein food. "What are examples of a 50 gram protein breakfast? ... Talk to Diane Sanfillippo or grassfedgirl – they’ll tell you to just eat a shit-load of bacon."
According to USDA, 1 lb bacon = 8.71g protein. So that's over 5 pounds for breakfast.
@Paleolite: Whatever the ratios, bacon is not a good protein source. You've gobbled up a lot of fat and calories to get to 50g.
Well, that sounds fruitless but you never know... who would have guessed that bariatric surgery would (fairly quickly, IIRC) reverse diabetes in some people.
Oh btw, the last time I went out in 0F degrees and then went to a windy spot, my face muscles wouldn't work correctly as if getting unresponsive - I couldn't talk exactly right.
BTW in Kruse's defense, he's not worried about fat calories, and it's not called a Big Ass Breakfast for nothing. So one could make the case that it's a good protein source? ... sorta.
This reminds me of Jimmy Moore making sure to add butter and lots of ranch dressing to up the fat content in two dozen chicken wings (skin on) because we know chicken is notoriously low fat and high in protein.
Thanks for cite . . . . . BUT (as for so many other clinical variables)
one cannot easily discover a sampling of CRP (Hs or not) to get some idea of its population distribution. My own HsCRP varied between 0.3 and 0.7 taken over 5 years. ( I also have a slight ST glitch on the Bruce Treadmill Stress Test, but as I maxed out at 14 METs, do I give a s**t??!!)
A commenter at FreeTheAnimal recently wrote:
". . . get my hsCRP down to .005 from my current .06 with my 50F cold baths for a hour a day 7 days . . .",
"Good luck with that."
But... no, I can't eat it as a protein source.
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